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View Full Version : L21 in Flanders - New Paper



R.Rocca
05-21-2013, 02:44 AM
...can be found here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?709-New-DNA-Papers&p=6501&viewfull=1#post6501

rms2
05-21-2013, 07:59 AM
Thanks, Rich. I see that is one of those pay-to-read papers. Can someone provide a copy or can we get the salient details, like percentage of L21 in Flanders, etc.?

R.Rocca
05-21-2013, 12:05 PM
Sure, I sent it to Jean for inclusion in her library. I must say, this is as good a study as you will see.

Here is the west-east cline for L21:

http://r1b.org/imgs/West-East_Cline.jpg

So it looks like L21 frequency has increased in the West in the last 400 years or so, going from 4-6% regionally to 5-14%.

Dubhthach
05-21-2013, 01:06 PM
Could part of this be driven by internal migration from Wallonia. After all the region in general has been united in one form or other since Burgundian period during the middle ages. (Followed by Hapsburgs).

It would be interesting to have similiar studies for surronding areas to see what direction the increase in L21 could be coming from.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Mikewww
05-21-2013, 01:14 PM
Sure, I sent it to Jean for inclusion in her library. I must say, this is as good a study as you will see.

Here is the west-east cline for L21:

http://r1b.org/imgs/West-East_Cline.jpg

So it looks like L21 frequency has increased in the West in the last 400 years or so, going from 4-6% regionally to 5-14%.

Here is a map of the regions of Belgium to make it easier to visualize.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Belgium_RegProv.png

I think it might be useful to know the older (in Belgium) L21 (4-6%) that was more evenly scattered east to west - no cline. This would more likely be a remnant. We know all about the historic movements of the Germanic peoples out of the Jutland and its neck into the Low Countries. L21 might have had higher percentages prior to this. Any guesses on the L21 frequency pre-Caesar?

Is there a haplogroup frequency map in the study that might let us look us speculate on the frequencies with U106 pulled out? probably some I1 and R1a pulled out too?

Speaking of U106, if U106 is much heavier than I1 and R1a this might be further evidence that U106 is not from Scandinavia.

R.Rocca
05-21-2013, 03:11 PM
Here is a map of the regions of Belgium to make it easier to visualize.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Belgium_RegProv.png

I think it might be useful to know the older (in Belgium) L21 (4-6%) that was more evenly scattered east to west - no cline. This would more likely be a remnant. We know all about the historic movements of the Germanic peoples out of the Jutland and its neck into the Low Countries. L21 might have had higher percentages prior to this. Any guesses on the L21 frequency pre-Caesar?

Is there a haplogroup frequency map in the study that might let us look us speculate on the frequencies with U106 pulled out? probably some I1 and R1a pulled out too?

They did not provide frequency maps, but they did provide a subclade breakdown of U106, P312 and G from the present dataset ...

http://r1b.org/imgs/U106_and_P312_Breakdown.jpg

U152 makes up 32% of the P312 lineages with L21 showing a respectable 23%. DF27 is impossible to guess at given that only Z195 was tested (10%) and DF19 and other SNPs might be at play in the overall P312* number.

Interestingly this paper shows a W-E cline for L21 and their prior paper showed a S-N cline for U152. This clearly shows an advancement of these two groups from France over the past 3-4 centuries.


Speaking of U106, if U106 is much heavier than I1 and R1a this might be further evidence that U106 is not from Scandinavia.

In the genealogical dataset, I1 and I1c are a combined 10-16%. It is strongest in the west and lowest in the north and east. R1a is low in most areas (3-4%) and only shows up higher in the east (8.0%). It is very low in the north (1.5%) and on the coast (0.9%). Directionally, R1a would seem to have come from the east and not the north or the coast with I1 clearly coastal. U106 seems to be much stronger in the north and the west and blows the doors off of I1+R1a in terms of frequency.

R.Rocca
05-21-2013, 08:30 PM
I wrote on another thread:

They did compare Flemish Surnames with French Surnames within the area and the only groups which were statistically significant were Z381 (Flemish = 9.6%, French = 1.5%) and L21 (Flemish = 6.5%, French = 13.8%)

Mikewww
05-22-2013, 02:45 PM
I wrote on another thread:

They did compare Flemish Surnames with French Surnames within the area and the only groups which were statistically significant were Z381 (Flemish = 9.6%, French = 1.5%) and L21 (Flemish = 6.5%, French = 13.8%)

Paul D has made a good point on another thread. I'm not saying that Richard R has tried to do this but some could use the % French names that are L21 and try to project that back to France. This would probably be an error. For one thing, France is much larger and there are probably large variances between region and maybe even at the department level.

Importantly, as Paul noted, much of Belgium is considered Wallonia and there are a lot of French speakers there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallonia
The study is of Flanders specifically, not all of Belgium and so the French surnamed people in Flanders might be more likely to have come from Wallonia rather than from France proper.

Bernard
05-22-2013, 02:58 PM
Larmuseau writes this in the paper:
Finally, another genetic differentiation within Flanders was found earlier between an autochthonous Flemish surnames group (AFS) and a French/Roman Surnames group (FRS), the latter being the remnant of a past gene flow event from Northern France to Flanders at the end of the 16th century

Dubhthach
05-22-2013, 05:28 PM
The thing is that these areas have been part of common territory with French speaking areas (Wallonia) for the guts of 600 years. They were all basically put together by the Burgundian's (Philip the Good) and then inherited by the Hapsburgs. Thence been Spanish territories during the Dutch Revoult (80 year war) and then eventually what is now Belgium been under Austrian control.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Karte_Haus_Burgund_4_EN.png

Spanish Netherlands during the 16th century:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Spanish_Netherlands.svg/500px-Spanish_Netherlands.svg.png

Of course Flanders was considered a "fief" of the Kingdom of France, however only part of the medieval "County of Flanders" is now within modern France (Nord, Pas de Calais). Given the interconnection with Wallonia for so long it would seem most logical that "french language" surnames may have a higher probability for origin in Wallonia.

-Paul
(DF41+)

alan
05-22-2013, 05:53 PM
I think its an interesting study. It is of course the place where in theory you would least expect L21 as Flanders in Belgium and France is historically the Dutch speaking area and heaviest Germanised area. I doubt the additional L21 in French speakers came from immediately to the wesr in France because that is French Flanders and essentially the same Dutch speakers. The study is consistant with L21 being more common in the descendants of the pre-Germanic population though which does seem to confirm that L21 was a player in northern Gaul even in the north-east. I have always suspected L21 was strong across the north Gaulish coast but the coastal part of Belgium and NE France is the area with the most Germanic intrustion of the old NE (Belgic) Gaul so L21 may have been the biggest victim in Belgic Gaul as it lay in the path of the most strong Germanic intrusions. Inland Belgica was less impacted but I suspect L21 was lesser among the Gauls inland. However in areas of major intrusion and language change the original situation will likely only be reflected my remnants. The spectacular drop of Z381 (U106) with the French names compared to the Flemish is on a much greater scale. It kind of suggests the possibility that French didnt receive much intrusion while the Flemish did absorb a significant amount of non-Germanic lineages. That makes sense. I havent read the report yet so I cant comment further

ffoucart
01-15-2016, 10:51 AM
Just found this thread.
Historically, most French names from West and Ost Vlaanderen are originally from Walloon Flanders (around Lille and Douai) and Artois (Arras, Saint Pol, Bethune), where germanisation by the Frank's was of lower degree.
This is in correlation to the "Guerre des Gueux" (most of Flanders became Protestant, and many people went away after the Arras Union and her allegiance to Spain and became refugees in the territories of the Utrecht Union), and to the French Conquest (we find many refugees from the French controlled areas who settled in the still Spanish part of the Low Countries).
That's why I think L21 must be higher around Artois, and could be lower in Wallonia ( W/E gradient).