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J Man
01-11-2017, 06:38 PM
Hello All,

This is kind of a continuation on about a thread I created a while back about a 37 marker match that I have with an Arab man. My cousin also matches with this man slightly closer at 37 markers but I am waiting for his 111 marker upgrade so for now I will just be talking about my match/mismatch with this Arab man. My direct paternal line comes from the Calabria region of Italy as I already mentioned and he comes from Saudi Arabia. He and I have a genetic distance of 4 at 37 markers but now that he has upgraded to 111 markers he and I now have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers. Family Tree DNA says that two men who have more than a genetic distance of 10 at 111 markers do not share a MRCA within a ''genealogical'' time frame but their relationship is ''historical'' or ''anthropological''. So considering now that this Arab man and I have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers how far back in time approximately may he and I share a MRCA?

RCO
01-11-2017, 08:48 PM
I would say far more than 2000 years at least.

rms2
01-12-2017, 12:07 AM
Hello All,

This is kind of a continuation on about a thread I created a while back about a 37 marker match that I have with an Arab man. My cousin also matches with this man slightly closer at 37 markers but I am waiting for his 111 marker upgrade so for now I will just be talking about my match/mismatch with this Arab man. My direct paternal line comes from the Calabria region of Italy as I already mentioned and he comes from Saudi Arabia. He and I have a genetic distance of 4 at 37 markers but now that he has upgraded to 111 markers he and I now have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers. Family Tree DNA says that two men who have more than a genetic distance of 10 at 111 markers do not share a MRCA within a ''genealogical'' time frame but their relationship is ''historical'' or ''anthropological''. So considering now that this Arab man and I have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers how far back in time approximately may he and I share a MRCA?

I agree with RCO. This "match" is virtually meaningless for you.

If you recall, I said before that you would see the spread increasing beyond 37 markers. It really has.

Lugus
01-12-2017, 06:35 AM
Family Tree DNA says that two men who have more than a genetic distance of 10 at 111 markers do not share a MRCA within a ''genealogical'' time frame but their relationship is ''historical'' or ''anthropological''. So considering now that this Arab man and I have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers how far back in time approximately may he and I share a MRCA?

A historical match is a match and I find those much more interesting than genealogical ones (frankly, I don't care much about who my ancestors were in the last 500 years). If your MRCA lived in the times of the Roman Empire, that's fascinating. If you want to know more, get yourselves Big Ys and upload the data to YFull. Those are the samples I'm always looking for.

rms2
01-12-2017, 12:13 PM
A historical match is a match . . .

Not much. At that distance, they may not even belong to the same subclade. Such "matches" are so remote they really aren't much more than an indication that the two men belong to the same y haplogroup.

Just my opinion.

Lugus
01-12-2017, 03:24 PM
Not much. At that distance, they may not even belong to the same subclade. Such "matches" are so remote they really aren't much more than an indication that the two men belong to the same y haplogroup.

Just my opinion.

The only way to know is to do Big Ys. My closest SNP match in historical times (900 ybp according to YFull) and in the same subclade is GD 6 at 37 markers, 2 SNPs closer than a GD 4 match.

rms2
01-12-2017, 06:35 PM
The only way to know is to do Big Ys. My closest SNP match in historical times (900 ybp according to YFull) and in the same subclade is GD 6 at 37 markers, 2 SNPs closer than a GD 4 match.

That demonstrates that haplotype neighbors at that distance at 37 markers aren't reliable matches. I have a 37-marker "match" (33/37) who is R1b-U106, so not even in the same subclade I am in.

I'm not that interested in remote matches unless one of them turns out to come via ancient y-dna.

Lugus
01-12-2017, 07:22 PM
That demonstrates that haplotype neighbors at that distance at 37 markers aren't reliable matches. I have a 37-marker "match" (33/37) who is R1b-U106, so not even in the same subclade I am in.

I'm not that interested in remote matches unless one of them turns out to come via ancient y-dna.

Yes, you definitely have to be careful with STRs, SNPs always have the last word.

MitchellSince1893
01-12-2017, 10:39 PM
A historical match is a match and I find those much more interesting than genealogical ones (frankly, I don't care much about who my ancestors were in the last 500 years). If your MRCA lived in the times of the Roman Empire, that's fascinating. If you want to know more, get yourselves Big Ys and upload the data to YFull. Those are the samples I'm always looking for.

I have a similar situation. My father's closest STR match above 25 markers is a GD of 6 at 37 markers, GD=9 at 67 markers, and GD=10 at 111 markers. This same match is also my father's closest SNP match. According to Yfull our MRCA lived around 1000 years ago. Using the http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html tool it says there's a 50% chance our MRCA lived within the last 540 years, and 95% chance it was within the last 840 years.

This match has a 37 marker match at GD=1 (GD=6 with my father), who is on our subclade FGC12384/FGC12385. Also these two matches share a chromosome (chr) 8 segment with each other (my father doesn't have any autosomal matches with either man)

So we're in the gray area...just outside the genealogical timeframe yet still relatively recent.

I've spent a lot of time of late attempting to figure out how these two men above are related. This effort has produced results. Using FTDNA family finder matches and gedmatch, I've identified several other matches that share this same segment of chr 8.

Using this info, I searched gedmatch gedcom files, FTDNA, and ancestry.com to see how many of the chr 8 matches have family trees. I then take their trees and expand them as far back as I can, primarily using ancestry.com's database and sometimes google.

At first I didn't have much success, so I expanded my search to include a neighboring chr 8 segment that some of the above matches shared my with father's matches and other men. When I did this, I found 4 men in a neighboring chr 8 segment who's ancestors went back to the same husband and wife in the late 1600s. I then found a 5th match that overlaped both the segment of interest and the neighboring segment that went back to the parents of the husband above. This technique isn't for the faint of heart as it's some serious in the trenches, retina frying hours in front of the computer for a couple of weeks.

I'm taking a break on it now, but the goal is to finally connect my father's two closest SNP and STR matches to each other. I'm thinking their shared y-dna ancestor lived in the 1500s. If I do succeed in this, then there's no guarantee I will be able to connect this ancestor to the one my father shares with these two men that lived in the ~1200s +/-200. But maybe I'll get lucky.

I'm hoping, against the odds, that our shared ancestor was high enough up on the food chain to have had a surname longer than the typical male, for example a Norman line that came over circa 1066.

Lugus
01-13-2017, 07:33 AM
I have a similar situation. My father's closest STR match above 25 markers is a GD of 6 at 37 markers, GD=9 at 67 markers, and GD=10 at 111 markers. This same match is also my father's closest SNP match. According to Yfull our MRCA lived around 1000 years ago. Using the http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html tool it says there's a 50% chance our MRCA lived within the last 540 years, and 95% chance it was within the last 840 years.

This match has a 37 marker match at GD=1 (GD=6 with my father), who is on our subclade FGC12384/FGC12385. Also these two matches share a chromosome (chr) 8 segment with each other (my father doesn't have any autosomal matches with either man)

So we're in the gray area...just outside the genealogical timeframe yet still relatively recent.

I've spent a lot of time of late attempting to figure out how these two men above are related. This effort has produced results. Using FTDNA family finder matches and gedmatch, I've identified several other matches that share this same segment of chr 8.

Using this info, I searched gedmatch gedcom files, FTDNA family trees, and ancestry.com for family trees to see how many of the chr 8 matches have trees. I then take their trees and expand them as far back as I can, primarily using ancestry.com's database and sometimes google.

At first I didn't have much success, so I expanded my search to include neighboring chr 8 segment that some of the above matches shared my father's matches and other men. When I did this, I found 4 men in a neighboring chr 8 segment who's ancestors went back to the same husband and wife in the late 1600s. I then found a 5th match that overlaped both the segment of interest and the neighboring segment that went back to the parents of the husband above. This technique isn't for the faint of heart as it's some serious in the trenches, retina frying hours in front of the computer for a couple of weeks.

I'm taking a break on it now, but the goal is to finally connect my father's two closest SNP and STR matches to each other. I'm thinking their shared y-dna ancestor lived in the 1500s. If I do succeed in this, then there's no guarantee I will be able to connect this ancestor to the one my father shares with these two men that lived in the 1100s. But maybe I'll get lucky.




I'm hoping on the off chance that maybe our shared ancestor was high enough up on the food chain to have had a surname longer than the typical male, for example a Norman line that came over circa 1066.

Impressive work. I guess that's the way to do it. I've also noticed the surname of my GD 6 match popping up in Family Finder.

J Man
01-13-2017, 04:31 PM
Okay I did some investigating into this ''match'' of mine with this Arab man and compared our haplotypes. I actually count a genetic distance of 23 at 111 markers not 19 since there are a number of two step mutations in addition to the 1 steps. Yes we do mismatch on 19 markers but a few of them are two step mutations instead of just 1 step....Here are the markers that we differ at....DYS439 1 step, DYS437 1 step, DYS449 1 step, DYS456 1 step, DYS537 1 step, DYS557 2 steps, DYS446 2 steps, DYS710 2 steps, DYS485 1 step, DYS714 1 step, DYS716 1 step, DYS494 1 step, DYS533 two steps, DYS712 1 step. DYS504 1 step, DYS635 1 step, DYS497 1 step, DYS434 1 step and DYS461 1 step....That is a total of 23 mutations.

For some reason though the number 19 shows up on this program when I compare our haplotypes. I wonder why? Marker mismatch and not true genetic distance?

http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html

vettor
01-13-2017, 05:29 PM
Hello All,

This is kind of a continuation on about a thread I created a while back about a 37 marker match that I have with an Arab man. My cousin also matches with this man slightly closer at 37 markers but I am waiting for his 111 marker upgrade so for now I will just be talking about my match/mismatch with this Arab man. My direct paternal line comes from the Calabria region of Italy as I already mentioned and he comes from Saudi Arabia. He and I have a genetic distance of 4 at 37 markers but now that he has upgraded to 111 markers he and I now have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers. Family Tree DNA says that two men who have more than a genetic distance of 10 at 111 markers do not share a MRCA within a ''genealogical'' time frame but their relationship is ''historical'' or ''anthropological''. So considering now that this Arab man and I have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers how far back in time approximately may he and I share a MRCA?

You where joined over 20000 years ago ..............based on myself being told that a 5 GD at 37 markers is over 1500 years old

vettor
01-13-2017, 05:33 PM
Okay I did some investigating into this ''match'' of mine with this Arab man and compared our haplotypes. I actually count a genetic distance of 23 at 111 markers not 19 since there are a number of two step mutations in addition to the 1 steps. Yes we do mismatch on 19 markers but a few of them are two step mutations instead of just 1 step....Here are the markers that we differ at....DYS439 1 step, DYS437 1 step, DYS449 1 step, DYS456 1 step, DYS537 1 step, DYS557 2 steps, DYS446 2 steps, DYS710 2 steps, DYS485 1 step, DYS714 1 step, DYS716 1 step, DYS494 1 step, DYS533 two steps, DYS712 1 step. DYS504 1 step, DYS635 1 step, DYS497 1 step, DYS434 1 step and DYS461 1 step....That is a total of 23 mutations.

For some reason though the number 19 shows up on this program when I compare our haplotypes. I wonder why? Marker mismatch and not true genetic distance?

http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html

Many "professionals" say to firstly ignore DYS446 and then ignore the fast mutating DYS ...............only check the other DYS

Ftdna projects have a colour code for fast and slow DYS

J Man
01-19-2017, 03:01 AM
Okay so at 111 markers this Arab ''match'' of mine has a marker mismatch of 19 with me and a genetic distance of 23. Again here are the markers that we differ on. DYS439 1 step, DYS437 1 step, DYS449 1 step, DYS456 1 step, DYS537 1 step, DYS557 2 steps, DYS446 2 steps, DYS710 2 steps, DYS485 1 step, DYS714 1 step, DYS716 1 step, DYS494 1 step, DYS533 two steps, DYS712 1 step. DYS504 1 step, DYS635 1 step, DYS497 1 step, DYS434 1 step and DYS461 1 step....Here are our haplotypes below.


Mine: 12 23 14 10 13-17 11 17 10 12 11 28 18 9-9 11 11 26 15 21 30 12-13-14-15 10 10 19-22 16 14 17 16 37-38 11 9 11 7 14-14 8 12 10 8 10 9 12 17-17 14 10 12 12 17 8 12 22 21 15 12 11 13 11 12 12 11 35 17 8 14 12 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 9 13 11 10 11 11 31 12 13 22 14 11 11 28 15 19 10 21 15 11 14 24 12 22 19 9 15 16 9 13 11



His (Arab's): 12 23 14 10 13-17 11 17 11 12 11 28 18 9-9 11 11 26 14 21 29 12-13-14-15 10 10 19-22 15 14 17 16 37-38 11 9 11 7 14-14 8 11 10 8 10 9 12 17-17 12 10 12 12 17 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 12 12 11 37 16 8 14 12 26 26 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 13 22 14 11 11 29 15 19 10 21 16 11 14 24 12 21 19 9 16 16 10 14 11




So with all of this information is it safe to conclude with great confidence that our MRCA (direct paternal line most recent common ancestor) lived more than 600 years ago?

MitchellSince1893
01-26-2017, 12:58 AM
...
For some reason though the number 19 shows up on this program when I compare our haplotypes. I wonder why? Marker mismatch and not true genetic distance?

http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html

There are a couple of schools of thought on that. Some treat each step as a unique mutation, while others assume that 2 or more steps in the STR often occur as a single event. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

On my previously mentioned closest match (MRCA 800-1000 years ago), at DYF395s1 and DYF395s2 he has the standard modal R-U152 values of 15-16. My father as 11-15. Now one could assume that 5 step change in this STR was the sum of five different events; or that it happened in one event i.e. a 5 step change all at once.

I would tend to assume the later in this situation because there probably isn't enough time for 5 events in that time frame.

MitchellSince1893
01-26-2017, 01:31 AM
...So with all of this information is it safe to conclude with great confidence that our MRCA (direct paternal line most recent common ancestor) lived more than 600 years ago?

I know I'm repeating myself but...

Using my data as a reference:

My GD=10 at 111 markers match is proven to be on my same SNP line. The 3 samples on this line have an estimated yfull MRCA date range between 733 and 1247 years ago, with the average being 977 years ago
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC12384/

Using the McGee tool set at 95% confidence (default is 50%) gives a MRCA date of 840 years ago.

So with the combined data from SNPs and STRs, I'm relatively confident that our shared paternal ancestor lived sometime in the last 1000 years.

However, without shared SNPs to back up the STR data, as the GD increases, there is a good chance STR dating methods are underestimating the age; in some cases dramatically underestimating.

For example: Two SNPs up from my current Terminal SNP branch is a 111 marker match with a GD of 21. He happens to be on the same branch as Abraham Lincoln...in fact his last name is Lincoln.

According to Yfull's SNP dating our MRCA lived 3700 years ago. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3140/

Yet the McGee STR tool at 50% says our MRCA live 1260 years ago and at 95% says he lived 1770 years ago. So ~2000 year difference between STR dating and SNP dating. Hence the reason I tend to trust SNP dating once you get beyond GD=10 at 111 markers

So in my situation with proven SNP matches,
A 111 marker GD=10 is a MRCA living ~1000 years ago
A 111 marker GD=21 is a MRCA living ~3700 years ago.

Based on the above, if you have a proven shared SNP match with your 111 marker GD=19 to 23, then you could possibly have a common ancestor within that last 2000 years, but I doubt it would be in the last 1000 years. I would tend to think it would be more like in the last 3000 to 4000 years.

However, if you don't share any recent SNPs, then this 111 marker "match" may be in the 5000 to 6000 years ago range.
I have U106 marker matches that are GD=20 and our shared P310 MRCA would have lived ~5000 years ago. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/

In other words it may be a random coincidence that you 2 match.

J Man
01-26-2017, 03:00 AM
I know I'm repeating myself but...

Using my data as a reference:

My GD=10 at 111 markers match is proven to be on my same SNP line. The 3 samples on this line have an estimated yfull MRCA date range between 733 and 1247 years ago, with the average being 977 years ago
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC12384/

Using the McGee tool set at 95% confidence (default is 50%) gives a MRCA date of 840 years ago.

So with the combined data from SNPs and STRs, I'm relatively confident that our shared paternal ancestor lived sometime in the last 1000 years.

However, without shared SNPs to back up the STR data, as the GD increases, there is a good chance STR dating methods are underestimating the age; in some cases dramatically underestimating.

For example: Two SNPs up from my current Terminal SNP branch is a 111 marker match with a GD of 21. He happens to be on the same branch as Abraham Lincoln...in fact his last name is Lincoln.

According to Yfull's SNP dating our MRCA lived 3700 years ago. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3140/

Yet the McGee STR tool at 50% says our MRCA live 1260 years ago and at 95% says he lived 1770 years ago. So ~2000 year difference between STR dating and SNP dating. Hence the reason I tend to trust SNP dating once you get beyond GD=10 at 111 markers

So in my situation with proven SNP matches,
A 111 marker GD=10 is a MRCA living ~1000 years ago
A 111 marker GD=21 is a MRCA living ~3700 years ago.

Based on the above, if you have a proven shared SNP match with your 111 marker GD=19 to 23, then you could possibly have a common ancestor within that last 2000 years, but I doubt it would be in the last 1000 years. I would tend to think it would be more like in the last 3000 to 4000 years.

However, if you don't share any recent SNPs, then this 111 marker "match" may be in the 5000 to 6000 years ago range.
I have U106 marker matches that are GD=20 and our shared P310 MRCA would have lived ~5000 years ago. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/

In other words it may be a random coincidence that you 2 match.

This is very helpful thank you!

J Man
02-16-2017, 01:37 AM
My cousins' 111 marker results have come in. He and this Arab man mismatch on 18 markers. Here are the differences between his and the Arab mans' haplotypes....DYS439 1 step, DYS437 1 step, DYS449 1 step, DYS537 1 step, DYS557 1 step, DYS446 2 step, DYS710 2 step, DYS485 1 step, DYS714 1 step, DYS716 1 step, DYS494 1 step, DYS533 2 step, DYS712 1 step, DYS504 1 step, DYS635 1 step, DYS497 1 step, DYS434 1 step and DYS461 1 step.

MitchellSince1893
02-16-2017, 04:22 AM
My cousins' 111 marker results have come in...

Do you know what batch he was in? Got a 111 test in batch 712 I'm waiting on.

J Man
02-18-2017, 03:03 AM
Do you know what batch he was in? Got a 111 test in batch 712 I'm waiting on.

I think that he was in 712 yeah.

MitchellSince1893
02-18-2017, 03:14 AM
I think that he was in 712 yeah.

Thanks...I'm still waiting on my 712 batch results,,,maybe this weekend.

J Man
02-19-2017, 01:48 PM
Thanks...I'm still waiting on my 712 batch results,,,maybe this weekend.

Yes hopefully.

J Man
09-01-2017, 04:36 AM
Well kit # 330900 Al-Shomali/Al-Shoumali's BigY results have come in and his results have been uploaded to YFull. It looks like the most recent SNP he shares with me is J-YP879...He shares one more SNP further downstream from J-YP879 with an Armenian man that is in our haplotype cluster called J-Y31162 but I do not share J-Y31162 with either of them. Here is the YFull tree that we are on...I am YF03165 and Al Shomali/Al-Shoumali is YF10242.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC15895/?fref=gc&dti=543045542563343