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jpb
01-06-2017, 03:01 PM
This was already posted on the 23andme Forum but I found new info and thought I would share t on here.

My Aunt (1/2 Scots-Irish, 1/4 English, 1/4 Bavarian) gets 0.2% Finnish DNA. It is on Chromosome 11 and is surrounded by Broadly NW European on the whole Chromosome.

Is this real Finnish ancestry or just an ancient signal.

cvolt
01-06-2017, 03:32 PM
It could be noise or it could be from Scandinavians in the British Isles a while back.

C J Wyatt III
01-06-2017, 04:01 PM
Is this real Finnish ancestry or just an ancient signal.

Have you uploaded to GEDmatch? I'd see what sort of levels the various admixture utilities give there.

Jack Wyatt

jpb
01-07-2017, 06:07 PM
I don't have access to raw data at moment.

The thing is is I, myself, have Finnish matches on the same line as this great aunt. Just my matches and her Finnish admixture are on different chromosomes. Could it be that she got different segments from the Finnish ancestor than my grandpa? I have close to 50 Finnish matches on one segment on FTDNA.

A Norfolk L-M20
01-07-2017, 06:36 PM
I recently looked at the 23andMe test results of 18 English people. Four of the eighteen reported small percentages of Finnish:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9466-Typical-English-23-ancestry-composition

jpb
01-07-2017, 07:02 PM
I'm not sure if it's from her Scottish, English, or Bavarian side though. I'm trying to figure it out. It's surrounded on Chr. 11 by BNWE.

C J Wyatt III
01-07-2017, 07:09 PM
I don't have access to raw data at moment.

The thing is is I, myself, have Finnish matches on the same line as this great aunt. Just my matches and her Finnish admixture are on different chromosomes. Could it be that she got different segments from the Finnish ancestor than my grandpa? I have close to 50 Finnish matches on one segment on FTDNA.

Personally, I am skeptical about admixture/ethnicity programs. I think the developers of even the best have missed something so significant that I am even more doubtful when it comes down to chromosome painting.

If anyone answers the question of where the Finnish comes from, that person will have answered a lot of people's questions. When the answer does come out, I think many people will be surprised at what it is. No one has really figured it out yet.

Jack

C J Wyatt III
01-07-2017, 07:11 PM
I'm not sure if it's from her Scottish, English, or Bavarian side though. I'm trying to figure it out. It's surrounded on Chr. 11 by BNWE.

Could you give the range for that matching Finnish area on #11?

Thanks,

Jack

jpb
01-07-2017, 08:35 PM
What do you mean by range? It is near the beginning of Chr. 11. 13512

C J Wyatt III
01-07-2017, 08:51 PM
What do you mean by range? It is near the beginning of Chr. 11. 13512

Thanks, that is good enough.

GEDmatch will give you the range of a segment in Mbp (Million base-pairs) and Family Finder Chromosome Finder will pop up the range if you hover your mouse pointer on the matching segment. I see a lot of matching on #11 up around the telomere (up and down arrowhead shown for each chromosome). I think that is around 45 Mbp with a lot of matching 60- 70 Mbp.

Your matching segment is lower than the region I was interested in, but I'll see what I can find in your area.

Jack

jpb
01-07-2017, 08:58 PM
The place where I myself match Finns is on chr. 19. My g-aunts ethnic segment is on her Chr. 11.

jpb
01-07-2017, 08:58 PM
Does it look like it's real or noise to you? I'm kind of new to this :)

C J Wyatt III
01-07-2017, 09:14 PM
Does it look like it's real or noise to you? I'm kind of new to this :)

Well, a lot of my ideas/findings are out of the mainstream so whatever I say will get some disagreement.

I think the Finnish is real. Lots of people have it, but no one has really has figured out the source. I would use my time and resources on other stuff first and not spend too much time or thought on this one.

Hope this helps.

Jack

jpb
01-07-2017, 09:16 PM
It is very helpful! Thank you!

grandpas
01-23-2017, 08:58 AM
I m french and i have too, finnish DNA (0.7%)
In my point, this is in link with Magyar Invasion in east of france and south of germany (bavière, etc,..) because i have lots of ancestors in east of france.
Magyar people is a finno group. they came from hungary (but first south of finland).
they invaded east of france (alsace, burgundy, etc,..) during invasion of viking in west of france (Normandy, Loire river, etc,..).
they stays many years in south of germany and east of france.

but don't forget viking trade include slave women from south of finland (and novgorod, etc,..) : http://resources.anmm.gov.au/kiosks/www_vikings/Viking_Traders_v5.1.swf

grandpas
01-23-2017, 09:16 AM
you can see the area of magyar invasion here (with precision) :

http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alternatehistory.co m%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2Finvasions-jpg.11315%2F&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alternatehistory.com%2F forum%2Fthreads%2Fchallenge-islamic-renaissance.30290%2F&h=663&w=787&tbnid=uS0ys7U1sCiPgM%3A&vet=1&docid=PSZv-pBXyaQKLM&ei=ismFWPeUCczHmwGb9rrYDw&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=390&page=0&start=0&ndsp=43&ved=0ahUKEwj3gYH09tfRAhXM4yYKHRu7DvsQMwgqKA4wDg&bih=950&biw=1920

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-23-2017, 02:09 PM
I had a significant chunk of "Finnish" on Chromo 2 (all recent British ancestry) and it comes up on some other calculators. The Britain's DNA people said it may reflect shared early ancestry which I think is likely to be correct. I also tend to get Ashkenazi and Native American, even Kalash and think the same probably applies there. I found a new one recently "Arctic Amerindian". Maybe we shouldn't take these descriptions too literally but they mave have some basis in fact. John

grandpas
01-24-2017, 02:56 PM
I have make a mistake above : the magyar, from hungary, don't came before from Finland first, BUT.... it exists a link today with ancient magyar (map area above) and Finland today :

http://epicworldhistory.blogspot.fr/2013/07/magyar-invasions.html

they write : "It is believed that the Magyars were originally part of a group of people who lived in western Siberia. Today most of the peoples in this group live in Russia, except the Hungarians and those living in the Baltic region and Finland."

then, I think the project "1000genomes" or other tools of DNA maked confusion in the study between DNA of finland and others ancient magyar area (1000 years ago).
Probably, we can show again a link with antiquity invasions...and DNA today. even if the link is not direct.
The dna is not mistaken, but deceives....

anglesqueville
01-24-2017, 03:59 PM
I have make a mistake above : the magyar, from hungary, don't came before from Finland first, BUT.... it exists a link today with ancient magyar (map area above) and Finland today :

http://epicworldhistory.blogspot.fr/2013/07/magyar-invasions.html

they write : "It is believed that the Magyars were originally part of a group of people who lived in western Siberia. Today most of the peoples in this group live in Russia, except the Hungarians and those living in the Baltic region and Finland."

then, I think the project "1000genomes" or other tools of DNA maked confusion in the study between DNA of finland and others ancient magyar area (1000 years ago).
Probably, we can show again a link with antiquity invasions...and DNA today. even if the link is not direct.
The dna is not mistaken, but deceives....


I'll quote myself, from 23&me's forum: The only relatedness between Finns and Magyars is, in reality, between Finnish and Magyar (languages), and even it is very distant, as the uralic stamm separated in finno-permic and ugric branches probably around 1500 BC. Despite what some amateurs use to think, modern hungarian and modern finnish are actually far more distant than, say swedish and spanish. Genetically spoken, according to all recent studies, modern hungarians clusterize with all west-central european ( including british and french), very far from Finns and north-Russians. Historically spoken, Finns and Magyars share some ancestors, but around 4000 BC.
Furthermore many studies have proved that the actual Magyars ( Arpad's guys, nothing to see with Attila and the hunnish phenomenon) did'nt let in Hungary anything but their language, and in particular that there is no significant indication of a genetical input. It would be very paradoxal for those people to have left genes in Finland (where they never set feet), and not in Hungary ( country they founded and ruled). No, such a magyar hypothesis is definitly not serious.

edit: btw, what is this story about a mistake of 1000genomes? Did anyone hear anything about? The only thing I read which may be related to is about a study about hypothetic mongolian admixture in Finland. Here is M. Myllyllä's comment: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fr/2015/09/new-study-claims-that-finns-have-not.html
His blog is a precious source of informations about the genetics of the Finns.

Bas
01-24-2017, 04:45 PM
Admittedly I haven't even taken a DNA test yet, but like John I would be sceptical of these kinds of things. You get a lot of people who have recently tested, picking up a very small amount of Finnish ancestry (it's always Finnish!). Being unfamiliar, a lot of people think they have a long-lost Finnish relative. Probably just a little extra WHG/EHG or something else ancient.

I think the best thing to do in these cases is to compare ancestry proportions with people of the same ethnicity and if that mystery component is significantly higher than the average, then it's real.

anglesqueville
01-24-2017, 04:51 PM
Admittedly I haven't even taken a DNA test yet, but like John I would be sceptical of these kinds of things. You get a lot of people who have recently tested, picking up a very small amount of Finnish ancestry (it's always Finnish!). Being unfamiliar, a lot of people think they have a long-lost Finnish relative. Probably just a little extra WHG/EHG or something else ancient.

I think the best thing to do in these cases is to compare ancestry proportions with people of the same ethnicity and if that mystery component is significantly higher than the average, then it's real.

... then it may be real. I think the best thing is to 1) List relatives 2) Compare with parents in order to eliminate false positives 3) Triangulate 4) Write to the closest relatives ( if TMRCA>7, no hope) 5) Search a genealogical validation.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-24-2017, 06:26 PM
This is quite an interesting article and links. I suppose the question is what do they mean by "Finnish"?
I doubt any of my British ancestors have been anywhere near Finland in the last 1,000 years, but it's quite possible I have some shared ancestral connection before that. :)
" the Finns seem to be an exception to this rule: they do not appear genetically very close to the Swedes although they are geographically nearby. However, the Finns tend to show inflated genetic distances relative to [all] the [other] European populations in general, not only relative to the Swedes. " John

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjplaresdvRAhWmLMAKHTe-DOsQFggfMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.khazaria.com%2Fgenetics%2Ffin ns.html&usg=AFQjCNEEq0mmLASLs3S6aBvzXAvspOBrKA&sig2=RtrMqaxuM5Jb_RfH0fewOg

cvolt
01-24-2017, 07:08 PM
Admittedly I haven't even taken a DNA test yet, but like John I would be sceptical of these kinds of things. You get a lot of people who have recently tested, picking up a very small amount of Finnish ancestry (it's always Finnish!). Being unfamiliar, a lot of people think they have a long-lost Finnish relative. Probably just a little extra WHG/EHG or something else ancient.

I think the best thing to do in these cases is to compare ancestry proportions with people of the same ethnicity and if that mystery component is significantly higher than the average, then it's real.

That's right! It's funny how unique you are until you compare it with other people of your ethnicity/ people with similar backgrounds. Unless it's a significant percentage and/or standing out in multiple calculators/ tests, it's probably not notable (in my opinion).

Calas
01-25-2017, 10:02 AM
Personally, I am skeptical about admixture/ethnicity programs. I think the developers of even the best have missed something so significant that I am even more doubtful when it comes down to chromosome painting.

If anyone answers the question of where the Finnish comes from, that person will have answered a lot of people's questions. When the answer does come out, I think many people will be surprised at what it is. No one has really figured it out yet.

Jack

Finns were raiders I hope you know. Tavastians, or Hämäläiset, or more specifically central Finns were known to have been not just war-like but rather into exploring and conquering new lands. Why not? Power, wealth, and well of course prestige for the pickings. Christianized Finns partook in Swedish & Norwegian raids. The Tavastians were the "Jems" in the Novgorodian Chronicles.

Then there's the Kvens who likely had very good relations with Norwegians. There isn't, unfortunately, much on them, however, it is acknowledged that yes they had allegiance with Norwegians. A number of their kings, steeped in mythology, had names which were likely Norweigan based before they'd be Finnish.


And though Finns weren't as often mentioned in the Sagas as Saami, who were considered wizards and oftentimes hung out with Viking chiefs, I doubt they were standing on the sidelines with their mouths hanging open. Ironic isn't it that the Novgorodian Chronicles & even the Viking Sagas note the Finns for their sorcery and well what do wizards do but magic. It does not help, mind you, that the Old Norse word "Finnr" is used almost interchangeably for actual Finns and actual Saami thus making the distinction based on location, or known names, but quite a bit harder when mentioned in passing.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-25-2017, 01:29 PM
My Chromo 2 European comparison - 9% Finnish and 12% Ashkenazi. With all - British ancestors over the last couple of hundred years, I don't think so, but there may be something there related to shared early origins. I don't get these on all calculators but I do tend to get Steppe/Central Asian, Native American (around 1%) John

13653

C J Wyatt III
01-25-2017, 03:15 PM
Calas,

I appreciate the historical information, but I think what happened is more like 300 years ago. Most people that have these Finnish connections (or vice versa) on GEDmatch show number of generations to MRCA as 6-8. Surely that estimate is not wrong for all of the many matches.

Jack

MitchellSince1893
01-25-2017, 04:02 PM
One of my own Finnish connections is in the1600s from the New Sweden Colony in the present day Delaware River Valley.


The colonists came from all over the Swedish realm. The percentage of Finns in New Sweden grew especially towards the end of the colonization,[28] comprising 22% of the population during Swedish rule, but rising to about 50% after the colony came under Dutch rule.[29] The year 1664 saw the arrival of a contingent of 140 Finns. In 1655, when the ship Mercurius sailed to the colony, 92 of the 106 passengers were listed as Finns. Memory of the early Finnish settlement lived on in place names near the Delaware River such as Finland (Marcus Hook), Torne, Lapland, Finns Point and Mullica Hill and Mullica River.[30]

A portion of these Finns were known as Forest Finns, people of Finnish descent living in the forest areas of Central Sweden.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sweden

Bas
01-25-2017, 05:55 PM
My Chromo 2 European comparison - 9% Finnish and 12% Ashkenazi. With all - British ancestors over the last couple of hundred years, I don't think so, but there may be something there related to shared early origins. I don't get these on all calculators but I do tend to get Steppe/Central Asian, Native American (around 1%) John

13653

Cheers John, the Finnish in the Admixture image you posted seems like it's present everywhere in Europe except Basques. Left to right, the Spanish get a little. It rises again with British and Irish and then again with the Germans. Throughout the Southern European populations it's low, but it's there although some of the samples don't have it at all and others have almost as much as Germans and Norwegians. Russians get a decent chunk of it, while the Baltic states get only as much as the British.

If it was something to do with extra WHG/EHG, i'd have thought that the Baltic states would have a load of this as well. Quite interesting as to what exactly it could be.

Shaikorth
01-25-2017, 06:33 PM
Cheers John, the Finnish in the Admixture image you posted seems like it's present everywhere in Europe except Basques. Left to right, the Spanish get a little. It rises again with British and Irish and then again with the Germans. Throughout the Southern European populations it's low, but it's there although some of the samples don't have it at all and others have almost as much as Germans and Norwegians. Russians get a decent chunk of it, while the Baltic states get only as much as the British.

If it was something to do with extra WHG/EHG, i'd have thought that the Baltic states would have a load of this as well. Quite interesting as to what exactly it could be.

ADMIXTURE easily makes drifted populations cores for its components, so we get "Basque", "Finnish" etc. in these runs. In a larger scheme the latter is quite similar to the NW Euro and Baltic components, with a shift towards Saamis.

http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.com/2016/12/new-data-gives-11-million-snps.html

wombatofthenorth
02-07-2017, 07:38 AM
according to all recent studies, modern hungarians clusterize with all west-central european ( including british and french), very far from Finns and north-Russians.

Not according to the studies I've seen. Hungarians belong to the Balkan group (made up of South Slavic and a few non-Slavic speakers, such as the Hungarians, who are autosomally fully related to the South Slavic speakers) it includes: Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Montenegrians, Serbians, Hungarians, Romanians and probably Macedonians.

The Balkan group is more closely genetically matched to the Eastern European super group than to the Western European super group or Scandinavian group. The Eastern European super group that includes the Baltic Group (Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians; note that while the Estonians are much more closely related to the Finnish than the Latvians or Lithuanians they are still much more closer related to the Latvians and Lithuanians than to the Finnish), West Slavic group (Polish, Sorbs, Czechs, Slovakians) and the East Slavic group (Belorussians, Ukrainians, North Russians, Central Russians, Southern Russians with the Belorussians, Ukrainians and South Russians forming a sub-group within the group).

Balkan and Eastern European super group together form an ultra :) group all genetically closer to each other than to the Western European super group.




Furthermore many studies have proved that the actual Magyars ( Arpad's guys, nothing to see with Attila and the hunnish phenomenon) did'nt let in Hungary anything but their language, and in particular that there is no significant indication of a genetical input.

Yeah basically they just replaced all the leaders who were so super few compared to the general population that the population wide genetics barely shifted even though the language did a total 180 and switched to an entirely different family even and they went from being South Slavic speakers to Finno-Ugric speakers.

wombatofthenorth
02-07-2017, 07:45 AM
Admittedly I haven't even taken a DNA test yet, but like John I would be sceptical of these kinds of things. You get a lot of people who have recently tested, picking up a very small amount of Finnish ancestry (it's always Finnish!). Being unfamiliar, a lot of people think they have a long-lost Finnish relative. Probably just a little extra WHG/EHG or something else ancient.

I think the best thing to do in these cases is to compare ancestry proportions with people of the same ethnicity and if that mystery component is significantly higher than the average, then it's real.

My dad scores a bit higher on Finland and Northern Siberia on Geno 2.0 NG than the average Latvian. He gets a bit more on 23 (about 1.9% I think). His Geno 2.0 results also hinted he might have a trace of Finnish to balance out something from Southeast of the Baltics perhaps in order to give his ratio of the basic ancient components. But we did not know for sure if it was real. Among other places he has a tiny 0.1 segment on a chromosome, maybe #2?, and it even disappears once you slide a couple steps away from speculative, BUT later we found that on the exact same segment that the 0.1% made up, he has six matches on FTDNA and five of the six list 100% Finnish ancestry and the sixth lists 100% mixed Scandinavian and Finnish ancestry. All their trees are nothing but Finnish from what I see. Names are all Finnish. So I think that proves that his Finnish is real in the family tree relevant time scale and he probably does have a Finnish ancestor around maybe 2x great-grandparent level or so.

anglesqueville
02-07-2017, 10:45 AM
Not according to the studies I've seen. Hungarians belong to the Balkan group (made up of South Slavic and a few non-Slavic speakers, such as the Hungarians, who are autosomally fully related to the South Slavic speakers) it includes: Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Montenegrians, Serbians, Hungarians, Romanians and probably Macedonians.

The Balkan group is more closely genetically matched to the Eastern European super group than to the Western European super group or Scandinavian group. The Eastern European super group that includes the Baltic Group (Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians; note that while the Estonians are much more closely related to the Finnish than the Latvians or Lithuanians they are still much more closer related to the Latvians and Lithuanians than to the Finnish), West Slavic group (Polish, Sorbs, Czechs, Slovakians) and the East Slavic group (Belorussians, Ukrainians, North Russians, Central Russians, Southern Russians with the Belorussians, Ukrainians and South Russians forming a sub-group within the group).

Balkan and Eastern European super group together form an ultra :) group all genetically closer to each other than to the Western European super group.




Yeah basically they just replaced all the leaders who were so super few compared to the general population that the population wide genetics barely shifted even though the language did a total 180 and switched to an entirely different family even and they went from being South Slavic speakers to Finno-Ugric speakers.

"Not according to the studies I've seen." You very likely saw the same as me. All depends on the level of examination, or, if you prefere to think in terms of cluster, on the number of clusters. For example, with the last published Basal-Rich K7 from Eurogenes ( basically the same as Lazaridis 2016):
13840 ( searchable pdf, search "hungarian")
13841
In the context of my post, the topic was basically the localisation of the hungarians, in comparison against the finns.

Solothurn
02-07-2017, 04:30 PM
I heard something about Scottish moving to Finland around 1700.

This is all I could find mentioning Finland :(

http://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2015/11/13/migration-from-scotland-before-1700/

wombatofthenorth
02-08-2017, 01:06 AM
"Not according to the studies I've seen." You very likely saw the same as me. All depends on the level of examination, or, if you prefere to think in terms of cluster, on the number of clusters. For example, with the last published Basal-Rich K7 from Eurogenes ( basically the same as Lazaridis 2016):
13840 ( searchable pdf, search "hungarian")
13841
In the context of my post, the topic was basically the localisation of the hungarians, in comparison against the finns.

No, very different studies and nothing to do with Eurogenes tools. A deep study of the whole greater Eastern European/Balkan group.

wombatofthenorth
02-08-2017, 01:12 AM
I heard something about Scottish moving to Finland around 1700.

This is all I could find mentioning Finland :(

http://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2015/11/13/migration-from-scotland-before-1700/

I know some Barclays of Ireland moved to the Baltics. The ones I know for sure trace back to Ireland were referred to in Latvia as the "Barklay/Barclay de Tolli".

Interestingly my mom has a relative listed as alternately Barklay or Berklaw or Barklaw born around 1770 (no idea where) who married a Baltic German (although we don't know where he was born either actually). We see Barclay de Tolli old records and we see some plain Barklay (who don't appear to link up to the Barclay de Tolli families in the Baltics, but maybe when back when, back in Ireland they were related??) but we can barely find any records on the two Barklay/Berklaw in our family line. All we have is birth records of some of her kids and then a 1796 revision list that lists her family along with a seeming niece of hers that they took in as a foster child. So far we just can't seem to find any more info on those two. We wonder if maybe they ultimately also trace back to Ireland/England???

anglesqueville
02-08-2017, 07:24 AM
No, very different studies and nothing to do with Eurogenes tools. A deep study of the whole greater Eastern European/Balkan group.

I'm interested ( in general, and personally, as my wife has some deep hungarian lines). Could you please link to these studies?

Jenny
02-08-2017, 10:53 AM
This is quite an interesting article and links. I suppose the question is what do they mean by "Finnish"?
I doubt any of my British ancestors have been anywhere near Finland in the last 1,000 years, but it's quite possible I have some shared ancestral connection before that. :)
" the Finns seem to be an exception to this rule: they do not appear genetically very close to the Swedes although they are geographically nearby. However, the Finns tend to show inflated genetic distances relative to [all] the [other] European populations in general, not only relative to the Swedes. " John

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjplaresdvRAhWmLMAKHTe-DOsQFggfMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.khazaria.com%2Fgenetics%2Ffin ns.html&usg=AFQjCNEEq0mmLASLs3S6aBvzXAvspOBrKA&sig2=RtrMqaxuM5Jb_RfH0fewOg

It's true if you only consider yDNA. many Finnish women are some flavor of H. And their trees go back to the 1400s.

wombatofthenorth
02-11-2017, 03:59 AM
I'm interested ( in general, and personally, as my wife has some deep hungarian lines). Could you please link to these studies?

i'll try to dig it up, i think i might have posted in some other message somewhere here