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View Full Version : Z195 and SRY2627 in Flanders - New paper



R.Rocca
05-21-2013, 02:43 AM
...can be found here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?709-New-DNA-Papers&p=6501&viewfull=1#post6501

Gray Fox
05-21-2013, 02:16 PM
Thanks for sharing this. Were both snp's tested or just Z195? Also, could you share the percentage map like you did with L21 guys? Thanks again.

R.Rocca
05-21-2013, 03:21 PM
Thanks for sharing this. Were both snp's tested or just Z195? Also, could you share the percentage map like you did with L21 guys? Thanks again.

No problem Sam. Unfortunately, this is the only graphic they provided that shows Z195 and SRY2627:

http://r1b.org/imgs/U106_and_P312_Breakdown.jpg

They only broke out L21 because of the W-E cline they found in present times.

razyn
05-21-2013, 05:05 PM
If we accept P312* as a proxy for DF27 (and I don't think either you or I really do, where the rubber hits the road -- but it has been alleged in a few map captions, etc.), then of the total P312 in this charted population, DF27 outnumbers U152 by 45% to 34%, and outnumbers L21 by 45% to 23%. The percentages in the reddish pie chart add up to 102%, so there's a little rounding upward of someone's decimal places -- but I think the broader trend should be clear.

What it means may still be unclear. But I'm thinking about direction(s) of expansion of these clades, as you are; and I just want that factoid noticed, along with other factoids about west to east, what happened in the late 16th century, and so on. Nobody has mentioned importation of Flemish weavers, dairy pastoralism, the arrival of the Bell Beakers, the great age of Portuguese potters, or the Spanjools... quite yet. But if those things arise, again, these charts might need to arise in the same deliberations.

Pretty cool that academe is finally beginning to notice us. Really, it's only been two years and a few weeks since there was a test available for Z196, and under one year for DF27. But living it, one forum post at a time, has seemed to take pretty long.

R.Rocca
05-21-2013, 07:33 PM
If we accept P312* as a proxy for DF27 (and I don't think either you or I really do, where the rubber hits the road -- but it has been alleged in a few map captions, etc.), then of the total P312 in this charted population, DF27 outnumbers U152 by 45% to 34%, and outnumbers L21 by 45% to 23%. The percentages in the reddish pie chart add up to 102%, so there's a little rounding upward of someone's decimal places -- but I think the broader trend should be clear.

What it means may still be unclear. But I'm thinking about direction(s) of expansion of these clades, as you are; and I just want that factoid noticed, along with other factoids about west to east, what happened in the late 16th century, and so on. Nobody has mentioned importation of Flemish weavers, dairy pastoralism, the arrival of the Bell Beakers, the great age of Portuguese potters, or the Spanjools... quite yet. But if those things arise, again, these charts might need to arise in the same deliberations.

Pretty cool that academe is finally beginning to notice us. Really, it's only been two years and a few weeks since there was a test available for Z196, and under one year for DF27. But living it, one forum post at a time, has seemed to take pretty long.

In the past I used P312* as a proxy for DF27, but only for Iberia. I did so because of the 1000 Genomes data where 95.2% of Iberian P312* samples turned out to be DF27+. That percentage is actually higher now (96.2%) with Phase III data coming in. This has been reinforced by FTDNA testing where Iberian P312* folks are now 97.7% DF27+.

P312* in the isles, or Italy or the Low Countries is a different matter altogether as it has not turned out to be as high in DF27. Still, I'd imagine that the number is still on the somewhat high end (60-80%??) even when taking DF19, L238 and the remaining P312** into account.

Now about the paper...I found it interesting that the two areas of highest Z195+SRY2627 frequency is in Noord-Brabant and Limburg. Both areas have the Meuse River running the length of their borders.

Dubhthach
05-21-2013, 08:09 PM
It would be nice if they did a matching set of data for Wallonia (French speaking Belgium) at the moment this only gives us an insight into Dutch speaking half. Still it's a start, good to see Z195 included in an academic paper. Hopefully other studies will start to use as a result.

-Paul
(DF41+)

R.Rocca
05-21-2013, 08:22 PM
It would be nice if they did a matching set of data for Wallonia (French speaking Belgium) at the moment this only gives us an insight into Dutch speaking half. Still it's a start, good to see Z195 included in an academic paper. Hopefully other studies will start to use as a result.

-Paul
(DF41+)

They did compare Flemish Surnames with French Surnames within the area and the only groups which were statistically significant were Z381 (Flemish = 9.6%, French = 1.5%) and L21 (Flemish = 6.5%, French = 13.8%)

Webb
05-21-2013, 08:41 PM
In the past I used P312* as a proxy for DF27, but only for Iberia. I did so because of the 1000 Genomes data where 95.2% of Iberian P312* samples turned out to be DF27+. That percentage is actually higher now (96.2%) with Phase III data coming in. This has been reinforced by FTDNA testing where Iberian P312* folks are now 97.7% DF27+.

P312* in the isles, or Italy or the Low Countries is a different matter altogether as it has not turned out to be as high in DF27. Still, I'd imagine that the number is still on the somewhat high end (60-80%??) even when taking DF19, L238 and the remaining P312** into account.

Now about the paper...I found it interesting that the two areas of highest Z195+SRY2627 frequency is in Noord-Brabant and Limburg. Both areas have the Meuse River running the length of their borders.

I have a distant family match with Vanderhoofs of Beesd, Netherlands. We both were curious about Flanders as there is a number of instances of Flemish migration into the British Isles. There were a large number of Flemish with the Normans and then again around 1300 with the displaced Flemish weavers. According to MJost's calculations I share a common ancestor with the Vanderhoofs at around 1060 AD, give or take 500 years, which really narrows it down. Humour.

Dubhthach
05-21-2013, 08:47 PM
They did compare Flemish Surnames with French Surnames within the area and the only groups which were statistically significant were Z381 (Flemish = 9.6%, French = 1.5%) and L21 (Flemish = 6.5%, French = 13.8%)

What was there there definition of a "French surname" eg. as in originating in France, or one that is "French language" origin? The reason I ask of course is that half of the territory of Belgium is "french" (reality Walloon and Picard) speaking. One would imagine the main flow of "french surnames" would come from the rest of Belgium as oppose to France proper.

Still good to see some difference on stats. What was the statistical difference between "flemish surnames" and "french surnames" when it came to P312*?

-Paul
(DF41+)

razyn
05-23-2013, 06:07 PM
I'm sort of captivated by the concept of adding P312*, SRY2627 and Z195, in this project, and speculating that it's primarily composed of DF27 -- with a sprinkling of DF19, and probably almost no L238, or P312** of yet-unknown subclades. That's based on what has turned up so far in this project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/ -- that is, one Belgian (I don't know whether he's Flemish) and 3-4 Netherlanders (or Nieder-something else), among the 63 tested or suggested DF19 guys. I don't believe any of the tested L238 or P312** people so far have reported a MDKA from the Low Countries, at all. Or if they have, it's hard to see. I haven't explored Mike's somewhat more comprehensive Excel tables, nor Molgen -- just wanted a general impression. And it's my impression that most of these guys will be DF27, of one sort or another.

And incidentally, the verbiage of this Flanders paper indicates that they tested for M153; but the tables indicate that they didn't find any. Would that be likely, if these results significantly reflect events of the late 16th century? I have no data about the presence or absence of Basques in the Spanish military/naval population of that time.

Anyway -- whether or not it's valid to lump together the non-L21, non-U152 parts of the red (P312) pie chart and call it "DF27" (the quotation marks here are ironic, standing for "so-called"), I have done so; and I must say, I see little or no correlation with the Meuse River, per se. The heaviest concentration of "DF27" is 17.5% in Antwerp; but it's not markedly more concentrated there than in most of the rest of Flanders, on or off the Meuse -- ranging from 13.9% to 17%, with only one striking contrast. That is West Vlaanderen, region 4 in the study, in which it's only 8%.

And btw these are percentages of the whole sampled population, not of the P312 component of it (140 of the 948 samples, or 14.8% overall). I used the table of those for whom genealogical data were available to indicate the region of their "ORPA," oldest reported paternal ancestor. But a quick check of the separate table showing present locations of those sampled indicates very little difference in these trends.

As indicated in my previous post on this thread, and evident on the red (P312) chart from the paper, U152 and L21 account for substantially smaller percentages than "DF27."

R.Rocca
05-23-2013, 11:16 PM
I'm sort of captivated by the concept of adding P312*, SRY2627 and Z195, in this project, and speculating that it's primarily composed of DF27 -- with a sprinkling of DF19, and probably almost no L238, or P312** of yet-unknown subclades.

I think you are right. I do have one caution however...at first glance, it looks like DF27 in the Low Countries FTDNA samples are high in Z196+, which obviously the P312* samples in the Larmuseau study would be negative for. I could only find the following 3 samples that were DF27(xZ196):

214921 Johann Friedrich Heinrich Dauben1797-1839
222095 Heer Ghijsbrecht van Tuyl (bef. 1345 - 1383)
75127 Bartholomeus Combee, 1690-1725, Doeveren, The Netherlands

If we do find a heavy pocket of DF27+Z196- in the Low Countries, it will certainly put the focus on the Protruding Foot Beakers. I am intrigued by this.



Anyway -- whether or not it's valid to lump together the non-L21, non-U152 parts of the red (P312) pie chart and call it "DF27" (the quotation marks here are ironic, standing for "so-called"), I have done so; and I must say, I see little or no correlation with the Meuse River, per se. The heaviest concentration of "DF27" is 17.5% in Antwerp; but it's not markedly more concentrated there than in most of the rest of Flanders, on or off the Meuse -- ranging from 13.9% to 17%, with only one striking contrast. That is West Vlaanderen, region 4 in the study, in which it's only 8%.


I only noticed this for the Z195 samples.



As indicated in my previous post on this thread, and evident on the red (P312) chart from the paper, U152 and L21 account for substantially smaller percentages than "DF27."


I'm not sure that I would say "substantially", but the proposed "DF27" total is higher than U152 by roughly 27%.

P312* = 10.0% (originally 10.9% minus DF19 estimation of 0.8% based on you DF19 FTDNA samples)
Z195+ = 3.1%
SRY2627 = 1.0%
Total Proposed "DF27" = 14.1%

U152* = 3.5%
L2+ = 5.6%
L20+ = 1.2%
Total U152 = 10.3%

Total L21 = 7.1%

With that - you really need to start a DF27 Only Project. It is too important not to have its own.

alan
05-23-2013, 11:44 PM
I think you are right. I do have one caution however...at first glance, it looks like DF27 in the Low Countries FTDNA samples are high in Z196+, which obviously the P312* samples in the Larmuseau study would be negative for. I could only find the following 3 samples that were DF27(xZ196):

214921 Johann Friedrich Heinrich Dauben1797-1839
222095 Heer Ghijsbrecht van Tuyl (bef. 1345 - 1383)
75127 Bartholomeus Combee, 1690-1725, Doeveren, The Netherlands

If we do find a heavy pocket of DF27+Z196- in the Low Countries, it will certainly put the focus on the Protruding Foot Beakers. I am intrigued by this.



I only noticed this for the Z195 samples.



I'm not sure that I would say "substantially", but the proposed "DF27" total is higher than U152 by roughly 27%.

P312* = 10.0% (originally 10.9% minus DF19 estimation of 0.8% based on you DF19 FTDNA samples)
Z195+ = 3.1%
SRY2627 = 1.0%
Total Proposed "DF27" = 14.1%

U152* = 3.5%
L2+ = 5.6%
L20+ = 1.2%
Total U152 = 10.3%

Total L21 = 7.1%

With that - you really need to start a DF27 Only Project. It is too important not to have its own.

It would be very interesting if your observations on a lack of Z196 negative DF27 in the area implies there is a lot of P312** but basically the same feeling would also apply if there was just a high DF27* count i.e. that the likely origin of P312 and its main subclades like should be sought somewhere relatively central within western Europe where clades could move in all directions without some improbably epic leap from one extreme.

corner
05-24-2013, 10:41 AM
I agree, it's a fascinating glimpse of what appears to be a high concentration of DF27. Richard Rocca estimates, above, that out of 14.1% total of proposed "DF27", 10% might be P312* and 4.1% Z196. So that larger P312* group could be made up of DF27+/Z196-, but with an unknown number of P312**. These hints are perhaps promising for those who find they are stuck at DF27* (DF27+ and Z196- etc).

TigerMW
05-25-2013, 04:04 AM
I think you are right. I do have one caution however...at first glance, it looks like DF27 in the Low Countries FTDNA samples are high in Z196+
....
This is all anecdotal but from the data I collect from projects, we should view Z196 as the DF13 of L21 or the L2 of U152. They will have heavy majorities of their parent clades.

R.Rocca
05-25-2013, 02:58 PM
This is all anecdotal but from the data I collect from projects, we should view Z196 as the DF13 of L21 or the L2 of U152. They will have heavy majorities of their parent clades.

And that was why I added the caution...Z195* plus SRY2626 in the study make up a lower percentage of P312* than you would expect if P312* was all DF27*.

razyn
05-25-2013, 03:28 PM
The one Belgian DF19 guy I mentioned above (from the FTDNA P312 project) turned out to be Wim Verelst, who pretty much rides herd on DF19 these days. He was in fact tested in this new Flanders project, so he's one of the P312* guys [ancestrally] from Antwerpen. We have a little colloquy going, at the moment.

corner
05-25-2013, 03:31 PM
Yes, important to know exactly how much of the 10% P312* is actually DF27*. If it is most of that figure, that would be interesting.

There must be some more larger, parallel 'brother' subclades of Z196/Z195 downstream of DF27 yet to be discovered, though. There's a fair bit of DF27* without their downstream SNP yet.

ximocarr
05-26-2013, 08:44 PM
Hi all, I'm DF27* z196- it's suposed I descend from a flemish weaver from the area of Antwerp, my FTDNA ID is E7941. I haven't got any matches at 67 so far. Only a finish man 9/67 GD.
cheers


The one Belgian DF19 guy I mentioned above (from the FTDNA P312 project) turned out to be Wim Verelst, who pretty much rides herd on DF19 these days. He was in fact tested in this new Flanders project, so he's one of the P312* guys [ancestrally] from Antwerpen. We have a little colloquy going, at the moment.

GoldenHind
05-27-2013, 05:40 PM
I'm sort of captivated by the concept of adding P312*, SRY2627 and Z195, in this project, and speculating that it's primarily composed of DF27 -- with a sprinkling of DF19, and probably almost no L238, or P312** of yet-unknown subclades. That's based on what has turned up so far in this project: I don't believe any of the tested L238 or P312** people so far have reported a MDKA from the Low Countries, at all. Or if they have, it's hard to see.

There is someone on the P312** (XU152,L21,DF27,DF19,L238) list of Flemish ancestry, though he is indeed difficult to spot. This is the sole P312** who at first glance appears to be of Iberian origin. As Rich reported above, virtually all of the P312* (XU152,L21) in Iberia are DF27, so this one stands out. He reports however that his ancestor was a Flemish ("Flamenco") silk trader who settled in Bilboa, Spain c.1640. He states this information comes from a lawsuit that his ancestor brought concerning his silk business.

Although P312** remains a mystery wrapped in an enigma, I suspect some part of it is present in the Low Countries.

razyn
06-23-2013, 08:34 AM
With that - you really need to start a DF27 Only Project. It is too important not to have its own.

I more or less ignored this suggestion last month, because Henry Zenker has been doing such a good job of sorting the big R1b-P312 project in ways that address our DF27 questions. He's Z220+, and it can be helpful for the administrator to have a personal stake of some kind. But the news this weekend about his health may be another call for action by... somebody, representing the DF27 camp. I realize that's not the actual thread topic, but most of the parties concerned have been following this one.

Ryan
04-16-2014, 01:48 PM
Hello, I've read this thread and would like to comment on it.
As I am Dutch, I can tell you that the name "Flanders" isn't quite correct.
It should be Brabant. After the old Duchy of Brabant.

I was part of a YDNA project from the University of Leuven (Louvain)

http://http://www.brabant-dna.org/phpBB3/

It was only from 1830 on, or even much later, that the name Flanders became in use for the Dutch speaking part of Belgium, by the Belgians.
Flanders is historically the part of Belgium, west of the river Schelde.
So Antwerp is in Brabant, on the other side of the river is Flanders.

Also the link between "Flanders" and "Flamenco" is questionable.
The Dutch word is "Vlaanderen" and "Vlaams".
For "Flanders" and "Flemish".

lg16
04-23-2017, 04:56 AM
Any SRY2627 + R-Z203 + ?