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View Full Version : Welsh Y-DNA and claim of 25% descending from rulers of the Middle Age



Romilius
01-15-2017, 11:39 AM
Good morning,

when I was surfing the Net, I found this article about Welsh genetics: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/dna-survey-reveals-25-welsh-8308111

I ask if someone knows something more about the Y-DNA haplogroup markers of those 25% Welsh people descending from 20 rulers and notables.

Thanks in advance to everybody.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-15-2017, 12:54 PM
In modern Wales there are a lot of people who weren't originally of Welsh Y descent.
Having said that, before the industrial revolution, the population of Wales was less than 500,000 and if you go far enough back a lot of people could be descended from a small number of individuals, as well as lots of other people of course. I think most people would regard the emphasis on "Kings and "Warlords" as more a marketing tool than anything else. John

01-15-2017, 01:31 PM
Good morning,

when I was surfing the Net, I found this article about Welsh genetics: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/dna-survey-reveals-25-welsh-8308111

I ask if someone knows something more about the Y-DNA haplogroup markers of those 25% Welsh people descending from 20 rulers and notables.

Thanks in advance to everybody.

Im sceptical of that claim to be honest, and I certainly do not seem to fit into that Ydna profile.

Romilius
01-15-2017, 02:34 PM
Thanks for answers. I'm also sure that the words used in the article are emotional. But I think that a little bit of truth must be present: probably, some of those 25% people can trace their origins documentally until a middle age chieftain. I see that the article is totally vague about all: it throws a rock, but it hides its hand.

jdean
01-15-2017, 04:43 PM
Good morning,

when I was surfing the Net, I found this article about Welsh genetics: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/dna-survey-reveals-25-welsh-8308111

I ask if someone knows something more about the Y-DNA haplogroup markers of those 25% Welsh people descending from 20 rulers and notables.

Thanks in advance to everybody.

Sounds like a Moffat sound bite, ie more BDNA headline grabbing

Saetro
01-15-2017, 07:55 PM
Good morning,

when I was surfing the Net, I found this article about Welsh genetics: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/dna-survey-reveals-25-welsh-8308111

I ask if someone knows something more about the Y-DNA haplogroup markers of those 25% Welsh people descending from 20 rulers and notables.

Thanks in advance to everybody.

Yes, it is marketing hype.
There is an old saying that among the ancestors of every king is a ploughman, and among the ancestors of every ploughman a king.
Jane Austen said something to the effect that women marry up, men marry down.
Overall there is some mobility.
Generally, the better off have more children - despite occasional purges of nobles to root out actual or possible threats and rivals.
Some of the later-born spare males have to take on lowlier roles to make a living.
Some of this may be seen from the children of Queen Victoria - or even the present sovereign.
Something like 30% of the English are said to descend from Edward III, but that is aDNA not just Y.

rms2
01-15-2017, 08:40 PM
I think they're talking about L371. I forget the BritainsDNA S nomenclature equivalent. They made a big deal about it in one of those Wales Cymru DNA tv shows.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-16-2017, 08:06 AM
I think we forget how small, relatively speaking, the population of Great Britain was in the past. I was watching a TV programme recently which said the UK population during the English Civil War which isn't that long ago, was less than 5 million, the point they were making was that relative to the population, it had a bigger impact than World War One
Apparently around 1066 the population of England was just over a million, so I would think the population of Wales would be around 100,000 maybe less (?) and there have been a lot of wars, plagues, etc. since then and we descend from the survivors. I think it's quite possible that the pre-Norman population of Wales could trace back to a relatively small number of "Y" ancestors maybe? The further you go back, the smaller the population. John

Romilius
01-16-2017, 09:56 AM
I think we forget how small, relatively speaking, the population of Great Britain was in the past. I was watching a TV programme recently which said the UK population during the English Civil War which isn't that long ago, was less than 5 million, the point they were making was that relative to the population, it had a bigger impact than World War One
Apparently around 1066 the population of England was just over a million, so I would think the population of Wales would be around 100,000 maybe less (?) and there have been a lot of wars, plagues, etc. since then and we descend from the survivors. I think it's quite possible that the pre-Norman population of Wales could trace back to a relatively small number of "Y" ancestors maybe? The further you go back, the smaller the population. John

I think the same thing... But I'm curious: to state that the 25% of a population descends from 20 cca notables of the Middle Age, we must have at least two different people with genealogical records until that period and that their paternal line branched more or less in that period from a notable among those 20 men. From the article, it seems they are speaking about Y-DNA haplogroup markers.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-16-2017, 01:54 PM
I think the same thing... But I'm curious: to state that the 25% of a population descends from 20 cca notables of the Middle Age, we must have at least two different people with genealogical records until that period and that their paternal line branched more or less in that period from a notable among those 20 men. From the article, it seems they are speaking about Y-DNA haplogroup markers.

I would be more convinced if we had DNA from these "Kings and Warlords" :) . I guess the assumption is that because many people share the same Y DNA they must be descended from a small number of powerful men, but that is just an assumption. John

rms2
01-16-2017, 02:32 PM
As I recall without going back and watching the video again, Wales/CymruDNA (i.e., BritainsDNA) insinuated (or perhaps came right out and said) that L371 could be the "King Arthur" y-dna SNP.

Now that can't be right, because I am a y-dna line descendant of King Arthur! ;););) :behindsofa:

Dubhthach
01-16-2017, 04:04 PM
I think we forget how small, relatively speaking, the population of Great Britain was in the past. I was watching a TV programme recently which said the UK population during the English Civil War which isn't that long ago, was less than 5 million, the point they were making was that relative to the population, it had a bigger impact than World War One
Apparently around 1066 the population of England was just over a million, so I would think the population of Wales would be around 100,000 maybe less (?) and there have been a lot of wars, plagues, etc. since then and we descend from the survivors. I think it's quite possible that the pre-Norman population of Wales could trace back to a relatively small number of "Y" ancestors maybe? The further you go back, the smaller the population. John

I think I was watching the same program, they were talking about firearms. The point about impact of English Civil war is quite good one, particulary in context of wider "War of three Kingdoms" or as we call it in Ireland the "Cromwellian Conquest of Ireland". William Petty for example who carried out the Down Survey in 1655/56 reckoned that Ireland lost 40% of it's population in period 1641-1653. It's more probable that it was lower than this say between 20 and 40%, but still massive toll that had greater population impact than the Great Famine percentage wise. That's one of the reasons that Cromwell is probably the most hated figure in Irish history.

rms2
01-16-2017, 04:33 PM
. . . That's one of the reasons that Cromwell is probably the most hated figure in Irish history.

And he isn't exactly just too popular among the Stewart members of the DF41 Project either! ;)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-16-2017, 05:48 PM
I suppose losses through disease or famine would be spread around the population, although with the wealthiest not being affected by famine so much , but I suppose war losses would be mainly male, whether it had more of an impact on specific Y Groups or regions, I don't know. The Welsh were involved in a lot of Wars for a small country. John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-16-2017, 08:14 PM
One of my Welsh male ancestors Walter Lloyd early 1700's had at least 6 sons and 5 daughters all of them survived as far as I know. Through DNA I've made contact with descendants in America and Australia. How many more are out there I don't know, but it could be a lot.
On my Howells Y line, albeit U106 on the Herefordshire border, also around the turn of the 18th Century, William Howells had at least 7 sons and 2 daughters. One son died young.
They were both just farming stock as far as I know. Maybe you don't need to be Kings and Warlords to have a lot of descendants, just healthy genes and a bit of luck. :) John

Dubhthach
01-17-2017, 10:01 AM
I suppose losses through disease or famine would be spread around the population, although with the wealthiest not being affected by famine so much , but I suppose war losses would be mainly male, whether it had more of an impact on specific Y Groups or regions, I don't know. The Welsh were involved in a lot of Wars for a small country. John

It depends really, Scorch Earth tactics as used in Ireland tends to affect the whole population, of course you had same situation during the Tudor conquest. What's important though to remember is that after the war you had mass transfer of land ownership. The result was breaking up of Irish landowning elite by seizure of estates (and transplantation of landowners to new estates in Connacht etc.) this had major effect of basically breaking the continuity that had existed with land holding for the previous 500 years and creating of Anglo-Irish landholding ascendancy.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegalstrongs/mapcromw.gif

Dubhthach
01-17-2017, 10:03 AM
And he isn't exactly just too popular among the Stewart members of the DF41 Project either! ;)

There's pub in Galway called the "King's head" with a establishment date of 1649 -- now name/date is marketing spin. But it's based on fact that the specific building was granted to a Cromwellian adventure after siege of Galway in 1651/52. Turns out that he was the guy who executed Charles I ;)

Saetro
01-17-2017, 11:33 PM
I think we forget how small, relatively speaking, the population of Great Britain was in the past. I was watching a TV programme recently which said the UK population during the English Civil War which isn't that long ago, was less than 5 million, the point they were making was that relative to the population, it had a bigger impact than World War One
Apparently around 1066 the population of England was just over a million, so I would think the population of Wales would be around 100,000 maybe less (?) and there have been a lot of wars, plagues, etc. since then and we descend from the survivors. I think it's quite possible that the pre-Norman population of Wales could trace back to a relatively small number of "Y" ancestors maybe? The further you go back, the smaller the population. John

Scotland ditto, but perhaps regionalised.

Something similar happens with colonial settlements.
First in tend to get the land and set up more descendant lines than those with other occupations.
As they are more recent it is often possible to track some of the lines other than yDNA.
It is surprising how successful (in numbers) they can be.
Except some of the very rich, who decided that having large families was too vulgar and somehow limited the number of their offspring.

This was very pronounced in some country towns 50 years ago, when it seemed that almost all of the local businesses could be in one or two family names.

This has only been easy to see due to the many family history books on descendants of certain surnames in Australia, particularly flourishing from around 1977 to 2007.

Saetro
01-17-2017, 11:47 PM
And he isn't exactly just too popular among the Stewart members of the DF41 Project either! ;)

The Stewarts apparently did not bother to insist on BMD parish registers for St Buryan (in Cornwall), responsibility for which bypassed the bishops and answered directly to the crown. Oliver Cromwell's administration introduced them around 1653, and some my lines surfaced at last.
It's an ill wind that blows no one any good.

On the other hand, he sent Irish, Scottish and English to the Caribbean to die in slavery on sugar plantations. (Yes folks, the first slaves there were white.) This influenced Scottish attitudes to forcible transportation into the 1800s.