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Angoliga
12-22-2016, 02:10 AM
Very interesting tangent!

I can see why there'd be multiple interpretations of a definitive "race" for Ancient Hebrews, I've come across many compelling scriptural and pictorial arguments -- some more convincing than others:)

@Awale - great job debunking the Khazar theory btw -- I'll admit, I once thought The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler was credible :doh: I've been meaning to leave a positive comment on the blog but wanted to first create an alias name on google+ -- I know it's a sensitive topic for some: "Anthromadness: The Khazar Theory: Give it a Rest (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ca/2015/05/the-khazar-theory-give-it-rest.html)"




I'm quite sure it does, however the Israelites per se emerged during the Late Bronze Age some 3,200 years ago, if Egyptian depictions of "Asiatic" groups are anything to go off these people certainly didn't look like contemporary Sub-Saharan Africans.

This was the first image that came to mind when you referred to Ancient Egyptian depictions of "Israelites per se":
http://i.imgur.com/BUnT7MU.jpg
- there's a few modern depictions of this image online but this is the real fresco from Beni Hasan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beni_Hasan). No one can claim without a doubt that these are Ancient Hebrews but since they've been stated as coming from the same Syro-Palestinian region and came to A.E. around the same purported time as Jacob, they're therefore billed by many as being a probable depiction of what A.H. looked like during these biblical times (~twenty-ninth century B.C). There's inscriptions on this mural that refer to persons on the top of the image as Hyksos (misinterpreted as "Shepherd Kings), the same type of Asiatics that took over northern Egypt centuries later -- the persons at the bottom with complexions more akin to SSAs would be AEs




Well actually, I'd take issue with "Hamitic" but at the end of the day, both terms are inaccurate if you ask me. The main problem with "Hamito-Semitic", on linguistic grounds, is that it implies a neat divide between Semitic and the rest of the Afroasiatic family, which isn't the case. Then there's all the racial weight of this term, prior to Joseph Greenberg's revolutionary book The Languages Of Africa, linguists used to lump most of the African languages they didn't understand into a "Hamitic" category, based on "racial" traits shared between the groups which ended up in this category.

I also refrain from using the term "Hamitic" but my mother's Eastern-Sudanic Kakwa tribe are still referred to as Nilo-Hamites -- I think it's usage in Uganda is more an outdated reference related to their language than any kind of "racial" categorization -- other Ugandan "Nilo-Hamites" would be the Karamajong and Teso -- their language is still remotely intelligible to the Maasai. This linguistic group is said to have dispersed from South-Western Ethiopia near lake Turkana in the ~1600s. At an autosmal level, this side of my family has no Cushitic/Western-Semitic ancestry although before dispersing across Sudan and into Uganda, I wouldn't doubt Proto-Eastern Sudanic speakers probably had a sizable Cushitic-like affinity like the Turkana speakers from where they're said to have dispersed.

Agamemnon
12-22-2016, 03:08 AM
This was the first image that came to mind when you referred to Ancient Egyptian depictions of "Israelites per se":
http://i.imgur.com/BUnT7MU.jpg
- there's a few modern depictions of this image online but this is the real fresco from Beni Hasan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beni_Hasan). No one can claim without a doubt that these are Ancient Hebrews but since they've been stated as coming from the same Syro-Palestinian region and came to A.E. around the same purported time as Jacob, they're therefore billed by many as being a probable depiction of what A.H. looked like during these biblical times (~twenty-ninth century B.C). There's inscriptions on this mural that refer to persons on the top of the image as Hyksos (misinterpreted as "Shepherd Kings), the same type of Asiatics that took over northern Egypt centuries later -- the persons at the bottom with complexions more akin to SSAs would be AEs

Ah yes, the so-called "caravan of Ibsha", a typical Egyptian representation of "Asiatics" and a very famous fresco indeed... Since this depiction dates back to the Middle Bronze Age, these people were in all likeliness NW Semitic speakers (I think the closest approximation to what they spoke would resemble Amorite with peculiar Canaanite features), probably akin to the people who would later become Canaanites, and part of a larger migratory movement from the Levant which brought about a succession of NW Semitic pharaohs (from the XIIIth dynasty onwards) and lead to the brutal rise and fall of the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period. Personally, I strongly suspect the presence of basal J1-ZS241* (my branch of J1-YSC234) in Egypt is tied to these events.

While these people clearly predate the emergence of the Proto-Israelites, it's quite wise to assume that they didn't look all that different. The depictions I had in mind were those of the Shasu and other Levantine groups under the tutelage of Egypt during the Late Bronze Age.


I also refrain from using the term "Hamitic" but my mother's Eastern-Sudanic Kakwa tribe are still referred to as Nilo-Hamites -- I think it's usage in Uganda is more an outdated reference related to their language than any kind of "racial" categorization -- other Ugandan "Nilo-Hamites" would be the Karamajong and Teso -- their language is still remotely intelligible to the Maasai. This linguistic group is said to have dispersed from South-Western Ethiopia near lake Turkana in the ~1600s. At an autosmal level, this side of my family has no Cushitic/Western-Semitic ancestry although before dispersing across Sudan and into Uganda, I wouldn't doubt Proto-Eastern Sudanic speakers probably had a sizable Cushitic-like affinity like the Turkana speakers from where they're said to have dispersed.

It's also used in French, old habits die hard I guess. But that's somewhat understandable in your case, since the relations between different Nilo-Saharan groups are unclear, the use of this "Nilo-Hamite" label was initially designed to avoid further confusion, now it does just that. From a linguistic standpoint, Nilo-Saharan is woefully understudied.

Power77
12-22-2016, 04:45 AM
Ah yes, the so-called "caravan of Ibsha", a typical Egyptian representation of "Asiatics" and a very famous fresco indeed... Since this depiction dates back to the Middle Bronze Age, these people were in all likeliness NW Semitic speakers (I think the closest approximation to what they spoke would resemble Amorite with peculiar Canaanite features), probably akin to the people who would later become Canaanites, and part of a larger migratory movement from the Levant which brought about a succession of NW Semitic pharaohs (from the XIIIth dynasty onwards) and lead to the brutal rise and fall of the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period. Personally, I strongly suspect the presence of basal J1-ZS241* (my branch of J1-YSC234) in Egypt is tied to these events.

While these people clearly predate the emergence of the Proto-Israelites, it's quite wise to assume that they didn't look all that different. The depictions I had in mind were those of the Shasu and other Levantine groups under the tutelage of Egypt during the Late Bronze Age.



It's also used in French, old habits die hard I guess. But that's somewhat understandable in your case, since the relations between different Nilo-Saharan groups are unclear, the use of this "Nilo-Hamite" label was initially designed to avoid further confusion, now it does just that. From a linguistic standpoint, Nilo-Saharan is woefully understudied.

Do you think these folks could also explain some of the "odd" E-M34 lineages found in Egypt (notably among Copts):\?

Agamemnon
12-22-2016, 05:17 AM
Do you think these folks could also explain some of the "odd" E-M34 lineages found in Egypt (notably among Copts):\?

That's a possibility, but we need to know the exact branch under M34 to make a fair assessment.

Power77
12-22-2016, 06:00 AM
That's a possibility, but we need to know the exact branch under M34 to make a fair assessment.

Thanks for the info. As for the phenotypes, don't you think that these Beni Hassan "Hebrews" look like a mixture of Italian "Guidos" and Israelis;)?

Awale
12-22-2016, 09:46 AM
@Awale - great job debunking the Khazar theory btw -- I'll admit, I once thought The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler was credible :doh: I've been meaning to leave a positive comment on the blog but wanted to first create an alias name on google+ -- I know it's a sensitive topic for some: "Anthromadness: The Khazar Theory: Give it a Rest (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ca/2015/05/the-khazar-theory-give-it-rest.html)"

Sheikh Awale Ismail is humbled by the compliments, my good sir. :) But eh, I think that post was a little weak since I slightly relied on "Appeal to Authority" there. This post (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/05/elhaiks-at-it-and-wrong-again.html) is much better, in my humble opinion, because I entirely relied on straight-forward data to back up my point. Basically showing that Western-Jews are simply some sort of Mediterranean population of partial Southern European (I'd say Mainland Greek or Tuscan-like) and Levantine roots (I'd say Samaritan/Lebanese_Christian/Levant_Bronze Age-like).

But that post you liked is still one I'm satisfied with nonetheless. :)

Yahanon
12-22-2016, 11:01 PM
Very interesting tangent!

I can see why there'd be multiple interpretations of a definitive "race" for Ancient Hebrews, I've come across many compelling scriptural and pictorial arguments -- some more convincing than others:)

@Awale - great job debunking the Khazar theory btw -- I'll admit, I once thought The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler was credible :doh: I've been meaning to leave a positive comment on the blog but wanted to first create an alias name on google+ -- I know it's a sensitive topic for some: "Anthromadness: The Khazar Theory: Give it a Rest (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ca/2015/05/the-khazar-theory-give-it-rest.html)"





This was the first image that came to mind when you referred to Ancient Egyptian depictions of "Israelites per se":
http://i.imgur.com/BUnT7MU.jpg
- there's a few modern depictions of this image online but this is the real fresco from Beni Hasan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beni_Hasan). No one can claim without a doubt that these are Ancient Hebrews but since they've been stated as coming from the same Syro-Palestinian region and came to A.E. around the same purported time as Jacob, they're therefore billed by many as being a probable depiction of what A.H. looked like during these biblical times (~twenty-ninth century B.C). There's inscriptions on this mural that refer to persons on the top of the image as Hyksos (misinterpreted as "Shepherd Kings), the same type of Asiatics that took over northern Egypt centuries later -- the persons at the bottom with complexions more akin to SSAs would be AEs


The "Asiatics" look identical in almost all respects to how Ethiopians depicted themselves. Complexions, etc. lol 13271

Power77
12-22-2016, 11:30 PM
The "Asiatics" look identical in almost all respects to how Ethiopians depicted themselves. Complexions, etc. lol 13271

I don't see much resemblance between the two, maybe apart from the hair:(...

Awale
12-23-2016, 12:39 AM
I don't see much resemblance between the two, maybe apart from the hair:(...

Indeed. Seconded...

Yahanon
12-23-2016, 11:03 PM
Indeed. Seconded...

Because the Ethiopians' complexion is a lighter brown than both other groups?

Power77
12-23-2016, 11:10 PM
Because the Ethiopians' complexion is a lighter brown than both other groups?

Not only that dawg:\! The facial features are very different as well.

Awale
12-23-2016, 11:12 PM
Because the Ethiopians' complexion is a lighter brown than both other groups?

The average "Ethiopian's" complexion is not like those depictions (Here are several Tigrinyas in Tigray (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WNWpmRUhLM1JsZDQ?usp=sharing). These are legit "Abyssinians" who are practically the peak of West-Eurasian ancestry in Ethiopia) but sure, the complexions in the depictions look similar but not much else does in my humble opinion.

Yahanon
12-23-2016, 11:38 PM
The average "Ethiopian's" complexion is not like those depictions (Here are several Tigrinyas in Tigray (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WNWpmRUhLM1JsZDQ?usp=sharing). These are legit "Abyssinians" who are practically the peak of West-Eurasian ancestry in Ethiopia) but sure, the complexions in the depictions look similar but not much else does in my humble opinion.

Beautiful photos! 13301

Angoliga
12-27-2016, 06:30 AM
Thanks and lol. 13134

Are you familiar with the Black Hebrew Israelites (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites)? I ask because I've come across similar reliefs of AHs during Assyrian captivity -- this was often used to argue a black identity. The problem is, if we're to solely go off of similar reliefs from the period, one would notice the Hebrews don't contrast much from other Asiatics -- the Assyrians are depicted with the same physical features and hair texture: 13344
So, on that basis -- one would have to argue that Ancient Assyrians are somehow similar in appearance to contemporary SSAs which doesn't make any sense.


Despite some of the erroneous claims from the Hebrew Israelites, I still can't dismiss their argument regarding leprosy (ie. vitiligo). These are some of their most convincing scriptural arguments for a "non-white" ethnicity of AHs. If taken into consideration, it's enough to raise doubt on whats considered the "conventional" appearance of AHs:

Exodus 4:6-8

6 And the Lord said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. 7 And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh. 8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.

The omission of this particular scene in films following the staff turning into a snake, is considered by some to be too "convenient" and just another attempt to hide the AH's "true identity". The argument is, if Moses were white, what would be the point of God's demonstration of amazement to turn a white person white. A counterargument would be, the same effect could be seen on a person with olive-skin. Of course, the effect wouldn't be as powerful as someone of a darker complexion in the SSA variety.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/84/38/69/8438693a6056295b4a0255859097e5d9.jpg

Numbers 12:9-11
9And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed. 10And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

This verse comes from God punishing Miriam, the sister of Moses, for her resentment of Moses marrying a non-Hebrew Cushite (also called Ethiopian depending on the biblical version). Again the interpretation is, if Miriam were white what would be the punishment of turning her white. These verses from Leviticus 13 are lengthy but goes into detail on how AH priests would heal leprosy:

...4: If the bright spot be white in the skin of his flesh, the priest shall shut up him that has the plague seven days...
6: And the priest shall look on him again the seventh day: and behold, if the plague be somewhat dark, and the plague spread not in the skin, the priest shall pronounce him clean: it is but a scab; and he shall wash his clothes and be clean.

The interpretation for "dark" when referring to skin can still be wide and varied.

drobbah
12-27-2016, 07:08 AM
Numbers 12:9-11
9And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed. 10And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

This verse comes from God punishing Miriam, the sister of Moses, for her resentment of Moses marrying a non-Hebrew Cushite (also called Ethiopian depending on the biblical version). Again the interpretation is, if Miriam were white what would be the punishment of turning her white. These verses from Leviticus 13 are lengthy but goes into detail on how AH priests would heal leprosy:

...4: If the bright spot be white in the skin of his flesh, the priest shall shut up him that has the plague seven days...
6: And the priest shall look on him again the seventh day: and behold, if the plague be somewhat dark, and the plague spread not in the skin, the priest shall pronounce him clean: it is but a scab; and he shall wash his clothes and be clean.

The interpretation for "dark" when referring to skin can still be wide and varied.
[/spoiler]
Interesting post!

I came across these Ahaadith in my early teens after my first encounter with these Nation of Islam folks outside a mall lol.This is what I found from Islams most authentic text after the Quran.

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "I saw Moses, Jesus and Abraham (on the night of my Ascension to the heavens). Jesus was of red complexion, curly hair and a broad chest. Moses was of brown complexion, straight hair and tall stature as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt."
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "On the night of my Ascension to Heaven, I saw (the prophet) Moses who was a thin person with lank hair, looking like one of the men of the tribe of Shanua; and I saw jesus who was of average height with red face as if he had just come out of a bathroom. And I resemble prophet Abraham more than any of his offspring does.


Obviously these are just religious texts and should not be taken as evidence or proof of Moses complexion but it is interesting that Bible and Muhammad are both pointing out that Moses was a colored person.I have a feeling that the people of Zutt Muhammad was mentioning was a probably a NE African population.

Power77
12-27-2016, 11:50 AM
Despite some of the erroneous claims from the Hebrew Israelites, I still can't dismiss their argument regarding leprosy (ie. vitiligo). These are some of their most convincing scriptural arguments for a "non-white" ethnicity of AHs. If taken into consideration, it's enough to raise doubt on whats considered the "conventional" appearance of AHs:

Exodus 4:6-8

6 And the Lord said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. 7 And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh. 8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.

The omission of this particular scene in films following the staff turning into a snake, is considered by some to be too "convenient" and just another attempt to hide the AH's "true identity". The argument is, if Moses were white, what would be the point of God's demonstration of amazement to turn a white person white. A counterargument would be, the same effect could be seen on a person with olive-skin. Of course, the effect wouldn't be as powerful as someone of a darker complexion in the SSA variety.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/84/38/69/8438693a6056295b4a0255859097e5d9.jpg

Numbers 12:9-11
9And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed. 10And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

This verse comes from God punishing Miriam, the sister of Moses, for her resentment of Moses marrying a non-Hebrew Cushite (also called Ethiopian depending on the biblical version). Again the interpretation is, if Miriam were white what would be the punishment of turning her white. These verses from Leviticus 13 are lengthy but goes into detail on how AH priests would heal leprosy:

...4: If the bright spot be white in the skin of his flesh, the priest shall shut up him that has the plague seven days...
6: And the priest shall look on him again the seventh day: and behold, if the plague be somewhat dark, and the plague spread not in the skin, the priest shall pronounce him clean: it is but a scab; and he shall wash his clothes and be clean.

The interpretation for "dark" when referring to skin can still be wide and varied.


Do you believe that Ancient Hebrews were as dark as Nilotes:\?

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
12-27-2016, 03:05 PM
Do you believe that Ancient Hebrews were as dark as Nilotes:\?


Some West African tribes claim ancient Hebrew ancestry like the Yoruba and Balanta for example, they are believed to have links to Ancient Egypt apparently...

Gravetto-Danubian
12-27-2016, 03:24 PM
Despite some of the erroneous claims from the Hebrew Israelites, I still can't dismiss their argument regarding leprosy (ie. vitiligo). These are some of their most convincing scriptural arguments for a "non-white" ethnicity of AHs. If taken into consideration, it's enough to raise doubt on whats considered the "conventional" appearance of AHs:


Just minor point: vitiligo and leprosy are different entities which cause depigmentation as part of their pathology.
Leprosy is an infectious disease (bacteria is Similar tuberculosis); in addition loss of pigment, one gets sensory loss, mutilating deformities of affected soft tissues, etc.

Vitiligo is an autoimmune disease, it's mostly just a cosmetic nuisance.- patches of depigmented skin. It can affect any race, but would be more noticeable on darker complexions. Michael Jackson was said to have Vitiligi, which with compensatory bleaching to even the non-affected skin up might explain his change in skin colour (but not why his facial structure changed from a handsome African male to a creepy white chick:)).

Yahanon
12-27-2016, 03:35 PM
@NiloSaharan: Very interesting post. I'm familiar with Hebrew Israelites. IMO, it's difficult to discuss AHs without the benefit of the Biblical narrative. It is central to the discussion.

AH admixtures, according to the Bible, were predominately with descendants of Ham (Canaanites, Ethiopians, Egyptians). According to the text, patriarchal characters like Abraham, Jacob, Judah, Moses, David and Solomon did so.

As you pointed out, the extra-Biblical sources such as the Assyrian reliefs, Egyptian frescoes and historians like Tacitus seem to harmonize with the Biblical narrative of how the AHs appeared. "Many assure us that the Jews are descended from those Ethiopians who were driven by fear and hatred to emigrate from their home country..." -Tacitus

Akra20m
12-27-2016, 07:25 PM
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "I saw Moses, Jesus and Abraham (on the night of my Ascension to the heavens). Jesus was of red complexion, curly hair and a broad chest. Moses was of brown complexion, straight hair and tall stature as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt."
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "On the night of my Ascension to Heaven, I saw (the prophet) Moses who was a thin person with lank hair, looking like one of the men of the tribe of Shanua;


Interesting things are being discussed in this thread. I would like just to comment on the names of people mentioned here. I could not locate the Hadith mentioning Az-Zutt, so I am not sure how the name is written in Arabic. Hopefully you can help me with that drobbah.
Regarding Shanua شنوة, also known as شنوءة الأزد Shanua of Azd. It is an Arabic tribe belongs to Azd. You can read about them in Arabic from this link.
https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D8%B2%D8%AF_%D8%B4%D9%86%D9%88%D8%A1%D8%A9
and here is an articular about Azd.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azd
I found this picture which they say it is for a person from Shanua.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cN-867O8Jto/maxresdefault.jpg

Regards

beyoku
12-27-2016, 08:04 PM
With so many African genetic mysteries to be solved, viewing or dissecting the genetic history of the ancient Near East under an African lense......especially by amateurs is a waste of time and effort. Especially when our proverbial house is on fire.

Power77
12-27-2016, 09:20 PM
Some West African tribes claim ancient Hebrew ancestry like the Yoruba and Balanta for example, they are believed to have links to Ancient Egypt apparently...

I doubt that their claims are ancient and legit tough:\. They most likely originated with Christian missionaries.

Yahanon
12-27-2016, 09:59 PM
With so many African genetic mysteries to be solved, viewing or dissecting the genetic history of the ancient Near East under an African lense......especially by amateurs is a waste of time and effort. Especially when our proverbial house is on fire.

Africa's genetic landscape is fascinating and is proving to be much more expansive than initially thought. I'd like experts and amateurs to pursue it all.

Angoliga
12-27-2016, 10:13 PM
Interesting post!

I came across these Ahaadith in my early teens after my first encounter with these Nation of Islam folks outside a mall lol.This is what I found from Islams most authentic text after the Quran.

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "I saw Moses, Jesus and Abraham (on the night of my Ascension to the heavens). Jesus was of red complexion, curly hair and a broad chest. Moses was of brown complexion, straight hair and tall stature as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt."
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "On the night of my Ascension to Heaven, I saw (the prophet) Moses who was a thin person with lank hair, looking like one of the men of the tribe of Shanua; and I saw jesus who was of average height with red face as if he had just come out of a bathroom. And I resemble prophet Abraham more than any of his offspring does.


Obviously these are just religious texts and should not be taken as evidence or proof of Moses complexion but it is interesting that Bible and Muhammad are both pointing out that Moses was a colored person.I have a feeling that the people of Zutt Muhammad was mentioning was a probably a NE African population.

I have the same regard for religious texts, thanks for emphasizing this.

Lol, I also first came across these topics in my teens -- I'm not sure their religion or denomination but I'm sure you've also seen those guys outside of Eaton Center trying to sell pamphlets on Black History lol. I always ignored them and they'd still holler at me "Hay Brotherman!" smh

Relating to "black" history, it's been a continuous challenge deciphering the false claims between Afrocentrics and the mainstream school of thought.



Do you believe that Ancient Hebrews were as dark as Nilotes:\?

Do I sense a patronizing tone? :)

If we're to take these religious texts with any merit, I think the complexion of Ancient Hebrews would have been as varied as those present in NE African populations. This would include those found in Cushitic populations. It's interesting to note, even within Cushitic populations of significant Eurasian ancestry, comparable darker Nilotic complexions can be found -- this earlier post demonstrates this:


...(Here are several Tigrinyas in Tigray (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WNWpmRUhLM1JsZDQ?usp=sharing). These are legit "Abyssinians" who are practically the peak of West-Eurasian ancestry in Ethiopia)...

The same could be said regarding the Beja (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beja_people), another Cushitic population that inhabits Sudan, as well as parts of Eritrea, Egypt, and the Eastern Desert.

As mentioned earlier, Moses' wife Zipporah is described as either a Cushitic or Ethiopian woman (depending on the biblical ver.Numbers 12) - both populations are indisputably people of colour yet she's seldom ever represented as such at least from what I can recollect from Sunday School and biblical films/childhood shows my parents forced me to watch :\


If you'll indulge me, here's my last scriptural reference - I promise :) ... the Ancient Hebrews are said to have entered Egypt only numbering 66-77 people...
Exodus 1:5 The descendants of Jacob numbered seventy in all; Joseph was already in Egypt. (NIV)

Genesis 46:26-27 All those who went to Egypt with Jacob - those who were his direct descendants, not counting his sons' wives - numbered sixty-six persons. 27 With the two sons who had been born to Joseph in Egypt, the members of Jacob's family, which went to Egypt, were seventy in all. (NIV)

Deuteronomy 10:22 Your forefathers who went down into Egypt were seventy in all, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars in the sky. (NIV)

Acts 7:14 After this, Joseph sent for his father Jacob and his whole family, seventy-five in all. (NIV)

..and according to Exodus 12:3738, the Israelites numbered "about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children," plus many non-Israelites and livestock. Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550 men aged 20 and up.

If the AHs were in Egypt for ~430 years, Gal. iii. 17... and four hundred and thirty years after that promise, came Israel out of bondage."... would it be entirely inconceivable that many intermarried and assimilated with the local NE African population?

I think of the aggressive Luo expansion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luo_peoples#Kenya_and_Tanzania) some 500 years ago into modern Kenya, a Nilo-Saharan speaking population that still self-identifies as Nilotic despite having an average Nilo-Saharan affinity of ~10% compared to "Proto-Luos" from South-Sudan with an average NS Affinity over 70%. The speed of their expansion and polygamous assimilation of the Bantu NK speakers meant a drastic autosomal contrast of this ethnic group. Could a similar scenario have occurred with the AHs in Egypt?


@NiloSaharan: Very interesting post. I'm familiar with Hebrew Israelites. IMO, it's difficult to discuss AHs without the benefit of the Biblical narrative. It is central to the discussion.

AH admixtures, according to the Bible, were predominately with descendants of Ham (Canaanites, Ethiopians, Egyptians). According to the text, patriarchal characters like Abraham, Jacob, Judah, Moses, David and Solomon did so.

As you pointed out, the extra-Biblical sources such as the Assyrian reliefs, Egyptian frescoes and historians like Tacitus seem to harmonize with the Biblical narrative of how the AHs appeared. "Many assure us that the Jews are descended from those Ethiopians who were driven by fear and hatred to emigrate from their home country..." -Tacitus

I think you misunderstood me, I don't think the Assyrian reliefs of AHs resemble contemporary SSAs -- IMO they look as Asiatic as the Assyrians.

Yes, but Tacitus' interpretations on the origin of AHs had a lot of speculation, mythology and hearsay -- I wouldn't hold refer to it with any serious merit. in the same paragraph you quoted he also states the AHs were "The Jews are said to have been refugees from the island of Crete who settled in the remotest corner of Libya in the days when, according to the story, Saturn was driven from his throne by the aggression of Jupiter."

Here's the full quote (https://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/tacitusc/histries/chap18.htm)

Pardon the rant, I know this is all open to interpretation and way off topic:focus:

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 02:08 AM
@NiloSaharan:
I understood you. I just had poor sentence structure. I can't argue with how you view them as Asiatic, etc. I think Africans, including SSAs, have a broader range of phenotypes than readily comes to mind.

You said - Yes, but Tacitus' interpretations on the origin of AHs had a lot of speculation, mythology and hearsay -- I wouldn't hold refer to it with any serious merit.

This is an issue with nearly all ancient historians. I credit him for advancing two Jewish origin arguments, one of which involved wordplay (Mt. Ida/Iudea). The other relating to physical attributes IMO.

beyoku
12-28-2016, 12:31 PM
Here is a indepth debunking (https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=BpVJzLFQ9ro) of negrocentric black Hebrew doctrine. IMO, any new world black trying to reconcile these teaching even after they have taken a DNA test either doesn't understand science or they have an abnormal dose of self hate.

Agamemnon
12-28-2016, 03:59 PM
Want to know what the Israelites looked like? Just go spend some time in Holon or in Qiryat Luzah.

Angoliga
12-28-2016, 04:03 PM
I didn't watch the full clip but I agree with the debunking of an African-American connection with Ancient Hebrews but not so much on the narrator's views of Ancient Egyptians not being "negroes" -- I had to stop the clip there lol. IMHO there's enough genetic and historic evidence to suggest the Ancient Egyptians had a significant SSA affinity.

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 04:16 PM
This topic produces visceral responses. "Standard" thinking until recently was that Ancient Hebrews were scattered to all corners of the globe EXCEPT Africa. Obviously to entertain the idea of African descendants of AHs would conflict with multiple layers of racism and insane claims of superiority in society, religion and all of the sciences.

So, IMO many STILL take issue with the Lemba, Beta Israel and any other African claimants. Many also believe that somehow their acknowledgement or approval is required to validate other's claims. The visceral responses/confirmation biases seem to intensify re scattered Africans.

Tz85
12-28-2016, 04:20 PM
Their is absolutely zero connection between the Israelites, and West Africans in any way shape or form. That goes for Genetics,

Awale
12-28-2016, 05:00 PM
Want to know what the Israelites looked like? Just go spend some time in Holon or in Qiryat Luzah.

To be honest, I'm pretty confused by how some here are taking any implications that the Israelites weren't pale-as-milk to mean that they were notably dark-skinned (i.e. like the middle two row Somalis here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WbmRRa0tDSHJENFU/view?usp=sharing)). "Brown" or whatever can be somewhat broad and, ultimately, it's not like the people in the Levant today, even when counting Western Jews, are a uniformly very pale lot that this sort of talk would be really surprising for:


6 And the Lord said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. 7 And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh. 8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.

I mean damn, the average person among Lebanese folk even today is basically rather olive (https://www.google.ae/search?q=olive+skin&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=638&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKjLqyrpfRAhXde1AKHfJaA78Q_AUIBigB) in complexion, all of this OWD (off-"white"-dilemma) stuff one sees online aside.

Power77
12-28-2016, 05:00 PM
Just go spend some time in Holon or in Qiryat Luzah.

But should we look at the local Samaritans or at the local Jews there:\?

Tz85
12-28-2016, 05:04 PM
West Africans not only have no connection Israelites genetically, they also have no connection to the Egyptians. Their only connection is them being from the same continent. Genetically nothing alike.

Awale
12-28-2016, 05:09 PM
West Africans not only have no connection Israelites genetically, they also have no connection to the Egyptians. Their only connection is them being from the same continent. Genetically nothing alike.

Well, modern Egyptians do have West-Central related admixture and the Ancient Egyptians, regardless of the levels of this ancestry, like modern Copts and Muslim Egyptians, would've definitely had "East African" type ancestry (something even Bronze Age Levantines clearly seem to have had to some extent) which is rather distantly related to the "West African" cluster. So hyperbolic stuff like "ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION" is kind of incorrect but yes; there is overall no "real" historical and notable genetic connection that I know of. It's about as off as East-Central Asian Turkic speakers claiming the Sumerians, in my humble opinion.

Power77
12-28-2016, 05:10 PM
To be honest, I'm pretty confused by how some here are taking any implications that the Israelites weren't pale-as-milk to mean that they were notably dark-skinned (i.e. like the middle two row Somalis here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WbmRRa0tDSHJENFU/view?usp=sharing)). "Brown" or whatever can be somewhat broad and, ultimately, it's not like the people in the Levant today, even when counting Western Jews, are a uniformly very pale lot that this sort of talk would be really surprising for:



I mean damn, the average person among Lebanese folk even today is basically rather olive (https://www.google.ae/search?q=olive+skin&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=638&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKjLqyrpfRAhXde1AKHfJaA78Q_AUIBigB) in complexion, all of this OWD (off-"white"-dilemma) stuff one sees online aside.

I think we can all agree that the Ancient Hebrews didn't look like Scandinavians, Slavs, Brits and/or Germans. :biggrin1:

Tz85
12-28-2016, 05:12 PM
I think we can all agree that the Ancient Hebrews didn't look like Scandinavians, Slavs, Brits and/or Germans. :biggrin1:

If they looked like anything, it would be Italian, Greek. As the ancient Levantines did.

Agamemnon
12-28-2016, 05:15 PM
But should we look at the local Samaritans or at the local Jews there:\?

Both... With a special focus on the Samaritans ;) They look similar anyway.

Awale
12-28-2016, 05:20 PM
If they looked like anything, it would be Italian, Greek. As the ancient Levantines did.

Nah, what Agamemnon said is probably much more accurate. If you wanna imagine the Levant as a whole back then... I'd seriously just close my eyes and imagine Samaritans, Cypriots as well as more "Arabian" type populations like Negev Bedouins and/or Southern Levantines like modern Palestinians. Basically just some East Med and predominantly West Asian folks, my humble opinion anyway.

Tz85
12-28-2016, 05:24 PM
Nah, what Agamemnon said is probably much more accurate. If you wanna imagine the Levant as a whole back then... I'd seriously just close my eyes and imagine Samaritans, Cypriots as well as more "Arabian" type populations like Negev Bedouins or Southern Levantines like modern Palestinians. Basically just some East Med and predominantly West Asian folks, my humble opinion anyway.

Cypriots are Greeks. Greeks and Italians have Anatolian admixture, as do Samaritans.

Awale
12-28-2016, 05:28 PM
Cypriots are Greeks.

Heh, I knew you'd somehow bring this up. Cypriots are nothing like actual Greek mainlanders like Thessalians and islanders like Cretans. They cluster a lot closer to the Lebanese:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WWEx4bnFWSTc2dWM/view?usp=sharing

In fact, Western Jews cluster closer to mainland and islander Greeks than Cypriots do. They're just, genetically, a Levantine population. And Samaritans are seriously closer to Negev Bedouins than to Italians or the likes of mainland Greeks. My point still stands. You can't use Samaritans and Cypriots as stand-ins for the Greeks and Italians I know you're thinking of.

Angoliga
12-28-2016, 05:34 PM
I mean damn, the average person among Lebanese folk even today is basically rather olive (https://www.google.ae/search?q=olive+skin&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=638&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKjLqyrpfRAhXde1AKHfJaA78Q_AUIBigB) in complexion, all of this OWD (off-"white"-dilemma) stuff one sees online aside.

..DAMN! some hot girls on that olive skin link

To bring the point back, I'm just taken aback that people are so averse to considering AHs didn't all look like Charlton Heston (https://www.google.ca/search?q=charlton+heston&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ5pKIsZfRAhVHzoMKHanJAZAQ_AUICCgB&biw=1241&bih=606#imgrc=PWWHZOLn42m6jM%3A). (that's not taking away from his exceptional performance; this is undoubtedly my favourite classical large-scale hollywood production:)

Does making the point that the AHs had a wider spectrum of complexion or that Moses wife is never depicted as a Cushite\Ethiopian (as mentioned in scripture Numbers 12:1) make me an afrocentric? I'd hope not.

Awale
12-28-2016, 05:42 PM
To bring the point back, I'm just taken aback that people are so adverse to considering AHs didn't all look like Charlton Heston (https://www.google.ca/search?q=charlton+heston&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ5pKIsZfRAhVHzoMKHanJAZAQ_AUICCgB&biw=1241&bih=606#imgrc=PWWHZOLn42m6jM%3A). (that's not taking away from his exceptional performance; this is undoubtedly my favourite classical large-scale hollywood production:)

Heh, I'm pretty sure most of the people in this thread are not of the opinion that they mostly looked like Charlton Heston:


I think we can all agree that the Ancient Hebrews didn't look like Scandinavians, Slavs, Brits and/or Germans. :biggrin1:


;)

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 05:53 PM
1335713358

ITALIANS?

Tz85
12-28-2016, 05:58 PM
1335713358

ITALIANS?

Do you have any Idea the origins of Southern Italians? Seriously

Awale
12-28-2016, 05:59 PM
1335713358

ITALIANS?

Okay, I would normally delete such a post but I'll leave it be in order for it to serve as a warning for what not to do here. This is kind of an unnecessary and goading-type post here. I already explained to Tz85, via some genomics, why his claim is somewhat unlikely... There's no need for a post like this where you just seem like you're going to goad him or others into an unnecessary and subjective argument about whom these vague as heck depictions resemble.

No more posts like this, guys. Keep things civil.


Do you have any Idea the origins of Southern Italians? Seriously

Unless you've been reading nothing but Sikeliot's work over at "The Apricity"; Southern Italians aren't exactly transplants from the Levant. They're basically an intermediate sort of population between the likes of non-Western Jewish Levantines (Samaritans & Lebanese in particular) and Italians like Tuscans as well as Greeks like Thessalians:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2A...ew?usp=sharing

So I don't even get what sort of point you're trying to make here. Anyway, end this fruitless tangent here. You guys keep this tangent up and I'm going to come down on you both with infractions.

beyoku
12-28-2016, 06:56 PM
Their is absolutely zero connection between the Israelites, and West Africans in any way shape or form. That goes for Genetics,

This is patently false as there are Levantine specific lineages stemming from a West African root - See Y-dna E-M33.
There are also African maternal lineages, again many stemming from a West African root that are hypothesized to have been in Europe for over 10,000 years.
...They likely had a trans Saharan spread into the Levant....as I recall L2a was found in Tell Halula 8500ybp.

Agamemnon
12-28-2016, 07:01 PM
1335713358

ITALIANS?

For the record, the individuals you can see on this relief (which comes from the palace of Sennacherib and depicts the capture of the Judean city of Lakish) are likely to be Nubians or Kushite officers sent by Taharqa to slow down the Assyrian expansion towards Egypt and the kingdom of Kush (the kingdoms of Judah and Israel were more often than not politically aligned with Egypt against Mesopotamian empires), not Judeans.

Here's another part of the Lakish reliefs where you can see the actual inhabitants of Lakish being deported (which was standard practice under the Neo-Assyrian empire, the Assyrians had mastered the art of psychological warfare):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Judaean_people_are_being_deported_into_exile_after _the_capture_of_Lachish..JPG

They look pretty similar to modern-day Samaritans and Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews... Unsurprisingly so, since we are descended from the Judeans.

beyoku
12-28-2016, 07:12 PM
This topic produces visceral responses. "Standard" thinking until recently was that Ancient Hebrews were scattered to all corners of the globe EXCEPT Africa. Obviously to entertain the idea of African descendants of AHs would conflict with multiple layers of racism and insane claims of superiority in society, religion and all of the sciences.

So, IMO many STILL take issue with the Lemba, Beta Israel and any other African claimants. Many also believe that somehow their acknowledgement or approval is required to validate other's claims. The visceral responses/confirmation biases seem to intensify re scattered Africans.

I Would argue the Middle Eastern genetic affinity of Beta Israel and Lemba are a totally different argument to African Americans, New world people of African descent and whole swathes of Native Americans having genetic relations to historical Hebrews. There is more than enough evidence regarding Ethiopians and South Africans. As for "So called African Americans" and Natives the evidence is pretty lacking when it comes to genetic proof. We have very clear....actually extremely clear....unambiguous ancestry from mostly Senegambian and West Central African non-Bantu Niger Kordofanian speakers....and to a lesser extent Bantu speakers, Sahelians and various other Non-Nilotic/Non Afroasiatic Sub Saharan Africans...and probably in that order.

Its all good to hope to be related to some group you have been taught was great....but to get to the point were we are using E1b1a as the defining marker that produces the affinity between Lemba and Hebrews and therefore African American and Hebrews.....we are simply lying to ourselves, or not understanding the science while attempting to smash a square peg into a round hole.

Megalophias
12-28-2016, 07:15 PM
as I recall L2a was found in Tell Halula 8500ybp.
The L2a was not included in the updated version of that study, so is of dubious value. However, there is now an L3 from there.

Awale
12-28-2016, 07:24 PM
I Would argue the Middle Eastern genetic affinity of Beta Israel and Lemba are a totally different argument to African Americans, New world people of African descent and whole swathes of Native Americans having genetic relations to historical Hebrews. There is more than enough evidence regarding Ethiopians and South Africans. As for "So called African Americans" and Natives the evidence is pretty lacking when it comes to genetic proof. We have very clear....actually extremely clear....unambiguous ancestry from mostly Senegambian and West Central African non-Bantu Niger Kordofanian speakers....and to a lesser extent Bantu speakers, Sahelians and various other Non-Nilotic/Non Afroasiatic Sub Saharan Africans...and probably in that order.

Its all good to hope to be related to some group you have been taught was great....but to get to the point were we are using E1b1a the defining marker that produces the affinity between Lemba and Hebrews and therefore African American and Hebrews.....we are simply lying to ourselves, or not understanding the science while attempting to smash a square peg into a round hole.

Very well put. I'd only add the following regarding the Beta Israel:


Genomically, they're basically just Somalis with 10-20% Ari (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/06/the-african-west-eurasian-elements-in.html) Blacksmith-like admixture plus some 10-15% Copt/Yemenite Jew-like admixture (see here (https://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/04/the-jewishness-of-ethiopian-jews_7.html?), here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/06/the-african-west-eurasian-elements-in.html) and here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/05/using-somalis-as-proxy-second-attempt.html)). Plus, their native tongues were Central-Cushitic/Agw (dialects of Qimant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qimant_language)) whilst their historical written language was Ge'ez, like with most pre-Early Modern Northern Highlanders. Though I've read of reports that they used to sometimes transcribe their own Central-Cushitic dialects with the Ge'ez script... Anyway, it's indeed somewhat doubted that they're even "real historical converts" because of some of these non-genomic facts. Some think they're just Northern Highlander Christians practicing some weird "Old-testament" form of the local Christianity, coupled with some old pagan elements.

But who knows... Genetically, culturally and linguistically they're really just Ethiopians though. I'm quite serious when I say their material culture and some of their customs historically had more in common with the material culture and certain customs of Somalis all the way in Mogadishu than with Yemenite Jews or Western Jews at any point in time. In fact, Habeshas, like Tigrinya member Lank (http://www.anthrogenica.com/member.php?37-Lank), are slightly closer, genetically speaking, to Western & Eastern Jews than Ethiopian Jews are.

Literally the only thing remotely close to proof I've ever seen people bring up with them is that they have some E-M34 carriers among them which doesn't say much since this marker is found all over the Horn and even seems to peak among Omotic speakers (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/06/omotic-speakers-uniparental-data.html), whom they have admixture from. Pointed this out to a long-time commenter at Anthromadness I recently banned (see comment section here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/04/the-jewishness-of-ethiopian-jews_7.html)).

Agamemnon
12-28-2016, 07:27 PM
Much has been said about the Lembas' CMH, but I must say I have yet to see a Lemba who tested positive for J1-Z18271 or J2a-F659 (if they did, that would definitely vindicate their claims).

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 07:33 PM
13361

beyoku
12-28-2016, 07:37 PM
I didn't watch the full clip but I agree with the debunking of an African-American connection with Ancient Hebrews but not so much on the narrator's views of Ancient Egyptians not being "negroes" -- I had to stop the clip there lol. IMHO there's enough genetic and historic evidence to suggest the Ancient Egyptians had a significant SSA affinity.

While I will agree, I will state I think the situation regarding African substructure is going to be more complicated than we expect, Natufian has already hinted at it. And Remember, there is very little ANCIENT genetic evidence.
So far I dont see anyone making the argument that the Early root lineages M215/M35 have an origin on the Asian Side of the Red Sea. At 14,000 years ago we already have "Negroid" Looking Natufian carrying Paternal lineages probably from Egypt with measurably No Sub Saharan Autosomal affinity. Did they lose the African affinity? Furthermore what autosomal affinity was responsible for later introductions of E-V68 outside of Africa? So Far in both cases the evidence is showing it wasn't a clear Sub Saharan one. I think we will see that very early Northern Saharans or Cultures like Fayoum A have ancestors that were transitional populations as far as 'African and non-African' long in prehistory. So long ago that by 14000 Natufian could be a very similar autosomal population to aboriginal pre-historic North East African hunter gatherers.

I think that its going to be the later pastoralists and other Khartoum Mesolithic like populations that contribute more typical "Sub Saharan" profiles into prehistoric Egypt. Eyeballying skulls and taking metric data from Skulls giving us populations we view as "Negroids" and equating that with Sub Saharan Ancestry may be misplaced if we are unsure how long and how far south these hypothetical populations persisted. Remember we were thinking Natfians were West African when looking at cranial metric data.

Awale
12-28-2016, 07:37 PM
13361

Care to elaborate?

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 07:46 PM
I Would argue the Middle Eastern genetic affinity of Beta Israel and Lemba are a totally different argument to African Americans, New world people of African descent and whole swathes of Native Americans having genetic relations to historical Hebrews. There is more than enough evidence regarding Ethiopians and South Africans. As for "So called African Americans" and Natives the evidence is pretty lacking when it comes to genetic proof. We have very clear....actually extremely clear....unambiguous ancestry from mostly Senegambian and West Central African non-Bantu Niger Kordofanian speakers....and to a lesser extent Bantu speakers, Sahelians and various other Non-Nilotic/Non Afroasiatic Sub Saharan Africans...and probably in that order.

Its all good to hope to be related to some group you have been taught was great....but to get to the point were we are using E1b1a the defining marker that produces the affinity between Lemba and Hebrews and therefore African American and Hebrews.....we are simply lying to ourselves, or not understanding the science while attempting to smash a square peg into a round hole.

Just to be clear, IMO fringe Hebrew Israelite dogma (Native Americans...) is not central to this thread. I don't think anyone is espousing that or arguing from that position, nor advancing E1b1a.

I've read Beta Israel is genetically identical to the general Ethiopian population. You state there's "enough evidence". Are you speaking of genetic or cultural evidence?

beyoku
12-28-2016, 07:55 PM
Just to be clear, IMO fringe Hebrew Israelite dogma (Native Americans...) is not central to this thread. I don't think anyone is espousing that or arguing from that position, nor advancing E1b1a.

I've read Beta Israel is genetically identical to the general Ethiopian population. You state there's "enough evidence". Are you speaking of genetic or cultural evidence.

Let me rephrase what I meant. I think their is clear genetic evidence of both groups having genetic affinity with populations from the Middle East.. If Scholars and or Jews want to Tie Ethiopians to the Tribe of Dan that's up to them.

Awale
12-28-2016, 07:57 PM
So far I dont see anyone making the argument that the Early root lineages M215/M35 have an origin on the Asian Side of the Red Sea. At 14,000 years ago we already have "Negroid"... Remember we were thinking Natfians were West African when looking at cranial metric data.

I'd tone it down with the use of old mega-race terminologies. I get that you're clearly just using them as descriptive terms but this can easily trigger input from someone who sips the entirety of the old pseudoscientific stuff surrounding the terms. Anyway, the Natufians so far tested for their Craniometric data did not look like "West Africans" at all, from what I recall. It also a small sample-size (4 samples), unless you've heard of many other samples I haven't? Anyway, the four remains did show a clear West-Central African shift in comparison to other West Eurasians (in fact, Somali and Bronze Age Naqadans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naqada_culture) are far less African shifted than they are):

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E9kP6RhjaQQ/V6mFFq3347I/AAAAAAAAFOc/LUTQQZrcKBsVWYR-UF4JfTL_aA6zxbkuQCPcB/s1600/y0.png

Source: The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form, Brace et al. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/)

In that plot, based on these variables (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/table/tbl2/), they essentially look like they could very well be craniofacial intermediates between Upper-Paleolithic Europeans and the Dahomey-Congo-Haya bunch rather than full-on African looking. They also show clear but more remote affinities for various pre-historic West-Eurasians in the dendrogram (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/figure/fig1/). I'm also, on another note, not truly convinced they entirely lack "East African" type admixture. As David once noted, everything from PCAs to Fst to ADMIXTURE to tree-mix imply they have at least some of such admixture (1-10%) and only the likes of D-stats imply otherwise. Something's amiss when one or two types of methodologies are contradicted by all others. But that's a different discussion...

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 08:07 PM
Care to elaborate?

Speaks for itself. The depiction shows individuals who are likely Ancient Hebrews. It can be argued that the garments reflect the tenets of Numbers 15:38.

Awale
12-28-2016, 08:12 PM
Speaks for itself. The depiction shows individuals who are likely Ancient Hebrews. It can be argued that the garments reflect the tenets of Numbers 15:38.

And what exactly was the point in sharing that? How does that add anything to the discussion? :|

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 08:18 PM
And what exactly was the point in sharing that? How does that add anything to the discussion? :|

It added similar value to Agamemnon's last post of a relief on page 5 of the thread. Take a look.

Secondly, because of your previous position I decided not to post any words with the pic. Still insufficient?

Awale
12-28-2016, 08:23 PM
Still insufficient?

Don't get cheeky.


It added similar value to Agamemnon's last post of a relief on page 5 of the thread. Take a look.

Secondly, because of your previous position I decided not to post any words with the pic.

... You're allowed to comment on new things, of course. Just so long as you abandoned that provocative "ITALIANS?" tangent that was going to do nothing but stir up a low-brow argument between you and Tz85. Anyway, that post just looks like you were practically spamming without adding text to explain what you thought while sharing the pic. If you disagreed with Agamemnon's prior post somehow; I never said you were forbidden from arguing with him. Just so long as you kept things civil and preferably used evidence to back-up your counter-arguments; you'd see no Moderator-esque interjections from me.

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
12-28-2016, 08:30 PM
Much has been said about the Lembas' CMH, but I must say I have yet to see a Lemba who tested positive for J1-Z18271 or J2a-F659 (if they did, that would definitely vindicate their claims).

In most places you go in Africa they'll always be claims of Israelite ancestry, I also think that to break the claims DNA testing and archaeological evidence is more trustworthy than just claims and more needs to be done. There's also some things we don't know like did the Ancient Egyptians interact with Niger/Congo speaking groups as well as Cushite's from 'the land of punt' and Nilotes from Nubia?. If there was any decent research to be done on this id have some strength of belief on this.

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 08:47 PM
In most places you go in Africa they'll always be claims of Israelite ancestry, I also think that to break the claims DNA testing and archaeological evidence is more trustworthy than just claims and more needs to be done. There's also some things we don't know like did the Ancient Egyptians interact with Niger/Congo speaking groups as well as Cushite's from 'the land of punt' and Nilotes from Nubia?. If there was any decent research to be done on this id have some strength of belief on this.

Balanced, objective research I hope. In many of those places the claims are coupled with circumcision, certain Yahwist Creator concepts, Torah-like marriage and inheritance laws and other significant customs.

Tz85
12-28-2016, 08:59 PM
For some reason every one wants to be Jewish. The solution is simple. Convert to Judaism, and become a Jew. Many many populations claim to be descent from this tribe or that tribe, when in all reality they have no genetic connection.

John Doe
12-28-2016, 08:59 PM
Balanced, objective research I hope. In many of those places the claims are coupled with circumcision, certain Yahwist Creator concepts, Torah-like marriage and inheritance laws and other significant customs.

Circumcision has been practiced throughout the region for thousands of years most likely, so that's kind of irrelevant. Care to elaborate about the " certain Yahwist Creator concepts, Torah-like marriage and inheritance laws and other significant customs."?

Agamemnon
12-28-2016, 09:00 PM
Yahanon, since you seem to think the Judeans looked like sub-Saharan Africans, I'm expecting you to explain the following:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Sestertius_-_Vespasiano_-_Iudaea_Capta-RIC_0424.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Titus_Augustus_Denarius.png

These coins were issued by the Romans under Vespasian following their conquest of Judea, you can clearly read "IVDEA CAPTA" on the first, they all include a depiction of a Judean rebel with his hands tied behind his back, on the second coin the Judean rebel is kneeling. Does this rebel look sub-Saharan African to you? By all means, explain.

Tz85
12-28-2016, 09:02 PM
Yahanon, since you seem to think the Judeans looked like sub-Saharan Africans, I'm expecting you to explain the following:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Sestertius_-_Vespasiano_-_Iudaea_Capta-RIC_0424.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Titus_Augustus_Denarius.png

These coins were issued by the Romans under Vespasian following their conquest of Judea, you can clearly read "IVDEA CAPTA" on the first, they all include a depiction of a Judean rebel with his hands tied behind his back, on the second coin the Judean rebel is kneeling. Does this rebel look sub-Saharan African to you? By all means, explain.

Looks more like an Italian or Greek? ;)

John Doe
12-28-2016, 09:03 PM
Looks more like an Italian or Greek? ;)

Well I mean, look at the one bending his knee, then look at his nose. xD

Awale
12-28-2016, 09:13 PM
Well I mean, look at the one bending his knee, then look at his nose. xD

A regular Josephus (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Josephusbust.jpg/250px-Josephusbust.jpg). :eyebrows: But yes, I'd like to see Yahanon's counter-arguments here.

Tz85
12-28-2016, 09:15 PM
Well I mean, look at the one bending his knee, then look at his nose. xD

No way bro, he don't look Italian or Greek, he looks West African lol. Jk

Agamemnon
12-28-2016, 09:18 PM
Do not mock or make fun of other members, thank you.

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 09:20 PM
Yahanon, since you seem to think the Judeans looked like sub-Saharan Africans, I'm expecting you to explain the following:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Sestertius_-_Vespasiano_-_Iudaea_Capta-RIC_0424.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Titus_Augustus_Denarius.png

These coins were issued by the Romans under Vespasian following their conquest of Judea, you can clearly read "IVDEA CAPTA" on the first, they all include a depiction of a Judean rebel with his hands tied behind his back, on the second coin the Judean rebel is kneeling. Does this rebel look sub-Saharan African to you? By all means, explain.

As I've said before, I think they looked exactly as they were depicted. In fact, the images on these coins don't help your argument. They are completely different than images of AHs I've seen, some of which I've posted here. All 4 coins appear to clearly depict Romans. The 2nd figure that you claim is bound, is wearing a Roman toga in a serene setting. The 4th image does not on its face say anything regarding Judea.

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 09:26 PM
For some reason every one wants to be Jewish. The solution is simple. Convert to Judaism, and become a Jew. Many many populations claim to be descent from this tribe or that tribe, when in all reality they have no genetic connection.

From what I've read, the push is not that "every one wants to be Jewish". In fact, the Lemba and some others have no interest in "converting" to Talmudic Judaism or in joining mainstream Judaism. Their point is they were scattered as the Torah states and they are who they say they are. And for them I think most geneticist say there is a definite connection.

Tz85
12-28-2016, 09:27 PM
From what I've read, the push is not that "every one wants to be Jewish". In fact, the Lemba and some others have no interest in "converting" to Talmudic Judaism or in joining mainstream Judaism. There point is they were scattered as the Torah states and they are who they say they are. And for them I think most geneticist say there is a definite connection.

The lemba are connected? Source? Not a old ydna study I would assume.

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 09:35 PM
Circumcision has been practiced throughout the region for thousands of years most likely, so that's kind of irrelevant. Care to elaborate about the " certain Yahwist Creator concepts, Torah-like marriage and inheritance laws and other significant customs."?

Circumcision is widespread but not irrelevant, IMO. Here's one example for each: Yahwist Creator concepts refers to pre-Exilic beliefs and practices. Marriage - the marrying of a deceased brother's wife by surviving brother. Inheritance - priestly prohibitions from owning/inheritance of property, etc.

Awale
12-28-2016, 09:38 PM
As I've said before, I think they looked exactly as they were depicted. In fact, the images on these coins don't help your argument. They are completely different than images of AHs I've seen, some of which I've posted here. All 4 coins appear to clearly depict Romans. The 2nd figure that you claim is bound, is wearing a Roman toga in a serene setting. The 4th image does not on its face say anything regarding Judea.

You should stop dancing around the subject, in my humble opinion. The sort of mostly 2D and often pretty stylistic depictions we have don't truly mean anything at the end of the day. It's not like we're dealing with detailed illustrations like these depictions of Early Modern Abyssinians or something:

http://oi63.tinypic.com/1zmmrtl.jpg

.
.

http://oi66.tinypic.com/s620lv.jpg

.
.

http://oi67.tinypic.com/f1ac5e.jpg

.
.

http://oi67.tinypic.com/mpze8.jpg

No one's going to bite off your head if you simply state that you believe they looked very "African-shifted" in phenotype. Do you believe they resembled Western Africans or Nubians or even Horn Africans such as Beta Israels, Habeshas and Somalis? Seriously, get blunt about this. It's really difficult to get what you're trying to say since you seem to be arguing against the idea that they would've looked like this which makes good sense with both the current ancient and modern DNA:


Want to know what the Israelites looked like? Just go spend some time in Holon or in Qiryat Luzah.


But should we look at the local Samaritans or at the local Jews there:\?


Both... With a special focus on the Samaritans ;) They look similar anyway.


Nah, what Agamemnon said is probably much more accurate. If you wanna imagine the Levant as a whole back then... I'd seriously just close my eyes and imagine Samaritans, Cypriots as well as more "Arabian" type populations like Negev Bedouins and/or Southern Levantines like modern Palestinians. Basically just some East Med and predominantly West Asian folks, my humble opinion anyway.

Yet you won't come out and say "I think they looked like this or that African population and not like East-Med West Asians". "I think they looked like how they were depicted" just comes off as a bit of a cop-out, to be honest. Especially when you keep choosing these rather vague depictions that sometimes don't even display the population's complexion or what have you.

Agamemnon
12-28-2016, 09:48 PM
As I've said before, I think they looked exactly as they were depicted. In fact, the images on these coins don't help your argument. They are completely different than images of AHs I've seen, some of which I've posted here. All 4 coins appear to clearly depict Romans. The 2nd figure that you claim is bound, is wearing a Roman toga in a serene setting. The 4th image does not on its face say anything regarding Judea.

Do you have problems reading what is written on the first coin? IVDEA CAPTA, which is Latin for "Judea conquered". The woman standing besides the Jewish rebel on the first coin is supposed to represent Jerusalem. As for the second coin, the source (http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sear5/s2505.html) of the picture I posted states the following:

Ref Titus Denarius, RIC 1, RIC [1962] 1, RSC 334a, BMC 1

Titus, as Augustus, AR Denarius. June-July 79 AD. IMP T CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG, laureate head right / TR POT VIII COS VII, Jewish captive kneeling right in front of trophy of arms. RSC 334a.

Not "a Roman in toga in a serene setting". Look, if you're going to pillage Jewish heritage and identity and claim it for yourself, you might as well try to be convincing.

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 09:58 PM
You should stop dancing around the subject, in my humble opinion. The sort of mostly 2D and often pretty stylistic depictions we have don't truly mean anything at the end of the day. It's not like we're dealing with detailed illustrations like these depictions of Early Modern Abyssinians or something:

http://oi63.tinypic.com/1zmmrtl.jpg

.
.

http://oi66.tinypic.com/s620lv.jpg

.
.

http://oi67.tinypic.com/f1ac5e.jpg

.
.

http://oi67.tinypic.com/mpze8.jpg

No one's going to bite off your head if you simply state that you believe they looked very "African-shifted" in phenotype. Do you believe they resembled Western Africans or Nubians or even Horn Africans such as Beta Israels, Habeshas and Somalis? Seriously, get blunt about this. It's really difficult to get what you're trying to say since you seem to be arguing against the idea that they would've looked like this which makes good sense with both the current ancient and modern DNA:









Yet you won't come out and say "I think they looked like this or that African population and not like East-Med West Asians". "I think they looked like how they were depicted" just comes off as a bit of a cop-out, to be honest. Especially when you keep choosing these rather vague depictions that sometimes don't even display the population's complexion or what have you.

Thanks but I'm posting exactly what I want to convey. I'm not on this site to take a fanatical position or to get sucked up in other poster's straw man arguments. The depictions are in stone so no they aren't going to be detailed but CLEARLY they have dreadlocks. So I'll state it again, AHs admixed with ancient African populations, including "black" Egyptians.

Awale
12-28-2016, 10:04 PM
The depictions are in stone so no they aren't going to be detailed but CLEARLY they have dreadlocks. So I'll state it again, AHs admixed with ancient African populations, including "black" Egyptians.

Sure, even modern Ashkenazis and Sephardis have like 1-4% "East African (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/02/the-east-african-cluster.html)" related admixture, last I checked. As do the Lebanese & Samaritans whilst Palestinians and the like have even more (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/01/african-ancestry-in-west-asian-north.html). There's no dancing around about the fact that there are African influences in the Levant (shows in both uniparental markers and autosomal DNA). But again... You're just dancing around here. Answer me one straight question:

What modern population do you think they looked the most similar to?

Tz85
12-28-2016, 10:07 PM
Sure, even modern Ashkenazis and Sephardis have like 1-4% "East African (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/02/the-east-african-cluster.html)" related admixture, last I checked. As do the Lebanese & Samaritans whilst Palestinians and the like have even more (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/01/african-ancestry-in-west-asian-north.html). There's no dancing around about the fact that there are African influences in the Levant (shows in both uniparental markers and autosomal DNA). But again... You're just dancing around here. Answer me one straight question:

What modern population do you think they looked the most similar to?

This absolutely true. My mom and I both carry about 1-2% East African admixture.

Tz85
12-28-2016, 10:11 PM
Yahanon the "black Egyptians" you see depicted are not Egyptian. These are Nubians. I don't understand on why people are bent on being something their not.

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 10:11 PM
Do you have problems reading what is written on the first coin? IVDEA CAPTA, which is Latin for "Judea conquered". The woman standing besides the Jewish rebel on the first coin is supposed to represent Jerusalem. As for the second coin, the source (http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sear5/s2505.html) of the picture I posted states the following:

Ref Titus Denarius, RIC 1, RIC [1962] 1, RSC 334a, BMC 1

Titus, as Augustus, AR Denarius. June-July 79 AD. IMP T CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG, laureate head right / TR POT VIII COS VII, Jewish captive kneeling right in front of trophy of arms. RSC 334a.

Not "a Roman in toga in a serene setting". Look, if you're going to pillage Jewish heritage and identity and claim it for yourself, you might as well try to be convincing.

Let's say for the sake of argument that I cared about convincing you of anything. What on earth could I post to convince you? Judea conquered is not my issue with your post. The woman probably represents Judea as you say. However, as I pointed out that garb doesn't line up with ancient Judean clothing descriptions/customs at all.

You stated that one of the images I posted was perhaps Ethiopian military not AHs, perhaps your second image is a mercenary not an AH as well.

Agamemnon
12-28-2016, 10:25 PM
Let's say for the sake of argument that I cared about convincing you of anything. What on earth could I post to convince you? Judea conquered is not my issue with your post. The woman probably represents Judea as you say. However, as I pointed out that garb doesn't line up with ancient Judean clothing descriptions/customs at all.

You stated that one of the images I posted was perhaps Ethiopian military not AHs, perhaps your second image is a mercenary not an AH as well.

You're just being unreasonable here, what I stated about the Lakish reliefs is a well-known fact, for instance here's what the British Museum has to say about these reliefs (which are to be found in the British Museum today):

"The story continues from the previous panel (no. 9) of the relief. This section decorated a corner of the room.
Having been exiled from their city, the people of Lachish move through the countryside to be resettled elsewhere in the Assyrian Empire. Below them high officials and foreigners are being tortured and executed. It is likely that they are being flayed alive.
The foreigners are possibly officers from Nubia. The Nubians were seen as sharing responsibility for the rebellion. Much of Egypt at this time was ruled by a line of kings from Nubia (the Twenty-fifth Dynasty) who were keen to interfere in the politics of the Levant, to contain the threat of Assyrian expansion.
As Sennacherib's forces laid siege to Lachish, an Egyptian army appeared, led by a man called Taharqa, according to the Old Testament. He may be the later pharaoh of Egypt with the same name (690-664 BC).
Sennacherib's account claims that the rebels had called on the support of the kings of Egypt (Delta princes) and the Kings of Kush (Nubia). The armies clashed on the plain of Eltekeh. While Sennacherib claimed victory, he was still not able to capture Jerusalem.
The story continues on the next panel (no. 11) of the relief."

Source: http://culturalinstitute.britishmuseum.org/asset-viewer/lachish-relief-stone-panel-from-the-south-west-palace-of-sennacherib-room-36-no-10/IgGFNwW6IBZBEg?hl=en


I could cite dozens of other sources proving my point, that's the difference between what I say and the claims you make: I can actually prove what I say (otherwise I wouldn't say it in the first place).

Moreover, your assumption that the garb "doesn't line up with ancient Judean clothing descriptions/customs at all" is, simply put, self-defeating. If you expect 1st century Judeans to dress like Bronze Age Canaanites, it's safe to assume you simply don't know what you're talking about.

Like I said, if you're going to claim that the Judeans and the Israelites of old were sub-Saharan Africans, you might as well try to be convincing instead of producing self-defeating statements.

Tz85
12-28-2016, 10:35 PM
Alot of people confuse depicted Nubians as "black Egyptians". This is ridiculous, and simply false.

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 11:07 PM
Sure, even modern Ashkenazis and Sephardis have like 1-4% "East African (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/02/the-east-african-cluster.html)" related admixture, last I checked. As do the Lebanese & Samaritans whilst Palestinians and the like have even more (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/01/african-ancestry-in-west-asian-north.html). There's no dancing around about the fact that there are African influences in the Levant (shows in both uniparental markers and autosomal DNA). But again... You're just dancing around here. Answer me one straight question:

What modern population do you think they looked the most similar to?
A "mixed multitude". Similar to modern Ethiopians in appearance and shades. You?

Yahanon
12-28-2016, 11:40 PM
You're just being unreasonable here, what I stated about the Lakish reliefs is a well-known fact, for instance here's what the British Museum has to say about these reliefs (which are to be found in the British Museum today):

"The story continues from the previous panel (no. 9) of the relief. This section decorated a corner of the room.
Having been exiled from their city, the people of Lachish move through the countryside to be resettled elsewhere in the Assyrian Empire. Below them high officials and foreigners are being tortured and executed. It is likely that they are being flayed alive.
The foreigners are possibly officers from Nubia. The Nubians were seen as sharing responsibility for the rebellion. Much of Egypt at this time was ruled by a line of kings from Nubia (the Twenty-fifth Dynasty) who were keen to interfere in the politics of the Levant, to contain the threat of Assyrian expansion.
As Sennacherib's forces laid siege to Lachish, an Egyptian army appeared, led by a man called Taharqa, according to the Old Testament. He may be the later pharaoh of Egypt with the same name (690-664 BC).
Sennacherib's account claims that the rebels had called on the support of the kings of Egypt (Delta princes) and the Kings of Kush (Nubia). The armies clashed on the plain of Eltekeh. While Sennacherib claimed victory, he was still not able to capture Jerusalem.
The story continues on the next panel (no. 11) of the relief."

Source: http://culturalinstitute.britishmuseum.org/asset-viewer/lachish-relief-stone-panel-from-the-south-west-palace-of-sennacherib-room-36-no-10/IgGFNwW6IBZBEg?hl=en


I could cite dozens of other sources proving my point, that's the difference between what I say and the claims you make: I can actually prove what I say (otherwise I wouldn't say it in the first place).

Moreover, your assumption that the garb "doesn't line up with ancient Judean clothing descriptions/customs at all" is, simply put, self-defeating. If you expect 1st century Judeans to dress like Bronze Age Canaanites, it's safe to assume you simply don't know what you're talking about.

Like I said, if you're going to claim that the Judeans and the Israelites of old were sub-Saharan Africans, you might as well try to be convincing instead of producing self-defeating statements.

Not that I mind but what's with the personal attacks? Have I done that to you? Let's posit this before I proceed: The history we are discussing and historians who compiled it were likely Eurocentric, a point we must keep in mind at all times.

Now, let's look at the text you provided, "Below them high officials and foreigners are being tortured and executed. It is likely that they are being flayed alive. The foreigners are possibly officers from Nubia"

Do we know why the determination was made that they were "foreigners". Secondly, do we know why the second sentence states the "foreigners" were "POSSIBLY" from Nubia? Possibly Nubian is not Nubian, right?

Lastly, in your reasonable opinion, are the figures in the relief I posted earlier in the thread AHs?

Tz85
12-29-2016, 12:32 AM
A "mixed multitude". Similar to modern Ethiopians in appearance and shades. You?

Judaism has never taught nor has believed the mixed multitude represented Ethiopians. I have never heard that honestly. The mixed multitude were Egyptians.

Awale
12-29-2016, 01:14 AM
A "mixed multitude". Similar to modern Ethiopians in appearance and shades. You?

Well, thanks for being clear for once. There's no proof in the genomic or even historical evidence for what you believe but thank you nonetheless. And I've already given you and everyone else my two cents:


Nah, what Agamemnon said is probably much more accurate. If you wanna imagine the Levant as a whole back then... I'd seriously just close my eyes and imagine Samaritans, Cypriots as well as more "Arabian" type populations like Negev Bedouins and/or Southern Levantines like modern Palestinians. Basically just some East Med and predominantly West Asian folks, my humble opinion anyway.

But you knows this... Again, stop being cheeky.



Not that I mind but what's with the personal attacks? Have I done that to you?

This is every time Agamemnon addressed you directly:


You're just being unreasonable here

Honestly, I agree... You are being unreasonable and constantly ignore evidence (i.e. genomic evidence) that contradicts your own beliefs which you really can't back up with anything other than depictions you choose to interpret a certain way or maybe some scriptural texts you interpret a certain way.


I could cite dozens of other sources proving my point, that's the difference between what I say and the claims you make: I can actually prove what I say (otherwise I wouldn't say it in the first place).

Getting a bit snippy with you here, I'll admit. But it's more of a challenge than anything. Can you prove anything you're positing like your weird claim that the Israelites would be like modern Ethiopians? Doesn't seem so...


Moreover, your assumption that the garb "doesn't line up with ancient Judean clothing descriptions/customs at all" is, simply put, self-defeating. If you expect 1st century Judeans to dress like Bronze Age Canaanites, it's safe to assume you simply don't know what you're talking about.

I don't really see a personal attack. He's ultimately right... If you expect 1st Century Judeans to dress like Bronze Age Canaanites, it is indeed safe to assume you're not familiar with what you're talking about.



Like I said, if you're going to claim that the Judeans and the Israelites of old were sub-Saharan Africans, you might as well try to be convincing instead of producing self-defeating statements.

Once again just a challenge...


The history we are discussing and historians who compiled it were likely Eurocentric, a point we must keep in mind at all times.

Yes, we must remember this because arguing that the "HIs" most likely looked like Samaritans, Cypriots and certain Levantine Arabs is pretty "Eurocentric", right? You know, because those're all full-on Northern-European populations or something afterall... Regular Scandinavians, native Britons and Germans in fact. Spare us the usual Afrocentrist nonsense.

---

At any rate, this whole thread has run its course in my opinion and is turning into typical "raceboard" nonsense every second it goes on. I'll be shutting it down from here.