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Reza
01-07-2017, 07:11 PM
A friend is testing via yseq - Bengali Muslim (from Sylhet)

Preliminary results show him to be C-M217 > M532 / L1373 on y full, x (P53.1, M93, P62, F2613) with further downstream markers pending.

https://www.yseq.net/images/trees/C-M216_tree.pdf (YSeq C haplogroup tree)

C-M217 seems to be common in Siberian populations including Mongols and spread into Hazaras. Has anyone come across it in other South Asians? Could this represent a Mongol ancestor?

I found this article interesting:

Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3799995/)


" Five of these new markers belong to haplogroup C3 (M386-C3a, M532-C3b, M504-C3b2b, M546-C3b2b, M401-C3b2b1); this haplogroup is characteristic of Mongol expansion and has been described in Hazara"

Whilst this paper (http://www.pnas.org/content/103/4/843.full.pdf?with-ds=yes)showed no evidence of C-M217 in 77 Indian populations from different backgrounds, I came across this that showed C-M217 (xM93, P39, M86) is present in (6/71) Garo and (27/353) Khasi tribal people in Meghalaya, NE India.

Austro-Asiatic Tribes of Northeast India Provide Hitherto Missing Genetic Link between South and Southeast Asia
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2065843/pdf/pone.0001141.pdf)
I haven't across any further subclade identification for these tribal groups, but I'm envisioning that they're not in the same subclade as M532 for the following reasons:

1. Both P39 (at level of F4015) and M86, which have been excluded in the tribal groups, are part of two of the M532 downstream subclades
2. M401, part of the third main downstream marker has been identified as a Mongol ‘star cluster’ YSTR haplotype
3. Vietnamese, Dai, Chinese and one other Bengali sample on yfull (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-M217/), whom I assume would be more closely related to Khasi and other austroasiatics, are actually downstream of a different M217 subclade > F1067.

Any input would be appreciated!

parasar
01-26-2017, 07:28 PM
A friend is testing via yseq - Bengali Muslim (from Sylhet)

Preliminary results show him to be C-M217 > M532 / L1373 on y full, x (P53.1, M93, P62, F2613) with further downstream markers pending.

https://www.yseq.net/images/trees/C-M216_tree.pdf (YSeq C haplogroup tree)

C-M217 seems to be common in Siberian populations including Mongols and spread into Hazaras. Has anyone come across it in other South Asians? Could this represent a Mongol ancestor?

I found this article interesting:

Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3799995/)


" Five of these new markers belong to haplogroup C3 (M386-C3a, M532-C3b, M504-C3b2b, M546-C3b2b, M401-C3b2b1); this haplogroup is characteristic of Mongol expansion and has been described in Hazara"

Whilst this paper (http://www.pnas.org/content/103/4/843.full.pdf?with-ds=yes)showed no evidence of C-M217 in 77 Indian populations from different backgrounds, I came across this that showed C-M217 (xM93, P39, M86) is present in (6/71) Garo and (27/353) Khasi tribal people in Meghalaya, NE India.

Austro-Asiatic Tribes of Northeast India Provide Hitherto Missing Genetic Link between South and Southeast Asia
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2065843/pdf/pone.0001141.pdf)
I haven't across any further subclade identification for these tribal groups, but I'm envisioning that they're not in the same subclade as M532 for the following reasons:

1. Both P39 (at level of F4015) and M86, which have been excluded in the tribal groups, are part of two of the M532 downstream subclades
2. M401, part of the third main downstream marker has been identified as a Mongol ‘star cluster’ YSTR haplotype
3. Vietnamese, Dai, Chinese and one other Bengali sample on yfull (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-M217/), whom I assume would be more closely related to Khasi and other austroasiatics, are actually downstream of a different M217 subclade > F1067.

Any input would be appreciated!

I would say it is eastern Shan rather than Mongol proper.
In Indic literature mongoloid folk are referred to as bhutia, hoon, kirat, khas, etc. One of these - kirat - does seem similar to the Turko-Mongol kerait.

There were actual Turko-Mongol chiefs and soldiers present in that region too.

https://archive.org/details/ferishtashistory01firi

Reza
02-07-2017, 05:13 PM
I would say it is eastern Shan rather than Mongol proper.
In Indic literature mongoloid folk are referred to as bhutia, hoon, kirat, khas, etc. One of these - kirat - does seem similar to the Turko-Mongol kerait.

There were actual Turko-Mongol chiefs and soldiers present in that region too.

https://archive.org/details/ferishtashistory01firi

So Tanzil's final results came through as C-M217 > F7264* which is equivalent to L1373* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-M217/).

He is negative for sister subclade C-F1067, which has all the southern Chinese, Henanese, Vietnamese and Dai samples (also including the one other Bengali sample).
He is also negative for the four L1373 downstream subclades: Y11990, F3918, F1918 and M48.

Given that downstream of L1373 are only central Asians, Siberians and a couple of Europeans (Y11990), and he is a different subclade to the southern Chinese, Dai and Bengali sample, is it more likely that his is indeed a central Asian y haplogroup and not eastern Shan?

If it were central Asian or Siberian, and not austroasiatic in origin, I guess the next question would be how it got to Bengal?

It certainly seems to be a rare haplotype with noone registered on yfull.

If it weren't Turko-Mongol soldiers during the Sultanate period, could be a steppe derived haplogroup?

Not much information about but some discussion here (http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/topic/528718/1/).

parasar
02-07-2017, 05:35 PM
So Tanzil's final results came through as C-M217 > F7264* which is equivalent to L1373* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-M217/).

He is negative for sister subclade C-F1067, which has all the southern Chinese, Henanese, Vietnamese and Dai samples (also including the one other Bengali sample).
He is also negative for the four L1373 downstream subclades: Y11990, F3918, F1918 and M48.

Given that downstream of L1373 are only central Asians, Siberians and a couple of Europeans (Y11990), and he is a different subclade to the southern Chinese, Dai and Bengali sample, is it more likely that his is indeed a central Asian y haplogroup and not eastern Shan?

If it were central Asian or Siberian, and not austroasiatic in origin, I guess the next question would be how it got to Bengal?

It certainly seems to be a rare haplotype with noone registered on yfull.

If it weren't Turko-Mongol soldiers during the Sultanate period, could be a steppe derived haplogroup?

Not much information about but some discussion here (http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/topic/528718/1/).

Interesting. I would say that he may be part of the first inhabitants of the subcontinent in the C1a,b C2a,b,c split time-frame.
There appears to be a western affinity to his line like there is for C1a, eg. sample nep-0172.

Reza
02-07-2017, 05:40 PM
Interesting. I would say that he may be part of the first inhabitants of the subcontinent in the C1a,b C2a,b,c split time-frame.
There appears to be a western affinity to his line like there is for C1a, eg. sample nep-0172.

Sorry, what's the significance of sample nep-0172?

And how do you interpret the western affinity to the line?

By one of the first inhabitants, what time line were you referring to?

parasar
02-07-2017, 06:20 PM
Sorry, what's the significance of sample nep-0172?

And how do you interpret the western affinity to the line?

By one of the first inhabitants, what time line were you referring to?

The oldest Y-C samples I believe are all from Europe.
They are mainly Y-C1a Eg. ~35000ybp GoyetQ116-1 was Y-C1a and mtDNA M - from Belgium.
C1a is present today in Europe and Japan.
nep-0172 from Nepal also happens to be C1a (V20).

One European - ~39000ybp K14 is Y-C1b (F1370) and mtDNA U2. This line is quite common in South Asia and SE.

That is the time-frame I had in mind - about 45000ybp - when C1 (F3393) and C2 (M217) were splitting. The western affinity is remote - in a sense like that of the nep-0172 sample.

Ridhdho
04-23-2018, 05:31 AM
Hi everybody.
I'm a Bengali from Bangladesh (Rangpur). My y Haplogroup is C-M356 (C1b1a1) and mtHg is M3a2. Any comments? Thnx.

lgmayka
04-23-2018, 08:29 AM
My y Haplogroup is C-M356 (C1b1a1) and mtHg is M3a2.
YFull calls this C-K98 (https://yfull.com/tree/C-K98/). But all of the entries on that haplotree are anonymous academic samples, not named customers.

Reza
09-10-2019, 08:16 PM
So some downstream clarification - tested on 23andme v5, and newest subclade is C-F1699, downstream of L1373 < C-M217.

https://yfull.com/tree/C-F1699/

Seems to be a very Central Asian subclade given its geographic spread - Mongol / Turkic?

Not found in neighbouring E Asian groups to Bangladesh - really interesting!

Ebizur
09-12-2019, 12:17 PM
So some downstream clarification - tested on 23andme v5, and newest subclade is C-F1699, downstream of L1373 < C-M217.

https://yfull.com/tree/C-F1699/

Seems to be a very Central Asian subclade given its geographic spread - Mongol / Turkic?

Not found in neighbouring E Asian groups to Bangladesh - really interesting!Does your friend really belong to C-F1699* and not to any of its known subclades?

C-F1699 is quite ancient (TMRCA 14,300 [95% CI 13,000 <-> 15,600] ybp according to YFull YTree v7.08.00), with members spread from Europe (e.g. southwestern Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Ukraine) through central Eurasia (with their range extending at least as far south as Jammu and Kashmir), East Asia (China proper, Manchuria, Korea, Japan), and eastern Siberia to North America (where it may be inferred from the data of Zegura et al. 2004 that, as a percentage of the presumptively pre-Columbian Y-DNA among members of indigenous ethnic groups, subclade C-P39 may account for as much as 50% of Tanana Athabaskans, 31% of Sioux, 21% of Cheyenne, 16% of Apache, and 1.4% of Navajo).

Members of haplogroup Q-M120 (a now typically North Chinese subclade of haplogroup Q whose earliest split is attested by the Y-DNA of a modern Peruvian; much more distant relatives include the Saqqaq specimen from Greenland, some modern Koryaks from Kamchatka, and the Afontova Gora 2 specimen from the Yenisei basin near the present-day city of Krasnoyarsk) and haplogroup C-M48 (which is one extremely widespread and frequently observed subclade of C-F1699, although most of this expansion seems to have been effected by members of the very young C-M77+/M86+ subclades of C-M48, who must have been involved in the formation of the (micro-)Altaic Sprachbund) have been observed as far south as Tibet and Bhutan.

I wonder whether your friend's patrilineal ancestor has entered the Subcontinent via the northwest (cf. C-Y11990* in id:YF02808 from Jammu and Kashmir) or via the northeast (cf. C-M217 among Garo and Khasi people in Meghalaya).

Fornarino et al. (2009) found C-M217 in 3.8% (1/26) of a sample of non-Tharu Hindus from the Terai of Nepal.

Gayden et al. (2007) found C-M217(xM77, M93) in 2.6% (2/77) of a sample of the general (Indo-European-speaking) population of Kathmandu and 2.6% (4/156) of a sample from Tibet.

As noted in the original post in this thread, Reddy et al. (2007) found C-M217(xM86, P39, M93) in 8.5% (6/71) of a sample of Garos, who primarily inhabit the Garo Hills in the western half of Meghalaya, and in 7.6% (27/353) of a pool of samples of eight Khasian tribes from the eastern half of Meghalaya (6/18 = 33.3% Nongtrai from the West Khasi Hills, 10/60 = 16.7% Lyngngam from the West Khasi Hills, 2/29 = 6.9% War-Khasi from the East Khasi Hills, 3/44 = 6.8% Pnar from the Jaintia Hills, 1/19 = 5.3% War-Jaintia from the Jaintia Hills, 3/87 = 3.4% Khynriam from the East Khasi Hills, 2/64 = 3.1% Maram from the West Khasi Hills, and 0/32 Bhoi from Ri-Bhoi District).

Reza
05-29-2020, 11:53 AM
Does your friend really belong to C-F1699* and not to any of its known subclades?

C-F1699 is quite ancient (TMRCA 14,300 [95% CI 13,000 <-> 15,600] ybp according to YFull YTree v7.08.00), with members spread from Europe (e.g. southwestern Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Ukraine) through central Eurasia (with their range extending at least as far south as Jammu and Kashmir), East Asia (China proper, Manchuria, Korea, Japan), and eastern Siberia to North America (where it may be inferred from the data of Zegura et al. 2004 that, as a percentage of the presumptively pre-Columbian Y-DNA among members of indigenous ethnic groups, subclade C-P39 may account for as much as 50% of Tanana Athabaskans, 31% of Sioux, 21% of Cheyenne, 16% of Apache, and 1.4% of Navajo).

Members of haplogroup Q-M120 (a now typically North Chinese subclade of haplogroup Q whose earliest split is attested by the Y-DNA of a modern Peruvian; much more distant relatives include the Saqqaq specimen from Greenland, some modern Koryaks from Kamchatka, and the Afontova Gora 2 specimen from the Yenisei basin near the present-day city of Krasnoyarsk) and haplogroup C-M48 (which is one extremely widespread and frequently observed subclade of C-F1699, although most of this expansion seems to have been effected by members of the very young C-M77+/M86+ subclades of C-M48, who must have been involved in the formation of the (micro-)Altaic Sprachbund) have been observed as far south as Tibet and Bhutan.

I wonder whether your friend's patrilineal ancestor has entered the Subcontinent via the northwest (cf. C-Y11990* in id:YF02808 from Jammu and Kashmir) or via the northeast (cf. C-M217 among Garo and Khasi people in Meghalaya).

Fornarino et al. (2009) found C-M217 in 3.8% (1/26) of a sample of non-Tharu Hindus from the Terai of Nepal.

Gayden et al. (2007) found C-M217(xM77, M93) in 2.6% (2/77) of a sample of the general (Indo-European-speaking) population of Kathmandu and 2.6% (4/156) of a sample from Tibet.

As noted in the original post in this thread, Reddy et al. (2007) found C-M217(xM86, P39, M93) in 8.5% (6/71) of a sample of Garos, who primarily inhabit the Garo Hills in the western half of Meghalaya, and in 7.6% (27/353) of a pool of samples of eight Khasian tribes from the eastern half of Meghalaya (6/18 = 33.3% Nongtrai from the West Khasi Hills, 10/60 = 16.7% Lyngngam from the West Khasi Hills, 2/29 = 6.9% War-Khasi from the East Khasi Hills, 3/44 = 6.8% Pnar from the Jaintia Hills, 1/19 = 5.3% War-Jaintia from the Jaintia Hills, 3/87 = 3.4% Khynriam from the East Khasi Hills, 2/64 = 3.1% Maram from the West Khasi Hills, and 0/32 Bhoi from Ri-Bhoi District).

Sorry I had missed this post Ebizur - very informative and helpful.

To clarify:

C-M217 (https://yfull.com/tree/C-M217/) (C2) > C-L1373 (C2a) > C-F1699 (C2a1a) was positive through 23andme (his father got tested on v5) - I don't think yseq tests specifically for F1699 but does test upstream and downstream.

The four major downstream markers from F1699 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-F1699/) have all come back negative from yseq (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=28410):

1. F3918 (C2a1a1) which includes P39 (C2a1a1a)
2. M48 (C2a1a2) which includes M86 (C2a12a2a)
3. M504 / F3770 (C2a1a3) which includes M401 (C2a1a3a)
4. Y11990 / F1183 (C2a1a4)

So presumably he is either C-F1699* or a downstream marker that is not yet recognised. There is another sub-branch on yfull C-Y176542 (x Y11990) which has a korean and japanese sample on it but I can't find it on the ISOGG 2019-2020 tree.

As per above, he obviously cannot belong to any sister branches to C-F1699 (C2a) or C-L1373 (C2a) such as eg C-F1067 (C2b) for which he is negative, and it's downstream M93 (C2b1b1b4).

Now, intuitively, it would make much more sense for his haplogroup to be shared with the Khasi tribal groups in Meghalaya. He is from northern Sylhet (Sunamganj)- from the plains bordering the Meghalaya hills, and historically, Khasi tribal groups were more prevalent in northern Sylhet before being pushed back into the hills by the Mughals and British. Given the prevalence of East Asian mtdna markers, and other AA/TB y-dna haplogroups in the region, alot of these tribal groups would have adopted and mixed into the Bengali cultural identity in the past 700 years.

My only reticence with tying into the Reddy et al 2007 study identifying C-M217(xM86, P39, M93) in Meghalayan tribals - in 8.5% (6/71) of Garos and 7.6% (27/353) of Khasis, is that the C-M217* picked up only excludes 2 of the 4 branches downstream of Tanzil's C-F1699 ie M48 (through M86) and F3918 (through P39), and only 1 branch downstream of sister branch C-F1067 (C2b) > C-F845 (C2b1b) ie M93.

The last observation is important, because downstream of C-F1067 (xM93) is a major branch C-Z1300 (C2b1a) > C-K700 > C-Z1300 (https://yfull.com/tree/C-F3777*/) - where we find the only other Bangladeshi sample and various other Chinese samples.

Tanzil is negative for C-F1067, though the Khasi/Garo samples could in theory belong to that branch.

Interesting case - on balance, Tanzil's C-F1699 should probably belong to the same subclade as the Khasi samples (historically / geographically) but I don't think it's clear cut given the only other Bangladeshi sample being C-F1067 and the lack of downstream marker testing from that 2007 paper. The possibility of a NW entry point remains, but in the absence of C-F1699 downstream clades, he doesn't share with anyone else to clarify this further.