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View Full Version : Ashkenazi Segment Match w/ Y-DNA J2a-F3133 Common Ancestor: Jewish Ancestor?



can't_lurk_no_mo'
01-29-2017, 08:31 PM
I have a match on a segment on 23andMe's Ancestry Composition that is identified as Ashkenazi. For me, it represents >.1% of my total ancestral painting at .50 confidence level. For him, it represents .4% at .80 confidence level. Anyways, we've figured our we're seventh cousins once removed. Among our common ancestors is one whose paternal line has been proven to be J2a M172>L25>F3133>L317, probably F761 too. This common ancestor has at least tens of thousands of descendants in the southern WV, southwest VA area and beyond. The family was already populating the Blue Ridge by the early 1700s and were living on the frontier for the next 100 years. I've seen y-dna J2a-F3133 described as Arabic. Could this haplogroup be construed as Jewish too? I would think >.1% Ashkenazi at 23andMe was just noise, but that y-dna haplogroup is unique for England and that small segment of Ashkenazi is the only bit either one of us has. Would these two coinciding factors support interpreting the Ashkenazi identification as real? Or could it have been an Arab or Syrian who moved into Roman Britannia whose autosmal dna is still floating around?

ddugas
02-01-2017, 06:13 PM
F761 is actually FGC9876. The F761 SNP has been removed because the Geno chip was picking up a mirror sequence in another area of the Y. It turned out to be FGC9876.

J-F3133 is mostly arab, most frequent in the Gulf states-UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait, Eastern Saudi Arabia. Likely relatively common in Iranians and is found as well in Kurds. It is also found in Azerbaijan, Eastern turkey, Iraq etc... I know of 2 jewish cases in J-F1333>FGC9961. One is sephardic, the other Mountain Jewish from Azerbaijan. L317 is under FGC9962 which is under FGC9961. These clades are common and sometimes predominent in some arab tribes-Tamimi, Tayy, Soudan, Bani Khalid.

I know the L317 cluster you are mentioning and while I can't comment on your detective work as it relates to pinpointing it as the source of your ashkenazi autosomal match, I can say that there has been discussion about L317. The subclade is very tightly woven from an STR perspective and has members in Italy, Netherlands, Belgium and England. The Netherlands, Belgium and England are especially tight, GD=3-4 on 67 markers. And really what you probably have is a single ancestor from about 1000-1400AD who's descendants seem to have really moved around these 3 countries. The naming in the UK samples is for the most part, very similar, names in Belgium and Netherlands different. Probably they all descend from a merchant family who spread this lineage but who really knows.

Based on my knowledge of this group, I would say an Alan origin, or possibly jewish but lacking a reference dataset to confirm it. You could also be dealing with a miscellaneous middle eastern merchant ancestor. But, the STR pattern is extremely tight and all L317 descend from a single man. L317's closest match is from Eastern Saudi Arabia, Bani Khalid Tribe. I'm in a neighbouring cluster and my closest match is from Iraq.

Short answer-not enough info to say specifically, but all of L317 descends from a single middle eastern migrant who likley arrived in europe between 3000bc and 1000AD