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Erik
12-25-2016, 07:58 PM
Split from pictures thread:


What do you think Joseph
But all three of my grandparents Jews under the Nuremberg Laws I
Jews, Germans were sending me to the gas chambers without even thinking
Am I right or not let's think logically.
from me
person

Judaism is determined by your mother and a gentile mother everything else does not matter
And as Hitler would have killed you had diagnosed them, Hitler does not matter who the Jews in the sky that only God determines :)


I disagree. I'm not basing this off of Hitler's definition, I'm saying the ancient tradition (and what is found in the Torah quite frankly) shows that being a Jew is determined from patrilineal descent. If anyone here was going by Hitler's definition we'd be talking about phenotypes and admixture and such, which we're not.

And that's right that only YHWH determines. He alone determines, not some Rabbis ;).



Happy Hanukkah, btw.

kingjohn
12-25-2016, 08:12 PM
hittler direct paternal line was e1b1b1-v13 far a way genetically from his r1b and r1a followers in fact by paternal line he is much closer to awale :)
and autosomaly speaking the real aryans are people in pakistan and north india
not germans , french or russians ........
i am no expert on judaisem old tradition when after the sinai event
when did they follow the dad lineage ? .....
regards
Adam


p.s
do you realise that even though you paternal line is cohen you are not count as jewish .....

Power77
12-25-2016, 08:45 PM
hittler direct paternal line was e1b1b1-v13 far a way genetically from his r1b and r1a followers in fact by paternal line he is much closer to awale :)
and autosomaly speaking the real aryans are people in pakistan and north india
not germans , french or russians ........
i am no expert on judaisem old tradition when after the sinai event
when did they follow the dad lineage ? .....
regards
Adam


p.s
do you realise that even though you paternal line is cohen you are not count as jewish .....

First of all, it is not certain that Shitler was E-V13. In fact, it is much more likely that he is/was I1 or R1a-Z282 (you should check the Hutter and Hiedler Y-STR results on ysearch). And secondly, the best genetic representatives of the Ancient Aryans are not people from India, Iran or Pakistan>:(! And thirdly (and most importantly), your argument is irrelevant as to who should be considered Jewish or non-Jewish;).

Erik
12-25-2016, 08:57 PM
hittler direct paternal line was e1b1b1-v13 far a way genetically from his r1b and r1a followers in fact by paternal line he is much closer to awale :)
and autosomaly speaking the real aryans are people in pakistan and north india
not germans , french or russians ........
i am no expert on judaisem old tradition when after the sinai event
when did they follow the dad lineage ? .....
regards
Adam


p.s
do you realise that even though you paternal line is cohen you are not count as jewish .....

As just one example, in the opening chapter of the Book of Numbers, the Israelites are conducting a census. (See Numbers 1:2.) In that census, all references to genealogy are patrilineal. (E.g., Numbers 1:18: “[A]nd they declared their pedigrees after their families by their fathers’ houses.”)

Also no need to tell me or anyone else if we're Jews or not. I feel sorry for how the Rabbis talk to you, but you don't need to talk like that to me.

Erik
12-25-2016, 09:00 PM
An interesting blog post I found:


The basic laws of Judaism apply to foreigners who live among us: the Torah obligates them to fast on Yom Kippur, refrain from work on Sabbath, and destroy leaven on Pesach. Likewise, they must not blaspheme. Thus, an Egyptian foreigner was liable under Jewish law because his offense had been gross, he lived among us, and he was somewhat connected to the Jewish people through his mother.

In rabbinical tradition, Jewishness is matrilineal while clan affiliation is patrilineal. This leaves an “interfaith” family without a clan and, consequently, with no land to settle in. The assumption that “interfaith” families settled in the land of the wife’s clan is impractical: she did not inherit the land and physically had no place to live in. Women went to live in their husband’s clan’s tents; the suggestion that a man moves into the home of his wife’s clan amounts to matriarchy, which is alien to the Jewish Bedouin mind. Such an arrangement for mixed families would put intermarried women at an advantage compared to their properly married sisters: an intermarried sister would have gotten a land plot while the one married to a Jew would not. The Torah cannot mean to prescribe such an unjust arrangement.

Sages accepted patrilineal descent for all other nations. Rashi cites Kiddushin 67b: “A son follows his father” to assert the originally patrilineal descent. Also, the Pharaoh ordered the killing of Jewish boys rather than girls when he sought to extinguish the people. Rabbis counter without much proof that Jewishness was patrilineal, as it was with other nations, until the law was given on Sinai. That contradicts their other doctrine that the forefathers observed the law before it was given to the entire people; never mind that the forefathers married pagans unreservedly.

In practice, Jewish women certainly married the strangers who settled in the Land of Israel and adopted Jewish customs. They lived in towns without inheriting land plots, or they rented them. If the male stranger (ger) observed Judaism, their children were Jewish, according to their father’s new religion. If the woman married a non-observant foreigner (toshav), their children obviously followed the father’s religion. To all practical purposes, Jewishness was patrilineal.

The Jews-by-father were frowned upon: Leviticus 25:45 distinguishes between “your brother” and “someone rooted in ger’s family.” The skeptical attitude is unsurprising: landless converts-gerim were likely to take off and leave Israel along with Judaism. After a few generations, the descendants of gerim fully assimilated and often attained significant positions in Jewish society.

In rabbinical Judaism, the entry into Jewishness is religious while the exit is biological. Religious conversion is required to enter the nation, but the children of baptized Jews are considered Jewish. A more consistent definition would be, “Children of somewhat Jewish families are Jewish.” A foreign woman who marries a Jew and casts her lot with the Israelis—her children are Jewish. The self-hating Peace Now Jews cannot impart the Jewish soul into their children.

http://samsonblinded.org/blog/jewishness-is-paternal.htm

Awale
12-25-2016, 09:02 PM
And secondly, the best genetic representatives of the Ancient Aryans are not people from India, Iran or Pakistan>:.

I think you're both going at this differently though... I think KJ is basically saying people in South-Central Asia and the like are their true descendants genomically which is technically true. It would be like me taking South-Cushitic pastoral nomads who migrated into Southeast Africa and substantially contributed to groups like Tutsis and saying that I have more to do with them than Tutsis do. Sure, I'm genetically closer to what they were like but their true-blue progeny are Maasais, Tutsis et al. who aren't even Cushitic speakers... Granted, some Eastern Europeans are definitely also, to some extent, descended from the likes of Iranic speaking nomads who wandered the steppes (i.e. the Scythians).

But yeah, this is an off-topic part of the discussion anyway. I'd like to see Agamemnon come here and explain things seriously regarding the main topic... I recall him having very good counter-arguments against the sort of rabbinical arguments KJ has been sharing. He just didn't bother in the prior thread cos it would've been too much off-topic content for that thread. :P

Erik
12-25-2016, 09:12 PM
While we're waiting for my fellow Kohen Agamemnon to come in and explain on the topic of "who's a Jew?"...

Let me ask, isn't it quite distasteful how the UN passed an anti-Israel resolution just hours before Hanukkah? Quite ironic though, considering Hanukkah commemorates the rededication of the temple (located in what is now occupied East Jerusalem, ofc ;) ) and later the establishment of a Jewish state once again in Eretz Yisrael.

Awale
12-25-2016, 09:19 PM
Let me ask, isn't it quite distasteful how the UN passed an anti-Israel resolution just hours before Hanukkah? Quite ironic though, considering Hanukkah commemorates the rededication of the temple (located in what is now occupied East Jerusalem, ofc ;) ) and later the establishment of a Jewish state once again in Eretz Yisrael.

Unfortunately, Enrique-san... That's a rather political seeming tangent which would mean this thread, or that particular tangent, would need to be Atrium-ed. So lets not break off into such a tangent, please. Simply just wait up on Agamemnon or discuss something else cultural and "ethnological" relating to Jews while we wait. :P

Erik
12-25-2016, 09:24 PM
Unfortunately, Enrique-san... That's a rather political seeming tangent which would mean this thread, or that particular tangent, would need to be Atrium-ed. So lets not break off into such a tangent, please. Simply just wait up on Agamemnon or discuss something else cultural and "ethnological" relating to Jews while we wait. :P

Sure. But it's hard to separate since many relevant things with Jews tend to be seen as quite political. However, if we limit things to ethnological-type discussion, then it should be fine.

Power77
12-25-2016, 09:45 PM
BTW kingjohn, do you care to explain why Jewish Y-DNA is much more homogeneous than Jewish mtDNA:biggrin1:?

kingjohn
12-25-2016, 09:51 PM
ok you can feal what ever you wants
i dont feal jewish
mtdna h3 is extremely rare in the middleeast
mtdna h3 is also only 0.9% in non-jewish bulgarians
i was a little beat shocked to get i didn't saw that coming
i am stucked with this mtdna which no conection what so ever to the israelites
and to the sinai event i respect this relgion
but i dont feal attached to it thats all.

Agamemnon
12-25-2016, 09:55 PM
Who's a Jew? He whose children shall be Jewish.

^^This is my personal definition.

Now if you're talking in terms of (rabbinical) halakhah, a rabbi would tell you that only the offspring of a Jewish mother is a Jew. In itself, this law is an innovation which came about during the time of the Tannaim, and was really enforced only during diasporic times. Descent originally used to be patrilineal, in fact it still is in many ways (which is why Kohanim and Levyim still exist), the Samaritans and the Karaites kept the original law intact while the main Jewish stream within Judaism (rabbinical Judaism) switched to matrilineal descent. The reasons behind this are obscure, having read about this extensively I think this has to do with the sages' assumption that Jewish women were less likely to intermarry than men, I also suspect their views on kil'ayim/crossbreeding had something to do with this.

The matrilineal standard was originally designed to expand Jewishness. When the rule was promulgated by the Tannaim, children of Jewish fathers undoubtedly were Jewish; even if their mother was pagan, she was automatically "converted at marriage". You have to understand that Judaism was (and still is) a product of its time, that is to say, an ethnic religion, more akin to Odinism or Shintoism than to Christianity or Islam (dogmas you can easily join by converting). In the same way, Jewish women "lost" their religion when marrying pagans; marriage was only religious, thus these Jewish women passed through pagan rites at marriage. Their children did not adhere to Judaism. Despite this, sages pronounced those children Jewish. The rule means that even children of Jewish mothers are Jewish, all the more so children of Jewish fathers. Now the rule of maternal lineage disqualifies children of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers; that is contrary to the sages’ intention.

As time passed, the strict application of the matrilineal law proved to be a wise move as, indeed, Jewish women were less likely to find a long-term partner outside the community (they did fool around, but that's another story), Jews arguably owe their survival in exile to that law. But what worked when the Jews were stateless will not necessarily work at a time when Jews have achieved statehood.

There is no justification for claiming that someone whose great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great maternal grandmother was a Jew is more Jewish than someone who, much like kingjohn, Erik or myself, was born with the "wrong" Jewish parent(s). In fact there's a word for this: Lunacy.
If the Orthodox want to believe in that sort of stuff, fine, but they should not be allowed to gauge or determine Jewish status at an official level, especially not in the era of population genetics... Unfortunately, this is exactly what they are allowed to do, and this is going to cause a lot of problems in the near future.

Either way, even according to Orthodoxy's standards, a person with significant Jewish ancestry born to a non-Jewish mother is not, strictly-speaking, a non-Jew. There's a special category for such cases, called "Zera' Israel" (seed of Israel), but you rarely hear about it from Orthodox rabbis because they are obliged to "convert" those who fall into this category (rabbis are not supposed to be honest, they are just meant to know the Law).

kingjohn
12-25-2016, 10:02 PM
but this what the orthodox believe
and they rule so we have to follow there rules.
adam

both you and erik are autosomally part northen european
most of the chances your ancestors were celts or germans or vikings
what is the concetion of these groups to jews.

Erik
12-25-2016, 10:15 PM
but this what the orthodox believe
and they rule so we have to follow there rules.
adam

both you and erik are autosomally part northen european
most of the chances your ancestors were celts or germans or vikings
what is the concetion of these groups to jews.

Now that's just a ridiculous thing to say, bro. No one was saying that our partial European ancestry has anything to do with Israel. Besides, the most chassidic Rabbi will have ancestry from groups that have nothing to do with Israel as well, albeit in smaller amounts though.

Agamemnon
12-25-2016, 10:16 PM
Why should I, or anyone for that matter, follow the rules when the Orthodox are given a free pass with most rules? If they want to have a say, let them pay taxes and serve in the army. I have yet to see them do anything of the sort, those who do are marginal at best. As the Orthodox say, dina d'malkhouta dina, the law of the land is the law, if they do not abide by their own standards why should we?

Also, someone born to a Jewish mother and a Northern European father would be equally Northern European from an autosomal standpoint, let's picture a male who falls into this category: He would most likely be a lineal descendant of the very same Celts/Germans/Vikings/etc you mentioned. And yet the rabbis have no qualms with calling such a person a "pure Jew" (I've seen this many times in fact), despite the fact that such an individual having children would invariably lead to the introduction of Celtic/Germanic/Viking Y-DNA markers into the Jewish gene pool.

^^These are "the rules". I am not PC on this issue, this does not sit well with me, so I'll reiterate: There is no justification for the application of such rules at an official level.

kingjohn
12-25-2016, 10:43 PM
so we are all from the "seed of israel"
are we happy now ?
for me it doesn't matter......
regards
adam

Erik
12-25-2016, 10:45 PM
so we are all from the "seed of israel"
are we happy now ?
for me it doesn't matter......
regards
adam

Just curious, but why do you have so much faith that Rabbinical Orthodox Judaism is absolutely the right opinion on the matter?

Agamemnon
12-25-2016, 10:55 PM
According to the Orthodox, that's the halakhic category you fall into. Again, they are obliged to convert such people.

Personally, I put no stock in consensus, there was a time when the overwhelming majority of Jews were Karaite. Times change, tastes change, minds change, there is no way around this really. The "Who is a Jew?" question needs to be answered realistically, the Orthodox answer is definitely not a realistic one, it is grounded in dogma and is bound to create even more problems because of its nonsensical nature at a time when such measures have outlived their usefulness. Yet again, hailing people who dress like 16th century Polish nobles and swing chickens on Yom Kippur after having "transferred" their sins to these creatures - something more akin to Voodoo practice than anything remotely resembling Temple-era Judaism - as the ultimate embodiment of Jewishness isn't a rational course of action.


Just curious, but why do you have so much faith that Rabbinical Orthodox Judaism is absolutely the right opinion on the matter?

He says he doesn't feel Jewish, and the rabbis tell him just that. Where I'm from, we call this confirmation bias.

Erik
12-25-2016, 11:03 PM
The problem with Rabbinical Orthodoxy is that it places random traditions over the actual word of the text. They remind me more of early Moscovites around the time of Ivan than of what ancient Israelites would have been like.

Karaites, however, are always keeping with history: https://youtu.be/l1VPEO3bC8k

Power77
12-25-2016, 11:20 PM
He would most likely be a lineal descendant of the very same Celts/Germans/Vikings/etc you mentioned. And yet the rabbis have no qualms with calling such a person a "pure Jew" (I've seen this many times in fact), despite the fact that such an individual having children would invariably lead to the introduction of Celtic/Germanic/Viking Y-DNA markers into the Jewish gene pool.


I wonder if it happened already, knowing that there are "Jewish" clusters of U106, L21, U152, DF27, Z282 and even I1 (as well as I2b1):\.BTW, do the Karaim have any R1 or I Y-DNA haplogroups?

Agamemnon
12-25-2016, 11:28 PM
I wonder if it happened already, knowing that there are "Jewish" clusters of U106, L21, U152, DF27, Z282 and even I1 (as well as I2b1):\.BTW, do the Karaim have any R1 or I Y-DNA haplogroups?

I'm quite sure this happened several times, but it has remained a relatively marginal phenomenon... So far. Karaites are understudied, but they seem to largely share the same typically-Jewish uniparental markers for the most part.

Humanist
12-26-2016, 12:00 AM
First of all, it is not certain that Shitler was E-V13. In fact, it is much more likely that he is/was I1 or R1a-Z282 (you should check the Hutter and Hiedler Y-STR results on ysearch).

The alleged sample(s) were taken from one or more men known to be Hitler's great-nephews. The sons of Alois Hitler, Jr.'s offspring, William Patrick Hitler (Stuart-Houston). They do not live too far from me, here on Long Island, NY. I believe these results were a match with the results of individuals thought to be related to Hitler in Austria. Of course, without testing Hitler himself, one can never be certain, but I believe we have enough evidence to not doubt the results.

Anyway, this is OT for this particular thread.

Power77
12-26-2016, 12:00 AM
I'm quite sure this happened several times, but it has remained a relatively marginal phenomenon... So far. Karaites are understudied, but they seem to largely share the same typically-Jewish uniparental markers for the most part.

Thanks for the info Aga';)! I expect the Karaites to lack the aforementioned "European" haplogroups and be (more or less) exclusively J1, J2, E-Z830, E-M84, E-V22 and (perhaps) E-M44. BTW if we think about it, the Rabbinical Law is dumb, as it would consider someone with the surname "Hitler" and a Jewish mother to be "more Jewish" than someone with the surname "Cohen" (or "Levy") and a "Gentile" mother:rofl:!!!

Administrator
12-26-2016, 12:08 AM
PLEASE WATCH THE PROFANITY, LADIES AND GENTS.

raspberry
12-26-2016, 12:28 AM
Why even is haplogroup E in Europe directly connected with ancient Hebrews and Jews in general? It could be just Roman (also the Romans were present in modern-day Austria/ South Germany) or nearly anything from the ancient Near East/Africa (there was even found an ancient Egyptian grave from a Limes (this wall divided the Roman territories and Germanic tribal territories) guard from Roman Times in modern-day South Germany). Also I dont understand why you only search confirmation through haplogroups. I am sure (it is just like this) you arent as diffrent as your Christian European neighbours if you also see it autosomal (also refers to Israelis in general). And his name is Hitler and not "Shittler" (I am not a Nazi but I am sure if you would say something similar to any other historical mass murder, you would have been banned).

Gravetto-Danubian
12-26-2016, 12:39 AM
Why even is haplogroup E in Europe directly connected with ancient Hebrews and Jews in general? It could be just Roman (also the Romans were present in modern-day Austria/ South Germany) or nearly anything from the ancient Near East/Africa (there was even found an ancient Egyptian grave from a Limes guard during Roman Times).

There are different subclades of E. Almost all hg E Europeans belong to the V13 subbranch, which possibly arrived in the Neolithic. Other minorities incl Jews would belong to xE-V13 varieties but of course could also be V13.

Power77
12-26-2016, 12:50 AM
I am sure (it is just like this) you arent as diffrent as your Christian European neighbours if you also see it autosomal (also refers to Israelis in general).

Trust me, we are fairly distinct from most "European" Christians, and that both uniparentally and autosomally:nod:!

raspberry
12-26-2016, 12:53 AM
There are different subclades of E. Almost all hg E Europeans belong to the V13 subbranch, which possibly arrived in the Neolithic. Other minorities incl Jews would belong to xE-V13 varieties but of course could also be V13.

Yes but even if you just look objective on a map of Europe made about this clade, you will see that it is most common in Southeast Europe and especially in Romania. Romanians (Southeast Europeans in general) have had a very big influences from the Romans. So why is nobody assuming that Romanians are Hebrews (or had a big influence from them) but if such a case appears in France (wich was also over settled by Romans) it has to be ancient Hebrew Jewish ancestry.. And also I have to agree with the Rabbis: At the end Jews are an ethno-religious community and thus their religious traditions (for example: being maternal Jewish) are of importance. I doubt that Hitler was Jewish and no proof is brought, it just thrown into the room (metaphoric), so everyone says that like a broken radio, up and down but no evidence is behind it.

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 01:03 AM
Why even is haplogroup E in Europe directly connected with ancient Hebrews and Jews in general? It could be just Roman (also the Romans were present in modern-day Austria/ South Germany) or nearly anything from the ancient Near East/Africa (there was even found an ancient Egyptian grave from a Limes (this wall divided the Roman territories and Germanic tribal territories) guard from Roman Times in modern-day South Germany). Also I dont understand why you only search confirmation through haplogroups. I am sure (it is just like this) you arent as diffrent as your Christian European neighbours if you also see it autosomal (also refers to Israelis in general). And his name is Hitler and not "Shittler" (I am not a Nazi but I am sure if you would say something similar to any other historical mass murder, you would have been banned).

I don't think anyone is linking Y-DNA haplogroup E to Jews in general, there are, however, specifically Jewish subclades which are very useful as markers strongly hinting to paternal Jewish ancestry, this is because uniparental (and autosomal for that matter) diversity is low among Jews.

Also, your average Ashkenazi Jew is far closer to Bronze Age Jordanians than to any host population Ashkenazim lived next to, whether German, Polish, Lithuanian, Ukrainian or Russian from an autosomal standpoint. Ashkenazi, French, Italian, Romaniote, Sephardic, Syrian and North African Jews form a single population, genetically-speaking, a population which I like to call "Western Jewish" (so I don't have to enumerate all the different Jewish groups over and over again).

Power77
12-26-2016, 01:05 AM
And also I have to agree with the Rabbis: At the end Jews are an ethno-religious community and thus their religious traditions (being maternal Jewish) is of importance.

Go tell that to the Karaim>:(!

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 01:10 AM
Tone it down everyone, we can discuss this calmly.

raspberry
12-26-2016, 01:14 AM
I don't think anyone is linking Y-DNA haplogroup E to Jews in general, there are, however, specifically Jewish subclades which are very useful as markers strongly hinting to paternal Jewish ancestry, this is because uniparental (and autosomal for that matter) diversity is low among Jews.

Also, your average Ashkenazi Jew is far closer to Bronze Age Jordanians than to any host population Ashkenazim lived next to, whether German, Polish, Lithuanian, Ukrainian or Russian from an autosomal standpoint. Ashkenazi, French, Italian, Romaniote, Sephardic, Syrian and North African Jews form a single population, genetically-speaking, a population which I like to call "Western Jewish" (so I don't have to enumerate all the different Jewish groups over and over again).
In my eyes there is no difference between Vlad Tepes E-V13, Napoleons E-V13 or Hitlers E-V13. All 3 are NON Jewish, and are not unusual in Europe. I dont think that "your average Ashkenazi Jew is far closer to a Bronze Age Jordanian(s) than to any host population Ashkenazim lived next to [...]". 1.) What do you even mean with closer (genetically seen (autosomal?)) 2.) Phenotypical they look 100% sure not same, not even similar and thus they cant be even in theory "far closer" 3.)What are the references? (there are also Palestinians who say Israeli immigrants (Ashkenazi etc.) and they are genetical most similar people, so this "trick" is also very old)

Erik
12-26-2016, 01:17 AM
In my eyes there is no difference between Vlad Tepes E-V13 and Hitlers E-V13. Both are NON Jewish. I dont think that "your average Ashkenazi Jew is far closer to a Bronze Age Jordanian(s) than to any host population Ashkenazim lived next to [...]". 1.) What do you even mean with closer (genetically?) 2.) Phenotypical they look 100% sure not same, not even similar and thus they cant be even in theory "far closer" 3.)What are the references? (there are also Palestinians who say Israeli immigrants (Ashkenazi etc.) and they are genetical most similar people, so this "trick" is also very old)

How do you know what Bronze Age Jordanians looked like? Can you introduce us to one? Even so, a full Ashkenazi looks more like a Lebanese or Palestinian than a Russian or German to me.

Phenotype is irrelevant though. So let's not get into a debate about that.

Power77
12-26-2016, 01:25 AM
In my eyes there is no difference between Vlad Tepes E-V13, Napoleons E-V13

Napoleon was E-M34, not E-V13. And do you have a source to confirm that Vlad the Impaler was E-V13?

raspberry
12-26-2016, 01:26 AM
How do you know what Bronze Age Jordanians looked like? Can you introduce us to one? Even so, a full Ashkenazi looks more like a Lebanese or Palestinian than to a Russian or German to me.

Phenotype is irrelevant though. So let's not get into a debate about that.

Yes, you are right I dont know how a Bronze Age Jordanian looked like. But it is utopistic to believe that they look like the "standard" Ashkenazi Jews. In my eyes Ashkenazi are not really different from their European neigbours (phenotypical). I agree, phenotype is not helpful in this issue.

Gravetto-Danubian
12-26-2016, 01:28 AM
Yes but even if you just look objective on a map of Europe made about this clade, you will see that it is most common in Southeast Europe and especially in Romania. Romanians (Southeast Europeans in general) have had a very big influences from the Romans.

Actually they did not. This influence was mostly "cultural" and (obviously) linguistic. Romanians look like the other non-Romance speakers of SEE : Bulgarians, Serbs, Macedonians. They bare no special relationship to Italians or Spaniards.


So why is nobody assuming that Romanians are Hebrews (or had a big influence from them) but if such a case appears in France (wich was also over settled by Romans) it has to be ancient Hebrew Jewish ancestry.. And also I have to agree with the Rabbis: At the end Jews are an ethno-religious community and thus their religious traditions (for example: being maternal Jewish) are of importance. I doubt that Hitler was Jewish and no proof is brought, it just thrown into the room (metaphoric), so everyone says that like a broken radio, up and down but no evidence is behind it.

? Que
As above it depends what specific clade of E we are talking about.

raspberry
12-26-2016, 01:33 AM
Napoleon was E-M34, not E-V13. And do you have a source to confirm that Vlad the Impaler was E-V13?
Sorry, yes Napoleon was M34 and not V13. M34 was found in an ancient Natufian site. Still it is assumed by scientists that he is more likely descendant from an ancient phoenician merchant who settled in Corsica (and not a Hebrew, wich would be "obvious" for some Jews).

Erik
12-26-2016, 01:36 AM
Yes, you are right I dont know how a Bronze Age Jordanian looked like. But it is utopistic to believe that they look like the "standard" Ashkenazi Jews. In my eyes Ashkenazi are not really different from their European neigbours. Yes you are right phenotype is not helpful in this issue.

Well of course Ashkenazim are not 100% Levantine. Western Jews are likely around 50/50 Judean and Greek, with Ashkenazim having some minor Eastern European and/or Khazar admixture and Sephardim having minor North African admixture (at least the ones in the Maghreb).

I used to think like you do and thought of Jews as just being not too different as their host populations. I saw myself as an Eastern European and considered myself of Slavic heritage. But I realized this was all false long before I even started doing DNA tests and reading this stuff online. It isn't true because in most cases Jews were completely separate from their neighbors. For example my grandfather was born in what is now Poland, in a shtetl a few minutes drive away from Bialystok. There's nothing Polish about him. He speaks no Polish (only Yiddish, English, and German), had no cultural customs in common with Poles, and was never considered Polish by any authentic Poles. For all intents and purposes, he was a Jew with Polish citizenship who lived in a mini Jewish state within Poland.

You're an Arab from Turkey, correct? Do you consider yourself a Turk, beyond the civic sense?

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 01:39 AM
In my eyes there is no difference between Vlad Tepes E-V13, Napoleons E-V13 or Hitlers E-V13. All 3 are NON Jewish, and are not unusual in Europe. I dont think that "your average Ashkenazi Jew is far closer to a Bronze Age Jordanian(s) than to any host population Ashkenazim lived next to [...]". 1.) What do you even mean with closer (genetically seen (autosomal?)) 2.) Phenotypical they look 100% sure not same, not even similar and thus they cant be even in theory "far closer" 3.)What are the references? (there are also Palestinians who say Israeli immigrants (Ashkenazi etc.) and they are genetical most similar people, so this "trick" is also very old)

Napoleon was E-M34, not E-V13. Also, what makes you even think I claim Napoleon and Hitler were Jews? The only thing which would warrant such a claim is performing a DNA test on their remains and finding loads of IBD segments in common with Jews.

What you think or believe is of no consequence, because you're basically arguing against the data. For instance, here's what my father (who is mostly Ashkenazi) gets when I run his results on nMonte with Bronze Age Jordanians and the aforementioned host populations:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Jordan_EBA:average Cossack:average Ukrainian_West:average
27.54228 29.02506 29.39468
German:average Ukrainian_East:average Belarusian:average
29.60400 30.64814 33.35177
Polish:average Russian_West:average
33.72275 34.38399

As you can see, he's closer to Jordan_EBA than to any of the other host populations. Here go your assumptions. Also, have you ever actually met Ashkenazi Jews? They look nothing like Eastern Europeans on average, but again, that's not very important because we already know they're closer to Bronze Age Jordanians than to Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Cossacks et al.

raspberry
12-26-2016, 01:41 AM
Actually they did not. This influence was mostly "cultural" and (obviously) linguistic. Romanians look like the other non-Romance speakers of SEE : Bulgarians, Serbs, Macedonians. They bare no special relationship to Italians or Spaniards.



? Que
As above it depends what specific clade of E we are talking about.
I dont understand why you are denying proofed facts so you stand in a better position.. I mean E-V13 is most common in South-East Europe and it is known that Romans settled there in large numbers. Of course I am talking about E-V13 clade when I am talking about Romanian people.. I am also not speaking about Spanish people nor Italians.

Power77
12-26-2016, 01:55 AM
Still no source about Vlad raspberry;)...

Gravetto-Danubian
12-26-2016, 01:57 AM
I dont understand why you are denying proofed facts so you stand in a better position.. I mean E-V13 is most common in South-East Europe and it is known that Romans settled there in large numbers. Of course I am talking about E-V13 clade when I am talking about Romanian people.. I am also not speaking about Spanish people nor Italians.

If you wanted to learn you'd take my advice on board instead of claiming I am "denying" anything. As I said, E V13 has been found in Neolithic Spain. How is that "Roman" ??

raspberry
12-26-2016, 02:03 AM
Napoleon was E-M34, not E-V13. Also, what makes you even think I claim Napoleon and Hitler were Jews? The only thing which would warrant such a claim is performing a DNA test on their remains and finding loads of IBD segments in common with Jews.

What you think or believe is of no consequence, because you're basically arguing against the data. For instance, here's what my father (who is mostly Ashkenazi) gets when I run his results on nMonte with Bronze Age Jordanians and the aforementioned host populations:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Jordan_EBA:average Cossack:average Ukrainian_West:average
27.54228 29.02506 29.39468
German:average Ukrainian_East:average Belarusian:average
29.60400 30.64814 33.35177
Polish:average Russian_West:average
33.72275 34.38399

As you can see, he's closer to Jordan_EBA than to any of the other host populations. Here go your assumptions. Also, have you ever actually met Ashkenazi Jews? They look nothing like Eastern Europeans on average, but again, that's not very important because we already know they're closer to Bronze Age Jordanians than to Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Cossacks et al.

Sorry, I dont understand what that is, what the programm is doing nor what the goal of it is. I am sure autosomal of your father would be similar to your European Christian neighbours and I could understand what is being calculated.

"You're an Arab from Turkey, correct? Do you consider yourself a Turk, beyond the civic sense?" - I wouldnt consider myself as Turkish. But I have some more tangible aspects (not only some genetic evidence) to not see myself as a Turk. 1.) Arabic was always spoken (and is) by us (ALL my ancestors spoke Arabic, father, Grandfather, mother, granduncle, what ever is related to me (:D) spoke/speaks it), do your family spoke Hebrew without brake? 2.) We never broke from our ties: tribalism was always part of our tradition and culture (relations were maintained in the past). 3.)History was never "unsecure" about our origins (sounds weird but I hope the point is understandable), my ancestors were tax payers to the Ottoman Empire under the surname (nisba) ash-Shaybani (the Shaybani) and thus I feel confirmed (even though non of my haplogroups (whether paternal nor maternal) are "very" Arabian (at the current stage of science)). Do your family members were registered for example as Canaan (just as an example) and their root were traceable back to ancient times? I doubt that.. I think this example is not very fitting for the Jewish people..

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 02:19 AM
Sorry, I dont understand what that is, what the programm is doing nor what the goal of it is. I am sure autosomal your father would be similar to your European Christian neighbours and I could understand what is being calculated.

Simply put, what I showed you is a single population mode, the closer to 0 the more likely a given person is descended from the population included in the runs. In this case, I've modeled my father as Bronze Age Jordanian + all the other host populations Ashkenazim lived next to. Unsurprisingly, he is closer to the Bronze Age Jordanians than to Germans and Eastern Europeans.

I'm going to give you another, similar example... Here's what my father gets on Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 35.78
2 West_Med 19.04
3 North_Atlantic 16.71
4 West_Asian 10.89
5 Baltic 8.63
6 Red_Sea 5.33
7 South_Asian 1.95
8 East_Asian 1.13


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Ashkenazi @ 3.101251
2 East_Sicilian @ 7.326695
3 Italian_Jewish @ 7.545469
4 South_Italian @ 7.575171
5 Sephardic_Jewish @ 8.415627
6 Algerian_Jewish @ 8.678719
7 Central_Greek @ 8.723615
8 West_Sicilian @ 9.429933
9 Italian_Abruzzo @ 11.075230
10 Tunisian_Jewish @ 12.082103
11 Libyan_Jewish @ 12.906342
12 Greek_Thessaly @ 13.430422
13 Tuscan @ 16.400160
14 Cyprian @ 16.886238
15 Lebanese_Muslim @ 20.668343
16 Syrian @ 21.793491
17 Bulgarian @ 22.947962
18 Samaritan @ 23.039751
19 Palestinian @ 23.238127
20 Jordanian @ 23.471920

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +50% Ashkenazi @ 3.101251

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +25% Lebanese_Druze +25% North_Italian @ 2.525128

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + North_Italian @ 2.525128
2 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish @ 2.525799
3 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.711972
4 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + South_Italian @ 2.860894
5 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish @ 2.903197
6 Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 2.938966
7 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + East_Sicilian + Italian_Jewish @ 2.978379
8 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 3.034344
9 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 3.048953
10 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Tuscan @ 3.057564
11 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian @ 3.063796
12 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Christian + North_Italian @ 3.100687
13 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi @ 3.101251
14 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + North_Italian @ 3.144769
15 Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.182374
16 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi @ 3.191588
17 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + North_Italian @ 3.219344
18 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Sephardic_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 3.296786
19 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.331463
20 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish @ 3.357651

Now, by all means, please do explain how my father is similar to his "European Christian neighbours", that is to say Belarusians, Lithuanians and Ukrainians. I'm quite eager to see your explanation.

raspberry
12-26-2016, 02:28 AM
If you wanted to learn you'd take my advice on board instead of claiming I am "denying" anything. As I said, E V13 has been found in Neolithic Spain. How is that "Roman" ??
Yes that is possible but one the one hand you say that you arent connecting v13 with Hebrews but on the other hand you try to show me that their is ancient Hebrew in Europe with the V13 clade and is not "Roman" (wich I dont assumed).. But as far as I know a DNA test of ancient sceletons are not made on base of "if someone is jewish or not". Spain is on a Position where it doesnt surprise me at all that V13 exists since neolithic (pre-roman) times.. But as already said the reasons for V13 musnt need to be of Roman origin, there are many different explanations. Also I am not an expert on this so I cant say. I actually just commented because of Power who assumed Hitler of being not possible a V13, rather he is r1a or similar. My matter is more to say that the explanations of V13 in Europe is too simplified, rather in "debunking" your Jewish ancestry.

Power77
12-26-2016, 02:35 AM
I actually just commented because of Power who assumed Hitler of being Jewish.

I never claimed or assumed that (S)Hitler is/was Jewish, what are you talking about dawg>:(?

raspberry
12-26-2016, 02:41 AM
Simply put, what I showed you is a single population mode, the closer to 0 the more likely a given person is descended from the population included in the runs. In this case, I've modeled my father as a Bronze Age Jordanian + all the other host populations Ashkenazim lived next to. Unsurprisingly, he is closer to the Bronze Age Jordanians than to Germans and Eastern Europeans.

I'm going to give you another, similar example... Here's what my father gets on Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 35.78
2 West_Med 19.04
3 North_Atlantic 16.71
4 West_Asian 10.89
5 Baltic 8.63
6 Red_Sea 5.33
7 South_Asian 1.95
8 East_Asian 1.13


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Ashkenazi @ 3.101251
2 East_Sicilian @ 7.326695
3 Italian_Jewish @ 7.545469
4 South_Italian @ 7.575171
5 Sephardic_Jewish @ 8.415627
6 Algerian_Jewish @ 8.678719
7 Central_Greek @ 8.723615
8 West_Sicilian @ 9.429933
9 Italian_Abruzzo @ 11.075230
10 Tunisian_Jewish @ 12.082103
11 Libyan_Jewish @ 12.906342
12 Greek_Thessaly @ 13.430422
13 Tuscan @ 16.400160
14 Cyprian @ 16.886238
15 Lebanese_Muslim @ 20.668343
16 Syrian @ 21.793491
17 Bulgarian @ 22.947962
18 Samaritan @ 23.039751
19 Palestinian @ 23.238127
20 Jordanian @ 23.471920

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +50% Ashkenazi @ 3.101251

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +25% Lebanese_Druze +25% North_Italian @ 2.525128

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + North_Italian @ 2.525128
2 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish @ 2.525799
3 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.711972
4 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + South_Italian @ 2.860894
5 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish @ 2.903197
6 Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 2.938966
7 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + East_Sicilian + Italian_Jewish @ 2.978379
8 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 3.034344
9 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 3.048953
10 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Tuscan @ 3.057564
11 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian @ 3.063796
12 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Christian + North_Italian @ 3.100687
13 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi @ 3.101251
14 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + North_Italian @ 3.144769
15 Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.182374
16 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi @ 3.191588
17 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + North_Italian @ 3.219344
18 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Sephardic_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 3.296786
19 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.331463
20 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish @ 3.357651

Now, by all means, please do explain how my father is similar to his "European Christian neighbours", that is to say Belarusians, Lithuanians and Ukrainians. I'm quite eager to hear your explanation.

Thank you for sharing the results. Yes indeed you have a significant difference in the usual East Europeans. I didnt knew it. But this proofs what I always assumed: These kind of calculators are very orientated for "Jewish needs". I mean there are probably about 15 (if not more) Jewish populations in that calculator..

raspberry
12-26-2016, 02:45 AM
I never claimed or assumed that (S)Hitler is/was Jewish, what are you talking about dawg>:(?
I changed my words: You said that Hitler is more likely a R1a rather then V13. I thought you are saying this because you assume Hitler cant be a Jew (with V13). I hope you underestand what I try to explain.

jesus
12-26-2016, 02:47 AM
Thank you for sharing the results. Yes indeed you have a significant difference in the usual East Europeans. I didnt knew it. But this proofs what I always assumed: These kind of calculators are very orientated for "Jewish needs". I mean there are probably about 15 (if not more) Jewish populations in that calculator..

That's because more Jewish subgroups are tested, which makes sense since most Jews live in scientifically advanced countries. Most Europeans groups are heavily sampled as well, due to the same reason.

Erik
12-26-2016, 02:49 AM
Thank you for sharing the results. Yes indeed you have a significant difference in the usual East Europeans. I didnt knew it. But this proofs what I always assumed: These kind of calculators are very orientated for "Jewish needs". I mean there are probably about 15 (if not more) Jewish populations in that calculator..

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Southwest_English @ 4.756205
2 Irish @ 6.040904
3 Orcadian @ 6.236909
4 West_Scottish @ 6.335187
5 Southeast_English @ 6.725745
6 North_Dutch @ 8.443303
7 Danish @ 8.788353
8 Norwegian @ 10.108791
9 South_Dutch @ 10.194398
10 North_German @ 10.330739
11 West_German @ 12.103315
12 Swedish @ 12.282981
13 French @ 14.874377
14 Austrian @ 17.952456
15 East_German @ 18.016695
16 North_Swedish @ 18.697931
17 Southwest_French @ 21.124100
18 Spanish_Cataluna @ 21.578358
19 Spanish_Cantabria @ 22.155025
20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 22.881392

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Southwest_English +50% Southwest_English @ 4.756205


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Danish +25% French_Basque +25% Swedish @ 4.251459


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Danish + French_Basque + Irish + Swedish @ 3.957947
2 French_Basque + Irish + Swedish + Swedish @ 3.962207
3 French_Basque + Irish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 3.964216
4 French_Basque + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 4.009408
5 French_Basque + Irish + Irish + North_Swedish @ 4.016624
6 French_Basque + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 4.046918
7 French_Basque + Irish + North_German + Swedish @ 4.049772
8 French_Basque + Norwegian + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 4.119687
9 Danish + French_Basque + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 4.120021
10 French_Basque + Irish + North_Dutch + Swedish @ 4.126759
11 French_Basque + Irish + North_Swedish + West_Scottish @ 4.132606
12 French_Basque + North_German + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 4.144993
13 French_Basque + Irish + North_German + Norwegian @ 4.192918
14 French_Basque + Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 4.198901
15 French_Basque + Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 4.210433
16 Danish + French_Basque + Norwegian + Swedish @ 4.219995
17 French_Basque + Irish + Orcadian + Swedish @ 4.229455
18 Danish + French_Basque + Irish + Norwegian @ 4.231358
19 French_Basque + Norwegian + Orcadian + Swedish @ 4.242623
20 Danish + French_Basque + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 4.250820


Look at this west euro result which really shows how they created the calculator just for their needs because all of their populations are represented...

Tz85
12-26-2016, 02:50 AM
We all know for sure that Jews descend from J and sub clades of E-M35. Certainly not R1b or I. Sorry to burst your bubble. All other clades are result of conversion.

Erik
12-26-2016, 02:53 AM
We all know for sure that Jews descend from J and sub clades of E-M35. Certainly not R1b or I. Sorry to burst your bubble. All other clades are result of conversion.

Any R1b Jews are more likely to be from Iranic speakers as opposed to more recent European groups

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 02:55 AM
Thank you for sharing the results. Yes indeed you have a significant difference in the usual East Europeans. I didnt knew it. But this proofs what I always assumed: These kind of calculators are very orientated for "Jewish needs". I mean there are probably about 15 (if not more) Jewish populations in that calculator..

How so? While they are near-identical from a genetic standpoint, Western Jews are made up of different Jewish groups in their own right. In fact many are missing here, Syrian and Romaniote Jews for instance.

Either way, this is the kind of results he gets if I try to model his ancestry without Jewish populations:

[1] "distance%=0.0781 / distance=0.000781"

Samaritan 45.50
French_South:average 31.25
Avar:average 14.30
Polish:average 7.60
Chuvash:average 1.35

Notice the genetic distance, in red.

Tz85
12-26-2016, 02:57 AM
We see Haplogroup J as Hebrews, and clades of E-M35 as Hebrews and Mitzrayim mixed. This is why these are the two main groups. Just as it is foretold in our book.

jesus
12-26-2016, 02:59 AM
How so? While they are near-identical from a genetic standpoint, Western Jews are made up of different Jewish groups in their own right. In fact many are missing here, Syrian and Romaniote Jews for instance.

Either way, this is the kind of results he gets if I try to model his ancestry without Jewish populations:

[1] "distance%=0.0781 / distance=0.000781"

Samaritan 45.50
French_South:average 31.25
Avar:average 14.30
Polish:average 7.60
Chuvash:average 1.35

Notice the genetic distance, in red.


Any idea about why Avars and Chuvashs keep on showing up?

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 02:59 AM
We all know for sure that Jews descend from J and sub clades of E-M35. Certainly not R1b or I. Sorry to burst your bubble. All other clades are result of conversion.

I really doubt R1b-Z2103, R1b-V88 or even R1a-CTS6 are the end result of conversion.

Power77
12-26-2016, 03:00 AM
Any R1b Jews are more likely to be from Iranic speakers.

The same goes for R1a Jews. However, I doubt that R1b-V88 and E1a1 Jews (such as myself;)) are descended from (recent) converts.

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 03:01 AM
Any idea about why Avars and Chuvashs keep on showing up?

I initially thought this might be due to Khazar ancestry (logical eh? fair to assume they could've been Chuvash + Avar) but after trying dozens of different models, the only populations which bring "Avar" down are Armenia_Chalcolithic and Armenia_EBA, it basically disappears if I use Druze instead of Samaritan (doesn't improve the fit) so I'm beginning to think this should actually be lumped with "Samaritan". As far as Chuvash goes however, there's always between 1% and 2% Chuvash, and the only possible substitute is Bashkir (which doesn't improve the fit either), so considering the fact that they're the Khazars' closest relatives linguistically-speaking (the Khazar language was, like Chuvash, Lir-Turkic) this might well be a remnant of Khazar ancestry.

jesus
12-26-2016, 03:03 AM
We see Haplogroup J as Hebrews, and clades of E-M35 as Hebrews and Mitzrayim mixed. This is why these are the two main groups. Just as it is foretold in our book.

Is Mitzrayim = Egypt? Y-DNA E was in the region way before Egyptians(Natufians/Levantine noelithic farmers had it)

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 03:04 AM
Is Mitzrayim = Egypt? Y-DNA E was in the region way before Egyptians(Natufians/Levantine noelithic farmers had it)

Yes, Mitsrayim is Hebrew for Egypt.

Tz85
12-26-2016, 03:04 AM
Is Mitzrayim = Egypt? Y-DNA E was in the region way before Egyptians(Natufians/Levantine noelithic farmers had it)

My Haplogroup is found up to 50% in Egyptians.

Tz85
12-26-2016, 03:09 AM
Didn't all these haplogroups exist before the peoples were are currently talking about existed? What's your point?

jesus
12-26-2016, 03:14 AM
Didn't all these haplogroups exist before the peoples were are currently talking about existed? What's your point?

My point is that it doesn't have to be " Egyptian " in origin. Frequency usually has little to with the place of origin.

Tz85
12-26-2016, 03:17 AM
My point is that it doesn't have to be " Egyptian " in origin. Frequency usually has little to with the place of origin.

I still don't understand your point. Ydna from E is from Africa, Egypt is in Africa, the majority of these M35 clades point strongly to Egyptian origin.

Tz85
12-26-2016, 03:25 AM
If frequency has little to do with place of origin, than I think we can say we have no idea where any haplogroup originates.

Power77
12-26-2016, 03:35 AM
To me, the most "mysterious" haplogroup found among Jews is Q1b. Where can it possibly come from:confused:?

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 03:39 AM
To me, the most "mysterious" haplogroup found among Jews is Q1b. Where can it possibly come from:confused:?

I'd argue it arrived in the Levant with R1a-F1345, probably with the Mitannians.

Erik
12-26-2016, 03:40 AM
I'd argue it arrived in the Levant with R1a-F1345, probably with the Mitannians.

You mentioned once that 10% of Canaanite names were of Aryan origin. Where was this attested, and did any of these names make their way into the Tanakh?

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 03:49 AM
You mentioned once that 10% of Canaanite names were of Aryan origin. Where was this attested, and did any of these names make their way into the Tanakh?

We know this from the Amarna "letters", there are several distinctly Indo-Aryan linguistic elements among the names of rulers of specific Canaanite cities (Widiya of Ashkelon, Birashena of Shechem, etc). There are no such names in the Bible though IIRC.

Power77
12-26-2016, 03:50 AM
Do any of you guys here know if R1b-L389 (the subclade raspberry carries) is found among Jews:\?

raspberry
12-26-2016, 11:20 AM
It is nice how sure you all are of being Hebrew. The factual standpoint is different: E-V13 was clade of Romans, ancient Greeks, Illyrians and Phoenicians. And as already mentioned by Agamemnon it was found in Neolithic Spain (wich proofs only that is most likely not Hebrew). All of these people are rather ancient to Europe and spread throughtout Europe. This is what I say. If you believe that some ancient Hebrews settled in masses (askenzai, Sephardi) in Europe than I cant show it different because you are to convinced of yourselves (being Hebrew). There are no (not mythological) sources where the ancient Hebrews (or if they went in masses) went to exile(s). Also I wouldnt even want to belong to J1 or haplogroup E because R1b (I am from a very old clade) was founder of agriculture, cattle keeping and master in iron proccessing. "We all know for sure that Jews descend from J and sub clades of E-M35. Certainly not R1b or I. Sorry to burst your bubble. All other clades are result of conversion" - you are just like a Rabbi thinking he is chosen by god (and has the honor to belong to J1), sorry to say it but I wouldnt even want to be Jewish if I had the choice nor I would like to belong to haplogroups like E or J1.

Awale
12-26-2016, 12:06 PM
How do you know what Bronze Age Jordanians looked like? Can you introduce us to one? Even so, a full Ashkenazi looks more like a Lebanese or Palestinian than a Russian or German to me.

Heh, reminds me of "David Silverman". He was on a show once and claimed that being Jewish was fake and that he was in fact "Eastern European by descent" (see for yourself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cPmPk5BPHA&t=6m50s))... I had a real good laugh at this since David-san looks like this:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/16093wl.jpg

I don't know what ethnic Russians or Poles or what have you this guy's been looking at but he'd never phenotypically come off as one of them but he'd certainly blend in among Sephardim (whom he claimed he doesn't look like). :P

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 12:19 PM
It is nice how sure you all are of being Hebrew. The facual standpoint is different: E-V13 was clade of Romans, ancient Greeks, Illyrians and Phoenicians. And as already mentioned by Agamemnon it was found in Neolithic Spain (wich proofs only that is most likely not Hebrew). All of these people are rather ancient to Europe and spread throughtout Europe. This is what I say. If you believe that some ancient Hebrews settled in masses (askenzai, Sephardi) in Europe than I cant show it different because you are to convinced of yourselves (being Hebrew). There are no (not mythological) sources where the ancient Hebrews (or if they went in masses) went to exile(s). Also I wouldnt even want to belong to J1 or haplogroup E because R1b (I am from a very old clade) was founder of agriculture, cattle keeping and master in iron proccessing. "We all know for sure that Jews descend from J and sub clades of E-M35. Certainly not R1b or I. Sorry to burst your bubble. All other clades are result of conversion" - you are just like a Rabbi thinking he is chosen by god (and has the honor to belong to J1), sorry to say it but I wouldnt even want to be Jewish if I had the choice nor I would like to belong to haplogroups like E or J1.

You sure seem to have a hard time accepting simple facts. I mean, do you honestly think we ended up with Hebrew as our national language by mistake? This is no happy coincidence of course, our ancestors always knew they were descended from the Israelites, they always identified as such and they were repeatedly persecuted because of it. What we have learned about the genetic make up of Jews merely vindicated their claims.

What I can tell you is that, on average, Western Jews are bound to be between 50% and 60% Judean/Israelite, usually around ~57% for Ashkenazi Jews (as in the case of my father for instance). The rest of their ancestry seems to be Southern (or SE) European, Greek or Roman (this is still under debate), with minor additional admixture from their respective host populations. If we look at uniparental markers, Western Jews seem to be overwhelmingly West Asian or SW Asian on the Y-DNA side (on closer inspection, most branches they carry have something to do with the Levant), there is more diversity on the mtDNA side, however Ashkenazim carry 4 major mtDNA lineages which account for most of their maternal ancestry (the precise origin of these mtDNA lineages has yet to be determined, some argue they are European, others argue they are Near Eastern in origin, I think the truth is somewhere between the two). In contemporary terms, they are by and large near-identical to one another, which is quite a feat after 1,800 years of exile. In other words, Russian and Turkish Jews are far closer to each other than either of them are to their host populations, if that doesn't strongly hint to a common origin I simply don't know what does.

^^These are the raw facts about the origins of Western Jews. I could've mentioned the Natufian or Bronze Age Jordanian samples, I could've gone into details about the origins of specific Jewish lineages (including my own), I could've posted more Jewish results, all of which would equally serve to prove my point. If you have a hard time accepting these facts, I think it's better to avoid this topic altogether.

You have a wonderful day, sir :)


Heh, reminds me of "David Silverman". He was on a show once and claimed that being Jewish was fake and that he was in fact "Eastern European by descent" (see for yourself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cPmPk5BPHA&t=6m50s))... I had a real good laugh at this since David-san looks like this:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/16093wl.jpg

I don't know what ethnic Russians or Poles or what have you this guy's been looking at but he'd never phenotypically come off as one of them but he'd certainly blend in among Sephardim (whom he claimed he doesn't look like). :P

Something very similar happened with a famous Jewish talk show host in France who claimed to be "Hungarian", this is what he looks like:

http://cdn3-public.ladmedia.fr/var/public/storage/images/news/michel-drucker-a-propos-de-dieudonne-je-crois-qu-il-est-manipule-492928/5913010-1-fre-FR/Michel-Drucker-a-propos-de-Dieudonne-Je-crois-qu-il-est-manipule-!_portrait_w674.jpg

In the simplest terms, this is one of the many consequences of Jewish indifference (the Jewish version of AIDS as I like to call it). Indifference towards their own history, their identity, their heritage, their fate... The list goes on and on.

Power77
12-26-2016, 01:05 PM
http://oi67.tinypic.com/16093wl.jpg
http://cdn3-public.ladmedia.fr/var/public/storage/images/news/michel-drucker-a-propos-de-dieudonne-je-crois-qu-il-est-manipule-492928/5913010-1-fre-FR/Michel-Drucker-a-propos-de-Dieudonne-Je-crois-qu-il-est-manipule-!_portrait_w674.jpg


Hm, looks like we have another "claimed to be "Russian" or "Hungarian", til' they found out that they belong to either J1 or E-M34 and cluster with Lebanese and Bronze Age Jordanians rather than with their "putative" European brothaz" situation here:bounce:!

But Gee, do these people have a mirror at home:\? I mean, even Aga' and I look ber-"Gentile" compared to the two chaps above:rofl:!

Awale
12-26-2016, 01:38 PM
In other words, Russian and Turkish Jews are far closer to one another than either of them are to their host populations, if this does not strongly hint to a common origin I simply don't know what does.

Heh, you don't even need to demonstrate this in any detailed manner. One or two simple PCAs will do the trick, honestly:

http://oi65.tinypic.com/1zvtz6w.jpg

Link to full PCA (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WWEx4bnFWSTc2dWM/view?usp=sharing)


After seeing that or any PCAs like it, anyone who wants to claim Ashkenazim and Sephardim aren't nearly identical (from an auDNA standpoint) and are actually closer to their various host populations is simply arguing against the data and is, in all honesty, a waste of time to argue with.

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 01:43 PM
hittler was e-v13 my friednd
he wasn't r1a
check his face{when he was young} very long like awale long face
http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/141/590x/secondary/Young-Hitler-276428.jpg
and beyond that his relatives were confirmed to be e-v13 .....
regards
Adam

p.s

why do i believe orthodox jews because i believe they are the right path .
other strains which let woman go for the tora are a joke in my eyes and they ofend the jewish relgion ...
i am not relgious i believe relegions brought many wars and bad things ....


regards
Adam

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 01:48 PM
lol are you saying Awale looks like Hitler? What have you been smoking, haver? :rofl:

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 01:54 PM
Heh, you don't even need to demonstrate this in any detailed manner. One or two simple PCAs will do the trick, honestly:

http://oi65.tinypic.com/1zvtz6w.jpg

Link to full PCA (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WWEx4bnFWSTc2dWM/view?usp=sharing)


After seeing that or any PCAs like it, anyone who wants to claim Ashkenazim and Sephardim aren't nearly identical (from an auDNA standpoint) and are actually closer to their various host populations is simply arguing against the data and is, in all honesty, a waste of time to argue with.

I think you're right, here are other similar PCA plots highlighting just that:

http://pichoster.net/images/2016/12/26/5jbkEdu.png
http://pichoster.net/images/2016/12/26/ehUOcC.png
http://pichoster.net/images/2016/12/26/PCA%20plot%20Jewish%20cluster.jpg

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 01:56 PM
i am saying the e-m78 features remain
live the skin colour aside .....
i already said he is much more conected to him tahn the r1a and r1b guys ....
best regards
haver.......

raspberry
12-26-2016, 01:58 PM
Really the level of this discussion is very low. I mean why are people even determining haplogroups with phenotypical appearance? This is not scientific and belongs to Eupedia Forum, rather then on Anthrogenica. Also Adolf Hitler had not even have "a very long face". It maybe fits for Somalis that they have a long face but Hitler had a small head (see picture) as a NON Hebrew carrier of E-V13.

Erik
12-26-2016, 02:00 PM
hittler was e-v13 my friednd
he wasn't r1a
check his face{when he was young} very long like awale long face
http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/141/590x/secondary/Young-Hitler-276428.jpg
and beyond that his relatives were confirmed to be e-v13 .....
regards
Adam

p.s

why do i believe orthodox jews because i believe they are the right path .
other strains which let woman go for the tora are a joke in my eyes and they ofend the jewish relgion ...
i am not relgious i believe relegions brought many wars and bad things ....


regards
Adam

I agree with you that the Reform sects are a joke, but we're talking about the Karaite point of view and not that of the Reform's.

raspberry
12-26-2016, 02:00 PM
Adolf Hitler (E-V13) on the right and Henry Phillipe Petain (R1b-L389 > L21) on the right (on the back some German R1b-L389 carriers). Even the R1b guys have longer faces then Hitler. This proofs that haplogroups dont have influence on the phenotypical appearance of a person. y dna only carriers that the child will be a male. A Y0 person cant live (a X0 girl (Turner syndrom) is able to live).
13323

Erik
12-26-2016, 02:04 PM
Really the level of this discussion is very low. I mean why are people even determining haplogroups with phenotypical appearance? This is not scientific and belongs to Eupedia Forum, rather then on Anthrogenica. Also Adolf Hitler had not even have "a very long face". It maybe fits for Somalis that they have a long face but Hitler had a small head (see picture) as a NON Hebrew carrier of E-V13.

True, this discussion has some low level elements to it, such as people blatantly denying population genetic evidence in order to protect their biases.
You're right about the whole "haplogroup to face correlation" being pseudoscientific, though.

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 02:07 PM
acording to the karaite {going by the father}
than you are right i am a jewboy all the way
best
regards

p.s
but i can tell you many rabies call them{karaites} non jews
because they only fololow the written Torah
not the oral torah.

Awale
12-26-2016, 02:10 PM
hittler was e-v13 my friednd
he wasn't r1a
check his face{when he was young} very long like awale long face
http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/141/590x/secondary/Young-Hitler-276428.jpg
and beyond that his relatives were confirmed to be e-v13 .....
regards
Adam

Did you just casually say I look like Hitler? :lol: Man, I see you're still too focused on Y-DNA & mtDNA lineages. I'll simply copy-paste something I said ages back on this particular matter:


Are you really still arguing that HGs have some sort of bearing on aggression? Don't focus on the fact that I'm a Y-DNA E dude, I'm not offended at all here, akh... It's just that you're being ridiculous, mayne. There's no proof that HGs have any bearing on something like aggression, more than a bit absurd to suggest so. Also, some seem to get carried away with Haplogroups when autosomal DNA is more important, truthfully. You can easily trace almost no real ancestry back to the person you owe whatever given HG you have but auDNA can characterize what group you belong to pretty solidly.

Hitler was a German and I doubt he'd have turned out notably distinct from a German of Y-DNA I or what have you, same as I am no different from "Brainblaster" here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WejZ1c3ZZZUE4YWs/view) who is of Y-DNA T-M70 but a fellow Somali who's autosomally more or less identical me. So any "behavioral problems" I may have that have a genetic predisposition to them would sooner be shared with him and not a random E-V32 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V32/) Saudi I haven't shared meaningful ancestry with in likely thousands of years.

Seriously, bro... Y-DNA and mtDNA lineages have no bearing on things like pigmentation or the form of someone's facial bones (http://oi68.tinypic.com/nfku3s.jpg); that's autosomal DNA stuff and Hitler was definitely a "European" Germanic speaking male in that respect. The only reason he and I have even remotely similar facial features in your eyes is probably because we both trace ancestry to Villabruna-related HGs and Basal Eurasians (in my case, I'd say descent from Dinka-like pre-historic East-Central Africans enhanced the effect as well). But thanks for classifying me as a Hitleroid, meng. This is definitely a first. :P

Tz85
12-26-2016, 02:11 PM
Really the level of this discussion is very low. I mean why are people even determining haplogroups with phenotypical appearance? This is not scientific and belongs to Eupedia Forum, rather then on Anthrogenica. Also Adolf Hitler had not even have "a very long face". It maybe fits for Somalis that they have a long face but Hitler had a small head (see picture) as a NON Hebrew carrier of E-V13.

Could the level of discussion be low because of people like you denying the fact that Haplogroup J, and clades of E-M35 are the founding haplogroups of the Hebrews? My guess is you were upset when you came back as R1b?

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 02:11 PM
I agree with you that the Reform sects are a joke, but we're talking about the Karaite point of view and not that of the Reform's.

So do I, for the record.

Erik
12-26-2016, 02:17 PM
acording to the karaite {going by the father}
than you are right i am a jewboy all the way
best
regards

p.s
but i can tell you many rabies call them{karaites} non jews
because they only fololow the written Torah
not the oral torah.

I find it strange how some Rabbis don't consider Karaites as Jews, considering most are from Jewish mothers. So a Christian with a tenth great-grandmother being a Jew is 100% Jewish, yet a Karaite who is Jewish on both sides is just 'not a Jew'. I'm not even talking theologically, because a lot of Rabbinites genuinely believe that Karaites are not Jews, period.

Personally I don't believe there was ever an Oral Torah. It was never hinted at in the slightest bit anywhere in the Tanakh. I think this "oral Torah" is a combination of the Tanakh interpretation of the time, words/advice of the 'wise', and most importantly: tradition! (https://youtu.be/gRdfX7ut8gw)

You don't see yourself as Jewish or as European, correct? What do you identify as mainly?

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 02:20 PM
sorry if i ofened you but still if we go by paternal line
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uewwgsOS11M/UatyWbR368I/AAAAAAAABa8/gaEjr2W1Los/s1600/Haplogroup+e+3.jpg
you are close to this devile much more than me and every r1b and r1a out there :)
best regards
adam

anyway it is not conected to ethno of the jews which is the subject ....

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 02:21 PM
I find it strange how some Rabbis don't consider Karaites as Jews, considering most are from Jewish mothers. So a Christian with a tenth great-grandmother being a Jew is 100% Jewish, yet a Karaite who is Jewish on both sides is just 'not a Jew'. I'm not even talking theologically, because a lot of Rabbinites genuinely believe that Karaites are not Jews, period.

Personally I don't believe there was ever an Oral Torah. It was never hinted at in the slightest bit anywhere in the Tanakh. I think this "oral Torah" is a combination of the Tanakh interpretation of the time, words/advice of the 'wise', and most importantly: tradition! (https://youtu.be/gRdfX7ut8gw)

You don't see yourself as Jewish or as European, correct? What do you identify as mainly?

a human being
best regards
adam

raspberry
12-26-2016, 02:23 PM
Could the level of discussion be low because of people like you denying the fact that Haplogroup J, and clades of E-M35 are the founding haplogroups of the Hebrews? My guess is you were upset when you came back as R1b?

Okay sorry Hebrew for denying your origins. Last time: E-V13 is also carried by Ancient Greeks, Romans, Illyrians. Even Napoleon was E-M35 (found in ancient Natufians), scientists say he is Phoenician and not "Hebrew", but you see what you want to see (same with your mtdna, since when is I Levantine (?) :D). You can claim what ever you want why I am "upset" (?), but making patriotism out of a haplogroups is ridicilous (this is what you are doing). And I like being of the R1b haplogroup as already said. Your y-dna is carried by so many Egyptians, but non of them are seeing themelves as Hebrew (and likely they are not). But still you are saying that you are Hebrew and are ignoring all other facts. When did I deny that Hebrews main y-haplogroups were not J1 and E? I made the example with the Roman guard of Egyptian origin whose grave was found in South-Germany (E-M35).

Il Pap
12-26-2016, 02:25 PM
Aren't you all tired with kingjohn nonsense ?

best regards
Il Pap

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 02:28 PM
you dont have to read it .
my dear anti-semite
adam

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 02:29 PM
Again, tone it down everyone, or this thread will be closed.

Tz85
12-26-2016, 02:37 PM
Okay sorry Hebrew for denying (?) your origins. Last time: E-V13 is also carried by Ancient Greeks, Romans, Illyrians. Even Napoleon was E-M35 (found in ancient Natufians), scientists say he is Phoenician and not "Hebrew", but you see what you want to see (same with your mtdna, since when is I Levantine (?) :D). You can claim what ever you want why I am "upset" (?), but making patriotism out of a haplogroups is ridicilous (this is what you are doing). And I like being of the R1b haplogroup as already said. Your y-dna is carried by so many Egyptians, but non of them are seeing themelves as Hebrew (and likely they are not). But still you are saying that you are Hebrew and are ignoring all other facts. When did I deny that Hebrews main y-haplogroups were not J1 and E? I made the example with the Roman guard of Egyptian origin whose grave was found in South-Germany.

First off, my ydna is E-V12*, which is totally non European, not V13. Secondly, My mtdna I5a which is found in Yemeni samples, must I give you sources? Not all of I is Eurasian, considering I originates in West Asia. Thirdly, me being Jewish has absolutely nothing to do with my ydna. I'm Jewish from my mothers side. Just some fyi.

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 02:40 PM
First off, my ydna is E-V12*, which is totally non European, not V13. Secondly, My mtdna I5a which is found in Yemeni samples, must I give you sources? Not all of I is Eurasian, considering I originates in West Asia. Thirdly, me being Jewish has absolutely nothing to do with my ydna. I'm Jewish from my mothers side. Just some fyi.

What's your ethnic background, exactly?

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 02:43 PM
Minoan Greece Ayios Charalambos [#17]
4400-3700 BP

I5 10034C, 16129A, 16148T, 16186T, 16223T, 16391A
source:

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

I5 look west asian in origin .

bets regards
adam

Tz85
12-26-2016, 02:50 PM
What's your ethnic background, exactly?

Fathers side Italian, Germanic. Moms side Italian, Jewish, and Slav

Tz85
12-26-2016, 02:50 PM
Minoan Greece Ayios Charalambos [#17]
4400-3700 BP

I5 10034C, 16129A, 16148T, 16186T, 16223T, 16391A
source:

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

I5 look west asian in origin .

bets regards
adam
I5a Edit
Haplogroup I5a
Possible time of origin 15,116 4,128 Before Present (Behar 2012b)
Possible place of origin Insufficient Data
Ancestor I5
Defining mutations T5074C, C16148T (Behar & Family Tree DNA 2012)
GenBank ID Population Source
FJ348190 Hutterite Pichler 2008
JQ701894 - Behar 2012b
JQ704768 - Behar 2012b
JQ245733 Dubai Fernandes 2012
JQ245772 Turkey Fernandes 2012
JQ245780 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245781 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245782 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245783 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245784 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245785 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245786 Yemen Fernandes 2012

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 02:51 PM
Fathers side Italian, Germanic. Moms side Italian, Jewish, and Slav

Jugding from the flags on your profile, am I right to assume your paternal ancestors were from Sicily? If so, would you care to tell us which part of Sicily they came from? Just curious.

Erik
12-26-2016, 02:51 PM
Fathers side Italian, Germanic. Moms side Italian, Jewish, and Slav

So I'm assuming this Sinai haplogroup of yours is from the Italian side?

Erik
12-26-2016, 02:52 PM
Jugding from the flags on your profile, am I right to assume your paternal ancestors were from Sicily? If so, would you care to tell us which part of Sicily they came from? Just curious.

Jewsync ;)

Tz85
12-26-2016, 02:54 PM
So I'm assuming this Sinai haplogroup of yours is from the Italian side?

This is correct. My direct paternal was from Naples, Italy.

Tz85
12-26-2016, 02:56 PM
Jugding from the flags on your profile, am I right to assume your paternal ancestors were from Sicily? If so, would you care to tell us which part of Sicily they came from? Just curious.

My father's Italian is from Naples. My mothers side is pretty extensive, Aquila, Abruzzo, Cosenza, Calabria, and Sicily.

Tz85
12-26-2016, 03:03 PM
As far as Jewish ancestry on my mom's side, for certain one of my Polish, Ukrainian grand parents was fully Jewish. However their is some Sephardic as well. My mom consistently shows 20-30% Sephardic from Anatolia. My guess is that one of my Italian lines was either an Albanian of Turkish Jewish origin or Assryian Jewish.

Il Pap
12-26-2016, 03:03 PM
First off, my ydna is E-V12*, which is totally non European, not V13. Secondly, My mtdna I5a which is found in Yemeni samples, must I give you sources? Not all of I is Eurasian, considering I originates in West Asia. Thirdly, me being Jewish has absolutely nothing to do with my ydna. I'm Jewish from my mothers side. Just some fyi.

It has also been found in 3 Minoans remains ;)

raspberry
12-26-2016, 04:08 PM
First off, my ydna is E-V12*, which is totally non European, not V13. Secondly, My mtdna I5a which is found in Yemeni samples, must I give you sources? Not all of I is Eurasian, considering I originates in West Asia. Thirdly, me being Jewish has absolutely nothing to do with my ydna. I'm Jewish from my mothers side. Just some fyi.

Also mtdna H is of West Asian origin (most common mtdna of Near East people, in the Arabian Peninsula its reaching its highest value in Oman (13.3%) and its lowest, again, in Yemen (7.2%), Within Saudi Arabia, the highest frequencies are in the Northern and Central regions (9.3%) and the lowest in the West region (2.8%), being CRS, H2a1 and H6 the most abundant subclades which confirm other authors results), like nearly any other mt-haplogroup existing in Europe. And since when are Yemenis hebrew? Yemenite Jews are Himjarites who converted during ancient times and Arabians are not the same as Hebrews so its invalid.

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 04:13 PM
tell it to yemanite jews in the face
that they are a bunch of convert .....
i am not sure they are converts :\
regards
Adam


maybe agamemnon knows ???

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 04:19 PM
Teimanim are likely to be descended from Himyarite converts for the most part, yes. They do have actual Jewish ancestry however.

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 04:21 PM
ok nice to know ,
they are indid much darker than other jewish communities :)
regards
adam

raspberry
12-26-2016, 04:29 PM
ok nice to know ,
they are indid much darker than other jewish communities :)
regards
adam
When you are talking about jews it is not helpful to talk about phenotypical aspects. An Ethiopian Jew is even darker :D, so I think it is not an argument.

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 04:38 PM
Yes, I think raspberry is right on this (besides, I've seen some Teimanim who looked like carbon copies of my grandfather), this is not an anthroboard, let's strive to be objective.

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 04:43 PM
there is a big doubt the ethiopian jews are not converts .....
regards
adam

p.s

i believe the original hebrews were olive skin but not darker than that
they were east -med people after all.....

http://www.simchajtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/BF_Group_Shot_001.jpg

raspberry
12-26-2016, 04:49 PM
If yemenite jews are "pure" Arabians than I have to admit that I am not Arabian. I am more like these people on the pictures (from skin, eyes etc.)
13324

13325

13326

Tz85
12-26-2016, 04:59 PM
Also mtdna H is of West Asian origin (most common mtdna of Near East people, in the Arabian Peninsula its reaching its highest value in Oman (13.3%) and its lowest, again, in Yemen (7.2%), Within Saudi Arabia, the highest frequencies are in the Northern and Central regions (9.3%) and the lowest in the West region (2.8%), being CRS, H2a1 and H6 the most abundant subclades which confirm other authors results), like nearly any other mt-haplogroup existing in Europe. And since when are Yemenis hebrew? Yemenite Jews are Himjarites who converted during ancient times and Arabians are not the same as Hebrews so its invalid.

When did I say my direct mtdna was Jewish? You made a comment stating I5a was not levantine, and I showed you that it was. I didn't say anything about I5a being Jewish.

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 05:04 PM
your direct maternal line is south italian ?
regards
adam

Tz85
12-26-2016, 05:06 PM
your direct maternal line is south italian ?
regards
adam

From Pratola Peligna, Abruzzo.

Awale
12-26-2016, 05:08 PM
there is a big doubt the ethiopian jews are not converts .....
regards
adam

Genomically, they're basically just Somalis with 10-20% Ari (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/06/the-african-west-eurasian-elements-in.html) Blacksmith-like admixture plus some 10-15% Copt/Yemenite Jew-like admixture (see here (https://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/04/the-jewishness-of-ethiopian-jews_7.html?), here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/06/the-african-west-eurasian-elements-in.html) and here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/05/using-somalis-as-proxy-second-attempt.html)). Plus, their native tongues were Central-Cushitic/Agw (dialects of Qimant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qimant_language)) whilst their historical written language was Ge'ez, like with most pre-Early Modern Northern Highlanders. Though I've read of reports that they used to sometimes transcribe their own Central-Cushitic dialects with the Ge'ez script... Anyway, it's indeed somewhat doubted that they're even "real historical converts" because of some of these non-genomic facts. Some think they're just Northern Highlander Christians practicing some weird "Old-testament" form of the local Christianity, coupled with some old pagan elements.

But who knows... Genetically, culturally and linguistically they're really just Ethiopians though. I'm quite serious when I say their material culture and some of their customs historically had more in common with the material culture and certain customs of Somalis all the way in Mogadishu than with Yemenite Jews or Western Jews at any point in time. In fact, Habeshas, like Tigrinya member Lank (http://www.anthrogenica.com/member.php?37-Lank), are slightly closer, genetically speaking, to Western & Eastern Jews than Ethiopian Jews are.


If yemenite jews are "pure" Arabians than I have to admit that I am not Arabian. I am more like these people on the pictures (from skin, eyes etc.)

Genetically they are indeed pretty "Arabian" and cluster closely to Negev Bedouins, various Qatari Arabs and the like.

Tz85
12-26-2016, 05:16 PM
My direct lines that are Southern Italian are Levantine in origin. This is no surprise to me at all. My Fathers line had a clear migration imo. From Sinai Egypt to Greece to Italy or Sinai with the Semites eventually to Italy.

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 05:17 PM
awale, thanks for information:)
my y haplogroup e-m34 is common in ethiopia
no one knows if it originated in ethiopia , egypt , or levant
best regards
adam

AnnieD
12-26-2016, 05:18 PM
Aren't you all tired with kingjohn nonsense ?

best regards
Il Pap

Does a <0.1% Ashkenazi in spec mode on notorious chromo 6 @ 23andMe qualify me to intrude on this thread briefly to inquire of "King John":

Your avatar - British King John?
Your comment on the photo thread that you "don't even like Europeans" ... :fencing:
Your frequent presence on numerous AuDNA threads interpreting European member's results ...
Your Eurogenes email to me on this site upon your sign-up that you love King John - really admire the guy & British history - hence the choice of avatar ...

Err, will the real anthro-King John please stand up? :confused: As a mostly British diaspora, I feel betrayed. LOL! From now on, I'm only cavorting on AuDNA matters with peasants or paupers, no "Kings"!

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 05:19 PM
My direct lines that are Southern Italian are Levantine in origin. This is no surprise to me at all. My Fathers line had a clear migration imo. From Sinai Egypt to Greece to Italy or Sinai with the Semites eventually to Italy.

from where do you think your mom score sefhardic and persian jews in dna tribes results
from her italian maybe ??
regards
Adam

raspberry
12-26-2016, 05:22 PM
Genomically, they're basically just Somalis with 10-20% Ari (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/06/the-african-west-eurasian-elements-in.html) Blacksmith-like admixture plus some 10-15% Copt/Yemenite Jew-like admixture (see here (https://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/04/the-jewishness-of-ethiopian-jews_7.html?), here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/06/the-african-west-eurasian-elements-in.html) and here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/05/using-somalis-as-proxy-second-attempt.html)). Plus, their native tongues were Central-Cushitic/Agw (dialects of Qimant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qimant_language)) whilst their historical written language was Ge'ez, like with most pre-Early Modern Northern Highlanders. Though I've read of reports that they used to sometimes transcribe their own Central-Cushitic dialects with the Ge'ez script... Anyway, it's indeed somewhat doubted that they're even "real historical converts" because of some of these non-genomic facts. Some think they're just Northern Highlander Christians practicing some weird "Old-testament" form of the local Christianity, coupled with some old pagan elements.

But who knows... Genetically, culturally and linguistically they're really just Ethiopians though. I'm quite serious when I say their material culture and some of their customs historically had more in common with the material culture of Somalis all the way in Mogadishu than with Yemenite Jews or Western Jews at any point in time. In fact, Habeshas like Tigrinya member Lank (http://www.anthrogenica.com/member.php?37-Lank) are slightly closer, genetically speaking, to Western & Eastern Jews than Ethiopian Jews are.



Genetically they are indeed pretty "Arabian" and cluster closely to Negev Bedouins, various Qatari Arabs and the like.

But they look a little different then other Arabians. Their face form is different (like a triangle, very sharp chins etc.) and thus I think the Arabian admixture should be reworked and if needed improved with more central and east Arabian city Arab samples. Also if you look into the face of for example Faisal of Hejaz (I relate more to these kind of Arabians phenotypical (not political)) it looks very distant from the Yemeni Jew.

13327

13328
-
A Yemeni Jew
13329

Tz85
12-26-2016, 05:25 PM
from where do you think your mom score sefhardic and persian jews in dna tribes results
from her italian maybe ??
regards
Adam

My guess is from my direct lines husbands line. So my maternal Great Grandfathers. Considering my mom scores 20-30% on many calculators, it's gotta be pretty recent. From the photos I've seen, they don't look Italian at all, even though their names are Italian.

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 05:27 PM
Does a <0.1% Ashkenazi in spec mode on notorious chromo 6 @ 23andMe qualify me to intrude on this thread briefly to inquire of "King John":

Your avatar - British King John?
Your comment on the photo thread that you "don't even like Europeans" ... :fencing:
Your frequent presence on numerous AuDNA threads interpreting European member's results ...
Your Eurogenes email to me on this site upon your sign-up that you love King John - really admire the guy & British history - hence the choice of avatar ...

Err, will the real anthro-King John please stand up? :confused: As a mostly British diaspora, I feel betrayed. LOL! From now on, I'm only cavorting on AuDNA matters with peasants or paupers, no "Kings"!


dear annie ,
my mtdna h3ap this varient found in britain{england ,scotland} maybe thats why i chose this name :)
about the europeans i have 2 options to aquire european citizenship
but i never will go back to europe ... to live there
my grandmother is asckenazi { crusades, black death ,} my grandfather is sefhardic i have matche with mexican
meanning that some of the spanish conquistadors had sefhardic dna {any way Inquisition burning of my ancestors on the stake}
so you can see i have my resons to not like europe . ;)

anyway if you were ofended i am sorry.......:(
regards
adam

vettor
12-26-2016, 05:39 PM
My guess is from my direct lines husbands line. So my maternal Great Grandfathers. Considering my mom scores 20-30% on many calculators, it's gotta be pretty recent. From the photos I've seen, they don't look Italian at all, even though their names are Italian.

This site might be of use

http://www.sephardicgen.com/italy_sites.htm

AnnieD
12-26-2016, 05:42 PM
so you can see i have my resons to not like europe . ;)

Thought I was going to have to charge you with high treason ... ;)
Understood, & my sympathies for the tribulations that your family has endured. :( I can't speak for the real King John, but no offense taken on my end.

Power77
12-26-2016, 05:50 PM
I wonder how Jewish Kaifeng/Chinese Jews are? What are their haplos and autosomal makeup? Maybe Aga' knows the answer;).

Tz85
12-26-2016, 05:54 PM
This site might be of use

http://www.sephardicgen.com/italy_sites.htm

My great grandfathers line is from Cosenza, Calabria. At one time had a very large Jewish community.

Erik
12-26-2016, 06:17 PM
I wonder how Jewish Kaifeng/Chinese Jews are? What are their haplos and autosomal makeup? Maybe Aga' knows the answer;).

I'd estimate they'd be largely Chinese-like with some minor Persian Jewish ancestry, maybe some other things thrown in like Central Asian.

raspberry
12-26-2016, 06:19 PM
I'd estimate they'd be largely Chinese-like with some minor Persian Jewish ancestry, maybe some other things thrown in like Central Asian.

They are not native to China, they went there 200-300 years ago as merchants from all other Jewish diasporas. There will be still something European (and mediterranean) in them. The same with Indian Jews.

Erik
12-26-2016, 06:22 PM
They are not native to China, they went there 200-300 years ago as merchants from all other Jewish diasporas. There will be still something European in them. The same with Indian Jews.

I doubt much European ancestry since they wouldn't likely descend from the western variety of Jews.

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 07:30 PM
dell sanchez a hispanic who search
the sefharadic/anousim roots of mexican
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiCLymjan88

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_de_Carvajal_y_de_la_Cueva
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_de_O%C3%B1ate

regards
adam
"
p.s
i match dell sanchez in chromsoome 7 11cm segment
so some of the conquistadors had some sefhardic roots dna .
for 170 period the mexican Inquisition
regards
adam

many sefhardic lived as catholics ....:(

Tz85
12-26-2016, 07:36 PM
dell sanchez a hispanic who search
the sefharadic/anousim roots of mexican
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiCLymjan88

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_de_Carvajal_y_de_la_Cueva
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_de_O%C3%B1ate

regards
adam
"
p.s
i match dell sanchez in chromsoome 7 11cm segment
so some of the conquistadors had some sefhardic roots dna .
for 170 period the mexican Inquisition
regards
adam

many sefhardic lived as catholics ....:(

He's on Gedmatch?

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 07:39 PM
Raspberry, why did you put the picture of a nazi collaborator as your avatar? Are you trying to make a statement with this?

Power77
12-26-2016, 07:48 PM
Raspberry, why did you put the picture of a nazi collaborator as your avatar? Are you trying to make a statement with this?

Now I see why he seemed so offended by the fact that I called Hitler "Shitler":rofl:!

Power77
12-26-2016, 07:49 PM
Raspberry, why did you put the picture of a nazi collaborator as your avatar? Are you trying to make a statement with this?

And BTW, his avatar even looks ike a Nazi flag! The ONLY difference being that instead of having a swatiska, it has the face of the Mufti of Jerusalem!!!

raspberry
12-26-2016, 07:56 PM
Raspberry, why did you put the picture of a nazi collaborator as your avatar? Are you trying to make a statement with this?

Hajj Amin al-Husseini was Arab and was also carrier of the R1b haplogroup like me. al-Husseini himself was not an ideological Fascist. So no I am not trying to make a statement. I am not interested in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and also support non of the sides. This picture will change as soon as I have a found a more iconic picture for my avatar.

Agamemnon
12-26-2016, 08:01 PM
Hajj Amin al-Husseini was Arab and was also carrier of the R1b haplogroup like me. al-Husseini himself was not an ideological Fascist. So no I am not trying to make a statement. I am not interested in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and also support non of the sides. This picture will change as soon as I have a found a more iconic picture for my avatar.

Do you have a source for this? Just curious. BTW he very much was an ideologue with close affinities to Nazism, he actively participated in the Holocaust and was a full-time anti-Jewish rabble-rouser and agitator, he had a lot of blood on his hands.

raspberry
12-26-2016, 08:04 PM
Do you have a source for this? Just curious. BTW he very much was an ideologue with close affinities to Nazism, he actively participated in the Holocaust and was a full-time anti-Jewish rabble-rouser and agitator, he had a lot of blood on his hands.

There once was a al-Husseini from Jerusalem (they are prominent in this city (as you may know)) in R-Arabia (could also be the R1b Basal Subclades or R _R1b ALL Subclades) group in Ftdna, so no doubt that it was exactly this family. I dont find him anymore (maybe left?). I dont want to protect him but he was more the moral authority for the Bosnian muslim SS fighters, rather then a KZ leader. And I am not anti-semite.

Tz85
12-26-2016, 08:09 PM
There once was a al-Husseini from Jerusalem (they are prominent in this city (as you may know)) in R-Arabia (could also be the R1b Basal Subclades or R _R1b ALL Subclades) group in Ftdna, so no doubt that it was exactly this family. I dont find him anymore (maybe left?). I dont want to protect him but he was more the moral authority for the Bosnian muslim SS fighters, rather then a KZ leader. And I am not anti-semite.

Are you German?

raspberry
12-26-2016, 08:11 PM
Are you German?
I am a tribal Arab. So no, I am not German. Why should a German even carry R1b-V1636?? Picture is removed so no panic (even though I liked it, if you ignore his collaborating with Fascists).

Erik
12-26-2016, 08:17 PM
Hajj Amin al-Husseini was Arab and was also carrier of the R1b haplogroup like me. al-Husseini himself was not an ideological Fascist. So no I am not trying to make a statement. I am not interested in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and also support non of the sides. This picture will change as soon as I have a found a more iconic picture for my avatar.

Baruch Goldstein was a Jew and was also carrier of the J2a haplogroup like me. Goldstein himself was not anti-Arab, he just did what he felt was right for his people. So no I am not trying to make a statement. I am not interested in the Kahanist-Muslim conflict and also support non of the sides. This picture will change as soon as I have a found a more iconic picture for my avatar.

raspberry
12-26-2016, 08:20 PM
Baruch Goldstein was a Jew and was also carrier of the J2a haplogroup like me. Goldstein himself was not anti-Arab, he just did what he felt was right for his people. So no I am not trying to make a statement. I am not interested in the Kahanist-Muslim conflict and also support non of the sides. This picture will change as soon as I have a found a more iconic picture for my avatar.
Yes sorry you are right it is was not a good decision putting al-Husseini as Avatar. My current picture will also change as soon as I find something better. Why should I even be friends with Jewish people (on Anthrogenica) if I am a Fascist?

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 08:23 PM
now you put this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djemal_Pasha
what so special about him just intrested ?
{at least he is not haj amin}
regards
Adam

p.s

he is not anti-semite i believe him
he is in my friend list

Power77
12-26-2016, 08:25 PM
Yes sorry you are right it is was not a good decision putting al-Husseini as Avatar. My current picture will also change as soon as I find something better. Why should I even be friends with Jewish people (on Anthrogenica) if I am a Fascist?

Do you know if Al-Husseini was R1b-L389 like you or something else:\?

raspberry
12-26-2016, 08:29 PM
Do you know if Al-Husseini was R1b-L389 like you or something else:\?
I dont know anymore what subclade he was.. I think it could be R-M269 but it was during the beginning of this year, right after I got back my y-37 results back. So I wouldnt consider my answer as trustworthy.

Tz85
12-26-2016, 08:29 PM
I am a tribal Arab. So no, I am not German. Why should a German even carry R1b-V1636?? Picture is removed so no panic (even though I liked it, if you ignore his collaborating with Fascists).

Why the German flag? If you're not. Just curious

raspberry
12-26-2016, 08:31 PM
Why the German flag? If you're not. Just curious
My tribe and family was ally of the Central Powers during World War 1. We were of the loyalists of the Caliph and Sultan and were not part of the Arab Revolt (even though the Hashimis defined Midyat (Arabic city north of Mardin) as most northern border of their planned Arabian state, from Yemen in the South to the Jazira (Northmesopotamia) in the north, excluding North-Africa). So that is the only reason. When EVEN West Anatolian provinces were falling Mossul stood like an unconquerable castle in Mesopotamia until 1918 (the year in wich the war ended). Talking about al-Husseini: also he was part of the Ottoman Imperial Army (artillery officer) and his family were loyalists of the Sultan and Caliph until the End of the Empire.

Power77
12-26-2016, 08:35 PM
I dont now anymore what subclade he was.. I think it could be R-M269 but it was during the beginning of this year, right after I got back my y-37 results back. So I wouldnt consider my answer as trustworthy.

He may have been R1b-Z2103 then;).

raspberry
12-26-2016, 08:44 PM
He may have been R1b-Z2103 then;).
As already said: I am not sure, it could have also been only R-M343 without any determined subclade of R1b, I dont remember anymore. But it is not a surprise, R1b is of Near Eastern origin and the Near east is its native home. The European R1b came over the Caucasus to Europe as more advanced fighters (Indo-Europeans, R-L21) and literally invaded the lands of the Proto-Europeans of the haplogroup I and pushed them into minority.

Power77
12-26-2016, 08:59 PM
As already said: I am not sure, it could have also been only R-M343 without any determined subclade of R1b, I dont remember anymore. But it is not a surprise, R1b is of Near Eastern origin and the Near east is its native home.

Being a Levantine Arab, Al-Husseini was most likely either a R1b-Z2103 or R1b-L389 carrier. And BTW, R1b is more of a Pontic-Caspian or even Eastern European lineage than a Near Eastern one.

raspberry
12-26-2016, 09:02 PM
Being a Levantine Arab, Al-Husseini was most likely either a R1b-Z2103 or R1b-L389 carrier. An BTW, R1b is more of a Pontic-Caspian or even Eastern European lineage than a Near Eastern one.

Scientist opinions changed on this. The V88 (basal clades in general) clade is overthrowing this usual and outdated view. Still we will see for sure in the further years. Assuming that r1b is from Southeast-Anatolia it would everything make more sense (spread of R1b clades etc.). Wikipedia is mentioning already West Asia as place of origin (German Wikipedia, still shows the mythological "Central Asian" origins beside the relatively recent West Asia origin region).

Power77
12-26-2016, 09:05 PM
Scientist opinions changed on this. The V88 (basal clades in general) clade is overthrowing this usual and outdated view.

How so? R1b-V88 has not been found in any Near Eastern ancient remains so far>:(!

raspberry
12-26-2016, 09:10 PM
How so? R1b-V88 has not been found in any Near Eastern ancient remains so far>:(!
Most of R1b subclades are found in ancient Near Eastern remains:
The oldest forms of R1b (M343 (defining SNP of R1b), P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age. The three main branches of R1b1 (R1b1a, R1b1b, R1b1c) all seem to have stemmed from the Middle East.
The southern branch, R1b1c (V88), is found mostly in the Levant and Africa. The northern branch, R1b1a (P297), seems to have originated around the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia, then to have crossed over the Caucasus, from where they would have invaded Europe and Central Asia. R1b1b (M335) has only been found in Anatolia.
It has been hypothetised that R1b people (perhaps alongside neighbouring J2/J1 tribes) were the first to domesticate cattle in northern Mesopotamia some 10,500 years ago. R1b tribes descended from mammoth hunters, and when mammoths went extinct, they started hunting other large game such as bisons and aurochs. We are drifting away from the topic..

Power77
12-26-2016, 09:17 PM
Most of R1b subclades are found in ancient Near Eastern remains:
The oldest forms of R1b (M343 (defining SNP of R1b), P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age. The three main branches of R1b1 (R1b1a, R1b1b, R1b1c) all seem to have stemmed from the Middle East.
The southern branch, R1b1c (V88), is found mostly in the Levant and Africa. The northern branch, R1b1a (P297), seems to have originated around the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia, then to have crossed over the Caucasus, from where they would have invaded Europe and Central Asia. R1b1b (M335) has only been found in Anatolia.
It has been hypothetised that R1b people (perhaps alongside neighbouring J2/J1 tribes) were the first to domesticate cattle in northern Mesopotamia some 10,500 years ago. R1b tribes descended from mammoth hunters, and when mammoths went extinct, they started hunting other large game such as bisons and aurochs. We are drifting away from the topic..

Your claims about R1b are very remniscent of those of Maciamo Hay on the same subject:D! Modern frequencies mean absolutely nothing, as ancient DNA has shown us lately. That being said, I agree that we are drifting away from the topic;).

raspberry
12-26-2016, 09:29 PM
Your claims about R1b are very remniscent of those of Maciamo Hay on the same subject:D! Modern frequencies mean absolutely nothing, as ancient DNA has shown us lately. That being said, I agree that we are drifting away from the topic;).

it is from him (Maciamo Hay) and this was not just invented by me. The further years will show..

kingjohn
12-26-2016, 09:38 PM
He's on Gedmatch?

yes .
best regards
adam


p.s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Sanchez

Tz85
12-26-2016, 10:57 PM
yes .
best regards
adam


p.s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Sanchez

I don't see his kit# anywhere

kingjohn
12-27-2016, 06:55 AM
i will send you emaill with his kit number:
i don't want to expose his kit number in this forum
with all due respect.:\
regards
adam


p.s
i send you now his kit number

Tz85
12-27-2016, 05:08 PM
i will send you emaill with his kit number:
i don't want to expose his kit number in this forum
with all due respect.:\
regards
adam


p.s
i send you now his kit number

My wife, who is Sephardic matches him at 7.7 42cM total. My mom matches him 40cM total, but no segment over 5cM

vettor
12-27-2016, 06:01 PM
How true is it for jewish society that

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=FB08DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=LT+haplogroup&source=bl&ots=6h5Mx9gkVw&sig=uuBnbfYGe4X6IyNkoA90c8EC2-A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8862ggZTRAhWCHpQKHUtzD08Q6AEIaDAJ#v=on epage&q=LT%20haplogroup&f=false


Madai, falls into the area where the T project people state as a possible beginning of T after slitting from LT group

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Noahsworld_map_Version2.png

kingjohn
12-27-2016, 06:40 PM
My wife, who is Sephardic matches him at 7.7 42cM total. My mom matches him 40cM total, but no segment over 5cM

he is afcorse a sefhardic anousim mexican descendnts :)
if your wife and both me matches him......
most of my matches are aschenazi
but those mexicans matches i have including in my x chromosome are pointing to shared sefhardic anousim ancestors
no wonder i like the movie aguirre so much.:)
so conquistadors who conqure south america were anousim to some extent they lived catholic outside.
if you were caught practice judaisem you would be burned on the stake they had no choise but to hide :(
best regards
adam

Tz85
12-27-2016, 09:28 PM
he is afcorse a sefhardic anousim mexican descendnts :)
if your wife and both me matches him......
most of my matches are aschenazi
but those mexicans matches i have including in my x chromosome are pointing to shared sefhardic anousim ancestors
no wonder i like the movie aguirre so much.:)
so conquistadors who conqure south america were anousim to some extent they lived catholic outside.
if you were caught practice judaisem you would be burned on the stake they had no choise but to hide :(
best regards
adam

My wife is Puerto Rican, with confirmed Sephardic ancestry. Since he is also Spanish, it could be from that, but it could be from either.

Principe
12-28-2016, 04:22 AM
he is afcorse a sefhardic anousim mexican descendnts :)
if your wife and both me matches him......
most of my matches are aschenazi
but those mexicans matches i have including in my x chromosome are pointing to shared sefhardic anousim ancestors
no wonder i like the movie aguirre so much.:)
so conquistadors who conqure south america were anousim to some extent they lived catholic outside.
if you were caught practice judaisem you would be burned on the stake they had no choise but to hide :(
best regards
adam

The Spanish Inquisition was a terrible and shameful period in human history, the Jews of Iberia, Southern Italy and Sicily suffered a lot, I have been doing a lot of genealogical work for my paternal ancestor, and I can tell you that as each year passed conditions got terrible, things really started to escalate from the 1460's onwards in Southern Italy (95% of my research is done there). Luckily we have dna and can now know the truth about our ancestors and reconnect with our roots.

Lugus
12-28-2016, 06:20 AM
The Spanish Inquisition was a terrible and shameful period in human history, the Jews of Iberia, Southern Italy and Sicily suffered a lot, I have been doing a lot of genealogical work for my paternal ancestor, and I can tell you that as each year passed conditions got terrible, things really started to escalate from the 1460's onwards in Southern Italy (95% of my research is done there). Luckily we have dna and can now know the truth about our ancestors and reconnect with our roots.

It's funny how the Portuguese Inquisition always gets off the hook. In the long term the Inquisition's effects were far worse for the Iberian peoples as a whole than for the the real or imagined Jews (or New Christians) and I believe the "Jewish problem" in Iberia and especially in Portugal was grossly exaggerated, as always. I share with lots of Portuguese in 23andme and hardly anyone has any traces of "Ashkenazi". I myself have 0.0% as both my parents. Some Latin Americans indeed seem to have a bit more, but I've never seen significant amounts (more than 2%).

kingjohn
12-28-2016, 11:22 AM
dear lugus,
i am not thinking about aschenazi admixture in mexicans which is extremely low as you mention
but sefhardic anousim one which
can only explain my matches with some mexicans in gedmatch and other in ftdna family finder
given that my grandfather was sefhardic {who spoke ladino}
1+1=2 :)
best regards
adam

Tz85
12-28-2016, 01:25 PM
Most Sephardi I've seen do share Ashkenazi admixture. My wife for example matches many Ashkenazi Jews. I would think it's kinda impossible for a Sephardi not to.

kingjohn
12-28-2016, 01:48 PM
ok but i remind you that i score 6.2% iberian in dna land
so the source for the match could be iberian allells
now check this out i put black balld under the important sentences
the description of the southern european componnet also include this
they mention sefhardics 13354

regards
Adam

:

Principe
12-28-2016, 05:23 PM
It's funny how the Portuguese Inquisition always gets off the hook. In the long term the Inquisition's effects were far worse for the Iberian peoples as a whole than for the the real or imagined Jews (or New Christians) and I believe the "Jewish problem" in Iberia and especially in Portugal was grossly exaggerated, as always. I share with lots of Portuguese in 23andme and hardly anyone has any traces of "Ashkenazi". I myself have 0.0% as both my parents. Some Latin Americans indeed seem to have a bit more, but I've never seen significant amounts (more than 2%).

I can only imagine when did the Inquisition actually end in Portugal? Maybe or maybe not there was 10x the amount of Jews and Neofiti living in the Iberian peninsula than Southern Italy&Sicily, isn't there the story of Belmonte in Portugal? Also I have a friend who his paternal side is from Faro and he told me his great grandparents were crypto-Jews. It doesn't necessarily mean anything I grew up with and have many Portugese friends he was the only to tell me anything like that and it's because I mentioned what I have. What do you think is the genetic impact of Jewish heritage in Portugal? I did it for Southern Italy & Sicily and I got to a number 1.8% (I'll round it out to 2% just to sound easier) are either direct descendants (Y and Mt) or part descent (autosomal).

kingjohn
12-28-2016, 05:30 PM
i believe some portuguase have sefhardic segments
take example

Comparing Kit M722730 (Meir Touitou) and T040620 (Edward Couto Jr.)

Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 700 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 700 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 7.0 cM


Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
18 69,638,945 -74,167,349 14.6 818
Largest segment = 14.6 cM
Total of segments > 7 cM = 14.6 cM
1 matching segments
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 5.0

raspberry
12-28-2016, 05:53 PM
i believe some portuguase have sefhardic segments
take example

Comparing Kit M722730 (Meir Touitou) and T040620 (Edward Couto Jr.)

Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 700 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 700 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 7.0 cM


Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
18 69,638,945 -74,167,349 14.6 818
Largest segment = 14.6 cM
Total of segments > 7 cM = 14.6 cM
1 matching segments
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 5.0

And I believe some Sephardis have Portugese inside them.

Erik
12-28-2016, 06:00 PM
And I believe some Sephardis have Portugese inside them.

It's possible, but tests haven't shown a significant presence of Iberian admixture in Sephardim. But when it comes to the Marranos, you'd be absolutely correct.

raspberry
12-28-2016, 06:02 PM
It's possible, but tests haven't shown a significant presence of Iberian admixture in Sephardim. But when it comes to the Marranos, you'd be absolutely correct.

Than why are they using Sephardi as Iberian references (for example on DNA land)? They are more native to Iberia then to their assumed homeland (Levant), not only the Sephardis, also their Ethiopian and Yemenite Jewish (also these people are too often (always) used as Arabian references) relatives are more native (genetically) to their guest land.

Erik
12-28-2016, 06:10 PM
Than why are they using Sephardi as Iberian references (for example on DNA land)? They are more native to Iberia then to their assumed homeland (Levant), not only the Sephardis, also their Ethiopian and Yemenite Jewish relatives are more native (genetically) to their guest land.

Since when do they use Sephardi as a reference for Iberian?
I agree that Yemenites and Ethiopians are genetically closest to where they lived before Israel, however this is not the case with Sephardim. Sephardic Jews generally plot right next to Ashkenazi Jews, in fact they're slightly more Near Eastern shifted.

raspberry
12-28-2016, 06:16 PM
Since when do they use Sephardi as a reference for Iberian?
I agree that Yemenites and Ethiopians are genetically closest to where they lived before Israel, however this is not the case with Sephardim. Sephardic Jews generally plot right next to Ashkenazi Jews, in fact they're slightly more Near Eastern shifted.
kingjohn posted a screenshot of what "South European" does include as references on Ftdna: Sephardic was mentioned as a used reference, why should they do that if they are so different from other South Europeans?

Tz85
12-28-2016, 06:17 PM
Sephardi plot just slightly closer to Near Eastern, While Ashkenazi tighly to Soutern Italians, and Sicilians, not so much Iberian. Sephardi and Ashkenazi cluster very close.

kingjohn
12-28-2016, 06:31 PM
kingjohn posted a screenshot of what "South European" does include as references on Ftdna: Sephardic was mentioned as a used reference, why should they do that if they are so different from other South Europeans?

sefhardi are more diverse than aschenazi
and thats why it is more hard to do a sefhardic diaspora cluster
like the aschenazi diaspora cluster .
i agree with you admixture usually goes both ways it is also possible
that sefhardi jews have iberian dna.

in dna tribes snp test{the new one} for example i score 12% sefhardi
and no iberian or basque
but in dna land that they dont have sefhardic refrences those sefhardic allells goes to the iberian cluster .
so to the answewre i believe sefhardic jews do have iberian allells {snp}
jews were in iberia for a long time 1000 years so there was some mixture.... :)
jews were in portugal much before 1492-1497 : http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-sites-places/biblical-archaeology-places/hebrew-inscription-provides-oldest-archaeological-evidence-of-jews-in-iberia/
regrads
Adam

raspberry
12-28-2016, 06:40 PM
sefhardi are more diverse than aschenazi
and thats why it is more hard to do a sefhardic diaspora cluster
like the aschenazi diaspora cluster .
i agree with you admixture usually goes both ways it is also possible
that sefhardi jews have iberian dna.

in dna tribes snp test{the new one} for example i score 12% sefhardi
and no iberian or basque
but in dna land that they dont have sefhardic refrences those sefhardic allells goes to the iberian cluster .
so to the answewre i believe sefhardic jews do have iberian allells {snp}
jews were in iberia for a long time 1000 years so there was some mixture.... :)
jews were in portugal much before 1492-1497 : http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-sites-places/biblical-archaeology-places/hebrew-inscription-provides-oldest-archaeological-evidence-of-jews-in-iberia/
regrads
Adam
This was what I said and meant :D.

Lugus
12-28-2016, 07:23 PM
ok but i remind you that i score 6.2% iberian in dna land
so the source for the match could be iberian allells
now check this out i put black balld under the important sentences
the description of the southern european componnet also include this
they mention sefhardics 13354

regards
Adam

:

It's possible that Jews, both Sephardic and Ashkenazi, have more Iberian in them than the other way around.

Lugus
12-28-2016, 07:47 PM
I can only imagine when did the Inquisition actually end in Portugal? Maybe or maybe not there was 10x the amount of Jews and Neofiti living in the Iberian peninsula than Southern Italy&Sicily, isn't there the story of Belmonte in Portugal? Also I have a friend who his paternal side is from Faro and he told me his great grandparents were crypto-Jews. It doesn't necessarily mean anything I grew up with and have many Portugese friends he was the only to tell me anything like that and it's because I mentioned what I have. What do you think is the genetic impact of Jewish heritage in Portugal? I did it for Southern Italy & Sicily and I got to a number 1.8% (I'll round it out to 2% just to sound easier) are either direct descendants (Y and Mt) or part descent (autosomal).

Almost every second (idiot) Portuguese will say or think he's descended from crypto-Jews. Only very few can actually produce any serious evidence to support the claim and when they can, we're usually talking about isolated communities in the northeast of the country, near the Spanish border. It's only a handful of people and until recently they were just religiously syncretic.

The Inquisition lasted in Portugal almost 300 years and I believe most committed Jews had enough time to leave the country during that period. The ones who didn't just assimilated without much of a trace. When the discriminatory laws and the Inquisition were abolished, suddenly there were no Jews to be seen.

kingjohn
12-28-2016, 08:12 PM
Almost every second (idiot) Portuguese will say or think he's descended from crypto-Jews. Only very few can actually produce any serious evidence to support the claim and when they can, we're usually talking about isolated communities in the northeast of the country, near the Spanish border. It's only a handful of people and until recently they were just religiously syncretic.

The Inquisition lasted in Portugal almost 300 years and I believe most committed Jews had enough time to leave the country during that period. The ones who didn't just assimilated without much of a trace. When the discriminatory laws and the Inquisition were abolished, suddenly there were no Jews to be seen.

what do you think of there shared segment on chromsome 18
Comparing Kit M722730 (Meir Touitou) and T040620 (Edward Couto Jr.)

Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 700 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 700 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 7.0 cM


Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
18 69,638,945 -74,167,349 14.6 818
Largest segment = 14.6 cM
Total of segments > 7 cM = 14.6 cM
1 matching segments
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 5.0


and this meir.t he is only half algerian jew his other half is buchara
as jews lived in isolated communities more like that a portuguase jew will convert to catholic faith than the other way a round
just like aschenazi shared segments with poles and lithaunian.

Lugus
12-28-2016, 08:38 PM
what do you think of there shared segment on chromsome 18
Comparing Kit M722730 (Meir Touitou) and T040620 (Edward Couto Jr.)

Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 700 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 700 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 7.0 cM


Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
18 69,638,945 -74,167,349 14.6 818
Largest segment = 14.6 cM
Total of segments > 7 cM = 14.6 cM
1 matching segments
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 5.0


and this meir.t he is only half algerian jew his other half is buchara
as jews lived in isolated communities more like that a portuguase jew will convert to catholic faith than the other way a round
just like aschenazi shared segments with poles and lithaunian.

I'm not saying there isn't any Jewish ancestry in modern Portuguese (or Spaniards), what I'm saying is that it is much smaller than some people think. At least I haven't seen much serious evidence of it in spite of the studies published. The isolated communities I mentioned were not Jewish communities but just remote and backward places far from the main cities where both New and Old Christians lived together. I visited one of those places and have met people who claim to be anussim. Some of them are, or were. Fortunately nowadays you can be what you want.

kingjohn
12-28-2016, 09:46 PM
it will never be huge
as jews were always minority and always isolated
from the non-jewish portuguase{ so chanches for geneflow are low}.
now i will tell that that my mother surname capon i ask someone who
is expert and he said to me my sefhardic roots are in portugal.
so if i want i can have portuguase citizenship :)
but don't wory i will not go for it
i will never return to europe ever...... ;)

kingjohn
12-28-2016, 10:32 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_Massacre :(

Tltos
12-29-2016, 03:53 AM
kingjohn posted a screenshot of what "South European" does include as references on Ftdna: Sephardic was mentioned as a used reference, why should they do that if they are so different from other South Europeans?

Sephardic is not a reference on FTDNA. If you scroll down to the middle of Kitty Cooper's blog you will see the list of populations that are used in myOrigins. http://blog.kittycooper.com/2014/05/the-myorigins-feature-at-familytreedna/

I am pretty certain that DNA Land does not have any Sephardic population sample. I cannot find their list of populations right now. If someone can find them and post that would be great. Dr. McDonald is one of the few that had Sephardic samples for his calculator. Unfortunately he does not do much analysis these days.

kingjohn
12-29-2016, 05:54 AM
both ftdna and dna land don't have
sefhardic refrences.{you say correct}
sefhardic are more diverse and they didn't experience the huge bottlneck as aschenazi
in mediveal germany.
but why ftdna mention them in ther southern european component ?
best regards
adam

Lugus
12-29-2016, 06:06 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_Massacre :(

That was a long time ago. If you think like that you can't travel much.

kingjohn
12-29-2016, 12:49 PM
i can travell
but the scurs are still
there in the back of my mind :\

regards
adam

p.s
i am very diffrent from other people in my country
who travell to berlin like nothing happen 70 years ago.

Lugus
12-29-2016, 03:39 PM
i can travell
but the scurs are still
there in the back of my mind :\

regards
adam

p.s
i am very diffrent from other people in my country
who travell to berlin like nothing happen 70 years ago.

King John/ Adam, I respect your opinion but I think you're being silly. You're punishing yourself for crimes other people committed. I'm not telling you to go to Germany but you should visit Lisbon, it's an amazing city. If you have Portuguese roots you'll feel them come back to life as soon the plane stars landing.

kingjohn
12-29-2016, 05:25 PM
i believe you my mom was
there and said it is very nice city
regards
adam

Underworld
12-29-2016, 05:35 PM
i can travell
but the scurs are still
there in the back of my mind :\

regards
adam

p.s
i am very diffrent from other people in my country
who travell to berlin like nothing happen 70 years ago.

Oh c'mon buddy don't be like that :(

There were bad times in Iberia but there were also some good ones. For example in the most important battle of the Reconquista, Battle of Las Navas Tolosa, Iberians fought undermanned without the much needed Crusaders (30,000 French and other Europeans) on their side because the crusaders didn't agree with the merciful treatment that Jews got from Alfonso VIII of Castile and went back to their homes across the Pyrenees without fighting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Las_Navas_de_Tolosa

Also, I think most Portuguese have a bit of Sephardic Jewish ancestry, which is why you might get some Portuguese matches. From what I remember, the Portuguese Inquisition was a bit more forgiving than the Spanish one because Jews played a big role in Portuguese society and although some did indeed have to leave the country, others converted to Catholicism and went on with their lives. While I will never try to justify the Inquisition, you also need to understand the "state of mind" of the time. Iberians were divided for centuries by religion and other lines, and when the Reconquista was won, there was a push by Iberian Kings for unification of the population of their respective countries under one religion in order to avoid the Balkanization of Iberia. And most Jews were always given the chance to leave the country if they didn't want to convert to Catholicism, so you weren't exactly "killed", or else you wouldn't be here talking right? :) And there wouldn't be millions of Sephardic Jews descendants throughout the World today, many of which might not know they are part Jewish because they are Catholic but the "blood" is still there (the Latin Americans you were talking about before are an example).

If you want, you can also check facts about the Spanish Inquisition, and you will see that the number of people killed throughout the 400 years of its existence is very low. I'm not an expert, but I remember reading somewhere that the majority of people that were accused of being of the Jewish faith never had anything happen to them. The reason why the Spanish Inquisition is so known today is because of Protestant propaganda.

Anyway, if you have Sephardi roots, I see no reason for you not visiting either Portugal or Spain. These countries are part of your history too :)

Tltos
12-29-2016, 06:20 PM
but why ftdna mention them in ther southern european component ?
best regards
adam
They paint with a broad stroke. :)

kingjohn
12-29-2016, 07:19 PM
underworld thanks for your kind words:)
best regards
adam

p.s
the only
Correction i don't have any portuguase matches
only mexicans and latin matches.
but i am only 1/4 sefhardic so i believe a 50% sefhardic or 100% sefhardic will have portuguase matches.

ADW_1981
12-30-2016, 04:00 PM
We all know for sure that Jews descend from J and sub clades of E-M35. Certainly not R1b or I. Sorry to burst your bubble. All other clades are result of conversion.

R1b-V88 is recent European? Are you sure about that based on data collected from Jordan, Libya, and central Africa?

ADW_1981
12-30-2016, 04:06 PM
Do any of you guys here know if R1b-L389 (the subclade raspberry carries) is found among Jews:\?

If you look in Basal R1b project, a few stand out by surname/name as likely.

N16605
N13771
110387

..etc

ADW_1981
12-30-2016, 04:14 PM
First off, my ydna is E-V12*, which is totally non European, not V13. Secondly, My mtdna I5a which is found in Yemeni samples, must I give you sources? Not all of I is Eurasian, considering I originates in West Asia. Thirdly, me being Jewish has absolutely nothing to do with my ydna. I'm Jewish from my mothers side. Just some fyi.

I2 was *actually found* in Greco-Roman Egypt, and it peaks in NW Europe today. I suspect I5a might be of Iranic origin (not necessarily linguistically). The Bronze Age levant seems to signal the arrival of Iran_Neolithic component that wasn't present in the Natufian or PPN period.

Tz85
12-31-2016, 03:36 AM
I2 was *actually found* in Greco-Roman Egypt, and it peaks in NW Europe today. I suspect I5a might be of Iranic origin (not necessarily linguistically). The Bronze Age levant seems to signal the arrival of Iran_Neolithic component that wasn't present in the Natufian or PPN period.

I5a certainly is not found in NW Europe. I know other mtdna I groups are.

raspberry
01-06-2017, 08:00 PM
I5a certainly is not found in NW Europe. I know other mtdna I groups are.

man just look on a distribution map of your mt-haplogroup. This is what I mean with you see what you want to see..

Tz85
01-06-2017, 09:01 PM
man just look on a distribution map of your mt-haplogroup. This is what I mean with you see what you want to see..

Mtdna I originates in West Asia. Not all carriers of I subclades went North. Not sure what you mean by seeing what I want to see. This line in my family is Sicilian, And Anatolian.

BTW isn't mtdna H European?

Ancestor I5
Defining mutations T5074C, C16148T (Behar & Family Tree DNA 2012)
GenBank ID Population Source
FJ348190 Hutterite Pichler 2008
JQ701894 - Behar 2012b
JQ704768 - Behar 2012b
JQ245733 Dubai Fernandes 2012
JQ245772 Turkey Fernandes 2012
JQ245780 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245781 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245782 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245783 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245784 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245785 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245786 Yemen Fernandes 2012

raspberry
01-06-2017, 09:16 PM
Mtdna I originates in West Asia. Not all carriers of I subclades went North. Not sure what you mean by seeing what I want to see. This line in my family is Sicilian, And Anatolian.

BTW isn't mtdna H European?

Ancestor I5
Defining mutations T5074C, C16148T (Behar & Family Tree DNA 2012)
GenBank ID Population Source
FJ348190 Hutterite Pichler 2008
JQ701894 - Behar 2012b
JQ704768 - Behar 2012b
JQ245733 Dubai Fernandes 2012
JQ245772 Turkey Fernandes 2012
JQ245780 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245781 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245782 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245783 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245784 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245785 Yemen Fernandes 2012
JQ245786 Yemen Fernandes 2012

mtdna H is a West Asian haplogroup in origin. It is also the most common mt-haplogroup in the Near East (~25%) so no, its not European. Are you a "Hebrew" or a "Yemeni":\? What is the point of showing me some Yemenis with this haplogroup?

John Doe
01-06-2017, 09:44 PM
Okay sorry Hebrew for denying your origins. Last time: E-V13 is also carried by Ancient Greeks, Romans, Illyrians. Even Napoleon was E-M35 (found in ancient Natufians), scientists say he is Phoenician and not "Hebrew", but you see what you want to see (same with your mtdna, since when is I Levantine (?) :D). You can claim what ever you want why I am "upset" (?), but making patriotism out of a haplogroups is ridicilous (this is what you are doing). And I like being of the R1b haplogroup as already said. Your y-dna is carried by so many Egyptians, but non of them are seeing themelves as Hebrew (and likely they are not). But still you are saying that you are Hebrew and are ignoring all other facts. When did I deny that Hebrews main y-haplogroups were not J1 and E? I made the example with the Roman guard of Egyptian origin whose grave was found in South-Germany (E-M35).

E-V13 is virtually non existent in Western Jews. Yes, Napoleon belonged to E-M34, it does exist in some regions of Southern Europe, but it's extremely rare, most people who belong to it come from West Asia, not to mention some very specific subclades (like the one that I belong to) that are virtually exclusive to Jews and can be traced to the Near East couple of thousand years ago.

P.S the name "Phoenician" was the name the Greeks and Romans used to call the Canaanite seafaring people of Sidon and Tyre who were related to the Israelites (they were virtually the same until the adoption of Monotheism by the Israelites during the Babylonian exile). Clearly your motivation is political here to deny the evidence, which is quite a shame.

Tz85
01-06-2017, 09:55 PM
mtdna H is a West Asian haplogroup in origin. It is also the most common mt-haplogroup in the Near East (~25%) so no, its not European. Are you a "Hebrew" or a "Yemeni":\? What is the point of showing me some Yemenis with this haplogroup?

You're claiming my haplogroup is European, and claiming mtdna I is European in origin, yet we all know mtdna is West Asian, given the fact it is from mtdna N. My haplogroup is not European in origin, and is basically non existent in Europe, other than Turkey, if you consider Turkey European, which would be obsurd. The point of the Yemeni samples is to prove this fact. I5a is non European in origin.

raspberry
01-06-2017, 10:06 PM
E-V13 is virtually non existent in Western Jews. Yes, Napoleon belonged to E-M34, it does exist in some regions of Southern Europe, but it's extremely rare, most people who belong to it come from West Asia, not to mention some very specific subclades (like the one that I belong to) that are virtually exclusive to Jews and can be traced to the Near East couple of thousand years ago.
You should really read the whole thread before complaining and accusing me of being political. That E-V13 is not Hebrew is exactly what I said, because some people are assuming Hitler is Jewish (he is E-V13, so calm down, I am saying exactly the same as you).


You're claiming my haplogroup is European, and claiming mtdna I is European in origin, yet we all know mtdna is West Asian, given the fact it is from mtdna N. My haplogroup is not European in origin, and is basically non existent in Europe, other than Turkey, if you consider Turkey European, which would be obsurd. The point of the Yemeni samples is to prove this fact. I5a is non European in origin.
In fact I did not say that it is not West Asian. I said it is most likely not found in ancient Hebrews but I cannot say for sure.

Tz85
01-06-2017, 11:03 PM
You should really read the whole thread before complaining and accusing me of being political. That E-V13 is not Hebrew is exactly what I said, because some people are assuming Hitler is Jewish (he is E-V13, so calm down, I am saying exactly the same as you).


In fact I did not say that it is not West Asian. I said it is most likely not found in ancient Hebrews but I cannot say for sure.

And who said I5a was found in hebrews, other than yourself?

Agamemnon
01-07-2017, 01:01 AM
P.S the name "Phoenician" was the name the Greeks and Romans used to call the Canaanite seafaring people of Sidon and Tyre who were related to the Israelites (they were virtually the same until the adoption of Monotheism by the Israelites during the Babylonian exile).

They did call themselves Ponnim though.

John Doe
01-07-2017, 11:46 AM
You should really read the whole thread before complaining and accusing me of being political. That E-V13 is not Hebrew is exactly what I said, because some people are assuming Hitler is Jewish (he is E-V13, so calm down, I am saying exactly the same as you).


In fact I did not say that it is not West Asian. I said it is most likely not found in ancient Hebrews but I cannot say for sure.

I did in fact read the entire thread before replying to you, and from what I managed to assess at the time was that you were assuming all Jews who belong to E are E-V13, rereading the thread I do stand partially corrected. As for the political accusation, well, it only seemed logical seeing as you were ignoring the evidence and excusing it for being "because Jews are a well sampled population" and what not. I hope I didn't sound too aggressive, it was late at night at my time zone and I may have been too quick to judge due to lack of sleep, so I apologise for that.


They did call themselves Ponnim though.

I was unaware of that, thanks for the info. :)

raspberry
01-07-2017, 03:01 PM
I did in fact read the entire thread before replying to you, and from what I managed to assess at the time was that you were assuming all Jews who belong to E are E-V13, rereading the thread I do stand partially corrected. As for the political accusation, well, it only seemed logical seeing as you were ignoring the evidence and excusing it for being "because Jews are a well sampled population" and what not. I hope I didn't sound too aggressive, it was late at night at my time zone and I may have been too quick to judge due to lack of sleep, so I apologise for that.



I was unaware of that, thanks for the info. :)

I said it is wrong to associate the complete haplogroup E in Europe with Jews. In fact I said that E-v13 could be everything (I gave some examples: Roman, Greek etc.) but not ancient Hebrew. Anyways I wont repeat everything wich I have said already earlier in this thread. Also I am not "ignoring evidence" just by saying that most of haplogroup E is ancient (E-V13) to Europe.

Principe
01-07-2017, 07:08 PM
Adding to E-V13 Jewish lineages, the largest one is the L241 branch, according to Yfull the TMRCA is 2700 ybp, it does not seem to be directly linked with Greece, is it possible that the L241 line might be descendents of the Philistines?while possibly the other E-V13 Jewish lineages might be descendents of Hellenistic converts.

Principe
01-07-2017, 09:36 PM
I composed a chart of Jewish lineages, using these 4 factors: the information of the site Jewishdna.net, Yfull, frequencies and looking at various ftdna project pages. I would like to know your opinions, feedbacks or criticisms.

The founding lineage should be J1-Y18297

The next group should be very old Jewish lineages: E-Y14891, E-Y21116, E-PF1975, G-L830, G-M377, J1-L818, J1-Z1884, J1-Z640, and J2a-L243.

The next group of Jewish lineages came between the days of David until the Babylonian exile: E-M44, E-Y6966, E-V22, E-L791, E-L241, J1-ZS227, J2a-Z482, J2a-Z6046, J2a-L556, J2b-Z2456, Q-Y2200, T-L208, T-P77, G-L293, G-PF3316, G-PF3146. Possibly R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 as well.

The rest of the lineages I have coming from the Babylonian Exile until European converts.

John Doe
01-07-2017, 10:16 PM
I composed a chart of Jewish lineages, using these 4 factors: the information of the site Jewishdna.net, Yfull, frequencies and looking at various ftdna project pages. I would like to know your opinions, feedbacks or criticisms.

The founding lineage should be J1-Y18297

The next group should be very old Jewish lineages: E-Y14891, E-Y21116, G-L830, G-M377, J1-L818, J1-Z1884, J1-Z640, and J2a-L243.

The next group of Jewish lineages came between the days of David until the Babylonian exile: E-M44, E-Y6966, E-V22, E-PF1975, E-L791, E-L241, J1-ZS227, J2a-Z482, J2a-Z6046, J2a-L556, J2b-Z2456, Q-Y2200, T-L208, T-P77, G-L293, G-PF3316, G-PF3146. Possibly R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 as well.

The rest of the lineages I have coming from the Babylonian Exile until European converts.

Yeah, I have a question about E-PF1975, can you please elaborate about it (assuming you're knowledgeable about the subject)?

Principe
01-07-2017, 10:38 PM
Yeah, I have a question about E-PF1975, can you please elaborate about it (assuming you're knowledgeable about the subject)?

It is a downstream of E-Z830, and it should be the second group not the third, error on my part,I am going to change it, it is the upstream of E-Y21116, did you test for this snp? Because there appears to be three branches with one branch having no connections to the other for over 3000 years, it would make it a very old Jewish line, so at the very minimal it has been Jewish for 3000 years. I place it a bit older. E-Y21116 was also found the Sardinian paper and what that indicates is that the Carthaginians brought it there, that E-Y21116 was one of the Phoenician Levantine lines who came to colonize Carthage. So this means that E-PF1975 downstreams were in the Levant, and Tyre (where the Phoenician colonists came from to Carthage) is close to Northern Israel. In essence your line and other close lines E-PH1975 and E-Y21116 are very old Jewish lineages.

Agamemnon
01-07-2017, 10:54 PM
I composed a chart of Jewish lineages, using these 4 factors: the information of the site Jewishdna.net, Yfull, frequencies and looking at various ftdna project pages. I would like to know your opinions, feedbacks or criticisms.

The founding lineage should be J1-Y18297

The next group should be very old Jewish lineages: E-Y14891, E-Y21116, E-PF1975, G-L830, G-M377, J1-L818, J1-Z1884, J1-Z640, and J2a-L243.

The next group of Jewish lineages came between the days of David until the Babylonian exile: E-M44, E-Y6966, E-V22, E-L791, E-L241, J1-ZS227, J2a-Z482, J2a-Z6046, J2a-L556, J2b-Z2456, Q-Y2200, T-L208, T-P77, G-L293, G-PF3316, G-PF3146. Possibly R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 as well.

The rest of the lineages I have coming from the Babylonian Exile until European converts.

I don't really see the logic behind all this, especially the subdivision implied here. For instance, assuming you are indeed referring to J1-Z18297, I fail to see what warrants its status as "the founding lineage", I think most of the Jewish markers are in fact founding lineages in a sense. Several of the markers you brought up in the third group are bound to have been present in the Levant since the Chalcolithic, if not earlier than that.

Power77
01-07-2017, 11:00 PM
I don't really see the logic behind all this, especially the subdivision implied here. For instance, assuming you are indeed referring to J1-Z18297, I fail to see what warrants its status as "the founding lineage", I think most of the Jewish markers are in fact founding lineages in a sense. Several of the markers you brought up in the third group are bound to have been present in the Levant since the Chalcolithic, if not earlier than that.

And he forgot E-M44 in the first group>:(!

Principe
01-07-2017, 11:19 PM
I don't really see the logic behind all this, especially the subdivision implied here. For instance, assuming you are indeed referring to J1-Z18297, I fail to see what warrants its status as "the founding lineage", I think most of the Jewish markers are in fact founding lineages in a sense. Several of the markers you brought up in the third group are bound to have been present in the Levant since the Chalcolithic, if not earlier than that.

Aga, I made this chart for a dear friend of mind and wanted to share to see what everyone thinks, in terms of the Founding lineage I think J1-Y18297 might of been hypothetically Abraham's line, for the reason it has the most branches. This is in essence a rough draft, it is not perfect, maybe something to build on? I want to say thanks I always appreciate your feedbacks.

Principe
01-07-2017, 11:20 PM
And he forgot E-M44 in the first group!>:(!


Power77, I try... I try, sorry man, I'm sure it can be in the first group! :)

Power77
01-07-2017, 11:26 PM
I think J1-Y18297 might of been hypothetically Abraham's line.

And I think if he existed, he might have been E-M34;).

Agamemnon
01-07-2017, 11:28 PM
Aga, I made this chart for a dear friend of mind and wanted to share to see what everyone thinks, in terms of the Founding lineage I think J1-Y18297 might of been hypothetically Abraham's line, for the reason it has the most branches. This is in essence a rough draft, it is not perfect, maybe something to build on? I want to say thanks I always appreciate your feedbacks.

Hm, well J1-Z18297 really doesn't have the most branches quite frankly, nor do I think that's a very good criteria in fact. I think we need to refrain from invoking Biblical genealogy or even the Biblical version of events and focus on the aDNA record in conjunction with linguistic, historical, climatic and archeological data, otherwise this is going to turn into a religious discussion.

Power77
01-07-2017, 11:30 PM
Power77, I try... I try, sorry man, I'm sure it can be in the first group! :)

It's OK, broski;)!
I think E-M44 could, at least, "fit" in the second one:).

Principe
01-07-2017, 11:31 PM
And I think if he existed, he might have been E-M34;).

For sure!! I think he did exist, I think any J1 lineage or E is the best candidate, would be cool if he was J-Z482 B)

Power77
01-07-2017, 11:45 PM
Hm, well J1-Z18297 really doesn't have the most branches quite frankly, nor do I think that's a very good criteria in fact. I think we need to refrain from invoking Biblical genealogy or even the Biblical version of events and focus on the aDNA record in conjunction with linguistic, historical, climatic and archeological data, otherwise this is going to turn into a religious discussion.

+1
Agreed:thumb:!

Babbling religious stuff has nothing to do in this forum:nod:!

Principe
01-08-2017, 12:06 AM
Hm, well J1-Z18297 really doesn't have the most branches quite frankly, nor do I think that's a very good criteria in fact. I think we need to refrain from invoking Biblical genealogy or even the Biblical version of events and focus on the aDNA record in conjunction with linguistic, historical, climatic and archeological data, otherwise this is going to turn into a religious discussion.

Like I said I could be wrong, and I agree as well this is a scientific forum not religious, its better to stick to all the criteria you mentioned. What we could take from the chart is the nice wide variety of haplogroups and subclades.

kingjohn
01-08-2017, 11:21 AM
It is a downstream of E-Z830, and it should be the second group not the third, error on my part,I am going to change it, it is the upstream of E-Y21116, did you test for this snp? Because there appears to be three branches with one branch having no connections to the other for over 3000 years, it would make it a very old Jewish line, so at the very minimal it has been Jewish for 3000 years. I place it a bit older. E-Y21116 was also found the Sardinian paper and what that indicates is that the Carthaginians brought it there, that E-Y21116 was one of the Phoenician Levantine lines who came to colonize Carthage. So this means that E-PF1975 downstreams were in the Levant, and Tyre (where the Phoenician colonists came from to Carthage) is close to Northern Israel. In essence your line and other close lines E-PH1975 and E-Y21116 are very old Jewish lineages.

principe
thanks for sharing
i didn't knew it was found in sardinian paper
that is significant find indid :)
i checked y full....
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y21116/
best regards
adam


p.s
by the way in the year 19 AD
tiberius expelled 4000 jews from rome to sardinia :)
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13200-sardinia
this also could be source for its presence in sardinia ....
along with some e-m34 and other lines.
either way it could be present in sardinia from roman area or before....

Principe
01-08-2017, 07:07 PM
principe
thanks for sharing
i didn't knew it was found in sardinian paper
that is significant find indid :)
i checked y full....
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y21116/
best regards
adam


p.s
by the way in the year 19 AD
tiberius expelled 4000 jews from rome to sardinia :)
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13200-sardinia
this also could be source for its presence in sardinia ....
along with some e-m34 and other lines.
either way it could be present in sardinia from roman area or before....

My pleasure :), I did not know about Tiberius bringing 4000 Jews to Sardinia, thanks for the information and the link. I knew about Titus bringing 5000 Jews to Puglia in 70 AD, there is a lot more research that needs to be done on the Jewish presence in Southern Italy and Sardinia.

Principe
01-08-2017, 09:31 PM
If anybody is interested in looking at the Jewish Community in Italy, the link below is a very good site.

http://www7.tau.ac.il/omeka/italjuda/

The problem is that it is in only Italian, so it might be difficult for non Italian speakers, maybe checking for decent translators on the web might help. If there is a particular village or city you would like to check up go on the pianta tab and scroll on the map or you can simply type in the place your looking for specifically in the search bar.

kingjohn
02-07-2017, 06:48 PM
you need to ask yourself what caused the founder aschenazi population to move to poland
they were in germany why should they leave unless there was huge pressure on the german jewish community
because of the black death 1348
many jewish communities were destroyed as the german non-jews thought that jews poisning the walls
and they were less effected by this as they were more clean and kept hygine than the non jewish germans


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Black_Death_Jewish_ persecutions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Erfurt_massacre_(1349)

people would not migrate to poland for nothing those massacres reduced there numbers or push them to search for more
comfortable country ....

with kind regards
adam



p.s

i have one aschenazi grandmother with roots in lithaunia and ukraine
and even me share some 8-9cm segments with german jews in ftdna family finder.


james xue answere he asked those questions the other author of the paper



Hi Adam,

Thanks for your questions/comments. I'll admit that I'm personally less clear on some points of exact AJ history than the other author on the paper (Shai Carmi), so I asked him to take a look at your comments and had the following responses as well:

"1) We don't know where the migrants to Poland arrived from. After all, in our paper (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/07/10/063099), we saw less evidence for Western-European ancestry. It might be that the founders migrated to Poland from Central Europe (today's Czech Republic, for example). Since it was a small number of founders (though probably not exactly 350), their ancestry doesn't have to reflect that of other Jews of the time.
2) Shared segments appear all over the genome, of course. Not only in specific chromosomes.
3) There are theories on massacres in Germany leading to migration, but who knows. It's very hard to substantiate those claims, as much as I understand. (i.e., even if the massacre happened, it doesn't necessarily mean those Jews went on to found the Poland community). Also, people very often migrate for economic opportunities, not necessarily pogroms."

Hope it helps!,
James

kevingnet
03-01-2017, 04:25 AM
First of all, it is not certain that Shitler was E-V13. In fact, it is much more likely that he is/was I1 or R1a-Z282 (you should check the Hutter and Hiedler Y-STR results on ysearch). And secondly, the best genetic representatives of the Ancient Aryans are not people from India, Iran or Pakistan>:(! And thirdly (and most importantly), your argument is irrelevant as to who should be considered Jewish or non-Jewish;).

I have a bit of Ashkenazi and Sephardic genes, although I wouldn't qualify myself as a Jew. Also, I am not of the faith. However, having read the bible several times over during the time when I was religious (Christian, in case you'd care to know,) I think @kingjohn did have a valid point. That's sort of how the rules were established. Otoh, rules can be changed and perhaps they did, so I wouldn't know, but to rehash, I think it's common knowledge that 'Jewishness' follows the matrilineal line(?, sorry, couldn't find a better word.) My opinion would be the orthodox one where the mother determines, since that's what I'm familiar with. So, I think there's something to that.

I see what you mean about Aryans, but the fact of the matter appears to be that they indeed came from India, after they had stayed in that area during the last glacial era, so they would be a good representative, in the sense that they do share similar genetic material. To be fair, otoh, they would not be a good representative if the criteria and use is that which Mr. Shitler and his little minions ascribed. The issue here is the misuse of the term Aryan to mean something which is not. Akin to the use of the term White. The labels are so arbitrary to the point of stupidity. Or, perhaps I'm being too harsh, and the people who used those terms in the past only had so much information to go by and did the best they could, or as fate would have it, some, the worse they could.

Erikson
03-24-2017, 06:52 AM
you need to ask yourself what caused the founder aschenazi population to move to poland
they were in germany why should they leave unless there was huge pressure on the german jewish community
because of the black death 1348
many jewish communities were destroyed as the german non-jews thought that jews poisning the walls
and they were less effected by this as they were more clean and kept hygine than the non jewish germans


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Black_Death_Jewish_ persecutions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Erfurt_massacre_(1349)

people would not migrate to poland for nothing those massacres reduced there numbers or push them to search for more
comfortable country ....

with kind regards
adam



p.s

i have one aschenazi grandmother with roots in lithaunia and ukraine
and even me share some 8-9cm segments with german jews in ftdna family finder.


james xue answere he asked those questions the other author of the paper



Hi Adam,

Thanks for your questions/comments. I'll admit that I'm personally less clear on some points of exact AJ history than the other author on the paper (Shai Carmi), so I asked him to take a look at your comments and had the following responses as well:

"1) We don't know where the migrants to Poland arrived from. After all, in our paper (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/07/10/063099), we saw less evidence for Western-European ancestry. It might be that the founders migrated to Poland from Central Europe (today's Czech Republic, for example). Since it was a small number of founders (though probably not exactly 350), their ancestry doesn't have to reflect that of other Jews of the time.
2) Shared segments appear all over the genome, of course. Not only in specific chromosomes.
3) There are theories on massacres in Germany leading to migration, but who knows. It's very hard to substantiate those claims, as much as I understand. (i.e., even if the massacre happened, it doesn't necessarily mean those Jews went on to found the Poland community). Also, people very often migrate for economic opportunities, not necessarily pogroms."

Hope it helps!,
James

Great information Adam.
Working with my maternal atDNA (as well as cousins), I can't yet see if MRCAs with people of AJ Polish and AJ Czech heritage were from a split when my ancestors left those regions and migrated to Germany or the other way around.
So far, I see a high probability of a split in a particular line due to an expulsion from Frth. It appears that part of the line went to Czech Rep and my family stayed in Franconia. This conclusion is based upon matching chromosome segments coupled with common ancestors from segment owners trees. My personal tree doesn't go back to the 1600's so I can't place my lineage on those branches.
I was hoping a cousin's Y from that branch would match up but it's a lottery and he didn't hold the winning card.
Also, there's no way to prove this theory due to AJ endogamy. It may *appear to be coming from one line when in fact it's actually from elsewhere or through multiple lines. :\
Some things will remain a mystery but your info sheds light on my question - Why would they go to Poland from Germany?

kingjohn
03-24-2017, 12:34 PM
good questions :)
i dont believe people go with no reson
and i am not buying that cezch republik was the location that from him they went
to poland the researcher think that just because aschenazi don't have western european ancestery than they
can't come from germany { he forget that jews were isolated and they didn't mixed with gentile germans }
jewish communities in germany is well known and i beieve this was the main reson jews left to poland and east europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_the_Crusades
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death_Jewish_persecutions it also fits the time of the bottlneck
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany
there was also reverse migration of jews after 1648 and the mess in ukraine to western germany
regards
adam

Erik
04-05-2017, 03:32 AM
So, there have been a lot of changes in the popular DNA tests as of late. AncestryDNA has added a feature called "Genetic Communities" and FTDNA has updated their myOrigins results completely. I'd love to see some Jewish results on both!

As for AncestryDNA:
I got Jews of Belarus/Lithuania/Latvia
My grandfather and father got Jews of the Russian Empire
My uncle got Jews of Central Europe
My Moroccan Jewish friend got nothing

As for FTDNA:
My grandfather got 96% Ashkenazi, 2% Western Middle East, and 2% Iberian, with traces from Eastern Europe and Eastern Middle East.
My results are blank for whatever reason, so I emailed FTDNA and hopefully I will get some new results soon... Also I am unable to login to my sister's account so we will never see her results, however on the "Shared Origins" tab she showed up as a mix of European, Jewish Diaspora, and Middle Eastern (in that order).

Erik
04-10-2017, 08:29 PM
חג שמח לכולם!
Hope your chametz has been sold ;)

Agamemnon
04-10-2017, 10:37 PM
חג פסח שמח אחים יקרים

Spoke to one of my (far-flung) Samaritan cousins earlier today, he's currently on Har Gerizim celebrating much like our ancestors used to:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtXhWHC2rYw

Tz85
04-10-2017, 11:05 PM
Chametz gone, excited for Pesach. B'H

Myth
04-15-2017, 06:48 AM
I too have struggled with this. My mom was a convert to judaism but she converted in 1970s via the conservative movement which while this makes me a Jew under most liberal streams of Judaism by religion, the orthodox don't recognize it as a valid conversion even though all my mothers rabbis came from long time rabbinical families who were famous that performed the conversion. The orthodox have found everything they can to deprive me of my Jewish half.

On the other hand, my dad was born a Jew and a Cohen. He took great pride in researching this. I read a book recently by Shaye D Cohen called the beginning of jewishness which seems to show evidence from Torah and even Talmud that the father made this determination as well.

It seems there is even a part in exodus i want to say? Where Moses has the child of a israelite mother and egyptian father stoned to death for blasphemy. What is interesting is the son is never referenced as a Israelite but that he was amongst the Israelites.

Many passages refer frequently to the Gd of our fathers abraham issac and jacob.

I feel attached to my Jewish half and it is very sad politics internal and external can make it so difficult because people want to believe half jews or jewish dna cannot exist.

Myth
04-15-2017, 07:13 AM
Actually most jewish families knew Hebrew when called up to Torah but didn't use hebrew in every day conversation to avoid lashon hara or evil tongue.

Also many places registered Jews as a separate ethnicity. My great great grandfather immigrated from Kiev. At the time Russia had his race registered as Hebrew. I would be more than happy to provide evidence.

Myth
04-15-2017, 07:23 AM
It is nice how sure you all are of being Hebrew. The factual standpoint is different: E-V13 was clade of Romans, ancient Greeks, Illyrians and Phoenicians. And as already mentioned by Agamemnon it was found in Neolithic Spain (wich proofs only that is most likely not Hebrew). All of these people are rather ancient to Europe and spread throughtout Europe. This is what I say. If you believe that some ancient Hebrews settled in masses (askenzai, Sephardi) in Europe than I cant show it different because you are to convinced of yourselves (being Hebrew). There are no (not mythological) sources where the ancient Hebrews (or if they went in masses) went to exile(s). Also I wouldnt even want to belong to J1 or haplogroup E because R1b (I am from a very old clade) was founder of agriculture, cattle keeping and master in iron proccessing. "We all know for sure that Jews descend from J and sub clades of E-M35. Certainly not R1b or I. Sorry to burst your bubble. All other clades are result of conversion" - you are just like a Rabbi thinking he is chosen by god (and has the honor to belong to J1), sorry to say it but I wouldnt even want to be Jewish if I had the choice nor I would like to belong to haplogroups like E or J1.

This is wrong.

Josephus documented very well the diaspora as did the Assyrians. Even after 70 AD the larger diaspora occurred after the bar khobka revolt. Why do you think such a documented diaspora is impossible when other diasporas of greeks, armenians, circassians and others are very well demonstrated as evidence?

kingjohn
04-15-2017, 01:18 PM
the jewish orthodoxy are crazy:\
only this kind of people will say to me that i am non jewish
acording to the halacha while i am only quarter גוי
realy stupid :\
regards
Adam

Myth
04-15-2017, 04:08 PM
the jewish orthodoxy are crazy:\
only this kind of people will say to me that i am non jewish
acording to the halacha while i am only quarter גוי
realy stupid :\
regards
Adam

Yep, I disregard their opinion. They do not have a monopoly on who is a Jew and if you really think about it, no convert is safe because even haradei families have had conversions revoked generations back.

Anyways to keep on topic I read the entire thread and am more on track now.

I think for half Jews some of the results are slightly skewed since in my case my mom is German and my dad was full Jewish but great grandfather was born in southern Romania for the Cohen ancestors. My dad is deceased so I can't test him but I was able to test my mother to do phasing and find out what was inherited from my father. I can only simulate his autosomal dna to limited degree since I can't test him.

Running my dads samples through gedmatch calculator, he shows up majority ashkenazi though some calculators show him as sicilian or central south italian. Romanian is also common and the balkan countries. Once split into 2 person it is more clear that these matches are popping up as jordanian, moroccan jew, lebanon muslim etc. I think that this alone seems to indicate that most ashkenazi seem to cluster with both middle east and south europe but pull slightly more towards south Europe with Middle Eastern roots probably due to similar admixture if we consider ancient phoenecian (canaanite) and recent middle east in sicilians. Or is it possible sicilians some are jews? Who knows.

We know ashkenazi cluster with sephardi via IBD.

I searched for years to see if I am sephardic and sadly i don't have evidence for this. Romanians did have sephardic jews from the ottoman empire especially from Bulgaria and later ashkenazi came from galicia, hungary, and ukraine. I do show some bulgarian so maybe ashkenazi mixed with some sephardi and then remixed back with ashkenazi. My dad from a phenotype perspective and his family were definitely darker skin or tan, not like what people associate ashkenazi with

Regardless, I dont think autosomal DNA is going to necessarily provide us the lineage or ancient ancestry, for that, we need haplogroups which in themself are not guarantees due to aging but subclades and snp combined with str testing can provide a realistic time frame for geneological testing. I have done the y test 67 markers and am fgc9941 which is subclade of s12192 of j m267. Yes we know frequency of j1 predates semitic people BUT this is why we need to compare it to the modern populations which s12192 did split within a time frame that Jews would have still been in Judea.

Looking at frequency, j1 is found in low frequency in europe yet p58 is almost near non existent and you would be lucky to find tiny percentages except those with jewish ancestry with its subclades

C J Wyatt III
04-15-2017, 04:19 PM
Yep, I disregard their opinion. They do not have a monopoly on who is a Jew and if you really think about it, no convert is safe because even haradei families have had conversions revoked generations back....

Regardless, I dont think autosomal DNA is going to necessarily provide us the lineage or ancient ancestry, for that, we need haplogroups which in themself are not guarantees due to aging but subclades and snp combined with str testing can provide a realistic time frame for geneological testing....


I think auDNA and mtDNA testing eventually might show that many maternal lines are not continuously Jewish.

What are the rabbis going to do then?

Jack

Agamemnon
04-15-2017, 06:12 PM
It seems there is even a part in exodus i want to say? Where Moses has the child of a israelite mother and egyptian father stoned to death for blasphemy. What is interesting is the son is never referenced as a Israelite but that he was amongst the Israelites.

You're talking about Leviticus (Wayiqra) 24:10-16...



י וַיֵּצֵא, בֶּן-אִשָּׁה יִשְׂרְאֵלִית, וְהוּא בֶּן-אִישׁ מִצְרִי, בְּתוֹךְ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל; וַיִּנָּצוּ, בַּמַּחֲנֶה, בֶּן הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִית, וְאִישׁ הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִי

יא וַיִּקֹּב בֶּן-הָאִשָּׁה הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִית אֶת-הַשֵּׁם, וַיְקַלֵּל, וַיָּבִיאוּ אֹתוֹ, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה; וְשֵׁם אִמּוֹ שְׁלֹמִית בַּת-דִּבְרִי, לְמַטֵּה-דָן

יב וַיַּנִּיחֻהוּ, בַּמִּשְׁמָר, לִפְרֹשׁ לָהֶם, עַל-פִּי יְהוָה

יג וַיְדַבֵּר יְהוָה, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה לֵּאמֹר

יד הוֹצֵא אֶת-הַמְקַלֵּל, אֶל-מִחוּץ לַמַּחֲנֶה, וְסָמְכוּ כָל-הַשֹּׁמְעִים אֶת-יְדֵיהֶם, עַל-רֹאשׁוֹ; וְרָגְמוּ אֹתוֹ, כָּל-הָעֵדָה

טו וְאֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, תְּדַבֵּר לֵאמֹר: אִישׁ אִישׁ כִּי-יְקַלֵּל אֱלֹהָיו, וְנָשָׂא חֶטְאוֹ

טז וְנֹקֵב שֵׁם-יְהוָה מוֹת יוּמָת, רָגוֹם יִרְגְּמוּ-בוֹ כָּל-הָעֵדָה: כַּגֵּר, כָּאֶזְרָח--בְּנָקְבוֹ-שֵׁם, יוּמָת

Notice how the individual is always called "the son of the Israelite woman" (bĕn ha'iššah haYiśre'ēlit) and never an Israelite, the contrast is quite clear in the first verse where he is opposed to the Israelite man with whom he quarreled (bĕn haYiśre'ēlit VS 'iš haYiśre'ēlī).
In the same vein, when the sentence (stoning) is pronounced the emphasis is put on the fact that this sentence can equally be applied to strangers (kaggēr, ka'ĕzraħ, benqḇo-šēm, youmat), there would be no need for such a justification if Jewishness were transmitted matrilineally as the blasphemer would then be considered an Israelite.

Myth
04-15-2017, 08:13 PM
You're talking about Leviticus (Wayiqra) 24:10-16...



י וַיֵּצֵא, בֶּן-אִשָּׁה יִשְׂרְאֵלִית, וְהוּא בֶּן-אִישׁ מִצְרִי, בְּתוֹךְ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל; וַיִּנָּצוּ, בַּמַּחֲנֶה, בֶּן הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִית, וְאִישׁ הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִי

יא וַיִּקֹּב בֶּן-הָאִשָּׁה הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִית אֶת-הַשֵּׁם, וַיְקַלֵּל, וַיָּבִיאוּ אֹתוֹ, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה; וְשֵׁם אִמּוֹ שְׁלֹמִית בַּת-דִּבְרִי, לְמַטֵּה-דָן

יב וַיַּנִּיחֻהוּ, בַּמִּשְׁמָר, לִפְרֹשׁ לָהֶם, עַל-פִּי יְהוָה

יג וַיְדַבֵּר יְהוָה, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה לֵּאמֹר

יד הוֹצֵא אֶת-הַמְקַלֵּל, אֶל-מִחוּץ לַמַּחֲנֶה, וְסָמְכוּ כָל-הַשֹּׁמְעִים אֶת-יְדֵיהֶם, עַל-רֹאשׁוֹ; וְרָגְמוּ אֹתוֹ, כָּל-הָעֵדָה

טו וְאֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, תְּדַבֵּר לֵאמֹר: אִישׁ אִישׁ כִּי-יְקַלֵּל אֱלֹהָיו, וְנָשָׂא חֶטְאוֹ

טז וְנֹקֵב שֵׁם-יְהוָה מוֹת יוּמָת, רָגוֹם יִרְגְּמוּ-בוֹ כָּל-הָעֵדָה: כַּגֵּר, כָּאֶזְרָח--בְּנָקְבוֹ-שֵׁם, יוּמָת

Notice how the individual is always called "the son of the Israelite woman" (bĕn ha'iššah haYiśre'ēlit) and never an Israelite, the contrast is quite clear in the first verse where he is opposed to the Israelite man with whom he quarreled (bĕn haYiśre'ēlit VS 'iš haYiśre'ēlī).
In the same vein, when the sentence (stoning) is pronounced the emphasis is put on the fact that this sentence can equally be applied to strangers (kaggēr, ka'ĕzraħ, benqḇo-šēm, youmat), there would be no need for such a justification if Jewishness were transmitted matrilineally as the blasphemer would then be considered an Israelite.

Exactly!

Ethereal
04-11-2018, 02:25 PM
I think auDNA and mtDNA testing eventually might show that many maternal lines are not continuously Jewish.

What are the rabbis going to do then?

Jack

They just ignore it, or they could sneak around it by using Ruth as an example.

Targum
04-11-2018, 03:04 PM
In Jewish jurisprudence (halakhah) as it developed as the Oral Torah, there is the concept of חזקה, hhazaqah, presumption. This is originally developed in many places in the Talmud Bavli, but much of it in Tractate Ketubot, whose core subject is marriage contracts and the property rights created for spouses.Hhazaqot are introduced for such status matters as virginity, Kohanic (priestly descendant of Aharon) status, paternity, prior marriage or singlehood, non-rape in captivity, and Jewish status. So DNA evidence of absorption of Italian or other women in antiquity would do nothing to undermine any living Jew's halakhic status, which is based on the hhazaqah of prior generations.

C J Wyatt III
04-11-2018, 05:43 PM
In Jewish jurisprudence (halakhah) as it developed as the Oral Torah, there is the concept of חזקה, hhazaqah, presumption. This is originally developed in many places in the Talmud Bavli, but much of it in Tractate Ketubot, whose core subject is marriage contracts and the property rights created for spouses.Hhazaqot are introduced for such status matters as virginity, Kohanic (priestly descendant of Aharon) status, paternity, prior marriage or singlehood, non-rape in captivity, and Jewish status. So DNA evidence of absorption of Italian or other women in antiquity would do nothing to undermine any living Jew's halakhic status, which is based on the hhazaqah of prior generations.

Thanks. In other words, past is past?

Would a break in the maternal line be viewed differently if it happened within the last few hundred years, rather than a thousand or more?

Jack

Targum
04-11-2018, 06:26 PM
Thanks. In other words, past is past?

Would a break in the maternal line be viewed differently if it happened within the last few hundred years, rather than a thousand or more?

Jack

If it was in recent generations, and I know of such cases where the improper conversion or no conversion is in the last 3 generations, steps are taken to quietly guide the descendant through Orthodox Conversion in a Beit Din (Rabbinical Court). The common scenario is that an Orthodox American Jewish boy or girl (whose family are 'returnees" to tradition and whose grandparents are/were not religious), is spending a post high school year at a Yeshiva (boys) or Seminary (girls) in Israel. They may start dating and if it gets serious, the Israeli Beit Din checks out the halakhic personal status and the anomaly is discovered, and usually, quietly remedied discreetly.

mlg
05-15-2018, 04:43 PM
I too have struggled with this. My mom was a convert to judaism but she converted in 1970s via the conservative movement which while this makes me a Jew under most liberal streams of Judaism by religion, the orthodox don't recognize it as a valid conversion even though all my mothers rabbis came from long time rabbinical families who were famous that performed the conversion. The orthodox have found everything they can to deprive me of my Jewish half.

On the other hand, my dad was born a Jew and a Cohen. He took great pride in researching this. I read a book recently by Shaye D Cohen called the beginning of jewishness which seems to show evidence from Torah and even Talmud that the father made this determination as well.

It seems there is even a part in exodus i want to say? Where Moses has the child of a israelite mother and egyptian father stoned to death for blasphemy. What is interesting is the son is never referenced as a Israelite but that he was amongst the Israelites.

Many passages refer frequently to the Gd of our fathers abraham issac and jacob.

I feel attached to my Jewish half and it is very sad politics internal and external can make it so difficult because people want to believe half jews or jewish dna cannot exist.

The true reckoning of the children of Israel is by their father's line. This is not to say the mothers line (in case of a Gentile father) is not included. Numbers 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls.

God respects even converts, those who take hold of His covenant, join themselves to YHVH. (Isaiah 56:6). Also Isaiah 44:5. Rabbinic tradition is utterly wrong on the matrilineal reckoning of children of Jacob (Jews are but a subset of them).

Targum
05-15-2018, 05:21 PM
The true reckoning of the children of Israel is by their father's line. This is not to say the mothers line (in case of a Gentile father) is not included. Numbers 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls.

God respects even converts, those who take hold of His covenant, join themselves to YHVH. (Isaiah 56:6). Also Isaiah 44:5. Rabbinic tradition is utterly wrong on the matrilineal reckoning of children of Jacob (Jews are but a subset of them).

Christians lack/do not understand Torah she-be'al peh The Oral Torah; thus their literal understandings of Hebrew Scripture are incoherent.Christianity ideologically is disconnected from Torah so it is not really fair to expect it to explain Torah outside a New Testament, Christological perspective.(This is a strictly ideological criticism, NOT social at all. Christians, however, are lovely kind people today, and Jews get along with them, and are welcomed mutually for the most part). Tribal status was patrilineal, Jewish status matrilineal-period. There is/was no alternative tradition in mainstream Rabbinic Judaism. See my previous post for how patrilineal Jews fix their status if they are motivated.

mlg
05-16-2018, 06:03 PM
Tribal status was patrilineal, Jewish status matrilineal-period. There is/was no alternative tradition in mainstream Rabbinic Judaism. See my previous post for how patrilineal Jews fix their status if they are motivated.

Fair enough, since you say 'mainstream Rabbinic tradition'. I am sure you know the Karaites differ (minority opinion). Btw, what does the oral tradition say regarding the lost tribes? Will they be reckoned patrilineally ?

Targum
05-16-2018, 07:16 PM
Fair enough, since you say 'mainstream Rabbinic tradition'. I am sure you know the Karaites differ (minority opinion). Btw, what does the oral tradition say regarding the lost tribes? Will they be reckoned patrilineally ?

1) Karaites are considered Jews but heretics. Due to their rejection of Oral Torah intermarriage with them is viewed by Jewish courts on a cas-by-case basis, as they are suspect in not following divorce and remarriage consistent with Torah;
2) Contrary to popular myth, the southern kingdom of Yehudah(Judah, Judea etc), had representative population of all ten northern tribes, as well as Yehudah, Binyamin, and Levi. That means that today's Jews have partial ancestry from the ten tribes as well as the dominant southern tribes. As to the descendants of the Assyrian dispersion, many see today the beginning of their ingathering, with the Hispanic/ Converso, Benei Menashe,Benei Ephraim, Igbo Jews , Madagascar, etc the signs of pre-messianic List Jewish return. At any rate Midrash clearly states the descendants will be able to establish their status;and no patrilineal is not acceptable

mlg
05-16-2018, 10:03 PM
2) Contrary to popular myth, the southern kingdom of Yehudah(Judah, Judea etc), had representativevpooulation of all ten northern tribes, as well as Yehudah, Binyamin, and Levi. That means that today's Jews have partial ancestry from the ten tribes as well as the dominant southern tribes. As to the descendants of the Assyrian dispersion, many see today the beginning of their ingathering, with the Hispanic/ Converso, Benei Menashe,Benei Ephraim, Igbo Jews , Madagascar, etc the signs of pre-messianic List Jewish return. At any rate Midrash clearly states the descendants will be able to establish their status;and no patrilineal is not acceptable

I fully agree that all twelve tribes were represented in the kingdom of Judah. However there were later additions such as those who became Jews during Esther’s time and the Edomite converts (eg. Herod) during the times of the Maccabees.

The lost tribes include not only Assyrian dispersion but also those who did not return from the Babylonian captivity. And many of these are assimilated amongst the Gentiles with little or no Jewish traditions left. I would think their number is far greater than the Jews today. If it’s not patrilineal I wonder how can they be recognised? The Bnei Menashe, the Lemba, etc were tested for Y haplogroups weren’t they?

As for me, I cannot accept the traditions developed/ written after the destruction of the second temple, since Israel has gone out of favour with God and the light has departed (we look forward to it’s return, Isaiah 60:1).