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View Full Version : Breaking down E-M34: E-L791, E-M84, Proto-Semites, and Bonapartes



wandering_amorite
01-02-2017, 01:17 AM
In a few recent threads, it's come up that E-M34, an ancient lineage (TMRCA of 15.1 kya) with a curious distribution, hasn't gotten the scrutiny it deserves. In fact, to this day, 23andMe reports my E-M34 (xM84) as E-M34*, despite the fact that my I, J, and R friends can expect coverage at the resolution of historical-era markers.

E-M34 doesn't come close to predominating anywhere, but is most prominent in the Southern Levant, Cyprus, Ethiopia, and the Jewish Diaspora, with significant appearances in Kurdistan, the South Caucasus, Arabia, Iberia, Italy, Egypt, and the Maghreb.

M34's direct ancestor, E-Z830 (which unites it with a major East African/Cushitic lineage), was found this past year in Natufian samples from northern Israel, but IIRC, E-M34's earliest attestation in the record is in a PPNB individual from 'Ain Ghazal in Jordan. A bit earlier, one of its major subclades, E-M84, was identified in Iron Age individuals from Armenia. A Levantine origin seems probable.

A few years ago, it was pretty common to see people identifying E-M34 (usually in combination with J-P58) as a marker of the proto-Semites, but it's become obvious from the distribution that the truth is hairier. E-M34 has left a trail all areas of the Mediterranean, East Africa, and highland West Asia where it's unlikely that Semitic languages were ever spoken.

Naturally, this year's aDNA findings seemed to confirm some link between early Semitic-speaking populations and E-M34, but the chronology and direction of flow is totally unclear. Does Natufian E-Z830 (which, to remind folks, is *not* M34, and is probably not directly ancestral to it, in this particular case) suggest a Levantine in situ origin for Afroasiatic? That would be wild. But it's clear that Semitic isn't nearly that old. What can the current state of aDNA tell us about the moment of Semitic's appearance in the Levant, its source, and the material culture associated with it?

Another angle that hasn't been explored at all, and on which we probably have as much data as we need: subclades. Remember, E-M34 is Epipaleolithic, which puts the divergence time of its major subclades (E-L791 and E-M84) around the glottochronologically-estimated dawn of Proto-Semitic in the Chalcolithic or Early Bronze. It's hard to imagine there isn't an informative pattern. I haven't seen anyone write about it, though.

Thanks to some dedicated people, the phylogeny of E-L791 (my own lineage) appears to be pretty well-documented, consisting mainly of an "Atlantic Branch", Y2947, and a larger "Levantine Branch", Y4971. Examples of the former are attested among English, French, Spanish, Russian, and Greek individuals; the latter mainly comprises Gulf Arabs, Ashkenazi Jews, Greek Jews, and Armenians, with a few Western Europeans scattered throughout, including clan Bonaparte.

Meanwhile, I know that E-M84 is attested among Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi Jews, Palestinians, Kurds, Cypriots, Italians, and other Europeans. I really know nothing about its internal phylogeny, so I'm curious to hear more from our resident E-M84 expert.

Where, and among whom, did the 2 branches part ways? Where do the Ethiopians fit in? And what's the deal with E-L791's Gulf-Ashkenazi connection? Are there Palestinians, Egyptians, Syrians, and Mesopotamians in L791 to bridge the gap, thus far untested?

Hope to spark a good conversation. I'm biased, but I'm deeply curious about Afroasiatic and Semitic origins, and suspect that E-M34's early descendants are an important part of the story.

wandering_amorite
01-02-2017, 01:28 AM
FYI, among a fairly large sample of my own people:

E-L791>Y6923 - 5.6%
E-M84>Y14891 - 4%
E-M84>Z21429 - 0.7%
---------------------------
E-Z830 - 3.2%

Agamemnon
01-02-2017, 03:44 AM
Since AA is my field of expertise, I'll make a few things clear: What we know about PAA at this point suggests that the earliest AA speakers were foragers who engaged in grain collection, while the homeland issue isn't "solved" yet an African origin remains more likely than a West Asian one for a number of linguistic reasons. The Levant is the most convincing location in West Asia for the PAA homeland, because it is close to Africa among other things, if valid the best cultural correlate would not be Natufian but Mushabian. The E-Z830 Natufians might well have spoken an early AA dialect or para-AA dialect, but that's just a possibility at this point. If I'm not mistaken, E-M34 has yet to be found in ancient results from the Levant, the fact that none of the Natufian samples were E-M34 is important IMO. I would expect E-M34 to make its earliest appearance in Harifian samples, these people are likely to have spoken pre-Proto-Semitic.

Both E-M34 and J1-P58 are too old to be labeled "Semitic" or "Proto-Semitic", what we ought to look for are branches with TMRCA estimates going back to the first half of the 4th millenium BCE which experienced a sudden "explosion" and diversification of lineages around the end of the 4th millenium and the first half of the 3rd millenium BCE, in turn the branches produced by this sudden "explosion" ought to be found chiefly among Semitic speakers. There's only one lineage we know of which ticks all the boxes, namely J1-YSC234 (TMRCA ~5800 yBP, 3 major branches with TMRCAs going back to the late 4th and early 3rd millennia BCE leading to a plethora of branches, almost uniquely found among Semitic speakers, correlates with the Semitic language tree to some extent, spread likely followed a north-to-south pattern) however I think we will ultimately find several lineages under E-M34 which correlate even more closely with the spread of Semitic-speaking groups, E-L791 is one of the best contenders so far judging from what I've seen.


Unfortunately, E-M35 suffers from a certain lack of attention I find difficult to explain (I can think of several reasons, but they fail to provide a satisfactory explanation), so we are not seeing this yet, just compare E-L791's (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L791/) and J1-YSC234's (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2313/) trees on YFull and keep in mind both markers have roughly the same TMRCA estimates and that they are bound to be just as diverse... And yet, there's an enormous difference between both trees (also keep in mind that YSC234's tree is incomplete, it's actually far more diverse than this). E-L791 reminds me of J1-L862, formerly known as L147, back when the amount of detail on J1-P58 phylogeny resembled that of E-L791 today, I am not talking in terms of TMRCA estimates but in terms of distribution and frequency.

As far as the results from the Gulf are of concern, this is also a recurring issue with J1-YSC234, this is probably due to sampling bias.

wandering_amorite
01-02-2017, 07:28 AM
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1415/ < not confirmed E-M34 by Lazaridis et al, but claimed as such by Genetiker.

Lank
01-02-2017, 10:01 AM
We will need samples from West Asia and Africa to learn more about the early history of M34, we are still lacking samples from Africa. As you say, M34 dates to 15 kya, when migrations may have occurred between the Levant and the Nile Valley. Interestingly, M123(xM34) is found today in the north and south of Egypt. When we finally get samples from Mesolithic Egypt, and the Levant (adding Mushabian and Kebaran to the Natufian samples we have), we could hopefully unravel the history of this lineage.


Where do the Ethiopians fit in?
From 23andMe at least, the Amharas I have seen with M34 belong to M84. Interestingly, M34 is rare in the north of the Horn (Eritrea/Tigray), and the single confirmed Eritrean with M34 belongs to M290, which is very rare and has only been reported in 1 Palestinian as far as I know. M290 was also found in an adoptee with Eritrean relatives.

The M34 lineages found in southern Ethiopian Omotic speakers, the frequency peak, are still unresolved.

Agamemnon
01-02-2017, 02:06 PM
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1415/ < not confirmed E-M34 by Lazaridis et al, but claimed as such by Genetiker.

What I find interesting is that this sample (I1415) is roughly contemporary, if not slightly more recent than the time frame normally ascribed to the Harifian culture. There's a good chance we'll find E-M34 in Harifian remains judging from the above.

kingjohn
01-02-2017, 05:14 PM
FYI, among a fairly large sample of my own people:

E-L791>Y6923 - 5.6%
E-M84>Y14981 - 4%
E-M84>Z21429 - 0.7%
---------------------------
E-Z830 - 3.2%

i think i belong to E-M84>Y14981
because efgen from e3b haplozone
use to classified me as m84-b that was only based on 12 markers ......... ???
but this an aschenazi clade
and my direct paternal line is syrian jewish from damascus so what is the conection ???????? :\
my paternal line was seperated from aschenazi m-34 at least 1900 ybp since the beginning of the diaspora......

regards
adam

p.s
i think only yfull could explain this but it is bloody expensive.... :)

wandering_amorite
01-03-2017, 12:20 AM
If I'm not mistaken, Palestinians and non-Ashkenazi Jews have been found slightly upstream of this clade - so your Shami Jewish ancestor's position in the bigger picture isn't surprising.

If anything, Ashkenazi M84 is the easier lineage to place in context — Y6923, while probably Levantine in origin, has very few close parallels among non-Ashkenazi Jews or Palestinians (w/the putative exception of Romaniotes, which leads the Y6923 project admin on FTDNA to believe that our early medieval father (one of the most virile Ashkenazi forbears ;) ) came to Central Europe from Greece).

wandering_amorite
01-03-2017, 02:20 AM
i think i belong to E-M84>Y14981
because efgen from e3b haplozone
use to classified me as m84-b that was only based on 12 markers ......... ???
but this an aschenazi clade
and my direct paternal line is syrian jewish from damascus so what is the conection ???????? :\
my paternal line was seperated from aschenazi m-34 at least 1900 ybp since the beginning of the diaspora......

regards
adam

p.s
i think only yfull could explain this but it is bloody expensive.... :)

By the way, my bad: I meant Y14891. When you start getting into 5-digit strings, error is inevitable.

MfA
01-03-2017, 02:16 PM
i think i belong to E-M84>Y14981
because efgen from e3b haplozone
use to classified me as m84-b that was only based on 12 markers ......... ???
but this an aschenazi clade
and my direct paternal line is syrian jewish from damascus so what is the conection ???????? :\
my paternal line was seperated from aschenazi m-34 at least 1900 ybp since the beginning of the diaspora......

regards
adam

p.s
i think only yfull could explain this but it is bloody expensive.... :)

There're Palestinian Christians who also belong to M84-B cluster and Y14899+, Y14891-, F1539-. What's your kit number?

kingjohn
01-03-2017, 03:26 PM
i am not in the e3b project if you can add me https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/background
it would be great
i am still confirmed e-m34 :) snp
13438
i am giving you acces to my kit number you can do it in ftdna logi in :
maybe you can say to which branch of m84-b i belong i am aware of the palestinians who belong to y14899 but this is old clade:)
kit nunber :
password:
my ystr :
13437

best regards
adam

MfA
01-03-2017, 03:36 PM
i am not in the e3b project if you can add me https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/background
it would be great
i am still confirmed e-m34 :) snp

i am giving you acces to my kit number you can do it in ftdna logi in :
maybe you can say to which branch of m84-b i belong i am aware of the palestinians who belong to y14899 but this is old clade:)


my ystr :


best regards
adam

Bro wtf, I'd suggest you to remove your password et al.

Anyway, I did add you to the project. You indeed look like belong to M84-B. The Palestinian did Big Y, so if you order Big Y as well, you two möst likely form a deeper clade between Y14899+ and Y14891, F1539.

kingjohn
01-03-2017, 06:22 PM
how much y full cost?
are all E-m84-b members positive for
y14899 ?
best regards
adam

MfA
01-03-2017, 06:45 PM
how much y full cost?
are all E-m84-b members positive for
y14899 ?
best regards
adam

YFull doesn't do DNA sequencing, they only analyse the .BAM files from FTDNA, FullGenomes et al. So first you need to have tested by one of those companies. BigY is currently 575$, but there're still some 75$ off coupons, for a few days. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CgXRKz2TySvRqSInveSIYoslO7yexAc9d-BzpNhaY1c/edit#gid=1800996737

Y14899 is pretty old (7kya) so if you're M84-B it's certain you are positive for Y14899. M84-B cluster is much younger than that (2kya +-400y) credit to Farroukh (https://abload.de/img/f4a41f5f4f98pksce.jpg) https://abload.de/img/f4a41f5f4f98pksce.jpg.

kingjohn
01-03-2017, 07:05 PM
dear mfa,
thanks for adding me for the m35 project
in y dna classic chart which page i am 5 or 6 ?
it is still very expensive :\
is it logical to assume that i belong to y14891 even though his age is 800AD in europe {probably a bottlneck branch in mediveal germany}?
my direct paternal ancestor was syrian jewish not aschenazi :\
best regards
adam

MfA
01-03-2017, 07:11 PM
dear mfa,
thanks for adding me for the m35 project
in y dna classic chart which page i am 5 or 6 ?
it is still very expensive :\
is it logical to assume that i belong to y14891 even though his age is 800AD in europe {probably a bottlneck branch in mediveal germany}?
my direct paternal ancestor was syrian jewish not aschenazi :\
best regards
adam

You're currently at page 9 "Ungrouped". I'm not sure but I'd guess you won't be in Ashkenazi cluster (Y14891) but parent to them. You can still have Y67 STR which might be helpful.

You can still take risk and gamble, test single SNP Y14891 for 35$. Which might be waste of money, given the Palestinian is negative.

kingjohn
01-03-2017, 07:40 PM
thanks for your tips :)
i will think about it

p.s

y14899 could be canaanite branch

wandering_amorite
01-03-2017, 10:27 PM
thanks for your tips :)
i will think about it

p.s

y14899 could be canaanite branch

Probably! My one beef with that is when people are thinking in biblical terms, coloring E1b1b with the label "Hamitic", and think of J as the "Hebrew/Abrahamic" counterpart to "Canaanite" E(-M34) in the Levant. But yeah, hard to imagine Canaanites didn't carry it. After all, what were classical Judeans but rebranded Canaanites?

Agamemnon
01-03-2017, 10:53 PM
I think we ought to avoid using biblical terminology and genealogy, Canaanite however is not a uniquely biblical term.

kingjohn
01-04-2017, 01:40 PM
dear mfa ,
can you please add
those details to my kit n21466 in this site https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/background :
direct paternal ancestor : syrian jew/ moses danguri born in 1935 damascus syria .... :)
bets regards
adam

kingjohn
01-04-2017, 05:07 PM
thanks mfa
much appricated
best regards
Adam

kingjohn
01-05-2017, 04:50 PM
dear mfa ,
do you happen to have the y-str
of the e-m34 haplotypes of this paper :
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8/fulltext.html
Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements
can you anlayse it for us
i would appricate to know how much of it belong to: E- L-791, Y14899, YPF6751
based on there [B]str ?
with kind regards
adam

wandering_amorite
01-05-2017, 07:52 PM
dear mfa ,
do you happen to have the y-str
of the e-m34 haplotypes of this paper :
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8/fulltext.html
Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements
can you anlayse it for us
i would appricate to know how much of it belong to: E- L-791, Y14899, YPF6751
based on there [B]str ?
with kind regards
adam

Good question. My follow-up to that is: I wonder if there are any populations where E-L791 can be confirmed to outnumber E-M84, besides Ashkenazi Jews (where the ratio is 1.2—nearly even).

Power77
01-06-2017, 05:35 PM
As E-M34 was found in Bronze Age Armenian samples, is it possible that Semitic (or Afro-Asiatic) languages were spoken in Armenia and/or the Caucasus at some point:\?

Agamemnon
01-06-2017, 05:57 PM
As E-M34 was found in Bronze Age Armenian samples, is it possible that Semitic (or Afro-Asiatic) languages were spoken in Armenia and/or the Caucasus at some point:\?

That's actually a very important point, so far we have two E-M84 samples (RISE416 & RISE423) from Nerk'in Getashen in Armenia which date back to the Middle Bronze Age, given the age of these samples it's possible these individuals' paternal ancestors hailed from neighbouring Mesopotamia and arrived in the region with Assyrian traders (who in turn were descended from the Akkadians), this might hold true for at least one of the two samples. Alternatively, we might be underestimating the antiquity of E-M84's presence in SE Anatolia and the Transcaucasian region, however this doesn't really sound likely to me at this point and the former hypothesis just makes more sense.

Power77
01-06-2017, 06:15 PM
That's actually a very important point, so far we have two E-M84 samples (RISE416 & RISE423) from Nerk'in Getashen in Armenia which date back to the Middle Bronze Age, given the age of these samples it's possible these individuals' paternal ancestors hailed from neighbouring Mesopotamia and arrived in the region with Assyrian traders (who in turn were descended from the Akkadians), this might hold true for at least one of the two samples. Alternatively, we might be underestimating the antiquity of E-M84's presence in SE Anatolia and the Transcaucasian region, however this doesn't really sound likely to me at this point and the former hypothesis just makes more sense.

Sometimes, I wonder if "northerly" E-M35.1 lineages are older (in their specific "northern" area) than we think. For example, Dolgans (a Siberian "Mongoloid" Turkic-speaking people) have very high E-M35.1 frequencies that cannot be explained by recent admixture with other populations (i.e., Russians, Jews, Arabs, et al.).

wandering_amorite
01-06-2017, 06:40 PM
That's actually a very important point, so far we have two E-M84 samples (RISE416 & RISE423) from Nerk'in Getashen in Armenia which date back to the Middle Bronze Age, given the age of these samples it's possible these individuals' paternal ancestors hailed from neighbouring Mesopotamia and arrived in the region with Assyrian traders (who in turn were descended from the Akkadians), this might hold true for at least one of the two samples. Alternatively, we might be underestimating the antiquity of E-M84's presence in SE Anatolia and the Transcaucasian region, however this doesn't really sound likely to me at this point and the former hypothesis just makes more sense.

FWIW, E-M34 seems more common among Kurds (and possibly Armenians and Azeris) than it is among Assyrians and northern Levantines. The historical/cultural fit is actually pretty messy.

Agamemnon
01-06-2017, 06:43 PM
FWIW, E-M34 seems more common among Kurds (and possibly Armenians and Azeris) than it is among Assyrians and northern Levantines. The historical/cultural fit is actually pretty messy.

Well like I said, we might be underestimating the antiquity of E-M84's presence in SE Anatolia/Northern Mesopotamia and the Transcaucasus, however it'll take a lot more ancient data to convince me of that. Remember, the current frequencies among these populations (including Assyrians) might be due to several founder effects, this is something to keep in mind.

I've seen my fair share of people who placed the cradle of markers such as R1b, J2, E-M34 and J1 to this area (Transcaucasus/SE Anatolia/NW Iran), so I can only be skeptical given how these theories crumbled with ancient DNA results from the region.

Power77
01-06-2017, 07:05 PM
Well like I said, we might be underestimating the antiquity of E-M84's presence in SE Anatolia/Northern Mesopotamia and the Transcaucasus, however it'll take a lot more ancient data to convince me of that. Remember, the current frequencies among these populations (including Assyrians) might be due to several founder effects, this is something to keep in mind.

I've seen my fair share of people who placed the cradle of markers such as R1b, J2, E-M34 and J1 to this area (Transcaucasus/SE Anatolia/NW Iran), so I can only be skeptical given how these theories crumbled with ancient DNA results from the region.

What about the Dolgan E-M35.1 lineages:\? From where could they have come:confused:?

Megalophias
01-06-2017, 07:25 PM
What about the Dolgan E-M35.1 lineages:\? From where could they have come:confused:?
A Russian man with E-V13 would be my guess.

PS

Dolgan Y DNA from Federova et al (n=65)
30% N1c1-Tat 22% N1c2b-P43 12% C2b1a-M48 1% C2*-M217 1% O-M175
12% R1a-M17(xM458) 2% R1a-M458 1% R1b-M269 4% I2a-P37 6% E-M35 1% J-12f2
1% L-M20 1% F(xI, J, K) 1% R(xR1)

All 4 E-M35 samples share same 6 STR haplotype which is very common in V13 (though also found in other branches)

Power77
01-06-2017, 09:05 PM
A Russian man with E-V13 would be my guess.

PS

Dolgan Y DNA from Federova et al (n=65)
30% N1c1-Tat 22% N1c2b-P43 12% C2b1a-M48 1% C2*-M217 1% O-M175
12% R1a-M17(xM458) 2% R1a-M458 1% R1b-M269 4% I2a-P37 6% E-M35 1% J-12f2
1% L-M20 1% F(xI, J, K) 1% R(xR1)

All 4 E-M35 samples share same 6 STR haplotype which is very common in V13 (though also found in other branches)

So no ancient Boreal Afro-Asiatic wanderers then:tsk:?

kingjohn
01-06-2017, 10:17 PM
russia was always to cold ;)
best regards
adam

wandering_amorite
01-06-2017, 10:26 PM
So no ancient Boreal Afro-Asiatic wanderers then:tsk:?

If E-V13 is associated with Afro-Asiatic, I'll be damned!

Megalophias
01-06-2017, 10:31 PM
So no ancient Boreal Afro-Asiatic wanderers then:tsk:?
:biggrin1:

That would be a lot more interesting, but I sure wouldn't bet that way.

Agamemnon
01-07-2017, 12:14 AM
I think we need to stay clear of simple correlations between genes and languages, there is no 1:1 correlation to be found, if what we've learned about R1b, Yamnaya and IE languages is any indication it would be wise not to fall into the trap of E-M35 = Afroasiatic or J1 = Semitic or even R1b/R1a = IE. Things are bound to be a tad bit more complicated than that. Yes, I seriously doubt the earliest AA-speaking communities lacked E-M35 lineages (quite the opposite if anything), yet again E-V13 might've been carried by people who originally spoke a now extinct branch of AA, alternatively they might never have spoken AA at all (doubtful considering the fact that it's ultimately a branch of M78). While genetic and linguistic phylogenies are indeed similar, they cannot be equated and certainly do not work the same way. So even though the different branches of E-M35 are the prime contenders for the dispersal of AA speakers from the PAA homeland, they cannot satisfactorily explain all of these dispersals, it's possible E-M35 was a minority among the earliest Semitic and Chadic-speaking communities (this could explain the contemporary predominance of other lineages such as J1-YSC234 and R1b-V88 among those groups). In turn, there's no clear AA affinity for E-V13 so far. The process which led to this situation might not have much to do with genetics, save admixture and interaction which arose because of contact-induced change and/or the adoption (or loss) of AA.

wandering_amorite
01-12-2017, 12:25 AM
FWIW - I'm in the process of finding out about the subclade breakdown of Palestinian Christians in Holy Land DNA's dataset - which is unfortunately limited to the crude SNP set tested by 23andMe. Anyway, it should be able to tell us what share of the M34+ Palestinian Christian sample is M84+, and which is M84- (and likely, but not definitely, L791).

wandering_amorite
01-16-2017, 07:47 AM
Re: the above—

"This is difficult to do because some of these are anonymous matches. Here is what I found offhand (not an exhaustive list) from my old relative finder on 23andme:

...

E1b1b1c1a: Jubran, Kaleh, Freij, Bartholo, Nasir, Jazzar

E1b1b1c: Garza, Habis, Sabat"

So seemingly, E-M123* and E-M84, but no documented E-L791?

Lank
01-16-2017, 10:57 AM
From 23andMe at least, the Amharas I have seen with M34 belong to M84.

The M34 lineages found in southern Ethiopian Omotic speakers, the frequency peak, are still unresolved.
A minor update: An E-M34 adoptee from Sidamo province in southern Ethiopia tested (98% East African from 23andMe), he is also M84.

Still need some Omotic samples to see how much M84 they have.

wandering_amorite
02-11-2017, 12:00 AM
Eupedia surprised me by elaborating on E-M34 subclades — though I don't trust Maciamo as an authority, this is more than I've seen most willing to say. He neglects to acknowledge the documented presence of E-L791 downstream markers all over Arabia, though.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M123_subclades

"E-M123 originated some 19,000 years ago, during the last Ice Age Its place of origin is uncertain, but it was probably in the Red Sea region, somewhere between the southern Levant and Ethiopia. Its main subclade E-M34 most probably emerged in the Levant about 15,000 years ago. Soon afterwards, M34 split into two branches, M84 and Z841, which were probably found in the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic period. It is not clear at present whether they expanded beyond the Near East during the Neolithic period, but they might have been part of the Neolithic expansion to North Africa and Iberia alongside haplogroups T1a and/or R1b-V88. L791 and Z21466 have a mostly European distribution today and their ages point toward a Neolithic diffusion. The PF6759 subclade seems to have reached Sardinia during the Neolithic period. The descendants of L791, Y2947 and Y4971, only appeared around 3500 BCE, during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic period. The K257 and Y4970 branch emerged around 3000 BCE and is found in Iran, Armenia, Turkey, Russia, Greece, Italy and France, among others. It might be linked to the expansion of the Kura-Araxes culture from the southern Caucasus to Anatolia and Iran. It would then have spread to Greece and Italy alongside haplogroup J2a1 and T1a-P77. Y6923 also emerged around 3500 BCE, but became almost extinct. All modern carriers of this lineage descend from a common ancestor who lived only 1,200 years ago, and all are Ashkenazi Jews.

E-M34 lineages experienced a much more dramatic expansion during the Chalcolithic (Copper Age) period. CTS1096 split into three subclades around 7,500 to 7,000 years ago, a period that corresponds to the advent of the Copper Age around modern Kurdistan. These lineages continued to expand around the Middle East, Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age. Nowadays, the FGC18412 (aka Y5412) clade is the main variety of M123 found in Europe. Also downstream of CTS1096, the Y14891 and Z21018 clades are typically found among people of Jewish ancestry, while PF6391 and Z21421 are found in the Levant (Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan) and the Arabian peninsula. F1382 appears to have expanded during the Iron Age from the Levant to the Arabian peninsula, where it is almost exclusively found today."

Agamemnon
02-11-2017, 12:28 AM
Here he goes again:

"The descendants of L791, Y2947 and Y4971, only appeared around 3500 BCE, during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic period. The K257 and Y4970 branch emerged around 3000 BCE and is found in Iran, Armenia, Turkey, Russia, Greece, Italy and France, among others. It might be linked to the expansion of the Kura-Araxes culture from the southern Caucasus to Anatolia and Iran."

This is getting old real fast, nothing warrants an association between L791 with Kura-Araxes at this stage, just like nothing warrants an association between J1-L858 and Kura-Araxes (he also supports this BTW). Kura-Araxes is starting to look like a convenient excuse for lumping together lineages he has a hard time figuring out. Also, while his theory about E-M81 is far-fetched, a more straightforward explanation is that it correlates neatly with the break-up of Proto-Berber and that this process was probably sped up by the establishment of the Roman limes in North Africa, I'm surprised he didn't notice the correlation between M81's TMRCA and the break-up estimates for Common Berber (same thing for J1-YSC234 and the break-up estimates for Common Semitic, he apparently failed to notice that as well).

Targum
03-20-2017, 02:37 AM
dear mfa ,
can you please add
those details to my kit n21466 in this site https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/background :
direct paternal ancestor : syrian jew/ moses danguri born in 1935 damascus syria .... :)
bets regards
adam

Please investigate your family history further; I suggest your Danguri ancestors were newcomers/migrants to Damascus. Dangur, Dangoor, Dangoori are all original Yehudey Bavel-Baghdad descendants of Babylonian Jews,and it is a well known Bavli Jewish name. It is well known in the 19th and 20th century secondary Baghdad diaspora i.e Shanghai, Hong Kong, Calcutta etc. not Syrian at all.

kingjohn
03-20-2017, 11:02 AM
i can't discover farther
yes i know my surname is danguri and dangur exist in bagdhad
if i have babylonian jews roots that would explain my indo iranian in dna land and central asia in ftdna my origins
best regards
adam

p.s
do you know why my surname has i in the end:\

Targum
03-20-2017, 01:37 PM
i can't discover farther
yes i know my surname is danguri and dangur exist in bagdhad
if i have babylonian jews roots that would explain my indo iranian in dna land and central asia in ftdna my origins
best regards
adam

p.s
do you know why my surname has i in the end:\

In Hebrew (and Arabic) the suffix of "yod" or "i" just means "Of" as in Yerushalmi-of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)

kingjohn
03-20-2017, 03:12 PM
so is it means "of" dangur..... ?:\
if my paternal line originally was from bagdhad
than i am extremely intrested what geno2 will tell me about which m34 branch i belong
and how it fits aschenazi and european and middl eastern e-m34's
regards
adam

kingjohn
03-20-2017, 03:35 PM
from what i read iraqi jews came to syria in 900 AD
so they have been in the community for long time
regards
adam

These events also marked the beginning of an important emigration of Iraqi Jews towards other countries. Damascus, like other cities in Syria and Egypt, became the home of many Iraqi Jews who established their own synagogues in the city. One of the pages in the records of the Damascus bet din for the year 933 contains four betrothal documents of Iraqi Jews in three consecutive weeks.

source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/damascus-jewish-history-tour

wandering_amorite
03-21-2017, 01:41 AM
from what i read iraqi jews came to syria in 900 AD
so they have been in the community for long time
regards
adam

These events also marked the beginning of an important emigration of Iraqi Jews towards other countries. Damascus, like other cities in Syria and Egypt, became the home of many Iraqi Jews who established their own synagogues in the city. One of the pages in the records of the Damascus bet din for the year 933 contains four betrothal documents of Iraqi Jews in three consecutive weeks.

source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/damascus-jewish-history-tour

OT, but I'd be interested to see the different calculator results of Syrian Jews with different purported family histories (Spanish, Musta'arabi, Iraqi)—it seems like the Syrian Jewish reference falls somewhere along the cline from Cypriot/coastal north Levantine to north Mesopotamian, but that might just be an artifact of averaging.

kingjohn
03-21-2017, 11:20 AM
here is a full syrian jew roots in aleppo m020638 you can see he have some matches with latin americans
evedince for his sefhardic /iberian ancestery
regards
adam

p.s
there was some sefhardic immigration to aleppo less so to damascus from where my paternal roots

Targum
03-22-2017, 03:30 PM
OT, but I'd be interested to see the different calculator results of Syrian Jews with different purported family histories (Spanish, Musta'arabi, Iraqi)—it seems like the Syrian Jewish reference falls somewhere along the cline from Cypriot/coastal north Levantine to north Mesopotamian, but that might just be an artifact of averaging.

SyJ's are not Mizrahhim, despite there being close ties with the Iraqi community, including ,marriage. Rav "Ovadiah Yosef's wife Margalit was from an SyJ family, for example.The SyJ are in the Western Jewish cluster, and their ethnogenesesis is an original population of Land of israel musta'aribim reflecting a population from Second Temple/Hhashmona'im times like Italqim and Romaniote, plus a significant population of Sefaradi exiles (i.e. Laniado surname), plus a little introgression of Mizrahhi brides and migrants from the Bavli, Persian and Kurdistan Jews.

wandering_amorite
04-04-2017, 01:36 AM
"Mizrahi" is a purely modern construct—if you mean that Syrian Jews are generally not Mesopotamian in origin, then I totally agree. They're on the south/eastern edge of the Western cluster, pulled toward both the Levant and Mesopotamia relative to "pure" Euro-Sephardim.

valanius
05-05-2017, 07:30 PM
We will need samples from West Asia and Africa to learn more about the early history of M34, we are still lacking samples from Africa. As you say, M34 dates to 15 kya, when migrations may have occurred between the Levant and the Nile Valley. Interestingly, M123(xM34) is found today in the north and south of Egypt. When we finally get samples from Mesolithic Egypt, and the Levant (adding Mushabian and Kebaran to the Natufian samples we have), we could hopefully unravel the history of this lineage.



What is this information about M123(xM34) in Egypt? Is there a paper? I would be interested to see more info about it, as I'm M123(xM34) myself.

Archaeologist77
06-25-2017, 03:06 PM
Interesting discussion. One of my research interests for my m.a. in archaeology was ancient DNA of the Levant. Unfortunately, no skeletons were readily available for the biblical period. Based on modern population genetics, I noticed what appeared to be a pattern that I formed into a hypothesis:

1) E-M35 originating in the ancestral homeland of afro-asiatic in East Africa, and thus, the homeland of proto-semitic. E-M35 is the major founding lineage of all Semitic people in this hypothesis.

2) E-M34 was the founding lineage of East semitic people as a first wave Neolithic-Chalcolithic period "out-of-Africa" distribution to southern Arabia and Mesopotamia either through North Africa and the Levant, and/or as was often postulated before the 2016 Natufian ancient DNA findings, across the Mandeb Strait, the 40 km stretch of water between the tip of East Africa and Yemen. Thus, E-M34 would have been one of the founding lineages of the East Semitic Akkadian people, and language.

This first wave might be related to the Natufian settlement in the Levant, or more likely followed shortly after the success of their migration. E-M34 people, in this hypothesis, are descended from the same ancestral people group as the Natufians who lived in the East African proto-Semitic tribal homeland before migrating to the Levant.

Even a quick check with little analysis at Wikipedia appears to support this hypothesis:

Region and Population

Natufians (Northern Israel, 10,000 ybp), Jordanians (Dead sea), Ethiopian Amhara, Ethiopian Jews, Sahara/Mauritania, Algerian Kabyles, Ethiopian Wolayta, Yemen, Ethiopian Oromo, Erzurum Turkish, Omanite, Bedouins.

What is needed to verify or falsify the hypothesis of the E-M34 as Akkadian is its distribution among Iraqi and Kurdish populations, and especially ancient DNA from skeletons found in scientific excavations of Akkadian sites in Mesopotamia.

3) E-M78 was a major founding lineage of West Semitic people and northern Egyptian lower classes, slaves, workers, shepherds. E-M78 is an indicator of a second wave "out-of-Africa" of proto-Semitic people during the Early Bronze Age. This most definitely was not just one haplogroup, but included many. YDNA E-M78 is a good migration indicator for this second wave. A significant majority of Jewish families with traditions of descent from King David are found in E-M78, a lineage that underwent a severe ancient extinction event in the Conquest, Exilic, and Roman periods; history indicates that there would likely have been very few survivors of this lineage, but a discussion that belongs to a different thread though.

Tz85
06-25-2017, 05:43 PM
Interesting discussion. One of my research interests for my m.a. in archaeology was ancient DNA of the Levant. Unfortunately, no skeletons were readily available for the biblical period. Based on modern population genetics, I noticed what appeared to be a pattern that I formed into a hypothesis:

1) E-M35 originating in the ancestral homeland of afro-asiatic in East Africa, and thus, the homeland of proto-semitic. E-M35 is the major founding lineage of all Semitic people in this hypothesis.

2) E-M34 was the founding lineage of East semitic people as a first wave Neolithic-Chalcolithic period "out-of-Africa" distribution to southern Arabia and Mesopotamia either through North Africa and the Levant, and/or as was often postulated before the 2016 Natufian ancient DNA findings, across the Mandeb Strait, the 40 km stretch of water between the tip of East Africa and Yemen. Thus, E-M34 would have been one of the founding lineages of the East Semitic Akkadian people, and language.

This first wave might be related to the Natufian settlement in the Levant, or more likely followed shortly after the success of their migration. E-M34 people, in this hypothesis, are descended from the same ancestral people group as the Natufians who lived in the East African proto-Semitic tribal homeland before migrating to the Levant.

Even a quick check with little analysis at Wikipedia appears to support this hypothesis:

Region and Population

Natufians (Northern Israel, 10,000 ybp), Jordanians (Dead sea), Ethiopian Amhara, Ethiopian Jews, Sahara/Mauritania, Algerian Kabyles, Ethiopian Wolayta, Yemen, Ethiopian Oromo, Erzurum Turkish, Omanite, Bedouins.

What is needed to verify or falsify the hypothesis of the E-M34 as Akkadian is its distribution among Iraqi and Kurdish populations, and especially ancient DNA from skeletons found in scientific excavations of Akkadian sites in Mesopotamia.

3) E-M78 was a major founding lineage of West Semitic people and northern Egyptian lower classes, slaves, workers, shepherds. E-M78 is an indicator of a second wave "out-of-Africa" of proto-Semitic people during the Early Bronze Age. This most definitely was not just one haplogroup, but included many. YDNA E-M78 is a good migration indicator for this second wave. A significant majority of Jewish families with traditions of descent from King David are found in E-M78, a lineage that underwent a severe ancient extinction event in the Conquest, Exilic, and Roman periods; history indicates that there would likely have been very few survivors of this lineage, but a discussion that belongs to a different thread though.

The Samaritan priests are E-M78. I notice you are E-M78*, did you test for E-V12?.

Camulogène Rix
06-25-2017, 06:23 PM
The paper on Napoléon, our dear emperor. Actually, his ancestor from Tuscany was nicknamed "The Moor".

http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/jmbr/article/view/10609/9658

wandering_amorite
06-26-2017, 06:30 AM
Interesting discussion. One of my research interests for my m.a. in archaeology was ancient DNA of the Levant. Unfortunately, no skeletons were readily available for the biblical period. Based on modern population genetics, I noticed what appeared to be a pattern that I formed into a hypothesis:

1) E-M35 originating in the ancestral homeland of afro-asiatic in East Africa, and thus, the homeland of proto-semitic. E-M35 is the major founding lineage of all Semitic people in this hypothesis.

2) E-M34 was the founding lineage of East semitic people as a first wave Neolithic-Chalcolithic period "out-of-Africa" distribution to southern Arabia and Mesopotamia either through North Africa and the Levant, and/or as was often postulated before the 2016 Natufian ancient DNA findings, across the Mandeb Strait, the 40 km stretch of water between the tip of East Africa and Yemen. Thus, E-M34 would have been one of the founding lineages of the East Semitic Akkadian people, and language.

This first wave might be related to the Natufian settlement in the Levant, or more likely followed shortly after the success of their migration. E-M34 people, in this hypothesis, are descended from the same ancestral people group as the Natufians who lived in the East African proto-Semitic tribal homeland before migrating to the Levant.

Even a quick check with little analysis at Wikipedia appears to support this hypothesis:

Region and Population

Natufians (Northern Israel, 10,000 ybp), Jordanians (Dead sea), Ethiopian Amhara, Ethiopian Jews, Sahara/Mauritania, Algerian Kabyles, Ethiopian Wolayta, Yemen, Ethiopian Oromo, Erzurum Turkish, Omanite, Bedouins.

What is needed to verify or falsify the hypothesis of the E-M34 as Akkadian is its distribution among Iraqi and Kurdish populations, and especially ancient DNA from skeletons found in scientific excavations of Akkadian sites in Mesopotamia.

3) E-M78 was a major founding lineage of West Semitic people and northern Egyptian lower classes, slaves, workers, shepherds. E-M78 is an indicator of a second wave "out-of-Africa" of proto-Semitic people during the Early Bronze Age. This most definitely was not just one haplogroup, but included many. YDNA E-M78 is a good migration indicator for this second wave. A significant majority of Jewish families with traditions of descent from King David are found in E-M78, a lineage that underwent a severe ancient extinction event in the Conquest, Exilic, and Roman periods; history indicates that there would likely have been very few survivors of this lineage, but a discussion that belongs to a different thread though.

I don't see a strong case here. E-M34 doesn't seem to show a particular association with East Semitic speakers, and E-M78 is too broad a category to speak of in association with any proto-historic migrations. There's also no evidence of a dual migration of Semitic speakers from Egypt into the Near East.

I don't believe anyone with claims of descent from King David. It's better than talking about Abraham, but still entirely unprovable. The combined frequency of all E-M78 lineages among Jews is much smaller than that of E-M34 (or, taking a step back, E-Z830, inclusive of E-M34).

Farroukh
07-10-2017, 09:10 AM
E-M34 was the founding lineage of East semitic people
E-M34 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-M34/) formed 20000 years ago, cavemen hunted mammoths. Proto-Semitic (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royprsb/276/1668/2703/F2.large.jpg) formed 13000 years later

FaerieQueene
01-06-2018, 08:17 PM
Bro wtf, I'd suggest you to remove your password et al.

Anyway, I did add you to the project. You indeed look like belong to M84-B. The Palestinian did Big Y, so if you order Big Y as well, you two möst likely form a deeper clade between Y14899+ and Y14891, F1539.What do I do with my Big Y results? How can I interpret them? Can you help me?

FaerieQueene
01-06-2018, 08:21 PM
Y14899 is pretty old (7kya) so if you're M84-B it's certain you are positive for Y14899. M84-B cluster is much younger than that (2kya +-400y) credit to Farroukh (https://abload.de/img/f4a41f5f4f98pksce.jpg) https://abload.de/img/f4a41f5f4f98pksce.jpg.Is Y14899 Jewish? Is there a difference between M84-B and Y14899?

Agamemnon
01-06-2018, 09:04 PM
Is Y14899 Jewish? Is there a difference between M84-B and Y14899?

Y14899's TMRCA is 7,200 years old according to YFull, so it's too old to be described as Jewish. That being said, it comprises several Jewish subclades, including a prominent one (Y16781). I'd assume Y14899 is the SNP tied to M84-B, so there probably is no major difference between the two.

mcarpio
03-24-2018, 05:47 PM
We are E-M34 North East African origin. Why do they connect us with Semitic Jews
(descendants of Hebrews), if the haplogroup are from the Canaanites? It is clear that the Jewish groups are J1 and J2, recently R1b, why put some E1BA and E1B1B? what is the base ?.

Tz85
03-24-2018, 05:57 PM
We are E-M34 North East African origin. Why do they connect us with Semitic Jews
(descendants of Hebrews), if the haplogroup are from the Canaanites? It is clear that the Jewish groups are J1 and J2, recently R1b, why put some E1BA and E1B1B? what is the base ?.

That's really not correct. The oldest documented community, the Samaritans belong to J and E-M78. The oldest communities belong to both groups.

Taurus
06-13-2018, 01:32 PM
The paper on Napoléon, our dear emperor. Actually, his ancestor from Tuscany was nicknamed "The Moor".

http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/jmbr/article/view/10609/9658

His ancestor nicknamed "The Moor" was from Sarzana, and Sarzana is in Liguria, not in Tuscany. In fact his nickname was «Il Moro di Sarzana», the Moor from Sarzana.

Napoleon referred to himself as a Tuscan when he spoke confidentially to doctor Francesco Antomarchi, because his father had obtained from a Tuscan family with the same surname and registered in the nobility of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany a document stating that they were relatives. In this way Napoleon became of noble origin and this document allowed Napoleon to enroll in the military school in France. But we do not know if this Tuscan family was really connected to that of Napoleon, the family has become extinct. And there are those who maintain that the Tuscan family with surname Buonaparte was originally from Sarzana in Liguria.

In any case, Napoleon's haplogroup is extremely rare both in south-eastern Liguria (where Sarzana is located) and in Tuscany. There in the areas between Liguria and Tuscany, R1b reaches 80%, and the majority is U152. So it is quite clear that Napoleon's haplogroup, E1b1b1c1 * (E-M34), is due to an external migration very different from the bulk of the population.

kingjohn
06-13-2018, 01:48 PM
contrary to what they say most of the e-m34 in europe are
from roman period from 70AD
and some even older pheonician period 800 bc
but yes it is younger than r1b without any doubt no question about it

p.s
it is not connected to moors or sarcesans that would be e-m81

Taurus
06-13-2018, 02:00 PM
contrary to what they say most of the e-m34 in europe are
from roman period from 70AD

Based on what?



p.s
it is not connected to moors or sarcesans that would be e-m81

The English translation of the Italian word "Moro" can lead to some misunderstanding.

The word "moro" was generically referred not only to the Moors or Saracens, but to all those who came from certain areas. The problem is that other times in Italian "moro" is simply a nickname that is based on the color of the hair and not on the ethnic origin of a person.

kingjohn
06-13-2018, 02:02 PM
Based on what?




The English translation of the Italian word "Moro" can lead to some misunderstanding.

The word "moro" was generically referred not only to the Moors or Saracens, but to all those who came from certain areas. The problem is that other times in Italian "moro" is simply a nickname that is based on the color of the hair and not on the ethnic origin of a person.

just wait for jewish roman catacombs i am sure e-m34 will be found there
what is your theory on this haplogroup in europe how did it arrived in your opinion ?
regards
Adam

Taurus
06-13-2018, 02:19 PM
just wait for jewish roman catacombs i am sure e-m34 will be found there
what is your theory on this haplogroup in europe how did it arrived in your opinion ?
regards
Adam

Quite difficult to answer. I'm reading it badly or the TMRCA is quite old? 15200 ybp?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-m34/


These two from La Spezia province (where Sarzana is located) in Liguria are most likely connected to Napoleon.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y58897/

kingjohn
06-13-2018, 02:27 PM
Quite difficult to answer. I'm reading it badly or the TMRCA is quite old? 15200 ybp?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-m34/


These two from La Spezia province (where Sarzana is located) in Liguria are most likely connected to Napoleon.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y58897/

there is one e-m84 member with roots in liguria from the e3b project
but this is e-m84 not napoleon branch ......
but agree with you that those 2 from la speziacould be related to napoleon

Andrewid
06-19-2018, 12:05 AM
Hi guys.

23andme have assigned me as E-L29. Given that the numbers keep changing, would I be right in saying that this is the former E-M84, which was previously designated E1b1b1c1a?

Thanks.

Agamemnon
06-19-2018, 12:17 AM
Hi guys.

23andme have assigned me as E-L29. Given that the numbers keep changing, would I be right in saying that this is the former E-M84, which was previously designated E1b1b1c1a?

Thanks.

Yes, L29 is an M84 equivalent.

Tz85
06-19-2018, 12:26 AM
His ancestor nicknamed "The Moor" was from Sarzana, and Sarzana is in Liguria, not in Tuscany. In fact his nickname was «Il Moro di Sarzana», the Moor from Sarzana.

Napoleon referred to himself as a Tuscan when he spoke confidentially to doctor Francesco Antomarchi, because his father had obtained from a Tuscan family with the same surname and registered in the nobility of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany a document stating that they were relatives. In this way Napoleon became of noble origin and this document allowed Napoleon to enroll in the military school in France. But we do not know if this Tuscan family was really connected to that of Napoleon, the family has become extinct. And there are those who maintain that the Tuscan family with surname Buonaparte was originally from Sarzana in Liguria.

In any case, Napoleon's haplogroup is extremely rare both in south-eastern Liguria (where Sarzana is located) and in Tuscany. There in the areas between Liguria and Tuscany, R1b reaches 80%, and the majority is U152. So it is quite clear that Napoleon's haplogroup, E1b1b1c1 * (E-M34), is due to an external migration very different from the bulk of the population.

Yep his father's ancestors probably came from Egypt, so?

Don't want to forget to mention that, this was 1000s of years ago

Andrewid
06-19-2018, 12:48 AM
Yes, L29 is an M84 equivalent.

How do I discover if I have the M84B variant that has been mentioned in this thread?

Thanks.

Agamemnon
06-19-2018, 12:50 AM
How do I discover if I have the M84B variant that has been mentioned in this thread?

Thanks.

Take the SNP panel on FTDNA or the E1b-Z834 panel on Yseq.

Andrewid
06-19-2018, 07:09 AM
Take the SNP panel on FTDNA or the E1b-Z834 panel on Yseq.

Thanks Agamemnon!

I've already taken the Y-67 marker test on FTDNA. With that the result is less precise than 23andme, refining it only as far as E-M35. One of the reasons I took it was to be able to upgrade at a later date, given the huge cost of full Y-chromosome testing. Would their Big-Y cover this or would separate SNP tests still have to be undertaken?

Thanks again.

Andrewid
06-20-2018, 11:49 AM
I'm still somewhat confused by all the numbering.

According to FTDNA I am E-M35 and yet according to 23andme (more refined) I am E-L29 (E-M84), a subclade of E-M123. Isn't E-L29 a subclade of E-M34 rather than E-M35?

Thanks.

Shamayim
06-21-2018, 03:11 PM
contrary to what they say most of the e-m34 in europe are
from roman period from 70AD
and some even older pheonician period 800 bc
but yes it is younger than r1b without any doubt no question about it

p.s
it is not connected to moors or sarcesans that would be e-m81



North Africans do not solely belong to E-M81. Kabyles have a relatively high(10.5%) frequency of E-M34.

kingjohn
06-21-2018, 06:49 PM
North Africans do not solely belong to E-M81. Kabyles have a relatively high(10.5%) frequency of E-M34.

it is the main haplogroup in north african both in berbers and the arab population there .....
yes i know about the kabyle samples :)
i want to see more research on them to see if the e-m34 there is consistent
or just results of random sample only 19 people in this sample

Shamayim
06-24-2018, 03:50 PM
it is the main haplogroup in north african both in berbers and the arab population there .....
yes i know about the kabyle samples :)
i want to see more research on them to see if the e-m34 there is consistent
or just results of random sample only 19 people in this sample

E-M34 is also present at lower frequencies(1-5%) among Siwa Berbers, Tunisian Arabs and Berbers, Moroccan Berbers, and reach a peak of 11% among Saharawi-Mauritanians(189 samples from Bekada et al. 2013). 19 samples maybe few but there is nothing out of ordinary about this result.

Agamemnon
06-24-2018, 04:18 PM
I'm still somewhat confused by all the numbering.

According to FTDNA I am E-M35 and yet according to 23andme (more refined) I am E-L29 (E-M84), a subclade of E-M123. Isn't E-L29 a subclade of E-M34 rather than E-M35?

Thanks.

E-L29 (which is equivalent to M84) is a sub-branch of E-M34, which is a branch of E-M123. A simplified pathway going off the major nodes of E's phylogeny would be: E-M35 > E-Z827 > E-Z830 > E-PF1962 > E-M123 > E-M123 > E-M34 > E-L29.

Archaeologist77
09-09-2018, 04:44 PM
See below post.

Archaeologist77
09-09-2018, 04:47 PM
Replying to a question above, we are alone in our tightly clustered subclade of E-M78* with another family that shares our family tradition of descent from Persian-Jews from Armenia with a tradition of descent from nobility or a king. Our family settled in Hungary during the Ottoman period, while their family settled in Turkey. What separates our paternal lineage from everyone else is an ancient bottleneck in our that at one point Family Tree DNA identified informally in an email as an "ancient extinction event":



Hagyo-Kovacs Hungary/Iran Persian-Jewish nobility E-M78*


13 23 13 10 14 18 11 11 12 14 12 31 15 9 9 11 11 27 14 21 33 13 14 15 15 11 11 19 22 15 12 20 19 33 39 12 10



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Hagyo-Kovacs Hungary/Iran (1st cousin) Persian-Jewish nobility E-M78*


13 23 13 10 14 18 11 11 12 14 12 31 15 9 9 11 11 27 14 21 33 13 14 14 15 11 11 19 22 15 12 20 19 33 39 12 10



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dayian Armenia/Iran Persian-Jewish nobility E-M78*


13 23 13 10 14 18 11 11 12 14 12 31 15 9 9 11 11 28 14 19 33 13 14 15 15 11 12 19 22 15 12 19 19 33 38 11 10



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ANCIENT EXTINCTION EVENT



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Mayo/Majo Spain/Turkey Sephardic E-M78+V65


13 24 16 10 17 18 11 12 12 13 11 30 16 9 9 11 11 27 14 20 33 15 16 16 17 11 12 19 22 15 12 20 20 33 35 12 10




We've tested for all the subclades of E-M78 and have remained in E-M78* and negative for all other subclades of E-M78. The Sephardic sample of Mayo above is not in the same YDNA subclade as our family and for illustration purposes only.

E-P2, E-Z830, E-M123 and E-M34 and East Semitic

As far as the discussion above, the Natufian ancient DNA tested into E-P2 and E-Z830 is the strongest link we have to the origins of East Semitic as per my hypothesis above, and would then suggest E-P2, E-Z830, E-M123 and E-M34 are the founding YDNA haplogroups of Akkadian and East Semitic. This isn't archaeology or archaeogenetics until we have ancient results from an Akkadian skeleton excavated in Mesopotamia to confirm this hypothesis.

RECALL that the Natufian culture in the Southern Levant as evidenced at sites in what is Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria today was the first known culture to "keep kosher" in this region that gave birth to the Semitic language in the Early Bronze Age as evidenced by the total absence of pig from the diet as no pig bones were found in excavations at Natufian sites. This surely is the origin of the Semitic tradition to abstain from pigs and likely was imported to Natufian sites from North Africa in the Natufian migration. This is known by archaeologists, but not identified as "Semitic" due to the absence of any linguistic markers or inscriptions in the Natufian material culture that can be identified as Semitic as this far pre-dates the earliest known Semitic inscriptions. If we accept the absence of pig bones as a Semitic marker then it is such.

Nonetheless, the new research on an ancient site in the Galilee region of Israel from the Peqi’in Cave in the Late Chalcolithic period supports this hypothesis as follows:

1) YDNA Haplogroup E: Epipaleolithic & Neolithic period in the Levant including the Natufian society and culture.
2) YDNA Haplogroup T: Late Chalcolithic period in the Upper Galilee in the Peqi’in Cave society and culture.
3) YDNA Haplogroup J: Bronze Age Levant dominated by the Canaanite society and culture.

All of these groups combined together to form the pre-Israelite "People of the Land of Canaan" as well as the logical connection to East Semitic. Why?

Read the research summary in the excellent article "Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel reveals the role of population mixture in cultural transformation" and you'll find this quote:


"Most of the male individuals [from the Peqi’in Cave] (nine out of ten) belong to the Y-chromosome haplogroup T, a lineage thought to have diversified in the Near East. This finding contrasts with both earlier (Neolithic and Epipaleolithic) Levantine populations, which were dominated by haplogroup E, and later Bronze Age individuals, all of whom belonged to haplogroup J."

The underlying hypothesis is that the first language of the Levant (region of Israel, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon today) was a Proto-Semitic language common to both East and West Semitic that the Natufians brought with them out of Africa from the Afro-Asiatic homeland as per the conclusion of the article, Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East.

llclair
12-22-2019, 04:54 AM
. I found your post quite interesting. My lineage is also E-L791. Is it known when the Atlantic branch split off? Is the approximate % of E-L791 in various populations known? Many thanks.

LL Clair

hartaisarlag
12-22-2019, 06:02 AM
. I found your post quite interesting. My lineage is also E-L791. Is it known when the Atlantic branch split off? Is the approximate % of E-L791 in various populations known? Many thanks.

LL Clair

Do you happen to know which branch of E-L791?

The latest estimate says that the "Atlantic branch", E-Y2947, split from E-Y4971 ca. 3400 BCE. It's worth noting that FTDNA just grouped these two branches together under E-Z20942, to the exclusion of E-BY45413 (which seems to include a South Italian, a Macedonian, and an Albanian).

I'll also caution that "Atlantic branch" is a misnomer—it has been found in all the Atlantic seaboard countries of Europe, yes, but it's also been found in Armenia, Turkey, Lebanon, Greece, Italy, Russia, and Hungary.

I also don't think there are any good estimates of the % of L791 is any populations, other than Ashkenazi Jews (where all of it comes from one particular large branch). E-M84 is clearly a larger branch of E-M34 than E-L791 (or rather, the wider, older E-Z841). But whether there are regional exceptions to this trend, I don't know. At least superficially, E-L791 seems to have a more European skew, even though it seems highly likely that its source is Near Eastern. I have no clue which migrations might account for E-L791's non-Jewish presence in Europe.

StillWater
12-22-2019, 06:38 AM
Replying to a question above, we are alone in our tightly clustered subclade of E-M78* with another family that shares our family tradition of descent from Persian-Jews from Armenia with a tradition of descent from nobility or a king. Our family settled in Hungary during the Ottoman period, while their family settled in Turkey. What separates our paternal lineage from everyone else is an ancient bottleneck in our that at one point Family Tree DNA identified informally in an email as an "ancient extinction event":



Hagyo-Kovacs Hungary/Iran Persian-Jewish nobility E-M78*


13 23 13 10 14 18 11 11 12 14 12 31 15 9 9 11 11 27 14 21 33 13 14 15 15 11 11 19 22 15 12 20 19 33 39 12 10



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Hagyo-Kovacs Hungary/Iran (1st cousin) Persian-Jewish nobility E-M78*


13 23 13 10 14 18 11 11 12 14 12 31 15 9 9 11 11 27 14 21 33 13 14 14 15 11 11 19 22 15 12 20 19 33 39 12 10



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dayian Armenia/Iran Persian-Jewish nobility E-M78*


13 23 13 10 14 18 11 11 12 14 12 31 15 9 9 11 11 28 14 19 33 13 14 15 15 11 12 19 22 15 12 19 19 33 38 11 10



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ANCIENT EXTINCTION EVENT



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Mayo/Majo Spain/Turkey Sephardic E-M78+V65


13 24 16 10 17 18 11 12 12 13 11 30 16 9 9 11 11 27 14 20 33 15 16 16 17 11 12 19 22 15 12 20 20 33 35 12 10




We've tested for all the subclades of E-M78 and have remained in E-M78* and negative for all other subclades of E-M78. The Sephardic sample of Mayo above is not in the same YDNA subclade as our family and for illustration purposes only.

E-P2, E-Z830, E-M123 and E-M34 and East Semitic

As far as the discussion above, the Natufian ancient DNA tested into E-P2 and E-Z830 is the strongest link we have to the origins of East Semitic as per my hypothesis above, and would then suggest E-P2, E-Z830, E-M123 and E-M34 are the founding YDNA haplogroups of Akkadian and East Semitic. This isn't archaeology or archaeogenetics until we have ancient results from an Akkadian skeleton excavated in Mesopotamia to confirm this hypothesis.

RECALL that the Natufian culture in the Southern Levant as evidenced at sites in what is Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria today was the first known culture to "keep kosher" in this region that gave birth to the Semitic language in the Early Bronze Age as evidenced by the total absence of pig from the diet as no pig bones were found in excavations at Natufian sites. This surely is the origin of the Semitic tradition to abstain from pigs and likely was imported to Natufian sites from North Africa in the Natufian migration. This is known by archaeologists, but not identified as "Semitic" due to the absence of any linguistic markers or inscriptions in the Natufian material culture that can be identified as Semitic as this far pre-dates the earliest known Semitic inscriptions. If we accept the absence of pig bones as a Semitic marker then it is such.

Nonetheless, the new research on an ancient site in the Galilee region of Israel from the Peqi’in Cave in the Late Chalcolithic period supports this hypothesis as follows:

1) YDNA Haplogroup E: Epipaleolithic & Neolithic period in the Levant including the Natufian society and culture.
2) YDNA Haplogroup T: Late Chalcolithic period in the Upper Galilee in the Peqi’in Cave society and culture.
3) YDNA Haplogroup J: Bronze Age Levant dominated by the Canaanite society and culture.

All of these groups combined together to form the pre-Israelite "People of the Land of Canaan" as well as the logical connection to East Semitic. Why?

Read the research summary in the excellent article "Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel reveals the role of population mixture in cultural transformation" and you'll find this quote:



The underlying hypothesis is that the first language of the Levant (region of Israel, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon today) was a Proto-Semitic language common to both East and West Semitic that the Natufians brought with them out of Africa from the Afro-Asiatic homeland as per the conclusion of the article, Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East.

Tell me more about these Persian Jews in Armenia.

divon
07-10-2020, 12:07 AM
There's a long history of Mizrahi Jews intermixing with Ashkenazi - either directly or via the Sepharadi Jews who some of them, after expellsion from Spain in 1492, settled throughout the Ottoman empire including Syria and over time merged with the local Mizrahi commuinty - in fact, the ex head of the Israeli military is Gabi Ashkenazi - he has his roots are in the Syrian Jewish community, but as his name attests, the story is more complex.


i think i belong to E-M84>Y14981
because efgen from e3b haplozone
use to classified me as m84-b that was only based on 12 markers ......... ???
but this an aschenazi clade
and my direct paternal line is syrian jewish from damascus so what is the conection ???????? :\
my paternal line was seperated from aschenazi m-34 at least 1900 ybp since the beginning of the diaspora......

regards
adam

p.s
i think only yfull could explain this but it is bloody expensive.... :)

Squad
02-04-2021, 09:32 AM
Afro-asiatic languages most definitely originated in Egypt. The haplogroup that best fits their diffusion is without a single doubt E-M78. It has a significant presence in every afrasian population, even chadic people have a clade of their own, E-Y161081, brother of the berber E-V65. I would say that the people that brought afrasian to the Near East were mainly carriers of E-V22. There they mixed with some ancient relatives, the descendants of the Natufians, bearers of E-PF1962, who are surely derived from an early incursion from Egypt as well, albeit prior to the expansion of the afrasian linguistic block. These 2 people then mixed with incoming J people from Mesopotamia before diffusing what would become the semitic languages to the whole area.

Anyone denying the involvement of E-V22 in the spread of semitic is foolish at worst and ignorant at best. It is really obvious that V22 went through a huge star-like expansion about 8.5kya. And it happens to have a significant presence throughout the Middle East, even as far south as Yemen.

M84, L791, P58 and M205's involvement is secondary and collateral. The movement was started by incoming V22 people together with V12 and what not.

Farroukh
02-05-2021, 06:41 PM
E-M35 and Afro-Asiatic proto-language (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16529-E-M35-and-Afro-Asiatic-proto-language)

TuaMan
02-15-2021, 03:00 AM
Afro-asiatic languages most definitely originated in Egypt. The haplogroup that best fits their diffusion is without a single doubt E-M78. It has a significant presence in every afrasian population, even chadic people have a clade of their own, E-Y161081, brother of the berber E-V65. I would say that the people that brought afrasian to the Near East were mainly carriers of E-V22. There they mixed with some ancient relatives, the descendants of the Natufians, bearers of E-PF1962, who are surely derived from an early incursion from Egypt as well, albeit prior to the expansion of the afrasian linguistic block. These 2 people then mixed with incoming J people from Mesopotamia before diffusing what would become the semitic languages to the whole area.

Anyone denying the involvement of E-V22 in the spread of semitic is foolish at worst and ignorant at best. It is really obvious that V22 went through a huge star-like expansion about 8.5kya. And it happens to have a significant presence throughout the Middle East, even as far south as Yemen.

M84, L791, P58 and M205's involvement is secondary and collateral. The movement was started by incoming V22 people together with V12 and what not.

This is basically what I've come to conclude as well. I think the neolithicization of Egypt circa 6,000 BCE led to the breakdown of proto-AA and the diffusion of the different sub-branches across Africa, with a reflux (Semitic) into the Middle East. What are you thoughts? And how does Omotic fit into your model?

Farroukh
02-18-2021, 02:45 AM
This topic is about E-M34 and Semitic languages.
Discussion for more ancient reconstructions about E-M35 and AA was linked above. :)