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Shamash
01-07-2017, 01:21 AM
New study with insights that parallel our findings at the J1 project especially when we look at my own subclade FGC3723!

"Subsequent expansions of J1 show the Mesopotamian branch extending to Arabia and Yemen at about 4 ka"

What we always suspected at the J1 project. I'm quite sure that my FGC3723 ancestors were part of that Mesoptamian branch reaching the South of the Arabian peninsula.

Source:

Mapping Post-Glacial expansions: The Peopling of Southwest Asia

Archaeological, palaeontological and geological evidence shows that post-glacial warming released human populations from their various climate-bound refugia. Yet specific connections between these refugia and the timing and routes of post-glacial migrations that ultimately established modern patterns of genetic variation remain elusive. Here, we use Y-chromosome markers combined with autosomal data to reconstruct population expansions from regional refugia in Southwest Asia. Populations from three regions in particular possess distinctive autosomal genetic signatures indicative of likely refugia: one, in the north, centered around the eastern coast of the Black Sea, the second, with a more Levantine focus, and the third in the southern Arabian Peninsula. Modern populations from these three regions carry the widest diversity and may indeed represent the most likely descendants of the populations responsible for the Neolithic cultures of Southwest Asia. We reveal the distinct and datable expansion routes of populations from these three refugia throughout Southwest Asia and into Europe and North Africa and discuss the possible correlations of these migrations to various cultural and climatic events evident in the archaeological record of the past 15,000 years.

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep40338?WT.feed_name=subjects_genetics

Shamash
01-07-2017, 01:37 AM
A possible reason for this exodus was an extraordinary drought that devastated ancient Mesopotamia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event

RCO
01-07-2017, 01:41 AM
A reasonable article but it seems a bit outdated, I would like to see more NGS technologies because that article could had been published five years ago and we need more Y-DNA full sequences and new data from unexplored Northern Middle Eastern and African regions.

Shamash
01-07-2017, 09:46 AM
A reasonable article but it seems a bit outdated, I would like to see more NGS technologies because that article could had been published five years ago and we need more Y-DNA full sequences and new data from unexplored Northern Middle Eastern and African regions.


Well, that's on my 2017 wish list too!

Shamash
01-07-2017, 09:54 AM
13511

RCO
01-07-2017, 11:36 AM
The authors only used a NGS tree in this case: "e.g. E-M81 is estimated at 14.2 kya reported at YTree". I have always said that my own J1 branch, first M365, then FGC5987 to FGC6175 came from the Northern Middle East, probably from the Caspian areas because we have relatively close STRs matches from Northern Iran in the Gilaki population, I always tried to have a full Y_DNA sequence from that Gilaki samples, I offered to pay, but as far as I know no FGC6064 has been publicly tested from the Caspian Sea, Northern Iran. When FTDNA created the J1-M267 Project they didn't want to invite our J1-M365 Project because we always said J1 came from the Northern regions of Eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, the Caspian Sea, Northern Iran, Zagros to the South and the basal J1 branches never were related to the Southern Semitic languages. J1 in the Arabian Plate and Levant is relatively new and specific to some derived clusters downstream of P58 while the biggest diversity and longest J1 TMRCAs are Northern. Now we urgently need to know the geography and distribution of basal J1 types like FGC6064 with very ancient bifurcations in those regions. We need a good NGS investigation in the Northern Iranian J1 types because some types of J1 were possibly Indo-European for a good time and they can be among the first ones related to the autosomal component Caucasus hunter-gatherer (CHG).

Shamash
01-07-2017, 12:54 PM
"Our study has identified the Caucasus refugium as the likely source for the J1 and J2 haplogroups that now dominate Southwest Asia, and previously appeared to mark the Neolithic Revolution’s expansion into Europe"

J1 DYS388=13
01-07-2017, 04:49 PM
"Our study has identified the Caucasus refugium as the likely source for the J1 and J2 haplogroups that now dominate Southwest Asia, and previously appeared to mark the Neolithic Revolution’s expansion into Europe"

Do you agree with that statement?

Shamash
01-07-2017, 05:09 PM
As far as J1 is concerned the Caucasus is definitely a very good candidate but we'll need a lot more aDNA to verify that! But think of the Satsurblia J1 man. This could be a hint...

But as far as the Mesopotamian J1 branch is concerned FGC11 with all its descendants in the Arabian peninsula is very likely to have been part of that J1 expansion 4kybp

Lank
01-07-2017, 07:07 PM
Those of you who are more knowledgeable about Y-DNA J1, what is your impression of the Ethiopian lineages?

According to this study, Ethiopia has the second-highest diversity after the Caucasus. But it seems difficult to guess when J1 would have migrated to Africa. The lack of J1 in the Mesolithic and PPNB Levant may suggest a more recent arrival, in the Bronze Age. But the high diversity in Ethiopia, and high levels in Cushitic and North Omotic groups rather than just Semitic speakers, suggest otherwise. Then again we are lacking aDNA from Arabia, so perhaps the ancient Arabian diversity is represented in Ethiopia, and was masked in Arabia by more recent bottlenecks?

Agamemnon
01-07-2017, 08:37 PM
This is a pretty strange study, while the expansion dates seem to be correct (although a bit off), the expansion is unlikely to have started from Mesopotamia. Rather, since the different branches of YSC234 seem to closely track the dispersal of Semitic-speaking groups, the starting point should be located in the Southern Levant and its immediate surroundings. As Davidski said, do it right or don't do it at all... This study literally brings nothing new, not even regarding the phylogeography of the markers it purports to analyse, and as we all know now making assertions about the past using contemporary populations is tricky at best.


Those of you who are more knowledgeable about Y-DNA J1, what is your impression of the Ethiopian lineages?

According to this study, Ethiopia has the second-highest diversity after the Caucasus. But it seems difficult to guess when J1 would have migrated to Africa. The lack of J1 in the Mesolithic and PPNB Levant may suggest a more recent arrival, in the Bronze Age. But the high diversity in Ethiopia, and high levels in Cushitic and North Omotic groups rather than just Semitic speakers, suggest otherwise. Then again we are lacking aDNA from Arabia, so perhaps the ancient Arabian diversity is represented in Ethiopia, and was masked in Arabia by more recent bottlenecks?

Even though J1 in East Africa is severely understudied, what I've seen so far suggests that most of it is P56 and that a sizeable minority is Arabian in origin. There might also be a few L93 cases here and there... However, much of this is pure conjecture without more ancient DNA from NE Africa and the Middle East. The high J1 frequencies in North Omotic and Cushitic-speaking groups are indeed hard to interpret at this point, I am not convinced by the claims made by some Arab genealogists that these people are Arabian in origin.
And you're quite right, there's been a huge amount of bottlenecks and founder effects in the last 2,000 years in Arabia, so well that I'm not exactly certain J1 used to be that common by the past (it looks as if it might've been strictly relegated to nomadic groups quite frankly, but this is also conjecture).

Also, I have no idea how they came to the conclusion that the Caucasus is the main diversity hotspot for J1, this seems rather odd because J1 is notoriously monolithic in the Caucasus, looks like they're shifting the homeland narrative away from SE Anatolia/Zagros/Taurus to the Caucasus because of Satsurblia and the absence of J1 in all results from the aforementioned area.


As far as J1 is concerned the Caucasus is definitely a very good candidate but we'll need a lot more aDNA to verify that! But think of the Satsurblia J1 man. This could be a hint...

But as far as the Mesopotamian J1 branch is concerned FGC11 with all its descendants in the Arabian peninsula is very likely to have been part of that J1 expansion 4kybp

Well that's the main problem really, I have a hard time seeing how FGC11 could have expanded from Mesopotamia, there literally is no large-scale movement out of Mesopotamia during this time frame (the 3rd millenium BCE), quite the opposite in fact since the region was becoming a genetic sink (think of the Akkadians and the Amorites gradually infiltrating the region through successive migrations of pastoral nomads).

Awale
01-07-2017, 08:51 PM
Those of you who are more knowledgeable about Y-DNA J1, what is your impression of the Ethiopian lineages?

According to this study, Ethiopia has the second-highest diversity after the Caucasus. But it seems difficult to guess when J1 would have migrated to Africa. The lack of J1 in the Mesolithic and PPNB Levant may suggest a more recent arrival, in the Bronze Age. But the high diversity in Ethiopia, and high levels in Cushitic and North Omotic groups rather than just Semitic speakers, suggest otherwise. Then again we are lacking aDNA from Arabia, so perhaps the ancient Arabian diversity is represented in Ethiopia, and was masked in Arabia by more recent bottlenecks?

Yes, after the Natufian and PPNB samples, I've been looking at the J1 in the horn as being rather recent in origin with the horn being mainly E-M35, T-M70 and A-M13 prior. But it really is confusing how J1 seems to peak with some Omotic speakers (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/06/omotic-speakers-uniparental-data.html) and now that this study is claiming what you mentioned (something I've somewhat heard claimed prior).

http://oi66.tinypic.com/14m41zk.jpg

Huuwat? You maybe right with the following though:


Then again we are lacking aDNA from Arabia, so perhaps the ancient Arabian diversity is represented in Ethiopia, and was masked in Arabia by more recent bottlenecks?

Interesting, I guess.

vettor
01-07-2017, 08:59 PM
Yes, after the Natufian and PPNB samples, I've been looking at the J1 in the horn as being rather recent in origin with the horn being mainly E-M35, T-M70 and A-M13 prior. But it really is confusing how J1 seems to peak with some Omotic speakers (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/06/omotic-speakers-uniparental-data.html) and now that this study is claiming what you mentioned (something I've somewhat heard claimed prior).

http://oi66.tinypic.com/14m41zk.jpg

Huuwat? You maybe right with the following though:



Interesting, I guess.

I seen your J1 , T-M70 and E-M35 in the horn as no older than 1600 years ago

But have seen E-M35 in northern Egypt as 7000 years ago along with R1-V88 and T-Pages21 and J1

https://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unraveling_the_Prehistoric_Ancestry_of_the_present-day_Inhabitants_of_Northeast_Africa._An_Archaeogen etic_Approach_to_Neolithisation

Lank
01-07-2017, 09:22 PM
Even though J1 in Africa is severely understudied, what I've seen so far suggests that most of it is P56 and that a sizeable minority is Arabian in origin. There might also be a few L93 cases here and there... However, much of this is pure conjecture without more ancient DNA from NE Africa and the Middle East. The high J1 frequencies in North Omotic and Cushitic-speaking groups are indeed hard to interpret at this point, I am not convinced by the claims made by some Arab genealogists that these people are Arabian in origin.
And you're quite right, there's been a huge amount of bottlenecks and founder effects in the last 2,000 years in Arabia, so well that I'm not exactly certain J1 used to be that common by the past (it looks as if it might've been strictly relegated to nomadic groups quite frankly, but this is also conjecture).
Yeah, P56 is pretty common in Ethiopia from what I've seen, but this (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/) study claimed the majority (>70%) of 48 Amhara J1 carriers belonged to P58. Although their P58 status was inferred based on Y-STR markers and not directly tested, as far as I can tell. There is a chance that other Ethiopian groups would turn out different, but I personally doubt P58 can have a significant presence only in Amhara, since they are similar to other Ethiopians overall. I know of a J1-P58 Arsi Oromo at 23andMe, for example, and Arsi are not exactly known for mixing with Amhara.

Awale
01-07-2017, 09:24 PM
I seen your J1 , T-M70 and E-M35 in the horn as no older than 1600 years ago

What? Is that how South-Cushitic speakers who began leaving the Horn like 2,000-3,000 years ago carried T-M70 and E-M35 lineages which they spread to people in Southeast Africa? See here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/05/south-cushitic-admixture-in-southeast.html), here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/07/the-savanna-pastoral-neolithic-cushitic.html), here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/08/meager-comments-on-new-haplogroup-e.html) and here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/08/not-everything-cushitic-south-of-horn.html). Or how Somalis, who arguably haven't notably shared a gene pool with (or intermixed with) Habeshas for over 3,000 years have Y-DNA HGs like E-V32 and T-M70 present among them (like Habeshas do (http://ethiohelix.blogspot.ae/2012/11/extensive-doctoral-thesis-on-ethiopian.html))? Is that also why there's really no sign of notable recent West Asian admixture, from an autosomal standpoint, in groups like Somalis unlike with Agaws and Habeshas (see here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/01/the-later-west-eurasian-element-in-agaws.html))? You seem to be under this weird impression that both the autosomal and uniparental West-Eurasian input in the Horn (not that I'm entirely even counting E-M35 within this) is very recent (like within the last 1,500 years) which is absurd and it just highlights how little you know about the region's history and admixture. You need to do some more research... Here's one old piece (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/07/horn-africans-mixture-between-east.html) of suggested reading from the Sheikh though.

But anyway, this is an off-topic tangent. Lets mostly stick to the subject at hand here: J1 and this paper.


But have seen E-M35 in northern Egypt as 7000 years ago along with R1-V88 and T-Pages21 and J1

https://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unr...Neolithisation

Thanks for the paper.

Shamash
01-07-2017, 09:50 PM
This is a pretty strange study, while the expansion dates seem to be correct (although a bit off), the expansion is unlikely to have started from Mesopotamia. Rather, since the different branches of YSC234 seem to closely track the dispersal of Semitic-speaking groups, the starting point should be located in the Southern Levant and its immediate surroundings. As Davidski said, do it right or don't do it at all... This study literally brings nothing new, not even regarding the phylogeography of the markers it purports to analyse, and as we all know now making assertions about the past using contemporary populations is tricky at best.

Well that's the main problem really, I have a hard time seeing how FGC11 could have expanded from Mesopotamia, there literally is no large-scale movement out of Mesopotamia during this time frame (the 3rd millenium BCE), quite the opposite in fact since the region was becoming a genetic sink (think of the Akkadians and the Amorites gradually infiltrating the region through successive migrations of pastoral nomads).

I hear you. We'll have to wait on significant more aDNA samples from the whole Middle East to clear the exact migration paths: what we really need is Akkadian y-DNA AND Amorite y-DNA as well. Would be fine to see which subclade of J1 ancient Akkadians were belonging to. As a FGC3723 I desire ancient Yemeni samples as well!

Agamemnon
01-07-2017, 10:30 PM
Yeah, P56 is pretty common in Ethiopia from what I've seen, but this (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/) study claimed the majority (>70%) of 48 Amhara J1 carriers belonged to P58. Although their P58 status was inferred based on Y-STR markers and not directly tested, as far as I can tell. There is a chance that other Ethiopian groups would turn out different, but I personally doubt P58 can have a significant presence only in Amhara, since they are similar to other Ethiopians overall. I know of a J1-P58 Arsi Oromo at 23andMe, for example, and Arsi are not exactly known for mixing with Amhara.

I actually looked at the supplemental data last year and if we go off the STR values of these Amhara samples, most seem to be P56 and not P58, this was actually pointed out to me by an Iraqi member so I looked it up afterwards, arguably the authors interpreted these values as P58 because the actual STR values are actually quite close (the difference is subtle but significant).
P58's TMRCA is 10,000 years old at the very least, several of its branches seem to have played an important role in the spread of Semitic languages, the most important being YSC234 (a mastodon compared to the other P58 branches, not unlike R1b-L23), others still seem to have had no such role. Only ancient DNA will disentangle all this IMO.

I agree that we might find J1 in Mesopotamia at an early stage in the aDNA record, but I seriously doubt the striking association between YSC234 as well as other similar branches with Semitic-speaking groups is a happy coincidence so I'd be surprised if such branches were still in Mesopotamia by the late Chalcolithic-EBA period.


I hear you. We'll have to wait on significant more aDNA samples from the whole Middle East to clear the exact migration paths: what we really need is Akkadian y-DNA AND Amorite y-DNA as well. Would be fine to see which subclade of J1 ancient Akkadians were belonging to. As a FGC3723 I desire ancient Yemeni samples as well!

I think we'll start seeing a lot of J1 in the upcoming study on the Chalcolithic Levant, because that's basically the time and place where we should expect J1-YSC234 to show up. Could be wrong though, and I'll be pretty surprised if I am.

vettor
01-07-2017, 11:18 PM
What? Is that how South-Cushitic speakers who began leaving the Horn like 2,000-3,000 years ago carried T-M70 and E-M35 lineages which they spread to people in Southeast Africa? See here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/05/south-cushitic-admixture-in-southeast.html), here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/07/the-savanna-pastoral-neolithic-cushitic.html), here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/08/meager-comments-on-new-haplogroup-e.html) and here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/08/not-everything-cushitic-south-of-horn.html). Or how Somalis, who arguably haven't notably shared a gene pool with (or intermixed with) Habeshas for over 3,000 years have Y-DNA HGs like E-V32 and T-M70 present among them (like Habeshas do (http://ethiohelix.blogspot.ae/2012/11/extensive-doctoral-thesis-on-ethiopian.html))? Is that also why there's really no sign of notable recent West Asian admixture, from an autosomal standpoint, in groups like Somalis unlike with Agaws and Habeshas (see here (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2016/01/the-later-west-eurasian-element-in-agaws.html))? You seem to be under this weird impression that both the autosomal and uniparental West-Eurasian input in the Horn (not that I'm entirely even counting E-M35 within this) is very recent (like within the last 1,500 years) which is absurd and it just highlights how little you know about the region's history and admixture. You need to do some more research... Here's one old piece (http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/07/horn-africans-mixture-between-east.html) of suggested reading from the Sheikh though.

But anyway, this is an off-topic tangent. Lets mostly stick to the subject at hand here: J1 and this paper.



Thanks for the paper.

Another paper
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/

The K2-M70 expansion estimates in Egypt (17.5–13.7 ky; see table 3) are consistent with an early African diaspora. From the present-day African distribution of K2-M70, it is difficult to determine which of the two Africa/Asia migratory passages, if any, prevailed in its southward journey. However, the BATWING expansion estimates of both the Egyptian and Turkish K2-M70 lineages (13.7 ky and 9.0 ky, respectively) are much older than that of Oman (1.6 ky), which suggests that the Levantine corridor may have been used more extensively in the African dissemination of this lineage as well.


I cannot find the ages in your paper for T-M70 ............the ancient Cushitic people as far as I can recall became extinct ~300BC ..........if modern people claim Cushitic ethnicity , well I do not know how
modern terms ,
the term Cushite is primarily a linguistic designation, the standard way of referencing people groups, with an ethno-linguistic designation.

It's like , we speak English but our ethnicity is not English, the modern cushite are other ethnicities who speak cushite ..............but , it matters little on terminology as scholars have different views between each other.

and this madagscan paper with east african included
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0080932

Almagest
01-09-2017, 12:47 AM
I seen your J1 , T-M70 and E-M35 in the horn as no older than 1600 years ago

But have seen E-M35 in northern Egypt as 7000 years ago along with R1-V88 and T-Pages21 and J1

https://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unraveling_the_Prehistoric_Ancestry_of_the_present-day_Inhabitants_of_Northeast_Africa._An_Archaeogen etic_Approach_to_Neolithisation

These are some armchair observations I made recently.

There are quite a few Somalis that I have 4+ STR mismatches (even one with 7, the highest mismatch, although we share the same CTS10314 SNP Tmrca 5000ybp) with at the 12 marker level. Using Moses Walker's Mrca program, 4 mismatches has a Tmrca of 40 generations at 25% probability, or 1200 years using 25 years as a generation. Considering the website states that the numbers are underestimates, 1200 is too close to your 1600 year estimate. Remember this is at 25% odds. At 95% this rises to about 3000 ybp iirc. And this isn't even compared to other populations.

With minority lineages like J&T in somalis, you might expect that there would be less variation in STR result, which is what I found. I can't see them being too different to the E-M35 estimates, perhaps only a bit younger.

vettor
01-09-2017, 05:09 AM
These are some armchair observations I made recently.

There are quite a few Somalis that I have 4+ STR mismatches (even one with 7, the highest mismatch, although we share the same CTS10314 SNP Tmrca 5000ybp) with at the 12 marker level. Using Moses Walker's Mrca program, 4 mismatches has a Tmrca of 40 generations at 25% probability, or 1200 years using 25 years as a generation. Considering the website states that the numbers are underestimates, 1200 is too close to your 1600 year estimate. Remember this is at 25% odds. At 95% this rises to about 3000 ybp iirc. And this isn't even compared to other populations.

With minority lineages like J&T in somalis, you might expect that there would be less variation in STR result, which is what I found. I can't see them being too different to the E-M35 estimates, perhaps only a bit younger.

Less variation in STR result for a small % of the populace with the same haplogroup only means a "founder effect " line ................

you will find that E-M35 is an old line , while the J and T are young lines ..................what are the SNP's of each of these ?............is there a majority of any SNP in any of these haplogroups?

Almagest
01-09-2017, 12:33 PM
Less variation in STR result for a small % of the populace with the same haplogroup only means a "founder effect " line ................

you will find that E-M35 is an old line , while the J and T are young lines ..................what are the SNP's of each of these ?............is there a majority of any SNP in any of these haplogroups?
I have seen one P56 but no one else test downstream of M267 or M184.