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Mikewww
05-28-2013, 05:13 PM
I inserted CTS2457 into a box under DF13 as appears quite probably to be another DF13 subclade, which is what David R has pointed out.
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L21-Tree

I can find three CTS2457+ people based on David's chart. Let me know if I'm missing anybody. The two Lunney's are a GD=6 at 67, but we don't have an STR haplotype on Lane.

f159823 Lunney - Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh, Kinawley Parish
f159824 Lunney - Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh
fN112842 Lane(McLane) - Ireland, Connacht, Co. Roscommon, Athleague

Here are the suspects in the variety z6171314:

f108630 Collins DF13+ L513- L96- L144- z6171314 Ireland, Ulster

f96153 McDonnell DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z255- DF41- L96- L144- L195- L130- L69-
3c1g z6171314 Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin

fN78670 Cunningham L21+ z6171314 Ireland, Ulster

CTTS2457 could be considered for broader exploratory testing within DF13* folks,
but I think the above suspects are critical people to test, especially Collins.
Of course, we also would like to see Lane(McLane) add Y STRs, the more, there
merrier.


Joe Carroll pointed out there was another CTS2457 result, which puts this SNP
well on its way towards being the 14th clade under R-DF13. I have put the
CTS2457+ results in their own section at the right edge of the summary table:
http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L21.pdf

The CTS2457+ results are in Mike's variety currently named z6171314.

CTS2457 is available for order from FTDNA.

http://daver.info/geno/results/OrderSNP.htm http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/15977

Rory Cain
05-28-2013, 11:31 PM
I can find three CTS2457+ people based on David's chart. Let me know if I'm missing anybody. The two Lunney's are a GD=6 at 67, but we don't have an STR haplotype on Lane.

f159823 Lunney - Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh, Kinawley Parish
f159824 Lunney - Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh
fN112842 Lane(McLane) - Ireland, Connacht, Co. Roscommon, Athleague

Here are the suspects in the variety z6171314:

f108630 Collins DF13+ L513- L96- L144- z6171314 Ireland, Ulster

f96153 McDonnell DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z255- DF41- L96- L144- L195- L130- L69-
3c1g z6171314 Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin

fN78670 Cunningham L21+ z6171314 Ireland, Ulster

CTTS2457 could be considered for broader exploratory testing within DF13* folks,
but I think the above suspects are critical people to test, especially Collins.
Of course, we also would like to see Lane(McLane) add Y STRs, the more, there
merrier.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/15977

In addition to further CTS2457 testing, further results for the paternity of this new offspring are required in order to determine if it in fact sits under one of the bigger DF13 sub-clades. McDonnell & Collins SNP tests are a start, but incomplete.
33809 Caine has several of the above suspects plus Lunney CTS2457+ amongst his STR matches. Origins unknown, but STR matches point towards Co Fermanagh. 33809 Caine has tested L21+ Z2534-.

Rory

Mikewww
06-13-2013, 03:48 PM
In addition to further CTS2457 testing, further results for the paternity of this new offspring are required in order to determine if it in fact sits under one of the bigger DF13 sub-clades. McDonnell & Collins SNP tests are a start, but incomplete.
33809 Caine has several of the above suspects plus Lunney CTS2457+ amongst his STR matches. Origins unknown, but STR matches point towards Co Fermanagh. 33809 Caine has tested L21+ Z2534-.

Rory
Any new news on CTS2457? I think it is worth pursuing but so are a lot of other things.

Dubhthach
07-02-2013, 08:58 AM
96153 McDonnell came back as CTS2457+ in this morning results. He's fairly heavily tested we can at least tell from his testing that CTS2457 isn't a subclade of:
L513, DF41, Z255, DF21, DF49, L144 and L96.

What sort of Genetic distance are we looking at between the CTS2457+ men? Do they meet the requirements for ISOGG diversity. If so then it's a matter of verifing it's position regarding current isogg snp's.

-Paul
(DF41+)

MhcDhomhnuill
07-04-2013, 03:31 AM
So which tests narrow the search?

The McDonnell


96153 McDonnell came back as CTS2457+ in this morning results. He's fairly heavily tested we can at least tell from his testing that CTS2457 isn't a subclade of:
L513, DF41, Z255, DF21, DF49, L144 and L96.

What sort of Genetic distance are we looking at between the CTS2457+ men? Do they meet the requirements for ISOGG diversity. If so then it's a matter of verifing it's position regarding current isogg snp's.

-Paul
(DF41+)

rms2
07-04-2013, 01:48 PM
So which tests narrow the search?

The McDonnell

. . .


Well, DF21, DF49, L96, L144, L513, and Z255 have been eliminated as upstream of CTS2457.

That leaves CTS4466, DF41, L1335, Z251, and Z253 yet to be eliminated.

Dubhthach
07-04-2013, 04:29 PM
Is CTS2457 on the Geno 2.0 list of SNP's? If it then you could use know Geno 2.0 results to determine status with regards to the other SNP's.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
07-04-2013, 09:32 PM
So which tests narrow the search?

The McDonnell



On the R1b-L21 yahoo list the following has been posted:



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David Reynolds <dna@daver.info>
Date: Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 10:05 PM
Subject: [R1b-L21-Project] Re: CTS2457 ready for ISOGG Tree?
To: R1b-L21-Project@yahoogroups.com



Thanks, Joe.

In reviewing the results to date, I see two further SNP tests that are needed before we can put CTS2457 on the tree, namely a CTS2457+ person needs to test L1335 and Z251.

With the addition of a CTS2457+ result for kit 96153 (McDonnell), the diversity requirement is met with a GD of 7/67 for kits 96153 and 159824 (Lunney).

Also, with the CTS2457+ result for McDonnell, I would say the odds are extremely high that everyone in the current z6171314 variety will test CTS2457+.

Regards,
david



--- In R1b-L21-Project@yahoogroups.com, "karjoe58" <jcarroll2@...> wrote:
>
> All 12 existing SNPs below DF13 are negative for CTS2457 because all have done Gen2 (assuming that there are no no-calls):
> (L679 is not currently on the ISOGG tree and thus a negative is not needed.)
>
> 17624 Megonnigil DF49
> 130361 Elliott L513
> 176268 Gontaut L96
> 130084 Kendall L144
> N84982 Turner L371
> N38274 Gaston Z255
> N16295 Ramsey Z253
> N57121 Compton DF21
> 57001 McConnell DF41
> N59178 Carroll CTS4466
> 107327 Iles L1335
> 139697 Godwin Z251
>
> Do I have this right? Any comments?
>
> ----------- Joe
>


To get CTS2457 on the ISOGG tree you will need to test for Z251 and L1335. It appears that all of the existing ISOGG snp's are negative for CTS2457 due to it been on Geno 2.0 chip and members of these clades having tested Geno 2.0.

-Paul
(DF41+)

MhcDhomhnuill
07-08-2013, 03:27 AM
L1335 and Z251 ordered
McDonnell

Rory Cain
08-30-2013, 10:57 PM
Any new news on CTS2457? I think it is worth pursuing but so are a lot of other things.

Mike, I put up the funding for 33809 Cain's CYS3655 test and I see from Cain Project General Funds that Joe Carroll has kindly refunded me. Now waiting for results.

Rory

JoeCarr
09-17-2013, 03:12 PM
Current status of CTS2457:
It's on the ISOGG tree as CTS2457.2 as of 12 August.
Mike's L21 spreadsheet uses the variety 2457-61713.
There are 14 in this variety; 4 with 111 markers, 9 with 67, and 1 with only 12.
Four of these have tested positive for CTS2457.2; 3 have tested only to L21, one to DF13, and 6 have not tested any SNPs.
------- Joe

Rory Cain
10-23-2013, 09:51 PM
Any new news on CTS2457? I think it is worth pursuing but so are a lot of other things.

33809 Caine (Y25) is indeed CTS2457+ as I expected. Earliest known location is Baltimore MD, the only officially Catholic colony of the original 13. Arriving through Maryland is frequently a good clue as to Irish origins, especially when combined a name known to be the anglicised version of an Irish name, such as Caine = O Cathain.

Rory Cain
12-03-2013, 11:04 PM
On the R1b-L21 yahoo list the following has been posted:



To get CTS2457 on the ISOGG tree you will need to test for Z251 and L1335. It appears that all of the existing ISOGG snp's are negative for CTS2457 due to it been on Geno 2.0 chip and members of these clades having tested Geno 2.0.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Just a word of warning when reading Robert Casey's CTS2457 spreadsheet online. The Cain listed there is not a CTS2457 guy, he is a L513, namely #51089 Cain. Unless he was included for comparative purposes, he should not be there.

The only CTS2457 from my project thus far is 33809 Cain (ancestor was Caine) who you can see at www.familytreedna.com/public/Cain-Caine.

MJost
01-17-2014, 10:41 PM
SNP CTS2457 is available at YSeq

MJost

MJost
04-03-2014, 06:42 PM
For those who haven't heard yet, CTS2457 is down stream from the new FGC5496 and information can be seen here.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNYjhULXNuQURDVXc/edit?usp=sharing

Https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNR3dYWmxiVGJLS1U/edit?usp=sharing

YSEQID 107 159823 Lunney has tested positive for FGC5496 as a CTS2457+. All kits considered in the same variety should test positive and fall under FGC5496.

There will shortly be a fuller discussion of the very probable association with the historical Menapii's both into Ireland and Wales as FGC5496'ers.

FGC5496 Subclade ISOGG Tree Predicted
Note: @SNPs have been not been but are being currently being tested by Sanger Sequencing to validate as suspected to be.

• R1b1a2a1a2c1m FGC5496,FGC7448 [via S7958/FGC5495 Chromo2 ID's 975, 977, 980, 981, 984, 985, 986]
• • R1b1a2a1a2c1m* -

Subclade branch 1 (Scot/Wales/IOM branch)
• • R1b1a2a1a2c1m1 FGC5521
• • • R1b1a2a1a2c1m1* -
• • • R1b1a2a1a2c1m1a FGC5539, [f155812 Ross]
• • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1m1a* -
• • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1m1a1 FGC5538, [f148326 Jost=Watterson]
• • • R1b1a2a1a2c1m1b PF5191.1 [ f289737 Willis(982), Chromo2 ID 978 & 987]
• • • R1b1a2a1a2c1m1c @S2202 [f198135 Brunet(976) is currently Validating S2202 and his 21 new BigY SNPs]

Subclade branch 2 (Irish branch?)
• • R1b1a2a1a2c1m2 @S1088, (S1090)
• • • R1b1a2a1a2c1m2* -
• • • R1b1a2a1a2c1m2a CTS2457 [f159823 Lunney, N112842 Lane Chromo2 ID-1515]
• • • R1b1a2a1a2c1m2b @S17749, (S12547) [f65932 Wigand(979)]
• • • R1b1a2a1a2c1m2c @S1105, (S1079, S7953) [Chromo2 ID-983]



Rory, will you look into this too as Jim Wigand, who has been reaching this concept well before the discovery of either subclades for many years, and will join in the discussion soon.

MJost

MJost
04-03-2014, 06:56 PM
FGC5496 Branch two:

CTS2457.2 with N=13 (2457-61713) has a

Coalescence (the mrca node) of 1,154.7 +-604.8 ybp

Founders Intraclade of 1,657.0 +-724.5




FGC5496>FGC5521 Branch one:

Sub branch PF5191

with N=14 (z4871222) has a

Coalescence (the mrca node) of 1,023.1 +-569.3 ybp

Founders Intraclade of 1,244.5 +-627.9 ybp


Sub branch FGC5539

with N=20 (z1130-A1 & A1-1's ) has a

Coalescence (the mrca node) of 1,441.3 +-675.7 ybp

Founders Intraclade of 1,774.0 +-749.6 ybp

MJost
05-16-2014, 12:49 PM
In a DF21 thread, Pre-historical Menapii were mentioned. CTS2457 subclade has a number of positive members with a number of predicted kits in the mix. This subclade is now DF13>FGC5496>S1088>CTS2457. S1088 has three branches and one is solidly continental. Note the FGC5496>FGC5521>S2202 also has a solid continental leg as well. These facts appear to support that these two main branches of FGC5496: S1088 and FGC5521, all spawned prior to 500BC or earlier on the continent.

What is the significance of the below surnames under this subclade in isles history?

"+" = CTS2457+

Caine + zzCountry UK
Collins Ireland Ireland, Ulster
Cunningham Ireland Ireland, Ulster
Gardner England England
Lane + Ireland Ireland, Connacht, Co. Roscommon, Athleague
Lunney + Ireland Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh, Kinawley Parish
MacGruar Scotland Scotland
McDonnell + Ireland Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin
McGrew Ireland Ireland
McGrew Scotland Scotland, Highland, Inverness-shire, Boleskineshire,
Nevin Ireland Ireland
Nugent + Ireland Ireland
O'Neill Ireland Ireland

MJost

Dubhthach
05-16-2014, 01:22 PM
In a DF21 thread, Pre-historical Menapii were mentioned. CTS2457 subclade has a number of positive members with a number of predicted kits in the mix. This subclade is now DF13>FGC5496>S1088>CTS2457. S1088 has three branches and one is solidly continental. Note the FGC5496>FGC5521>S2202 also has a solid continental leg as well. These facts appear to support that these two main branches of FGC5496: S1088 and FGC5521, all spawned prior to 500BC or earlier on the continent.

What is the significance of the below surnames under this subclade in isles history?

"+" = CTS2457+

Caine + zzCountry UK
Collins Ireland Ireland, Ulster
Cunningham Ireland Ireland, Ulster
Gardner England England
Lane + Ireland Ireland, Connacht, Co. Roscommon, Athleague
Lunney + Ireland Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh, Kinawley Parish
MacGruar Scotland Scotland
McDonnell + Ireland Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin
McGrew Ireland Ireland
McGrew Scotland Scotland, Highland, Inverness-shire, Boleskineshire,
Nevin Ireland Ireland
Nugent + Ireland Ireland
O'Neill Ireland Ireland

MJost

Lunney is quite popular name in Fermanagh supposedly, here's a snippet from Woulfe (1923)


Ó LUINIGH—I—O Lonney, O Loney, O Loony, Luny, Lunny, Lunney, Lonney, Loney, Loony, Looney; 'descendant of Luineach'; the name of a family of Cinel Moen in Ulster. They were seated orginally in the barony of Raphoe, but were afterwards driven across the Foyle by the O'Donnells, when they settled in Co. Tyrone, in a district to which they gave the name of Muinter Loony. The name is now very common in Co. Fermanagh.


The "Cinel Moen" bit could imply M222, unless of course there are more then one family bearing the name.

1901 census has following stats:
Lunney (total): 283
Lunney (Fermanagh): 167
Lunney (Tyrone): 45
Lunney (Donegal): 6

Of course Fermanagh = "Fear Manach" (The men of Manach -- formation "Fir/Fear + word" usually used for population groups). This is supposed connected to Menapi that are shown on Ptolmey's map. Obviously Fermanagh was dominated by the Maguires in the medieval period (Airghialla II -- L513+ L69.4+)

McDonnell


Mac DOMHNAILL—IV—M'Donaill, M'Donall, MacDonald, MacDonnell, MacDaniel, Donaldson, Donald, &c.; 'son of Domhnall' (world-mighty, an ancient and very common Irish personal name, anglicised Donald and Daniel). There are three distinct families of this name: (1) The MacDonalds, or MacDonnells, of Scotland, who derive their name and descent from Domhnall, or Donald, grandson of Somhairle thane of Argyle about the middle of the 12th century. They were the most powerful and warlike of all the Highland clans, and as lords of the Isles played an important part in the history of Scotland. In the 14th and 15th centuries, the MacDonalds came over in large numbers to Ireland, where they became famous as leaders of gallowglasses or heavy armed soldiers. They formed a military clan under their own chiefs who were often of high rank, and in reward for their services obtained grants of land in different parts of the country. In this way they seem to have formed a permanent settlement in Leinster as early as the middle of the 15th century, and acquired considerable estates in Leix and the present Co. of Wicklow. By the marriage John Mor, son of the Lord of the Isles, with the heiress of MacEoin Bissett, about the beginning of the 15th century, the Glinns of Antrim came into their possession, but it was only about the year 1520 that, in right of this marriage, they effected a permanent settlement in that county. The MacDonnells played a conspicuous part in the confederate and Jacobite wars, and both in Ireland and Scotland, were Mac to the last to the Stuart cause. The great bulk of our Irish MacDonnells belong to this race. (2) The MacDonnells of Clan-Kelly. They were chiefs of Clan-Kelly in Co. Fermanagh, and even as late as the end of the 16th century formed a distinct clan, with a chief of the name. (3) The MacDonnells of Thomond. This family, according to Dr. O'Brien (Irish Dictionary. s.v. Domhnall, Conchobhar), is a branch of that of O'Brien, being descended from Domhnall, who was son of Murtagh Mor O'Brien, King of Ireland. MacDonnell, or MacDonald, is now one of our most numerous surnames. See Mac Dhomhnaill.


son of Dónal/Domhnall (Dónal = modern spelling of Domhnall). In scotland this surname was anglisced as McDonald. Generally McDonnell in Ireland, what we've seen for example is that there are DF21+ (Clan Colla) McDonnell's/McDonalds with origins in Fermanagh/Monaghan. These probably are the family that belonged to "Clann Ceallaigh" (the children of Cellach aka. Clankelly in english)

-Paul
(DF41+)

MJost
05-16-2014, 03:59 PM
Thank you Paul for the information. I note that Wolfe stated that the Looney surname was a derivative of Ó LUINIGH, but I looked at the HG for the Isle of Man and these guys are I2b1 I-M223 along with one in the Family Tree DNA I2b1 I-M223 project.

Do you or anyone know of information of this group moving from South of Leinster to Co. Fermanagh and why?

This original group was documented as the Menapii and are the only known Celtic tribe specifically named on Ptolemy's 150 A.D. map of Ireland, where they located their first trading colony -- Menapia -- on the Leinster coast circa around 200BC. They later settled around Lough Erne, becoming known as the Fir Manach, and giving their name to Fermanagh and Monaghan.

MJost

Dubhthach
05-16-2014, 04:49 PM
Thank you Paul for the information. I note that Wolfe stated that the Looney surname was a derivative of Ó LUINIGH, but I looked at the HG for the Isle of Man and these guys are I2b1 I-M223 along with one in the Family Tree DNA I2b1 I-M223 project.

Do you or anyone know of information of this group moving from South of Leinster to Co. Fermanagh and why?

This original group was documented as the Menapii and are the only known Celtic tribe specifically named on Ptolemy's 150 A.D. map of Ireland, where they located their first trading colony -- Menapia -- on the Leinster coast circa around 200BC. They later settled around Lough Erne, becoming known as the Fir Manach, and giving their name to Fermanagh and Monaghan.

MJost

Well I don't know it's as much "South Leinster" as in as much Mid/North Leinster (in historical sense). You have to remember that the current province of Leinster is really the combination of historic Leinster and the province of Meath. So up until the arrival of Normans Leinster really ended at Dublin. If you look at Ptolmey's map the Manapi appear just south of Dublin (Eblana is generally regarded as a settlement on River Liffey)

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/scan0001.jpg

As for their movements no one knows they were definetly during the pre-Christain era (prior to 400AD). By later stage they wouldn't have existed as an "independent dynastical grouping" instead they would have formed the lower classes after they came under controll of the Airghialla (well really Maguires and relatives).

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ulster.htm


Monaig - The Journal of the Ulster Place-name Society places the Monaigh Uladh in the region of Downpatrick, which is located in the barony of Lecale (Leth Cathail). The Book of Lecan notes the Monaich Ulad of Rusat, and the Monaigh of Lough Erne. O'Curry in his Manuscript Materials mentions Monaigh Arad, being called from one of the three grandsons of Capha, in county Down.
Reeves' Antiquities of Down, Connor and Dromore places the Cenél Maelche, a sept of the Ulidians of Dal-Araidians or Dal Fiatach, near Moira (Mag Rath), county Down, or in Antrim, alias Monach. The Annals of the Four Mastersnotes Cearran, son of Colman, chief of Cenél Mailche, was slain, in alliance with the Dal-Araidhe in the year 912, at Carn-Ereann near the Ravel Water in Ulster. The Book of Ui Maine places the Cenél Mailche in Monach.
The annals make note of Mac Giolla Epscoip (e.g. Mac Gillespie) as a chief of Clann Aeilabhra, rector of Monach-an-Dúin, legislator of Cath Monaigh. O'Donovan places the Clann Ailebra in county Down (Four Masters). MacLysaght (More Irish Families) places these Mac Giolla Epscoips, chiefs of Aeilabhra in the barony of Iveagh, county Down; later becoming erenaghs of Kilraine in couny Donegal.
The Book of Lecan mentions the place-name Magh Monaigh, the four "prímthuatha na Bredcha" in Magh Monaigh in Ulster being the Cenél Dogfa, Clann Corcráin, Ui Thacain, and Artraidi. It goes on to note the Cenél Cridain in Magh Monaigh, in Ulster.

As tradition has it the the ancient Manaigh or Monaigh occupied the area near Lough Erne, giving their name to the modern county of Fermanagh. The Journal of the Ulster Place-name Societyalso noted their presence in county Down. The Monaig are often associated with the Manapioi (Menapii), a maritime Belgic tribe of Northern Gaul who are noted on Ptolemy's 2nd century map of Ireland in southeast Ireland. They spread northwards as the Fir Manach, or Monaig in Irish. Early Irish genealogists claim they migrated from south Leinster, their descent from the ancient Laiginian ancestor-god, Catháer Máir.

An early Manach genealogy (among the Uladh pedigrees): (Rawlinson)
Ragnall m. Cernaich m. Gillae Brigte m. Coscraich m. Cenndubáin m. Duiligén m. Galáin m. Cainnecháin m. Máel Tochaid m. Gilluráin m. Inglaind m. Comgaill m. Corccáin m. Manaich m. Ailella (Móir) m. Féicc m. Dáire Barraich m. Catháer Máir.

The Annals cite:
U1056, Étrú son of Labraid, chief of the Monaig, a pillar of the glory of Ulaid, died in penitence.
M1056, Etru, son of Labhraidh, chief of Monach, pillar of the glory of Ulidia, died, after a good life.
U1104, Cormac ua Cormaic, chief of Monach, died.
LC1171, Gilla-Aenghusa, son of Gilla-Espuic, viz.: the rector of Monach-an-Dúin.
M1171, Gilla-Aenghusa, son of Mac Gillaepscoip, ruler of Monaigh at Dun (Downpatrick).
U1171, Gilla-Oenghusa Mac Gilla-espuic, namely, by the lawgiver of Monaigh.
M1172, Mac Giolla Epscoip, chief of Clann-Aeilabhra, legislator of Cath Monaigh, was treacherously slain by Donslevy O'Haughy, king of Ulidia. The chiefs of Ulidia, who were as guarantees between them, put Donslevy to death for it i.e. for his crime .



http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/breifne2.htm#managh



Fir Managh
In County Fermanagh. According to one story, the original 'Fir Manach' are claimed to come from Leinster, reaching the Upper Lough Erne at very early date. "At the coming of Christianity, Fermanagh was partly independent (i.e. original tribes), partly under the Oriel tribes and partly under Connaught influence" (Livingstone 1969, 6). Throughout the 11th and 12th centuries the Kings of Fermanagh - O'hEignigh, O'Maolruanaidh and O'Dubhdara - were drawn from the Airghialla [Oriel], its Clann Lugainn branch, which is stated in the early genealogies to descend from one of the three Collas, i.e. Colla Fochríth. The O'Heany or Hegney (Ó hEignigh) and Mulrooney (Maolruanaidh) septs were noted as kings of Fermanagh (Fer Manach) until becoming tributary to the Maguires (Meicc h-Uidir) by the 13th century.

An early Leinster genealogy of the Manach and the Monaigh of Ulster: (Rawlinson)
Ragnall m. Cernaich m. Gillae Brigte m. Coscraich m. Cenndubáin m. Duiligén m. Galáin m. Cainnecháin m. Máel Tochaid m. Gilluráin m. Inglaind m. Comgaill m. Corccáin m. Manaich m. Ailella m. Féicc m. Dáire Barraich m. Catháer Máir.

An early Genelach Clainne Lugáin .i. Fer Manach (Rawlinson) Gilla Coluim m. Gillai Críst m. Éicnich m. Dálaich m. Meicc h-Uidir m. Cernaich m. Lugáin m. Írgalaich m. Feichín m. Cormaic m. Fergusa m. Cairpri Daim Argait m. Echdach m. Crimthaind m. Féicc m. Dega Duirn m. Rochada m. Colla Fochríth.

An early genealogy of Meg hUidhir (Maguire): (Book of Balymote)
Pilip m. Aeda m. Flaithbertaich m. Duind m. Domnaill m. Gilla Isu m. Duind m. Ragnaill m. Uidhir m. Serraich m. Uidhir m. Serraich m. Airgiallaich m. Uidir m. Cernaich m. Lugain m. Irgalaich m. Eignich m. Cormaic m. Fergusa m. Aeda m. Cormaic m. Cairpri (Daim Argait) m. Eachach m. Crimthainn m. Feic m. Deadaduirn m. Rochadha m. Colla Da Crich.

The Annals cite:
For 1009/10, Cathal son of Dub Dara, king of Fir Manach, died.
For 1053, Niall ua hÉicnigh, king of Fir Manach, was killed by the men of Lurg.
For 1057, Domnall ua Ruairc was killed by Domnall son of Mael Ruanaid, king of Fir Manach.
For 1076, There were killed Gairbeith ua Innrechtaigh, king of Uí Méith—by the men of Mide, and Gilla Críst ua Duibdara, king of Fir Manach—in Daiminis, by the Fir Manach.
For 1077, The defeat of Mael Dergi, in which many fell, was inflicted on the Fir Manach by the Cenél Eógain of Telach Óc.
For 1095, Ua hÉicnigh, king of Fir Manach, was killed by his own people.
For 1101, Donnchad son of Aed ua Ruairc was killed by the Fir Manach.
For 1118, Laidcnén ua Duibdara, king of Fir Manach, was killed by the Uí Fhiachrach and Fir na Craíbhe.
For 1126, Ua Mael Ruanaid, king of Fir Manach, was killed by his own people.
For 1127, Gilla Críst ua hÉicnigh, king of Fir Manach and over-king of Airgialla, died in Clochar Mac nDaimín after excellent repentance.
For 1128, A leap year and embolismal year. The men of Magh Itha, i.e. Domnall ua Gailmredhaigh, and the Cenél Moain stormed a house against the king of Fir Manach, i.e. Faelán ua Duibdara, and he fell by them, and a number of the nobles of the Fir Manach with him.
For 1160, Maol Ruanaidh, tigherna Fer Manach.
For 1189, ‘Son of the night’ Ua Mailruanaigh, king of Fir-Manach, was deposed and went to Ua Cerbaill. And a foray [-party] of the Foreigners came into the country and Ua Cerbaill and Ua Maelruanaigh encounter them and defeat is inflicted upon Ua Cerbaill and Ua Maelruanaidh is killed there.
For 1234, Oenghus Mac Gille-Fhinnein, king of Fir-Manach, was killed by Ua Domnaill.
For 1241, Domnall Mor Ua Domnaill, king of Tir-Conaill and Fir-Manach and Cairpri and Airghialla from the Plain downwards, died...
For 1275, Flaithbertach Ua Daimin, king of Fir-Manach; rested in Christ...
For 1298/1302, Donn Mag Uidhir, king of Fir-Manach, namely, the first king of Fir-manach of the sons of Mag Uidhir, rested in Christ.
For 1306, Ma[c] Craith Mag Uidhir, royal heir of Fir-Manach and Domnall Mac Gille-Michil, chief of Clann-Conghaile, were pillaged and burned by Ralph Mac Mathgamna.
For 1324, Flaithbertach Mag Uidhir, king of Fir-Manach, died.
For 1333, Aed h. Domnaill ri Tiri Conaill & Fer Manach.
For 1335/8, Ruaidhri (of the hospitality, son of Flaithbertach, son of Donn junior, otherwise Carrach) Mag Uidhir, king of Fir-Manach and of Loch-Eirne (for fourteen years; otherwise, for two years), the man that most bestowed of money and of goods, of horses and of herds and of cattle, died on the pillow after victory [of praise] from learned and from poets.
For 1360/3, Aedh Mag Uidhir (the Red), king of Fir-Manach, died this year.
For 1366, Philip Mag Uidhir, namely, king of Fir-Manach...
For 1373, Brian Mag Uidhir, one fit to be king of Fir-Manach, was killed by the sons of Art Mag Uidhir.
For 1379, Richard Mac Cathmail was killed by Philip Mag Uidhir, namely, the king of Fir-Manach and by Domnall Ua Neill.
For 1394, Thomas Mag Uidhir junior (namely, king of Fir-Manach), that is, son of the Black Gillie Mag Uidhir, was born in this year.
For 1395, Philip Mag Uidhir (namely, Philip of the battle- axe) died this year: to wit, king of Fir-Manach (for thirty-one years), ... The black Gillie Mag Uidhir, namely, Thomas, son of Philip Mag Uidhir, took the kingship of Fir-Manach this year.
For 1419, Thomas Mag Uidhir, namely, king of Fir-Manach...
For 1430, Mag Uidhir died this year (namely, on the Ides 13th of November); to wit, the king of Fir-Manach, that is; Thomas (namely, the Black Gillie), son of Philip, son of Aedh the Red:...
For 1436, Thomas Mag Uidhir junior, that is, the king of FirManach...
For 1472, Edmond Mag Uidhir was made king in Fir-Manach this year.

Dubhthach
05-17-2014, 06:54 AM
Mark,

I should note that other then a few examples Ptolmey map doesn't really bear any resemblence to Ireland polticially by the time of Christianity. If anything there appears to have been much upheaval. I always find it interesting that certain lineages such as CTS4466, M222 (well big chunk of it) and Z255 all appear to have TMRCA in period 1500-2000 years ago. It sort points to these lineages rising to power in respective areas during that period.

-Paul
(DF41+)

stancourtney
05-19-2014, 11:33 AM
I had one of my wife's cousin test - Hill - Kit No: 284099 has also been predicted by ftDNA as being CTS2457. He has tested 111 and is 3/37 with Lunney. I traced them to the state of Maryland.

Stan Courtney

MJost
08-06-2014, 06:14 PM
Paul,

FGC5496 now has a couple of Killey's from the IoM. They appear to be under FGC5521 branch. As we understand the other S1088 branch has CTS2457 subclade

Mac Gilla (Gillae) Ceallaigh now is Killey. The Killey branch is at least 900 years before present back to a most recent common ancestor with initial testing into my most recent eight SNPs which he is negative for.

You post quit a few Gilla's in a previous post. Is this a rare name that would have continued forward past 1000AD? I am looking for the tie in to early history of FGC5496 via the Manapii (Menapii).

MJost


Fir Managh
In County Fermanagh. According to one story, the original 'Fir Manach' are claimed to come from Leinster, reaching the Upper Lough Erne at very early date. "At the coming of Christianity, Fermanagh was partly independent (i.e. original tribes), partly under the Oriel tribes and partly under Connaught influence" (Livingstone 1969, 6). Throughout the 11th and 12th centuries the Kings of Fermanagh - O'hEignigh, O'Maolruanaidh and O'Dubhdara - were drawn from the Airghialla [Oriel], its Clann Lugainn branch, which is stated in the early genealogies to descend from one of the three Collas, i.e. Colla Fochríth. The O'Heany or Hegney (Ó hEignigh) and Mulrooney (Maolruanaidh) septs were noted as kings of Fermanagh (Fer Manach) until becoming tributary to the Maguires (Meicc h-Uidir) by the 13th century.

An early Leinster genealogy of the Manach and the Monaigh of Ulster: (Rawlinson)
Ragnall m. Cernaich m. Gillae Brigte m. Coscraich m. Cenndubáin m. Duiligén m. Galáin m. Cainnecháin m. Máel Tochaid m. Gilluráin m. Inglaind m. Comgaill m. Corccáin m. Manaich m. Ailella m. Féicc m. Dáire Barraich m. Catháer Máir.

An early Genelach Clainne Lugáin .i. Fer Manach (Rawlinson) Gilla Coluim m. Gillai Críst m. Éicnich m. Dálaich m. Meicc h-Uidir m. Cernaich m. Lugáin m. Írgalaich m. Feichín m. Cormaic m. Fergusa m. Cairpri Daim Argait m. Echdach m. Crimthaind m. Féicc m. Dega Duirn m. Rochada m. Colla Fochríth.

An early genealogy of Meg hUidhir (Maguire): (Book of Balymote)
Pilip m. Aeda m. Flaithbertaich m. Duind m. Domnaill m. Gilla Isu m. Duind m. Ragnaill m. Uidhir m. Serraich m. Uidhir m. Serraich m. Airgiallaich m. Uidir m. Cernaich m. Lugain m. Irgalaich m. Eignich m. Cormaic m. Fergusa m. Aeda m. Cormaic m. Cairpri (Daim Argait) m. Eachach m. Crimthainn m. Feic m. Deadaduirn m. Rochadha m. Colla Da Crich.

The Annals cite:
For 1009/10, Cathal son of Dub Dara, king of Fir Manach, died.
For 1053, Niall ua hÉicnigh, king of Fir Manach, was killed by the men of Lurg.
For 1057, Domnall ua Ruairc was killed by Domnall son of Mael Ruanaid, king of Fir Manach.
For 1076, There were killed Gairbeith ua Innrechtaigh, king of Uí Méith—by the men of Mide, and Gilla Críst ua Duibdara, king of Fir Manach—in Daiminis, by the Fir Manach.
For 1077, The defeat of Mael Dergi, in which many fell, was inflicted on the Fir Manach by the Cenél Eógain of Telach Óc.
For 1095, Ua hÉicnigh, king of Fir Manach, was killed by his own people.
For 1101, Donnchad son of Aed ua Ruairc was killed by the Fir Manach.
For 1118, Laidcnén ua Duibdara, king of Fir Manach, was killed by the Uí Fhiachrach and Fir na Craíbhe.
For 1126, Ua Mael Ruanaid, king of Fir Manach, was killed by his own people.
For 1127, Gilla Críst ua hÉicnigh, king of Fir Manach and over-king of Airgialla, died in Clochar Mac nDaimín after excellent repentance.

Dubhthach
08-08-2014, 02:49 PM
Mark,

"Gilla" which is "Giolla" in modern Irish is a word that means servant/boy/young man. In this case it's used in compound names. So for example:
"Giolla Phádraig" (Giollaphádraig) = servant of Patrick.

In traditional Irish naming systems during Gaelic periods you didn't call your children after saints, you always prefixed it with either "Giolla" or "Maol" (bald/tonsure eg. "devotee of"). So for example Giollaphádraig and Maolphádraig but symbolise a devotion to Saint Patrick when it came to naming the child.

In case of Giollacheallaigh (Giolla Cheallaigh) it means a "servant/devotee of St. Ceallach". Anyways as naming schemes go you will find men with "Giolla prefixes" in all the major dynastical groupings in Ireland.

The word is borrowed into English as ghillie, which is used both for the "hunting servants" on scottish hunting estates and for the camoflage suits that they wore. These are now standard issue to snipers in most world militaries and are called "Ghillie suites"

http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/seals/ghillie-suit.jpg

-Paul
(DF41+)

MhcDhomhnuill
08-16-2014, 02:52 AM
I just received my FtDNA Big Y results and they place me in the new subclad FGS 5496 how does that fit with CTS2457?

MJost
08-16-2014, 03:57 AM
I just received my FtDNA Big Y results and they place me in the new subclad FGS 5496 how does that fit with CTS2457?

You, 96153 already had earned the CTS2457+,so then you will also have a FGC7448+ ChrY:8501059 with an derived A+.

Then here is the lineage proven by Sanger sequencing: L21>DF13>FGC5496,FGC7448>S1088>CTS2457

Your the first BigY in the CTS2457 subclade. Send me your results file and I will review it for SNPs below CTS2457.

Welcome McDonnell !!!

MJost

JRW
08-16-2014, 07:50 PM
Welcome to the "verified" set of FGC5496 cousins. If you haven't done so already, you should upload your BigY results to the L21 Yahoo Group's Big Y folder. Mike Walsh and Alex Williamson are creating L21-wide phylogenetic trees. The addition of your BigY results will be helpful since there are a number of CTS2457+ (suspected) men.

MhcDhomhnuill
08-17-2014, 12:43 AM
Mike I can send you the zipped raw data file if that works. I'll need an email

Kelly

MJost
09-16-2014, 12:25 AM
FGC5494 & FGC5496 reviewed.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1817-FGC5496-(L21-gt-DF13-gt-FGC5496)-and-Subclades&p=52245&viewfull=1#post52245

MJost