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View Full Version : U152, L2 and L20 in Flanders - New Paper



R.Rocca
05-21-2013, 02:46 AM
...can be found here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?709-New-DNA-Papers&p=6501&viewfull=1#post6501

TigerMW
05-22-2013, 01:20 AM
...can be found here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?709-New-DNA-Papers&p=6501&viewfull=1#post6501
What is your theory on how / what brought U152 north to the lower Rhine and the Low Countries?
I wonder if L21 wasn't there early (as Rhenish Beakers) with misc. others (old Neolithic folks) and then U152 moved northward into the area with some kind of Iron Age Celt migration and then finally U106 came in from The Netherlands/lower Jutland (as Anglos, Saxons, Jutes) while I1 flittered in along the coasts with raiders (as Vikings).

razyn
05-22-2013, 03:06 AM
Speaking of the Rhine, if you have the recent Cunliffe book Britain Begins, there are a couple of interesting maps on pp. 197 and 199 that might be a good backdrop for this discussion. That's in the chapter "Mobilizing Materials: A New Connectivity, 3000-1500 BC." I think the Rhine-Meuse watershed (often discussed as such, since these rivers share a delta) is contained within the zone of overlap of the single-grave Corded Ware cultural horizon with the Bell Beaker "spread." That overlap zone forms an important facet of Cunliffe's narrative. Of course he's a little more convinced of some of the west-to-east stuff than I am -- and the arrows on the p. 199 map indicate that -- but anyway I share his maritime/riparian interests, and think this is one of the key areas of continental Europe in which it's pretty essential to consider those topics.

Corded Ware reaches to (or from) the Volga and Vistula, etc. and some of its deeper background might touch upon those CMP matters on which Alan was recently musing. Or, it might not; I confess to fairly complete ignorance of the archaeological detail, over there. There just aren't that many maps we get to look at that show these more northern and eastern parts, in the days of Bell Beaker spread that seem interesting from the R1b-P312 perspective.

rms2
05-23-2013, 05:48 PM
What is your theory on how / what brought U152 north to the lower Rhine and the Low Countries?
I wonder if L21 wasn't there early (as Rhenish Beakers) with misc. others (old Neolithic folks) and then U152 moved northward into the area with some kind of Iron Age Celt migration and then finally U106 came in from The Netherlands/lower Jutland (as Anglos, Saxons, Jutes) while I1 flittered in along the coasts with raiders (as Vikings).

Remember what Caesar said about the Belgae in his Gallic Wars, that they were relatively recent arrivals from Germania (that is, from east of the Rhine). Caesar also said some of the Belgae had settled in Britain within living memory. My own opinion is that the Belgae were predominantly U152 and that much of the U152 one sees in SE England in Busby et al descends from these same Belgae Caesar was speaking of.

Titus Valerius
05-30-2013, 11:15 AM
Hi all!
But where does L20+? Which may be the most plausible hypothesis?

jcmax68
08-05-2019, 09:05 PM
Hi all!
But where does L20+? Which may be the most plausible hypothesis?

I have the same question. :)