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A Norfolk L-M20
01-31-2017, 11:31 PM
Living DNA Results and analysis here!

My Documentary Ancestry over the past 280 years, divided into Living DNA sub regions, might suggest something like:

100% European
100% British Isles

77% East Anglia
12% Southern Central England / Southern England
6% Lincolnshire
5% Unknown.

More information on the link in my signature.

23andMe in AC spec (unphased), said:

Y haplogroup L2* mt haplogroup H6a1

100% European (94% NW European. 3% Southern European. 3% Broadly European).

32% British & Irish
27% French & German
7% Scandinavian
29% Broadly NW European
2% Broadly Southern European (including 0.5% Iberian)

FT-DNA got me as:

Y haplogroup L-SK1414 (L1b2c) via Y111, Big Y tests, etc, and mt haplogroup H6a1a8 via mtFull Sequence.

Family Finder:

100% European.

36% British Isles
32% Southern Europe
26% Scandinavia
6% Eastern Europe

Living DNA Standard Mode 2017-01-30

100% European
Regional:
74% Great Britain & Ireland
10% Europe (South)
7% Europe (North and West)
10% Europe (unassigned).

Sub-regional:

39% East Anglia
8% South Central England
5% South East England
5% Lincolnshire

2.5% Cornwall
2.4% North Yorkshire
2% South England
1.9% Devon
1.6% Central England
1.5% North West England
1.3% South Yorkshire
1.2% Northumbria

3.5% unassigned Great Britain & Ireland

10% Tuscany (Europe South)
5% Scandinavia (Europe North and West)
2% Germanic (Europe North and West)
9.7% Europe unassigned.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13716&d=1485807002

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13717&d=1485807009

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13733&d=1485905738

simdadams
02-02-2017, 04:01 PM
Thanks for that , I think from a auDNA perspective mine seems to make sense , I have done a rough report of my locations of birth for GGPs

GGP Essex, London, Berkshire, Suflok, Bengal (English ex-pat)
2GGP Armagh (English ex-pat), Surrey, Middlesex, Kent, Berkshire, Cambridgeshire, Suffolk, Staffordshire, Lomdon
3GGP Devon, Dorset, Cornwall, Kent, Berkshire, Surrey, Cambridgeshire, Sufflolk, Staffordshire, London,IoW, Wiltshire, Norfolk, Essex
4GGP Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Cornwall, Kent, Berkshire, Surrey, Cambridghire, Suffolk , Staffordhire, Oxfordshire, Herffordshire, IoW, Essex, Wiltshire,
5GGP Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Cornwall, Kent, Berkshire, Surrey, Cambridghire, Suffolk , Staffordhire, Oxfordshire, Herffordshire, IoW, Essex, Wiltshire,
6GGP Devon, Somerset, Cornwall, Kent, IoW, Buckinghamsjire, Berkshire, Gloucestershire, Surrey, Cambridgeshire, Staffordshire, Essex
7GGP Devon, Dorset, Cornwall, Kent, Berkshire, Surrey, Cambridgeshire, Staffordshire, IoW, Essex
8GGP Devon, Dorset, Cornwall, Kent, Berkshire, Cambridgeshire, Staffordshire,
9GGP Dorset, Cornwal, Kent, Cambridgeshire, Staffordshire, Somerset,
10GGP Somerset, Kent, Cambrdigeshire, Staffordshire
11GGP Somerset, Kent, Cambrdigeshire, Essex, Staffordshire
12GGP Somerset

Obviously the smaller groups more generations are due more to gaps in paper trail rather than all in one area , but that seen alongside my results doesn't seem so bad, I wonder if the Lincolnshire reflects Cambridge shire or Staffordshire?

LivingDNA Result

Southeast England 27%
South England 17.8%
Lincolnshire 9.3%
Devon 7.4%
East Anglia 4.7%
Cornwall 4.5%
South Central England 4.3%
Central England 3.8%
South Yorkshire 3.7%
Northumbria 2.6%
Aberdeenshire 2.5%
North Wales 1.4%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 1.4%
South Wales 1.4%
Europe (unassigned) 8%

13763

David Nicholson
02-03-2017, 01:30 PM
Hi Everyone,

One feature that I think you will find really useful is when we launch the Cautious Mode and Complete mode, we are on track to complete this during the month of February,

Warm Regards

David

Celt_??
02-08-2017, 06:39 PM
DEDIT - Double post. See below.

A Norfolk L-M20
02-08-2017, 06:41 PM
OMG !! I'm more friggin "British" than A Norfolk L-M20: Great Britain and Ireland - 85.3%

Click image for larger version. Name: 4 - Family Ancestory Regional.jpg Views: 40 Size: 54.4 KB ID: 13743

Click image for larger version. Name: 5 - Ancestory Sub Regional.jpg Views: 40 Size: 91.6 KB ID: 13744

I am totally amazed!! National Geographic Geno 2.0 NG gave my Primary Population as German and my Secondary as Dutch. {A lot of German on the maternal sides.} This is a screenshot of my GENO 2.0 NG results: Western and Central Europe - 53%, Great Britain & Ireland - 38%, Asia Minor - 4% .

Click image for larger version. Name: National Geographic GENO 2.0 NG.jpg Views: 16 Size: 85.6 KB ID: 13745


I'm wondering how my Living DNA results are possible after 6 generations in the USA ?!

Thanks a lot ADW_1981 !!

How does it tie to known ancestry and surnames?

Celt_??
02-08-2017, 06:44 PM
OMG !! I'm more friggin "British" than A Norfolk L-M20: Great Britain and Ireland - 85.3%

I am totally amazed!! National Geographic Geno 2.0 NG gave my Primary Population as German and my Secondary as Dutch. {A lot of German on the maternal sides.} This is a screenshot of my GENO 2.0 NG results: Western and Central Europe - 53%, Great Britain & Ireland - 38%, Asia Minor - 4% .

LIVING DNA results:

Sub Regional Results: Lincolnshire - 15.3%, Central England - 12.5%, Southeast England - 7.8%, Northwest England 7.5%, Northwest Scotland - 6.5%, South Wales Border - 4.9%, Devon - 4.8%, Cornwall - 4.1%, Aberdeenshire - 3.9%, Northumbria - 3.8%, Southwest Scotland & NI - 1.5%, South Wales - 1.4%, Orkley - 1.3%, Great Britain & Ireland (unassigned) - 9.9%, Europe (unassigned) - 8.8%. Near East / North Turkey - 4.4% World (unassigned) - 1.5%

PATERNAL: R - U152, L20 .

MATERNAL: H1, H1b


I'm wondering how my Living DNA autosomal results are possible after 6 generations in the USA ?!

Thanks a lot ADW_1981 !!

Solothurn
02-08-2017, 06:46 PM
David Nicholson

I have sent you a private message, have you received it?


Hi Everyone,

One feature that I think you will find really useful is when we launch the Cautious Mode and Complete mode, we are on track to complete this during the month of February,

Warm Regards

David

kingjohn
02-08-2017, 06:47 PM
A Norfolk L-M20
you score 9.6% tuscany
do you think it is roman genes ?
cool results
adam

A Norfolk L-M20
02-08-2017, 07:13 PM
A Norfolk L-M20
you score 9.6% tuscany
do you think it is roman genes ?
cool results
adam

Open minded. Against recorded ancestry and family history, I find it difficult to account for 10% in recent family admixture. It's possible a Southern 5xgreat grandparent here and there, maybe one slightly more recently, but 10% suggests more recent if it was real family admixture, or on multiple lines which seems even less likely. My feeling is population background (Norman Medieval, Roman, etc) - but I'll wait until I've seen a lot more English tester's results before I develop any opinion. The English on 23andMe more often than not, test a small percentage of Southern European. FT-DNA FF My Origins gave me 32% South European! Living DNA themselves report: "... if you are a mixture of French and German, you may appear to have North-Italian like ancestry. ".

I don't know. My auDNA results do appear to be atypical for English, never mind British. They are on the extreme of Continental. In some tests they sometimes also have an enhanced "Southern European" aspect - although as I said, most English have a touch of this. On ancient DNA calculators we tend to have slightly more Neolithic Farmer, slightly less ANE than either the Irish, or Scandinavians. I do think that admixture during the Romano-British period remains understated, even my Y "could" have arrived here then, although I feel medieval slightly more likely. My family history and recorded ancestry is strongly rural East Anglian - with my mother's side in particular, clustered in East Norfolk, right on the Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Danish front line. Would it also be stupid to mention or suggest the randomness of genetic recombination? For example, on 23andMe split view (phased with my mother) I appear to have pretty much inherited all of her "French & German" segments, in addition to generous percentages presumably from my father. Phased split view results in 23andMe also suggest that I inherit Southern European from BOTH parents (1% each) - no surprise, because as I said, most English have a small percentage of Southern European.

I have been a big skeptic of auDNA tests for Ancestry. Although the Living DNA test has impressed me for correctly ascertaining much of my English ancestry into regions (although certainly not perfectly), I do not take ANY auDNA test results as infallible. The Tuscany signal is quite strong. I'll keep an open mind for now.

avalon
02-08-2017, 07:51 PM
OMG !! I'm more friggin "British" than A Norfolk L-M20: Great Britain and Ireland - 85.3%

I am totally amazed!! National Geographic Geno 2.0 NG gave my Primary Population as German and my Secondary as Dutch. {A lot of German on the maternal sides.} This is a screenshot of my GENO 2.0 NG results: Western and Central Europe - 53%, Great Britain & Ireland - 38%, Asia Minor - 4% .

LIVING DNA results:

Sub Regional Results: Lincolnshire - 15.3%, Central England - 12.5%, Southeast England - 7.8%, Northwest England 7.5%, Northwest Scotland - 6.5%, South Wales Border - 4.9%, Devon - 4.8%, Cornwall - 4.1%, Aberdeenshire - 3.9%, Northumbria - 3.8%, Southwest Scotland & NI - 1.5%, South Wales - 1.4%, Orkley - 1.3%, Great Britain & Ireland (unassigned) - 9.9%, Europe (unassigned) - 8.8%. Near East / North Turkey - 4.4% World (unassigned) - 1.5%

PATERNAL: R - U152, L20 .

MATERNAL: H1, H1b


I'm wondering how my Living DNA autosomal results are possible after 6 generations in the USA ?!

Thanks a lot ADW_1981 !!

Just out of interest, how far back in time do your 6 generations go?

Tbh, I'm not surprised about your high percentage of British ancestry, there must be large amounts of British ancestry in the Appalachians.

Celt_??
02-08-2017, 07:54 PM
How does it tie to known ancestry and surnames?

Our oldest know ancestor is a Thomas Milam found in the Piedmont of Virginia in 1738. We haven't found a bridge yet to the UK although we believe that our name, Milam, Millam, Mileham, Milom, etc are "British".

My grandfather Claude Milam is a 4th generation Milam in America.

Both my father, William Milam, and mother, Christine Miller, are descendants of different sons of William Fisher, a 1778 German emigrant to Virginia. Perry D. Fisher was my Grandmother Gerta Milam's father. And Mary Fisher Miller was my grandfather D. Wayne Miller's mother. Double dose of Fisher in my great grandparents.

My Grandfather D. Wayne Miller is a descendant of David Miller ( Mueller ) who emigrated from Hamburg Germany around 1820.

My grandmother Milam's maiden name was Casto, said to be Welch. Azariah Casto immigrated in 1696 to Bridgeton, New Jersey.

My grandmother Miller's maiden name was Cunningham, said to be from Dublin, Ireland. But could be Scottish.


The Mairs are Scot-Irish; the Lovejoy are English. Adam Aultz came to American from Germany in 1771 as a professional soldier. Nancy Koontz ( Kuntz ), was born in Mason County, Virginia (now in West Virginia) about 1820 and her father was George. They are believed to also be German. BUt I am certain that the folks with Germanic surnames had married a number of persons from Great Britain - so they were not pure German by any means.
--------------------------
So in addition to a lot of Fisher, Mueller, Aultz and Kuntz German ancestry, there is my Milam English, Lovejoy English, Castro Welch, Cunningham from Ireland, Mairs Scot-Irish. And Living DNA picked up on all of it - pretty amazing.

Dewsloth
02-08-2017, 08:00 PM
Living DNA themselves report: "... if you are a mixture of French and German, you may appear to have North-Italian like ancestry. ".



Good to know.

Celt_??
02-08-2017, 08:13 PM
Just out of interest, how far back in time do your 6 generations go?

Tbh, I'm not surprised about your high percentage of British ancestry, there must be large amounts of British ancestry in the Appalachians.

Beginning in the 1730s many Scot-Irish and a lessor number of German immigrants entered the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia from Maryland to the north. These immigrants typically entered America via the ports of Philadelphia and Baltimore then traveled west perhaps settling for a while in PA or MD before decided to head to the great fertile Valley of Virginia.

To the east of the Valley were the Blue Ridge Mountains and to the west were the higher and wilder Appalachian Mountains. The Scots in particular found the Appalachian Mountains attractive. The Germans preferred the Valley. Some traveled further south into North Carolina.

avalon
02-08-2017, 08:35 PM
Beginning in the 1730s many Scot-Irish and a lessor number of German immigrants entered the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia from Maryland to the north. These immigrants typically entered America via the ports of Philadelphia and Baltimore then traveled west perhaps settling for a while in PA or MD before decided to head to the great fertile Valley of Virginia.

To the east of the Valley were the Blue Ridge Mountains and to the west were the higher and wilder Appalachian Mountains. The Scots in particular found the Appalachian Mountains attractive. The Germans preferred the Valley. Some traveled further south into North Carolina.

Thanks for the informaton. Shenandoah, Blue Ridge mountains. Made me think of the John Denver song!

Calas
02-09-2017, 08:54 PM
10% Tuscany (Europe South)

Want to trade? I like Tuscany. I'll give you Basque & Northern Italy + the doesn't want to belong to England but NW Europe Scottish/Irish category.


Joking aside it is interesting that we both have southern European even if mine is far smaller at 3% total. But I think sktibo, Celt_?? & simdadams are the only three others with results and their European appears to be all unassigned. Unless I've gone blind and missed someone/something.

It'd be curious to see if this is just your ancestry though. You went through British ancestry on 23&me is there anyone else with close enough East Anglian ancestry that might be willing to fork over a few hundred pounds/dollars for this test? I'd say use a parent?/relative? but then it might just replicate itself by association.

CillKenny
02-09-2017, 09:30 PM
Results in. I will post my ydna results first. Father's family have lived in Wicklow with records back to the 1720s. I expect they have been there for almost a thousand years. I am confirmed Z255/Z16432 - Irish Sea - closest notable family group are the O'Byrnes. Living DNA leave my at Z255.

Here is a table of where Living DNA say you find R L21. Not sure what the percentages relate to though.

Wales 46%
Ireland 38%
Scotland 26%
England 17%
France 9%
Netherlands 6%
Spain 3%
Germany 2%
Switzerland 2%
Norway 1%

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-09-2017, 09:34 PM
The only European I get other than Britain and Ireland is Basque but to compensate I get Central and South Asia and the near East, albeit small percentages. I don't get any unassigned, open book I suppose. :) John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-09-2017, 09:43 PM
Results in. I will post my ydna results first. Father's family have lived in Wicklow with records back to the 1720s. I expect they have been there for almost a thousand years. I am confirmed Z255/Z16432 - Irish Sea - closest notable family group are the O'Byrnes. Living DNA leave my at Z255.

Here is a table of where Living DNA say you find Z255. Very interesting given the history of the Leyn Peninsula.

Wales 46%
Ireland 38%
Scotland 26%
England 17%
France 9%
Netherlands 6%
Spain 3%
Germany 2%
Switzerland 2%
Norway 1%

I only seem to get a distribution map for U106 although they have identified my Z326? John

Calas
02-09-2017, 09:46 PM
The only European I get other than Britain and Ireland is Basque but to compensate I get Central and South Asia and the near East, albeit small percentages. I don't get any unassigned, open book I suppose. :) John

How small for the central/southern Asian & Near East? And what regions. Or are you going to post the entire thing for others to compare?

CillKenny
02-09-2017, 09:46 PM
Here are the aDNA results. It will take a while to digest. I have details on Father's line going back 4 generations. Al allmost Wicklow and Wexford - one from Limerick. Grandmother Murphy - from FTDNA aDNA I believe these Murphys to also be Z255. Mother is from Tipperary - mixture of Gaelic and Norman names. FTDNA indicates one Scandinavian ancestor within last 5 generations - I have some aDNA matches that have almost only Scandinavian names as their matches.

What is instantly remarkable is how much is attributed to places in the largest island in our archipelago

Europe 98.9%
Great Britain and Ireland 91.5%
Ireland 20.4%
Southeast England 16.8%
Cornwall 8.6%
Northwest Scotland 6.6%
South Central England 6.4%
North Wales 4.7%
North Yorkshire 4.6%
Cumbria 4.3%
South England 3.6%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 2.9%
South Yorkshire 2.5%
South Wales 2.4%
Central England 1.6%
Orkney 1.5%
Aberdeenshire 1.1%
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 3.6%
Europe (North and West) 4.7%
Scandinavia 4.7%
Europe (unassigned) 2.6%
Asia (South) 1.1%
Balochistan 1.1%

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-09-2017, 09:54 PM
How small for the central/southern Asian & Near East? And what regions. Or are you going to post the entire thing for others to compare?

I did post my results early on but here they are :-
Asia Central (North west Caucasus) 2.3%
Near East (North Turkey) 1.8%
South Asia (Burusho) 1.5%

John

CillKenny
02-09-2017, 09:57 PM
MtDNA coincides with FTDNA - K1c1b. Not sure table of frequencies relates to K generally or K1c1b

Ashkenazi Jewish 32%
Ireland 11%
Wales 11%
Kurdish 11%
Scotland 10%
Morocco 8%
England 8%
Palestine 8%
Germany 7%
Armenia 7%
Syria 6%
Iran 6%
Turkey 6%
Saudi Arabia 6%
Spain 5%
Yemen 5%
Scandinavia 5%
Czech Republic 4%
Russia 3%
Jordan 3%
Egypt 2%
North Sudan 1%

Reading back the figures relate to K. So very far back in time.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-09-2017, 10:00 PM
This is the whole lot. I did get some unassigned it seems. John

Great Britain and Ireland 92.2%
South Central England 23.8%
South Wales Border 23%
South Wales 14.2%
North Wales 7.7%
Northumbria 3.3%
Lincolnshire 3.1%
Central England 3.1%
Northwest Scotland 2.9%
Cornwall 2.4%
South Yorkshire 2.4%
Ireland 2.2%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 1.4%
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 2.6%
Europe (South) 2.2%
Basque 2.2%
Asia (Central) 2.3%
Northwest Caucasus 2.3%
Near East 1.8%
North Turkey 1.8%
Asia (South) 1.5%
Burusho 1.5%

avalon
02-10-2017, 07:57 AM
Here are the aDNA results. It will take a while to digest. I have details on Father's line going back 4 generations. Al allmost Wicklow and Wexford - one from Limerick. Grandmother Murphy - from FTDNA aDNA I believe these Murphys to also be Z255. Mother is from Tipperary - mixture of Gaelic and Norman names. FTDNA indicates one Scandinavian ancestor within last 5 generations - I have some aDNA matches that have almost only Scandinavian names as their matches.

What is instantly remarkable is how much is attributed to places in the largest island in our archipelago

Europe 98.9%
Great Britain and Ireland 91.5%
Ireland 20.4%
Southeast England 16.8%
Cornwall 8.6%
Northwest Scotland 6.6%
South Central England 6.4%
North Wales 4.7%
North Yorkshire 4.6%
Cumbria 4.3%
South England 3.6%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 2.9%
South Yorkshire 2.5%
South Wales 2.4%
Central England 1.6%
Orkney 1.5%
Aberdeenshire 1.1%
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 3.6%
Europe (North and West) 4.7%
Scandinavia 4.7%
Europe (unassigned) 2.6%
Asia (South) 1.1%
Balochistan 1.1%

From what you have said it sounds like you have a large amount of Irish ancestry so i would expect your Ireland % to be higher?

Might this be an issue with the LivingDNA test for Irish people and maybe their Irish dataset?

sktibo
02-10-2017, 09:06 AM
From what you have said it sounds like you have a large amount of Irish ancestry so i would expect your Ireland % to be higher?

Might this be an issue with the LivingDNA test for Irish people and maybe their Irish dataset?

Based on what Cillkenny said about their background, it certainly seems like there could be a problem with the Irish dataset. IIRC Jessie ordered a test, so we'll know for sure if she gets below 90% Irish. I'd like to see if Cillkenny has done an Ancestry DNA test and if so what they scored on that for comparison

CillKenny
02-10-2017, 09:09 AM
I was at talk last year by Ed Gilbert of the Irish DNA project. First split is clearly north of a line from Dublin to Clare. So mostly being southern it could be treating all Ireland as one group has that impact of finding more affinity with southern parts of the UK.

02-10-2017, 09:13 AM
I have got my results from LivingDNA , so here is my results and analysis.

Y-DNA: R-Z283 - Interesting and confirms 23andme result of R1a1a1, but R-Z283, is further downstream, I would have liked it a little more downstream, but am happy with the result, Suppose it confirms Norse Viking connection way way back.

mtDNA: J2a1a1a - Confirms again the result from 23andme, so its heartening both agree.

Living DNA writes allot about the haplogroups with this, but for me it would be nice also to be able to focus in on the subclades, and find out more specifics about the subclades, sort of a dual view option, one general for haplogroup, and another focusing on your subclade.

Autosum (Family Ancestry Map)
A few little shocks:-
Europe 100% (No shocks here)
Great Britain and Ireland 96.3% ( No shocks here, really, there was a story about a British soldier marrying a French women in the Napoleonic wars, cant see it here)
South Wales 49.4% ( No shocks here, actually I really expected more)
South Yorkshire 9.9% ( Wow this is a shock.... no known ancestry after 1800s, now i know why I like Emmerdale....)
North Wales 8.7% ( another little shock, no known ancestry after 1800s from up here, but its beautiful up here, I love it.)
Cornwall 6.6% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, but love Conrwall, more Brythonic)
Cumbria 4.8% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s... more Brythonic)
Northwest Scotland 4.3% ( I was definitely expecting a Scottish connection, to the "Grant Clan", Mums surname was "Grant", but they have lived in S. Wales since before 1800s) So I suppose this confirms my Highlands Scots connection.
Northumbria 3.5% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s)
South Central England 3.5% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, but the Bristol area is very close to Wales)
Aberdeenshire 1.6% (Again could be related to the Grant Clan a Scottish connection, Mums surname was "Grant", but they have lived in S. Wales since before 1800s)
South Wales Border 1.5% ( Not really surprised by this, as its so close to S.wales)
North Yorkshire 1.4% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, really seems to be a Yorkshire connection)
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 1.4% ( Interesting, I am missing my Irish Expectation for a paper trail of a Great great grandfather, "Michael Lane was born in 1815 in Cork, Cork.1815 • Boherbue, County Cork, Ireland" .. Now I have no idea if this is real or....??
Europe (unassigned) 3.7% ( maybe the French women is here?)
13941
Very interesting results and allot to think about, overall I am looking very "Brythonic".

ollie444
02-10-2017, 09:24 AM
I have got my results from LivingDNA , so here is my results and analysis.

Y-DNA: R-Z283 - Interesting and confirms 23andme result of R1a1a1, but R-Z283, is further downstream, I would have liked it a little more downstream, but am happy with the result, Suppose it confirms Norse Viking connection way way back.

mtDNA: J2a1a1a - Confirms again the result from 23andme, so its heartening both agree.

Living DNA writes allot about the haplogroups with this, but for me it would be nice also to be able to focus in on the subclades, and find out more specifics about the subclades, sort of a dual view option, one general for haplogroup, and another focusing on your subclade.

Autosum (Family Ancestry Map)
A few little shocks:-
Europe 100% (No shocks here)
Great Britain and Ireland 96.3% ( No shocks here, really, there was a story about a British soldier marrying a French women in the Napoleonic wars, cant see it here)
South Wales 49.4% ( No shocks here, actually I really expected more)
South Yorkshire 9.9% ( Wow this is a shock.... no known ancestry after 1800s, now i know why I like Emmerdale....)
North Wales 8.7% ( another little shock, no known ancestry after 1800s from up here, but its beautiful up here, I love it.)
Cornwall 6.6% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, but love Conrwall, more Brythonic)
Cumbria 4.8% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s... more Brythonic)
Northwest Scotland 4.3% ( I was definitely expecting a Scottish connection, to the "Grant Clan", Mums surname was "Grant", but they have lived in S. Wales since before 1800s)
Northumbria 3.5% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s)
South Central England 3.5% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, but the Bristol area is very close to Wales)
Aberdeenshire 1.6% (Again could be related to the Grant Clan a Scottish connection, Mums surname was "Grant", but they have lived in S. Wales since before 1800s)
South Wales Border 1.5% ( Not really surprised by this, as its so close to S.wales)
North Yorkshire 1.4% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, really seems to be a Yorkshire connection)
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 1.4% ( Interesting, I am missing my Irish Expectation for a paper trail of a Great great grandfather, "Michael Lane was born in 1815 in Cork, Cork.1815 • Boherbue, County Cork, Ireland" .. Now I have no idea if this is real or....??
Europe (unassigned) 3.7% ( maybe the French women is here?)
13941
Very interesting results and allot to think about, overall I am looking very "Brythonic".

What percentage Welsh would you have said you were by paper trail?

Looking forward to getting my unassigned European in the future too.

sktibo
02-10-2017, 09:26 AM
I have got my results from LivingDNA , so here is my results and analysis.

Y-DNA: R-Z283 - Interesting and confirms 23andme result of R1a1a1, but R-Z283, is further downstream, I would have liked it a little more downstream, but am happy with the result, Suppose it confirms Norse Viking connection way way back.

mtDNA: J2a1a1a - Confirms again the result from 23andme, so its heartening both agree.

Living DNA writes allot about the haplogroups with this, but for me it would be nice also to be able to focus in on the subclades, and find out more specifics about the subclades, sort of a dual view option, one general for haplogroup, and another focusing on your subclade.

Autosum (Family Ancestry Map)
A few little shocks:-
Europe 100% (No shocks here)
Great Britain and Ireland 96.3% ( No shocks here, really, there was a story about a British soldier marrying a French women in the Napoleonic wars, cant see it here)
South Wales 49.4% ( No shocks here, actually I really expected more)
South Yorkshire 9.9% ( Wow this is a shock.... no known ancestry after 1800s, now i know why I like Emmerdale....)
North Wales 8.7% ( another little shock, no known ancestry after 1800s from up here, but its beautiful up here, I love it.)
Cornwall 6.6% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, but love Conrwall, more Brythonic)
Cumbria 4.8% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s... more Brythonic)
Northwest Scotland 4.3% ( I was definitely expecting a Scottish connection, to the "Grant Clan", Mums surname was "Grant", but they have lived in S. Wales since before 1800s)
Northumbria 3.5% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s)
South Central England 3.5% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, but the Bristol area is very close to Wales)
Aberdeenshire 1.6% (Again could be related to the Grant Clan a Scottish connection, Mums surname was "Grant", but they have lived in S. Wales since before 1800s)
South Wales Border 1.5% ( Not really surprised by this, as its so close to S.wales)
North Yorkshire 1.4% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, really seems to be a Yorkshire connection)
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 1.4% ( Interesting, I am missing my Irish Expectation for a paper trail of a Great great grandfather, "Michael Lane was born in 1815 in Cork, Cork.1815 • Boherbue, County Cork, Ireland" .. Now I have no idea if this is real or....??
Europe (unassigned) 3.7% ( maybe the French women is here?)
13941
Very interesting results and allot to think about, overall I am looking very "Brythonic".

I'd say you could be a fine example of a pre Roman Briton for sure. A few neat surprises in there, but nothing major by the look of it. Maybe your unassigned Europe is French... I got about 13% unassigned Europe and no French.. and there is definitely at least some French in me.
I think that south Yorkshire corresponds to the Brythonic kingdom of Elmet, and Northumbria corresponds to Brynach (well, before it became Bernicia). So there's a bit more Brythonic for you

CillKenny
02-10-2017, 09:41 AM
John, not sure how to interpret the y dna percentages. Reading more it looks like these percentages relate to R L21. Don't add up to 1 so what do they relate to - density of RL21 in that area? Seem low even then

02-10-2017, 09:57 AM
What percentage Welsh would you have said you were by paper trail?

Looking forward to getting my unassigned European in the future too.

Hi Ollie, If you would have asked me a couple of years ago, I would have said almost entirely Welsh 75% or something like that, My paper trail is not the best, but the tree I have compiled on Ancestry.co.uk is almost entirely South West Welsh, (except for an Irishman born 1815) but then I cannot get back beyond 1800s hit brick walls, everybody's got the same names, and everybody works in the steel mills, or heavy industry in llanelli, or farm labourers or paupers. Some things which point me away from all Welsh also is the surname "Grant", Scottish highland clan, but they were in llanelli even before 1800s, could be something to do with the jacobites, and my Y-DNA haplogroup as un Welsh R-Z283 (probably Norwegian originally)

02-10-2017, 10:02 AM
I'd say you could be a fine example of a pre Roman Briton for sure. A few neat surprises in there, but nothing major by the look of it. Maybe your unassigned Europe is French... I got about 13% unassigned Europe and no French.. and there is definitely at least some French in me.
I think that south Yorkshire corresponds to the Brythonic kingdom of Elmet, and Northumbria corresponds to Brynach (well, before it became Bernicia). So there's a bit more Brythonic for you

Regarding the Northumbria, and Yorkshire, I guess there is no way of knowing how long they have been in my DNA, if it is quite ancient as you suggest or more recent during the last few hundred years, but before paper trail and living memory.

avalon
02-10-2017, 10:03 AM
I have got my results from LivingDNA , so here is my results and analysis.

Y-DNA: R-Z283 - Interesting and confirms 23andme result of R1a1a1, but R-Z283, is further downstream, I would have liked it a little more downstream, but am happy with the result, Suppose it confirms Norse Viking connection way way back.

mtDNA: J2a1a1a - Confirms again the result from 23andme, so its heartening both agree.

Living DNA writes allot about the haplogroups with this, but for me it would be nice also to be able to focus in on the subclades, and find out more specifics about the subclades, sort of a dual view option, one general for haplogroup, and another focusing on your subclade.

Autosum (Family Ancestry Map)
A few little shocks:-
Europe 100% (No shocks here)
Great Britain and Ireland 96.3% ( No shocks here, really, there was a story about a British soldier marrying a French women in the Napoleonic wars, cant see it here)
South Wales 49.4% ( No shocks here, actually I really expected more)
South Yorkshire 9.9% ( Wow this is a shock.... no known ancestry after 1800s, now i know why I like Emmerdale....)
North Wales 8.7% ( another little shock, no known ancestry after 1800s from up here, but its beautiful up here, I love it.)
Cornwall 6.6% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, but love Conrwall, more Brythonic)
Cumbria 4.8% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s... more Brythonic)
Northwest Scotland 4.3% ( I was definitely expecting a Scottish connection, to the "Grant Clan", Mums surname was "Grant", but they have lived in S. Wales since before 1800s) So I suppose this confirms my Highlands Scots connection.
Northumbria 3.5% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s)
South Central England 3.5% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, but the Bristol area is very close to Wales)
Aberdeenshire 1.6% (Again could be related to the Grant Clan a Scottish connection, Mums surname was "Grant", but they have lived in S. Wales since before 1800s)
South Wales Border 1.5% ( Not really surprised by this, as its so close to S.wales)
North Yorkshire 1.4% ( Total shocker, no known ancestry after 1800s, really seems to be a Yorkshire connection)
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 1.4% ( Interesting, I am missing my Irish Expectation for a paper trail of a Great great grandfather, "Michael Lane was born in 1815 in Cork, Cork.1815 • Boherbue, County Cork, Ireland" .. Now I have no idea if this is real or....??
Europe (unassigned) 3.7% ( maybe the French women is here?)
13941
Very interesting results and allot to think about, overall I am looking very "Brythonic".

Would you say there were many English surnames in your family tree or is is mostly Welsh surnames?

You seem to have quite a bit from English regions that you weren't expecting so I am wondering if this is a LIvingDNA dataset issue again!

The POBI project map (modern boundaries) shows 1,648 samples from England, 162 from Scotland and N Ireland, 100 from Orkney, 75 from North Wales and 59 from South Wales so even allowing for England's much larger population, the dataset looks over-representative of England to me, so the large English dataset may be "pulling" people's results towards English regions with no known ancestry. I am not sure tbh, depends how the LivingDNA computer software, algorithms, etc, work.

02-10-2017, 10:07 AM
Would you say there were many English surnames in your family tree or is is mostly Welsh surnames?

You seem to have quite a bit from English regions that you weren't expecting so I am wondering if this is a LIvingDNA dataset issue again!

The POBI project map (modern boundaries) shows 1,648 samples from England, 150 from Scotland, 75 from North Wales and 59 from South Wales so even allowing for England's much larger population the large English dataset may be "pulling" people's results towards English regions with no known ancestry. I am not sure tbh, depends how the LivingDNA computer software, algorithms, etc, work.

Hi avalon, actually none English surnames (but I got no paper trail before 1800), all typically Welsh, Davies, Jones,Evans, etc etc, the only exceptions, that I have found have been "Grant", Scottish and "Lane", Irish.
The Grants were already in llanelli 1800, and the Lanes, came circa 1830s.

sktibo
02-10-2017, 10:20 AM
Regarding the Northumbria, and Yorkshire, I guess there is no way of knowing how long they have been in my DNA, if it is quite ancient as you suggest or more recent during the last few hundred years, but before paper trail and living memory.

I think it's possible they could represent more Welsh that was pulled towards England by a larger number of samples. Either that or they're close enough and the algorithm assigned them to you in place of Welsh. it could be legitimate, of course. I'm no computer scientist, and this is speculation

avalon
02-10-2017, 11:01 AM
I think it's possible they could represent more Welsh that was pulled towards England by a larger number of samples. Either that or they're close enough and the algorithm assigned them to you in place of Welsh. it could be legitimate, of course. I'm no computer scientist, and this is speculation

Agreed, like you I am no computer scientist, so we could be wrong about this and it isn't an issue with the data.

Sgdavies may just have some ancestry from these regions that goes back further than the paper trail.

In South Wales this wouldn't be too surprising given the history of migration during the industrial revolution but also when we consider that English influence and expansion in Wales goes back centuries.

ollie444
02-10-2017, 11:03 AM
Hi Ollie, If you would have asked me a couple of years ago, I would have said almost entirely Welsh 75% or something like that, My paper trail is not the best, but the tree I have compiled on Ancestry.co.uk is almost entirely South West Welsh, (except for an Irishman born 1815) but then I cannot get back beyond 1800s hit brick walls, everybody's got the same names, and everybody works in the steel mills, or heavy industry in llanelli, or farm labourers or paupers. Some things which point me away from all Welsh also is the surname "Grant", Scottish highland clan, but they were in llanelli even before 1800s, could be something to do with the jacobites, and my Y-DNA haplogroup as un Welsh R-Z283 (probably Norwegian originally)

Sounds like a nightmare!

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-10-2017, 11:26 AM
Would you say there were many English surnames in your family tree or is is mostly Welsh surnames?

You seem to have quite a bit from English regions that you weren't expecting so I am wondering if this is a LIvingDNA dataset issue again!

The POBI project map (modern boundaries) shows 1,648 samples from England, 162 from Scotland and N Ireland, 100 from Orkney, 75 from North Wales and 59 from South Wales so even allowing for England's much larger population, the dataset looks over-representative of England to me, so the large English dataset may be "pulling" people's results towards English regions with no known ancestry. I am not sure tbh, depends how the LivingDNA computer software, algorithms, etc, work.

I had less Welsh and more English than I thought but the problem is this is regional. Welsh Borders for example could have a mix of Welsh and English and some areas could be more Welsh than others like my ancestry from West Herefordshire? I have a lot of Welsh surnames from my Herefordshire line, Morgan, Bethel, Gough etc.
John

Mike_G
02-10-2017, 01:14 PM
Usual disclaimer for me: no paper trail so I can't verify accuracy.

Great Britain and Ireland 61.7%

Lincolnshire 10.7%
South Central England 9.8%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 6.6%
Cornwall 5.6%
East Anglia 5.5%
Ireland 3.4%
Northwest Scotland 3.2%
Northwest England 3.1%
Southeast England 3.1%
Aberdeenshire 2.6%
Central England 2.4%
North Wales 2.1%
Cumbria 2%
Orkney 1.3%

Europe (East) 36.5%

Baltics 31.3%
Mordovia 3.8%
Northeast Europe 1.4%

Europe (unassigned) 1.8%

Fairly messy British Isles results. I'm not surprised considering my ancestors probably migrated to North America a couple centuries ago.

I know this is a British Isles focus test, but it's very interesting that this is the first test that attempts to differentiate Baltic from the rest of Eastern Europe. My Eastern European in this test reflects my matches in other tests.

ADW_1981
02-10-2017, 01:28 PM
Hi Ollie, If you would have asked me a couple of years ago, I would have said almost entirely Welsh 75% or something like that, My paper trail is not the best, but the tree I have compiled on Ancestry.co.uk is almost entirely South West Welsh, (except for an Irishman born 1815) but then I cannot get back beyond 1800s hit brick walls, everybody's got the same names, and everybody works in the steel mills, or heavy industry in llanelli, or farm labourers or paupers. Some things which point me away from all Welsh also is the surname "Grant", Scottish highland clan, but they were in llanelli even before 1800s, could be something to do with the jacobites, and my Y-DNA haplogroup as un Welsh R-Z283 (probably Norwegian originally)

I believe there was a paper a few years ago that traced women growing up in either Iceland or Norway (by isotope analysis) but who died in Wales. I believe LivingDNA's "North Wales" reference history mentions this paper. I would agree that your YDNA is probably Norwegian in origin. This suggests a settlement theory rather than the slave theory that was been pushed for years.

02-10-2017, 01:57 PM
I believe there was a paper a few years ago that traced women growing up in either Iceland or Norway (by isotope analysis) but who died in Wales. I believe LivingDNA's "North Wales" reference history mentions this paper. I would agree that your YDNA is probably Norwegian in origin. This suggests a settlement theory rather than the slave theory that was been pushed for years.

Hi ADW_1981, I have not heard about that paper, sounds interesting, and even more interesting if true. Difficult to prove either theory, but allot of women would have been take against their will from UK and Ireland to Iceland/Norway, and one thing leading to another many would have gotten pregnant. Would be interesting to know the women who were found to have grown up in Iceland/Norway, and died in Wales, what their DNA was, if they were more Irish/British or Norse, or bit of both.
Do you have link to this paper?

Seems the sea was a busy place in them days, with trading in goods and people, creating colonies or trading posts, I also know that in South West Wales, there are lots of Islands with Norse names, "Skokholm, Skomer, Grassholm, Caldey", some towns also have norse names, "Tenby, Angle, Swansea" and many others.

ADW_1981
02-10-2017, 02:19 PM
Hi ADW_1981, I have not heard about that paper, sounds interesting, and even more interesting if true. Difficult to prove either theory, but allot of women would have been take against their will from UK and Ireland to Iceland/Norway, and one thing leading to another many would have gotten pregnant. Would be interesting to know the women who were found to have grown up in Iceland/Norway, and died in Wales, what their DNA was, if they were more Irish/British or Norse, or bit of both.
Do you have link to this paper?

Seems the sea was a busy place in them days, with trading in goods and people, creating colonies or trading posts, I also know that in South West Wales, there are lots of Islands with Norse names, "Skokholm, Skomer, Grassholm, Caldey", some towns also have norse names, "Tenby, Angle, Swansea" and many others.

In the most northern parts of Wales, the legacy of the Viking raids can be seen in place names, such as Anglesey. The name is thought to originate from old Norse, translating to “Ongull’s Island” (Snowdonia Guide, 2006). There is no doubt that many encounters with the Vikings were not pleasant , involving raids and violence. However, genetics and archaeology have helped us to reimagine the Vikings in Wales. When most people think of the them, they imagine murder, pillage, plunder and rape. However, it has become evident that some Vikings were actually quite peaceful and lived their lives in Wales as farmers and skilled workers. There seems to be little genetic evidence of Scandinavian Vikings in Welsh DNA today, suggesting their reputation for relentlessly raping vast numbers of women may be exaggerated. However, many Vikings took women back to Scandinavia rather than staying in Wales with them. Skeletons found in Llanbedrgoch were first thought to be Welsh people who fell victim to a brutal Viking raid. But with new scientific techniques, it was discovered that the skeletons originated in Scandinavia and had settled in North Wales for some time (BBC News, 2012). No doubt many of the Welsh’s experience of the Vikings was brutal, but this suggests that not all Scandinavian migrants had an agenda to pillage and plunder.

I know previously mtDNA I had been linked with viking age of Denmark and Iceland for example. The challenge is that in modern day, it tends to be heavily UK/Irish concentrated and only the aDNA in Nordic Europe seems to yield the high rates.

ollie444
02-10-2017, 02:22 PM
In the most northern parts of Wales, the legacy of the Viking raids can be seen in place names, such as Anglesey. The name is thought to originate from old Norse, translating to “Ongull’s Island” (Snowdonia Guide, 2006). There is no doubt that many encounters with the Vikings were not pleasant , involving raids and violence. However, genetics and archaeology have helped us to reimagine the Vikings in Wales. When most people think of the them, they imagine murder, pillage, plunder and rape. However, it has become evident that some Vikings were actually quite peaceful and lived their lives in Wales as farmers and skilled workers. There seems to be little genetic evidence of Scandinavian Vikings in Welsh DNA today, suggesting their reputation for relentlessly raping vast numbers of women may be exaggerated. However, many Vikings took women back to Scandinavia rather than staying in Wales with them. Skeletons found in Llanbedrgoch were first thought to be Welsh people who fell victim to a brutal Viking raid. But with new scientific techniques, it was discovered that the skeletons originated in Scandinavia and had settled in North Wales for some time (BBC News, 2012). No doubt many of the Welsh’s experience of the Vikings was brutal, but this suggests that not all Scandinavian migrants had an agenda to pillage and plunder.

I know previously mtDNA I had been linked with viking age of Denmark and Iceland for example. The challenge is that in modern day, it tends to be heavily UK/Irish concentrated and only the aDNA in Nordic Europe seems to yield the high rates.

Most of the population of Iceland's mtDNA is meant to be from Scotland and Ireland isn't it? Presumably they also just dragged women off to Iceland in raids.

C J Wyatt III
02-10-2017, 02:53 PM
Most of the population of Iceland's mtDNA is meant to be from Scotland and Ireland isn't it? Presumably they also just dragged women off to Iceland in raids.

and the Barbary Pirates dragged some women off from Iceland to Northern Africa and enslaved them.

DNA really gets around!

Jack

ADW_1981
02-10-2017, 03:17 PM
Most of the population of Iceland's mtDNA is meant to be from Scotland and Ireland isn't it? Presumably they also just dragged women off to Iceland in raids.

That's been the stereotype and what's been pushed. However, I'm not entirely sold on it, especially when isotope analysis discovered that the Northern Welsh individual grew up in a climate similar to Iceland and Norway. It would be highly circumstantial for that person or their mother to have been dragged from Britain to Norway/Iceland for a generation, and then dragged back to Wales. The other side of the coin is regarding the high rate of L21 in Norway and Iceland. We really need to look at deeper subclades that are young in age. I'm not sold that's due to slavery either.

A Norfolk L-M20
02-10-2017, 03:55 PM
This sort of localised autosomal DNA test for ancestry, for pretty tiny little sub regions has never been attempted before. It never was going to be perfect. We suspected a bias towards British Isles might occur. We suspected that there will be the usual difficulty separating recent family admixture from older background population admixture. Some of these problems we've seen on the other auDNA tests for ancestry by other companies. I know that some thought that it's too brave to try to narrow down to such small sub regions, when up to now, auDNA tests have only had limited success at determining regional ancestry.

What I think is also happening - and I've seen Living DNA in some of their web presentation hinting at it, is that it doesn't all hit the target perfectly bulls eye. Nearby sub regions often seem to produce small percentages surrounding the true ancestral sub region. My own results, focusing on Britain:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13948&d=1486741393

I really don't have any evidence of my English ancestry spreading out from Cornwall to Northumbria over the past 300 years. Of course I don't have a perfect biological record in documents. My East Anglian should have been higher though (I got 39%), that I'm pretty confident of - documents suggest 75 - 85% East Anglian. I'm not complaining at all - just trying to point out, that no autosomal DNA test for ancestry is perfect for populations heavily admixed such as the English. I'm concerned that people will expect PERFECT and "true" ancestry from this test. It won't, and no auDNA test will. Some European populations, such as the Irish / Scottish, are blessed for being easier to distinguish by test. Others on the Continent and here in South-East Britain, have seen a lot more recent stirring of the pot.

I'm happy with my results as being a worthy TOOL to ascertain British ancestry. Not perfect. But in my opinion, good value. What I am pleased with - is that our early results do seem to be suggesting that this test can perhaps, provide good indicators of British (and no doubt as more population project references hopefully improve), and other ancestries - that could become genuinely useful to researchers who have ancestry here - but just need those clues, as to which parts their British emigrants originated from.

CillKenny
02-10-2017, 05:10 PM
Based on what Cillkenny said about their background, it certainly seems like there could be a problem with the Irish dataset. IIRC Jessie ordered a test, so we'll know for sure if she gets below 90% Irish. I'd like to see if Cillkenny has done an Ancestry DNA test and if so what they scored on that for comparison

No. I have not done Ancestry test. It would be interesting to see what Heber got given he also was one of the first to take the test.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-10-2017, 05:55 PM
I believe there was a paper a few years ago that traced women growing up in either Iceland or Norway (by isotope analysis) but who died in Wales. I believe LivingDNA's "North Wales" reference history mentions this paper. I would agree that your YDNA is probably Norwegian in origin. This suggests a settlement theory rather than the slave theory that was been pushed for years.

There was also a strong Norwegian community in Cardiff in more recent times and the Norwegian Church still stands there, Roald Dahl the famous author was born in Cardiff. John

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjioYuRjIbSAhWlC8AKHYZHB1kQFggaMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FNorweg ian_Church%2C_Cardiff&usg=AFQjCNFlZYVFcdH9Tgr-8-4_MH5_R6FRJQ&sig2=VDqJm-HtHXn8Ai1tvOmvIQ&bvm=bv.146496531,bs.1,d.d24

Jessie
02-10-2017, 06:10 PM
Here are the aDNA results. It will take a while to digest. I have details on Father's line going back 4 generations. Al allmost Wicklow and Wexford - one from Limerick. Grandmother Murphy - from FTDNA aDNA I believe these Murphys to also be Z255. Mother is from Tipperary - mixture of Gaelic and Norman names. FTDNA indicates one Scandinavian ancestor within last 5 generations - I have some aDNA matches that have almost only Scandinavian names as their matches.

What is instantly remarkable is how much is attributed to places in the largest island in our archipelago

Europe 98.9%
Great Britain and Ireland 91.5%
Ireland 20.4%
Southeast England 16.8%
Cornwall 8.6%
Northwest Scotland 6.6%
South Central England 6.4%
North Wales 4.7%
North Yorkshire 4.6%
Cumbria 4.3%
South England 3.6%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 2.9%
South Yorkshire 2.5%
South Wales 2.4%
Central England 1.6%
Orkney 1.5%
Aberdeenshire 1.1%
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 3.6%
Europe (North and West) 4.7%
Scandinavia 4.7%
Europe (unassigned) 2.6%
Asia (South) 1.1%
Balochistan 1.1%

That's an interesting result for an Irish person. Not what I would have expected. A lot of your family is from areas of Ireland that have had more immigration from Britain in the past. I know that my mother from Tipperary had the most varied 23andMe than the rest of us. My father's family is from Sligo/Roscommon so I'd presume that has less foreign dna. Anyway it possibly looks like people from Ireland won't get 100% Irish after all.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-10-2017, 06:12 PM
Regarding the Northumbria, and Yorkshire, I guess there is no way of knowing how long they have been in my DNA, if it is quite ancient as you suggest or more recent during the last few hundred years, but before paper trail and living memory.

I get Northumbria and South Yorkshire as well. Based on where my recent ancestors have been (Welsh Borders mostly) I would say recent ancestry is unlikely. Western England into Wales yes, North East England, not so probable, but not impossible. These smaller percentages I think may sometimes reflect older ancestry or similarities between different regions based on early ancestry? John

02-10-2017, 06:23 PM
I get Northumbria and South Yorkshire as well. Based on where my recent ancestors have been (Welsh Borders mostly) I would say recent ancestry is unlikely. Western England into Wales yes, North East England, not so probable, but not impossible. These smaller percentages I think may sometimes reflect older ancestry or similarities between different regions based on early ancestry? John

Hi John, thats what sktibo was hypothesis was, possibly Dark age population movement between Elmet and Brynaich, or how ever its spelt, i.e Yorkshire and Northumbria. But it really is a mystery. Just could be English colonizers in the Norman market towns.

02-10-2017, 06:25 PM
That's an interesting result for an Irish person. Not what I would have expected. A lot of your family is from areas of Ireland that have had more immigration from Britain in the past. I know that my mother from Tipperary had the most varied 23andMe than the rest of us. My father's family is from Sligo/Roscommon so I'd presume that has less foreign dna. Anyway it possibly looks like people from Ireland won't get 100% Irish after all.

Will be really interesting when LivingDNA, adds the Irish geographical breakdown into the mix, maybe things might pan out, im still missing my great great grand dad from county cork on my results :beerchug:

Dewsloth
02-10-2017, 06:26 PM
Hi ADW_1981, I have not heard about that paper, sounds interesting, and even more interesting if true. Difficult to prove either theory, but allot of women would have been take against their will from UK and Ireland to Iceland/Norway, and one thing leading to another many would have gotten pregnant. Would be interesting to know the women who were found to have grown up in Iceland/Norway, and died in Wales, what their DNA was, if they were more Irish/British or Norse, or bit of both.


Most of the population of Iceland's mtDNA is meant to be from Scotland and Ireland isn't it? Presumably they also just dragged women off to Iceland in raids.


and the Barbary Pirates dragged some women off from Iceland to Northern Africa and enslaved them.

DNA really gets around!

Jack

^^And there we have Theory #14 as to how Mom's J2a1a1 mtDNA made its way to the Levant. :behindsofa:

02-10-2017, 06:49 PM
^^And there we have Theory #14 as to how Mom's J2a1a1 mtDNA made its way to the Levant. :behindsofa:

I still bet on the crusades in your case.

LauraHolland
02-10-2017, 07:22 PM
Hurrah I have my results :) (Thanks David Nicholson for helping)

Europe 100%:

Great Britain & Ireland = 83.6%
Europe Unassigned = 16.4%

139551395613957

The UK regions aren't quite what I expected, East Anglia is a hell of a lot lower than I thought it would be given at least 150 years there, I do have some paper trails in Cumbria and South England, but a lot further back than EA which is curious.

Bit disappointed at such a high amount being unassigned, but then on GEDMatch there are a lot of strange populations that crop up, maybe I am just a very weird mix?

A Norfolk L-M20
02-10-2017, 07:26 PM
Hurrah I have my results :) (Thanks David Nicholson for helping)

Europe 100%:

Great Britain & Ireland = 83.6%
Europe Unassigned = 16.4%

139551395613957

The UK regions aren't quite what I expected, East Anglia is a hell of a lot lower than I thought it would be given at least 150 years there, I do have some paper trails in Cumbria and South England, but a lot further back than EA which is curious.

Bit disappointed at such a high amount being unassigned, but then on GEDMatch there are a lot of strange populations that crop up, maybe I am just a very weird mix?

My East Anglian percentage was roughly 50% where I'd expect it based on traditional genealogy over the past 260 years or so. I also got a percentage of SE English, and I think that for starters is East Anglian that missed the target.

LauraHolland
02-10-2017, 07:32 PM
My East Anglian percentage was roughly 50% where I'd expect it based on traditional genealogy over the past 260 years or so. I also got a percentage of SE English, and I think that for starters is East Anglian that missed the target.

The issue is I have one side of the family which moved around a lot and then one that was static, I was also surprised at how low Irish was, I get 10% on Ancestry, but maybe it is more ancient?

A Norfolk L-M20
02-10-2017, 07:34 PM
The issue is I have one side of the family which moved around a lot and then one that was static, I was also surprised at how low Irish was, I get 10% on Ancestry, but maybe it is more ancient?

You say the Cumbrian is old - but that looks a good percentage, does it otherwise line up? you've got plenty of English there, good percentages. Plenty of areas to look for ancestry. Cumbria, South England, strong signals.

LauraHolland
02-10-2017, 08:06 PM
You say the Cumbrian is old - but that looks a good percentage, does it otherwise line up? you've got plenty of English there, good percentages. Plenty of areas to look for ancestry. Cumbria, South England, strong signals.

The big top 3 are at least 150 years ago on my paper trail if not more, which is the puzzling thing, especially as actually the Spanish line is more recent than those, and that doesn't show anywhere, I also just realised there is no Scottish at all, and thats fairly recent too.

ollie444
02-10-2017, 08:44 PM
Hurrah I have my results :) (Thanks David Nicholson for helping)

Europe 100%:

Great Britain & Ireland = 83.6%
Europe Unassigned = 16.4%

139551395613957

The UK regions aren't quite what I expected, East Anglia is a hell of a lot lower than I thought it would be given at least 150 years there, I do have some paper trails in Cumbria and South England, but a lot further back than EA which is curious.

Bit disappointed at such a high amount being unassigned, but then on GEDMatch there are a lot of strange populations that crop up, maybe I am just a very weird mix?

I've been told via email that there is some overlap between East Anglia and South East England. I have some ancestors from Norfolk but got 0% East Anglian, but far more South Eeast than expected.

Also, I read the theory about mtdna in Iceland being about 2/3 Irish and Scottish in a book by either Steve Jones or Adam Rutherford - don't know if that makes it any more credible to you folks?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-10-2017, 09:59 PM
Hi John, thats what sktibo was hypothesis was, possibly Dark age population movement between Elmet and Brynaich, or how ever its spelt, i.e Yorkshire and Northumbria. But it really is a mystery. Just could be English colonizers in the Norman market towns.

On the Northumbria I'm wondering whether my early "Y" ancestors entered that region as Angles. Surely their descendants would have picked up something specific to that region if that's where they were for a few hundred years or longer? Pure speculation of course but if I find a concentration of U106 Z326 in that region it could give a little more weight to the theory. :) John

chelle
02-10-2017, 10:05 PM
Hurrah I have my results :) (Thanks David Nicholson for helping)

Europe 100%:

Great Britain & Ireland = 83.6%
Europe Unassigned = 16.4%

139551395613957

The UK regions aren't quite what I expected, East Anglia is a hell of a lot lower than I thought it would be given at least 150 years there, I do have some paper trails in Cumbria and South England, but a lot further back than EA which is curious.

Bit disappointed at such a high amount being unassigned, but then on GEDMatch there are a lot of strange populations that crop up, maybe I am just a very weird mix?

YAY! So happy you finally got that cleared up and got to see your results. I know what you mean about the unassigned percentage being so high. I have that same issue on 23and me at about 15% as well. I was hoping this test would clear some of that up maybe. Are they meant to have the cautious and complete settings available by the end of this month? Good luck to us all on getting these mysterious unassigned percentages solved.

LauraHolland
02-10-2017, 10:36 PM
YAY! So happy you finally got that cleared up and got to see your results. I know what you mean about the unassigned percentage being so high. I have that same issue on 23and me at about 15% as well. I was hoping this test would clear some of that up maybe. Are they meant to have the cautious and complete settings available by the end of this month? Good luck to us all on getting these mysterious unassigned percentages solved.

Yes hopefully that may clear some things up, would be good if they do a results update too, but I know thats just me being impatient haha.

sktibo
02-10-2017, 10:57 PM
Yes hopefully that may clear some things up, would be good if they do a results update too, but I know thats just me being impatient haha.

One wait is over and now the next big wait begins... for complete results to be released

LauraHolland
02-11-2017, 12:15 AM
One wait is over and now the next big wait begins... for complete results to be released

Yes hopefully that will clear up the unassigned, it's quite a big chunk, do we know for sure that's the end of this mnth?

sktibo
02-11-2017, 12:27 AM
Yes hopefully that will clear up the unassigned, it's quite a big chunk, do we know for sure that's the end of this mnth?

Last I heard David Nicholson said they were on track to releasing them in Feb

chelle
02-11-2017, 05:57 AM
Last I heard David Nicholson said they were on track to releasing them in Feb

I hope they have the complete haplogroup with subclades and the complete region estimate sorted before they ship the books out to those who have ordered them, such as myself. ;)

Celt_??
02-11-2017, 03:22 PM
....I'm happy with my results as being a worthy TOOL to ascertain British ancestry. Not perfect. But in my opinion, good value. What I am pleased with is that our early results do seem to be suggesting that this test can perhaps, provide good indicators of British....ancestries - that could become genuinely useful to researchers who have ancestry here....

That certainly proved true for me, an American, with an excellent paper trail since 1738 in Virginia / West Virginia BUT no paper trail at all in the UK. Living DNA detected all of my ancestors in England, Scotland and Ireland. It made me search again for the marriages of my Milam ancestors to gain the full picture of my autosomal DNA origins. The Living DNA results are impressive!

Celt_??
02-11-2017, 03:41 PM
On the Northumbria I'm wondering whether my early "Y" ancestors entered that region as Angles. Surely their descendants would have picked up something specific to that region if that's where they were for a few hundred years or longer? Pure speculation of course but if I find a concentration of U106 Z326 in that region it could give a little more weight to the theory. :) John

This is MitchellSince1893's distribution map for U106 in England using FTDNA data:

13978

ADW_1981
02-11-2017, 04:29 PM
I only have 2.2% unassigned, so I can't really complain, and the test has been overwhelmingly accurate. If that 2.2% ancestry gets cleaned up that would be wonderful, but I'm happy either way. I'm surprised people who are actually living in England, and who claim ancestry there for hundreds of years have a less accurate result than myself.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-11-2017, 07:19 PM
This is MitchellSince1893's distribution map for U106 in England using FTDNA data:

13978

Thanks very much for that. There are some interesting questions there. I'm specifically interested in the distribution of Z326 to see if there are any clusters. There is a map but I don't think it is that up to date in terms of recent tests and probably the number tested from the UK is relatively small. John

Calas
02-11-2017, 09:11 PM
I'm surprised people who are actually living in England, and who claim ancestry there for hundreds of years have a less accurate result than myself.

It isn't surprising actually if you think about English history and the rather limited genetic background being used for ethnic standpoint.

I mean in the last 150 years, England has become a rather "mixed bag" of people. In fact, in some areas, this "mixed bag" aspect really started 300 years ago with modernization and has become prevalent since. Even the so called rural areas have seen movement as people from different rural areas travel around in pursuit of better lives. Tenants kicked off one landlord's property have to go somewhere they didn't just vanish into smoke. City dwellers who find themselves suddenly with peanuts to their name either stayed in the city or they moved out into the countryside on the hopes of better.

When you got to move, you moved or you died trying. Something many American settlers knew plenty about.


Then there's the fact that all this research is taking is grandparent level of rural people. Okay. That can mean something. But how many people know their ancestry past great-great maybe great-great-great grandparent level. How much is assumed all because they found John Doe at X Parish while 100 miles away John Doe of the same DOB is in Y Parish. I, for example, get a kick out of how my great-granduncle is constantly regarded in a rather Catholic area of Ireland as a "good Catholic" man in papers and documents. Had he not married a Catholic lass he'd have been a Protestant like those of his father's generation & his father's father's generation. As his own daugther said her father was no Catholic man.

Or as another example, I have a friend whose ancestry is rural Midlands. All his grandparents are born in the same town, 60 mile radius as used. He fits the criteria used in this ethnic DNA profiling. But if the researchers asked deeper than grandparent level they'd be going, maybe not. His great-great-grandparents are a mix of Scottish, Welsh, Swiss Germans, recent French, Brits from different areas, and even a woman of Spanish ancestry.


A bit long winded but your results don't mean accuracy per say. It just means you as a Canadian/American meet the modern "mix bag" criteria of area B and area C better than someone like A Norfolk whose older ancestry isn't so "mixed bag".

avalon
02-12-2017, 08:39 AM
That's an interesting result for an Irish person. Not what I would have expected. A lot of your family is from areas of Ireland that have had more immigration from Britain in the past. I know that my mother from Tipperary had the most varied 23andMe than the rest of us. My father's family is from Sligo/Roscommon so I'd presume that has less foreign dna. Anyway it possibly looks like people from Ireland won't get 100% Irish after all.

I'd like to see some more results from people with large Irish ancestry. I keep wondering if there is an issue with LivingDNAs Irish dataset and lack of samples, they have said they are working on this.

I guess the alternative explanation is genuine English historical genetic input into Ireland? My knowledge of Irish history is limited but in a broad sweep I guess the main historical impacts on Ireland would be the Anglo-Norman penetration of the Middle Ages and the Tudor conquest/plantations but I know very little about either.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-12-2017, 08:46 AM
It isn't surprising actually if you think about English history and the rather limited genetic background being used for ethnic standpoint.

I mean in the last 150 years, England has become a rather "mixed bag" of people. In fact, in some areas, this "mixed bag" aspect really started 300 years ago with modernization and has become prevalent since. Even the so called rural areas have seen movement as people from different rural areas travel around in pursuit of better lives. Tenants kicked off one landlord's property have to go somewhere they didn't just vanish into smoke. City dwellers who find themselves suddenly with peanuts to their name either stayed in the city or they moved out into the countryside on the hopes of better.

When you got to move, you moved or you died trying. Something many American settlers knew plenty about.


Then there's the fact that all this research is taking is grandparent level of rural people. Okay. That can mean something. But how many people know their ancestry past great-great maybe great-great-great grandparent level. How much is assumed all because they found John Doe at X Parish while 100 miles away John Doe of the same DOB is in Y Parish. I, for example, get a kick out of how my great-granduncle is constantly regarded in a rather Catholic area of Ireland as a "good Catholic" man in papers and documents. Had he not married a Catholic lass he'd have been a Protestant like those of his father's generation & his father's father's generation. As his own daugther said her father was no Catholic man.

Or as another example, I have a friend whose ancestry is rural Midlands. All his grandparents are born in the same town, 60 mile radius as used. He fits the criteria used in this ethnic DNA profiling. But if the researchers asked deeper than grandparent level they'd be going, maybe not. His great-great-grandparents are a mix of Scottish, Welsh, Swiss Germans, recent French, Brits from different areas, and even a woman of Spanish ancestry.


A bit long winded but your results don't mean accuracy per say. It just means you as a Canadian/American meet the modern "mix bag" criteria of area B and area C better than someone like A Norfolk whose older ancestry isn't so "mixed bag".

The English (British and Irish would be more accurate) Civil War had a big impact as well. It had more effect proportionate to the population than WW1. A lot of people were killed or displaced but that created new opportunities for some. My Y ancestors have been traced back to just after that period, but stuck on that as a lot of resords were destroyed or not kep during that period. Then of course you had similar effects from plagues, bad news for many, but new opportunities for some. John

Jessie
02-12-2017, 08:46 AM
I'd like to see some more results from people with large Irish ancestry. I keep wondering if there is an issue with LivingDNAs Irish dataset and lack of samples, they have said they are working on this.

I guess the alternative explanation is genuine English historical genetic input into Ireland? My knowledge of Irish history is limited but in a broad sweep I guess the main historical impacts on Ireland would be the Anglo-Norman penetration of the Middle Ages and the Tudor conquest/plantations but I know very little about either.

It will be interesting to see what this test shows up. There are a few Irish that have taken the test so hopefully they will post here.

avalon
02-12-2017, 09:25 AM
It isn't surprising actually if you think about English history and the rather limited genetic background being used for ethnic standpoint.

Then there's the fact that all this research is taking is grandparent level of rural people. Okay. That can mean something. But how many people know their ancestry past great-great maybe great-great-great grandparent level. How much is assumed all because they found John Doe at X Parish while 100 miles away John Doe of the same DOB is in Y Parish. I, for example, get a kick out of how my great-granduncle is constantly regarded in a rather Catholic area of Ireland as a "good Catholic" man in papers and documents. Had he not married a Catholic lass he'd have been a Protestant like those of his father's generation & his father's father's generation. As his own daugther said her father was no Catholic man.

Or as another example, I have a friend whose ancestry is rural Midlands. All his grandparents are born in the same town, 60 mile radius as used. He fits the criteria used in this ethnic DNA profiling. But if the researchers asked deeper than grandparent level they'd be going, maybe not. His great-great-grandparents are a mix of Scottish, Welsh, Swiss Germans, recent French, Brits from different areas, and even a woman of Spanish ancestry.

I'd agree that there were limitations to the POBI sampling of rural people. 4 grandparents born in the locality only takes us back to 1900 roughly and as you have correctly said people have been moving around Britain in significant numbers since long before 1900.

But, what the project did do was collect a large number of samples in certain areas, eg East Anglia, so even if the odd person in the dataset has gg grandparents that actually came from outside the area, the genetic analysis is still going to pick up a genetic signal for the area if the dataset is big enough and if enough people in the sample do have long term ancestry in the locality. Essentially, outliers like your midlands friend would become statistically insiginificant.

I think the main difficulty for the POBI/LivingDNA analysis is that the large red cluster is genetically homogeneous so teasing out differences different between different English counties, for example Norfolk and Leicestershire will be hard because they are so similar genetically in any case.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-g2VFtx6PcBs/VQnWc-aSXAI/AAAAAAAAKBA/pkBC6HzsOls/s1600/BritishClusters.jpg

A Norfolk L-M20
02-12-2017, 11:10 AM
We have to recall where this all started. POBI, almost as a side note to their study, told us that they that they could detect a regional pattern, that worked something akin to the old kingdoms of the Anglo-Saxon period, and that suggested the populations in these old kingdoms continued to localise long after they merged into the later medieval kingdoms such as England. We ancestry enthusiasts were all excited at this aspect, and now Living DNA, a business, has picked up the references, and developed their own 21 sub regions from them. This really is pushing auDNA testing for ancestry to an extreme that has not been attempted before. It won't, can't, be perfect - even the current regional auDNA tests are rarely perfect. It may well be the case that some parts of Britain have seen far more movement and migration over the past few hundred years than others. There is a quality limit to all references. The 4 x grandparent within a local zone rule, and bias towards rural samples, is very good. I'm not sure that the references used by some other DNA for ancestry businesses are such high quality. It sets a new benchmark. however, sure, it isn't a perfect rule, but finding people with a proven ancestry extending back 300 years is going to be rather difficult, actually, pretty impossible.

Calas
02-12-2017, 11:29 AM
But, what the project did do was collect a large number of samples in certain areas, eg East Anglia, so even if the odd person in the dataset has gg grandparents that actually came from outside the area, the genetic analysis is still going to pick up a genetic signal for the area if the dataset is big enough and if enough people in the sample do have long term ancestry in the locality. Essentially, outliers like your midlands friend would become statistically insiginificant.

Oh, I am not denying that it has potential. The real oddballs wouldn't stand a chance. But if everyone is saying they are East Anglian where only 30% is actually from 300+ year East Anglia and the other 80% is from elsewhere how does one know? I mean the Scottish Highlands are a prime example. There is a lot of English movement in the last 300 years. So how many of those claimed "Scots" are actually British migrants? Get enough such migrants claiming to be Scottish and well there's your "Scottish" population.





http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-g2VFtx6PcBs/VQnWc-aSXAI/AAAAAAAAKBA/pkBC6HzsOls/s1600/BritishClusters.jpg


The Irish / western Scottish is a prime example. Very similar right? However, is that truly ancestral? Or given the presence of Northern English merely genetic similarity because of the simple thing known as the Planting of Ulster which saw southwestern Scottish and Northern English transplanted into Northern Ireland?

CillKenny
02-12-2017, 12:22 PM
I'd like to see some more results from people with large Irish ancestry. I keep wondering if there is an issue with LivingDNAs Irish dataset and lack of samples, they have said they are working on this.

I guess the alternative explanation is genuine English historical genetic input into Ireland? My knowledge of Irish history is limited but in a broad sweep I guess the main historical impacts on Ireland would be the Anglo-Norman penetration of the Middle Ages and the Tudor conquest/plantations but I know very little about either.

It would be great of more Irish testers posted their results. It would also be good if someone from Living DNA could explain the likely impact on these results when their Irish database is added.

Here are the surnames in my tree that I am aware of.

Father: Kenny, Murphy, Wafer, Conroy, Walsh, McDonnell, Caulfield, Dillon, Cahill, Breen
Mother: Noonan, Morrissey, Cantwell, McHenry, O'Brien

I have an overwhelming southern Ireland mix (McDonnell excepted) but in that there would be a good mix of names associated with the arrival of the Cambro Normans (Walsh, Wafer, Morrissey, Cantwell, Dillon) with Caulfield being of more uncertain Ireland/UK origin.

What was most surprising to me was that South East England was my second highest %.

MacUalraig
02-12-2017, 01:38 PM
Luckily they don't have any data from the Scottish Highlands anyway ;-)

But looking further south does anyone share my raised eyebrows at how almost everyone gets something for Cornwall? By my tallying its second only behind SCEng.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-12-2017, 01:44 PM
We have to recall where this all started. POBI, almost as a side note to their study, told us that they that they could detect a regional pattern, that worked something akin to the old kingdoms of the Anglo-Saxon period, and that suggested the populations in these old kingdoms continued to localise long after they merged into the later medieval kingdoms such as England. We ancestry enthusiasts were all excited at this aspect, and now Living DNA, a business, has picked up the references, and developed their own 21 sub regions from them. This really is pushing auDNA testing for ancestry to an extreme that has not been attempted before. It won't, can't, be perfect - even the current regional auDNA tests are rarely perfect. It may well be the case that some parts of Britain have seen far more movement and migration over the past few hundred years than others. There is a quality limit to all references. The 4 x grandparent within a local zone rule, and bias towards rural samples, is very good. I'm not sure that the references used by some other DNA for ancestry businesses are such high quality. It sets a new benchmark. however, sure, it isn't a perfect rule, but finding people with a proven ancestry extending back 300 years is going to be rather difficult, actually, pretty impossible.

You are right Norfolk, this is all new territory and very encouraging, it suggests some exciting possibilities with more testing and analysis, maybe different ideas will emerge. I have to say it was certainly worth the money compared to some other options available. If I were just starting on DNA testing, as a British person, this is where I would start. John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-12-2017, 01:52 PM
Luckily they don't have any data from the Scottish Highlands anyway ;-)

But looking further south does anyone share my raised eyebrows at how almost everyone gets something for Cornwall? By my tallying its second only behind SCEng.

I can't speak for other people but I did mentioned elsewhere that I wouldn't expect Cornish ancestry although I'm not far away in South Wales. My guess is like the NW and SW Scottish I had it may show population similarities in different regions from quite some way back, although I admit I don't understand the methods used. Wales and Cornwall obviously have "Celtic" connections but you also have A/S or "Germanic" influences (proprtions) in parts of Wales, Cornwall and N/Western Scotland? The other alternative is that we have recent ancestry we don't know about. :) John

A Norfolk L-M20
02-12-2017, 05:08 PM
I can't speak for other people but I did mentioned elsewhere that I wouldn't expect Cornish ancestry although I'm not far away in South Wales. My guess is like the NW and SW Scottish I had it may show population similarities in different regions from quite some way back, although I admit I don't understand the methods used. Wales and Cornwall obviously have "Celtic" connections but you also have A/S or "Germanic" influences (proprtions) in parts of Wales, Cornwall and N/Western Scotland? The other alternative is that we have recent ancestry we don't know about. :) John

Even I get Cornish!

avalon
02-12-2017, 05:29 PM
Oh, I am not denying that it has potential. The real oddballs wouldn't stand a chance. But if everyone is saying they are East Anglian where only 30% is actually from 300+ year East Anglia and the other 80% is from elsewhere how does one know? I mean the Scottish Highlands are a prime example. There is a lot of English movement in the last 300 years. So how many of those claimed "Scots" are actually British migrants? Get enough such migrants claiming to be Scottish and well there's your "Scottish" population.


I take your point about the Scottish Highlands, I've wondered myself before about the genetic impact of the Highland clearances. Given that so many Highlanders had to leave, it must have left a significant genetic void in the population. But this is a major, well known historical event.

I think East Anglia is a different case though. A Norfolk will correct me, but East Anglia strikes me as the sort of place that has had a fairly stable, rural population for hundreds of years. Sure, of course people have left East Anglia and plenty have moved in but if you take a big enough sample size from East Anglia, as POBI presumably did, then enough of those people are likely to have long term ancestry in East Anglia, so that LivingDNA will be able to detect the local genetic signal.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-12-2017, 07:42 PM
I take your point about the Scottish Highlands, I've wondered myself before about the genetic impact of the Highland clearances. Given that so many Highlanders had to leave, it must have left a significant genetic void in the population. But this is a major, well known historical event.

I think East Anglia is a different case though. A Norfolk will correct me, but East Anglia strikes me as the sort of place that has had a fairly stable, rural population for hundreds of years. Sure, of course people have left East Anglia and plenty have moved in but if you take a big enough sample size from East Anglia, as POBI presumably did, then enough of those people are likely to have long term ancestry in East Anglia, so that LivingDNA will be able to detect the local genetic signal.

South Wales Valleys is difficult so much movement into the area during the Industrial revolution. You would have a hard job to find people with all recent ancestry in the area. John

avalon
02-12-2017, 08:31 PM
I can't speak for other people but I did mentioned elsewhere that I wouldn't expect Cornish ancestry although I'm not far away in South Wales. My guess is like the NW and SW Scottish I had it may show population similarities in different regions from quite some way back, although I admit I don't understand the methods used. Wales and Cornwall obviously have "Celtic" connections but you also have A/S or "Germanic" influences (proprtions) in parts of Wales, Cornwall and N/Western Scotland? The other alternative is that we have recent ancestry we don't know about. :) John

I think there was a bit of Cornish migration to other parts of Britain in the 18th and 19th century (they had mining expertise) but this is the sort of thing that would probably show up in a well researched paper trail.

I have noticed that a lot of the LivingDNA results have low Cornish percentages so it could be like you said, some sort of ancient, Brythonic background ancestry.

avalon
02-12-2017, 08:35 PM
South Wales Valleys is difficult so much movement into the area during the Industrial revolution. You would have a hard job to find people with all recent ancestry in the area. John

Very true. Big industrial areas in Britain are going to be very tricky as generally they will be more admixed than the countryside. I have read somewhere that there was notable Irish presence in Methyr Tydfil in industrial times.

wombatofthenorth
02-12-2017, 09:10 PM
OMG !! I'm more friggin "British" than A Norfolk L-M20: Great Britain and Ireland - 85.3%

I am totally amazed!! National Geographic Geno 2.0 NG gave my Primary Population as German and my Secondary as Dutch. {A lot of German on the maternal sides.} This is a screenshot of my GENO 2.0 NG results: Western and Central Europe - 53%, Great Britain & Ireland - 38%, Asia Minor - 4% .

LIVING DNA results:

Sub Regional Results: Lincolnshire - 15.3%, Central England - 12.5%, Southeast England - 7.8%, Northwest England 7.5%, Northwest Scotland - 6.5%, South Wales Border - 4.9%, Devon - 4.8%, Cornwall - 4.1%, Aberdeenshire - 3.9%, Northumbria - 3.8%, Southwest Scotland & NI - 1.5%, South Wales - 1.4%, Orkley - 1.3%, Great Britain & Ireland (unassigned) - 9.9%, Europe (unassigned) - 8.8%. Near East / North Turkey - 4.4% World (unassigned) - 1.5%

PATERNAL: R - U152, L20 .

MATERNAL: H1, H1b


I'm wondering how my Living DNA autosomal results are possible after 6 generations in the USA ?!

Thanks a lot ADW_1981 !!

So your paper trail hinted a bit more towards German than English? If so, could this test simply be biasing close calls over to British & Irish more than French & German or West and Central European? So it might just seem way better to those with extensive UK ancestry but it not really being better overall?

Or does the result actually possible make sense?

chelle
02-12-2017, 09:29 PM
Even I get Cornish!

Am I the only one so far who hasn't gotten any Cornish? And all this Cornish talk is really making me miss getting a pasty in Newquay. :( I do wish the regional map still allowed us to see the regions we didn't get as well. What I mean is,I would like to see each area labeled on the map and then have it darken like it does when you select the area you want to zero in on. I have considered printing out the regional map and using a piece of tracing paper to see the overlap on a detailed map. Hope that makes sense. It is early here in Japan and my mind is still foggy. Need more coffee.

Dibran
02-12-2017, 10:32 PM
I just took my test with LivingDNA. Currently my DNA is being tested.

I tested with 23andme also. My results were as follows:

Y-DNA - R1a1a1(R-M417)

I'm curious to discover which subclade I will belong to. I'm assuming it will be south Slavic R1a. I'm Albanian with ancestry from Mirdita under the Pershpalaj tribe. More recently in Diber With the surname Koci(it was adopted as Koci 200 years ago from fighting the Ottomans). We have been in Diber for 300 years.

Interestingly I know there is a clan of Koci believed to originate from Epirus that was Albanian-Vlach-Greek hybrid that migrated to Arbanas In Bulgaria and then to Moldova where Vasil Lupu Coci the Moldovan prince would rule. His father was believed to originate from Epirus. Though I do not know how there could be a connection as my family claim from oral history we originate from Mirdita and that our name was originally Pershpalaj, only changed to Koci 200 years ago. Unless the dates are wrong and the name was changed earlier. My uncle claimed we changed the name 600 years ago. This would fall on line with the dates of the Koci from Epirus. Though this may be coincidental.

MtDNA - H11a

I'm assuming there won't be any further specificity than that for the mothers line. My moms mother is from Gjakova in Kosova. As far as her family knows they are Albanian. Her mothers surname is Gojani.

My moms family claim ancestry from Gjin Bua Shpata of Arta. A Albanian principality in the south. My mothers brothers haven't tested yet to ascertain paternal haplogroup. Gedmatch results seem to plot me closer to southern Albanians, Tuscans, and Northern Greeks. I certainly plot further from Kosovars than my father does on K23b.

Interestingly my father also plots closer to Greeks. As far as we know we have ancestry in northern Albania. However as I understand R1a is not very common among Ghegs.

European 98.5%
Southern European 97.1%
Balkan 94%
Italian 0.9%
Broadly Southern European 2.2%
Northwestern European 0.3%
British and Irish 0.3%
Broadly European 1.1%

Middle Eastern 0.8%
Middle Eastern and North African 0.8%

East Asian and Native American 0.5%
East Asian 0.4%
Japanese 0.3%
Mongolian <0.1%
Broadly East Asian <0.1%

Unassigned 0.3%

DNA.Land says I'm 95 percent Balkan and 5 percent Sardinian.

Wegene says I am 99.6% Balkan and not much else.

My GedMatch results are as follows. In not certain as to their degree of reliability.

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

Kit M635564

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 38.95
2 European_Early_Farmers 26.68
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 21.62
4 Near_East 6.21
5 North_African 2.57
6 South_Central_Asian 1.31
7 Ancestral_Altaic 1.03
8 East_Siberian 0.91
9 Melano_Polynesian 0.41
10 Archaic_Human 0.31

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Albanian_Tirana ( ) 3.68
2 Greek_Thessaly ( ) 4.16
3 Kosovar ( ) 4.4
4 Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) 5.63
5 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 5.87
6 Central_Greek ( ) 6.31
7 Greek_Northwest ( ) 6.45
8 Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) 6.85
9 Ashkenazi ( ) 7.07
10 Sicilian_Center ( ) 7.18
11 Romanian_Jew ( ) 8.32
12 Sicilian_East ( ) 8.43
13 Italian_Abruzzo ( ) 8.77
14 Ashkenazi_Jew ( ) 8.87
15 Greek_Athens ( ) 9.34
16 Greek_Phokaia ( ) 9.77
17 Greek ( ) 9.79
18 Sicilian_Trapani ( ) 9.79
19 Italian_South ( ) 9.88
20 French_Jew ( ) 9.94


This one makes some sense. Albanian being mentioned. My K36 confused me though. How do I go from 0.9% Italian to 30%? Perhaps I'm not interpreting this correctly. Some insight would be useful.


Eurogenes K36:

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 2.41
Basque 2.74
Central_African -
Central_Euro 4.97
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 7.48
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 6.10
East_Med 10.53
Eastern_Euro 4.01
Fennoscandian -
French -
Iberian 10.91
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 30.69
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 3.12
North_African -
North_Atlantic 3.38
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea -
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 5.47
West_Med 8.16






My fathers results from 23andme are as follows:

European 98.7%
Southern European 97.4%
Balkan 88.2%
Broadly Southern European 9.2%
Northwestern European 0.7%
British and Irish 0.3%
Broadly Northwestern 0.4%
Broadly European 0.7%

Middle Eastern 1.1%
Middle Eastern and North African 1.1%

South Asian < 0.1%
Broadly South Asian < 0.1%

Unassigned 0.1%

It appears the Italian, East Asian, and higher Balkan was contributed by my mother.

Didn't upload his data to wegene or DNA.Land.

The following are his gedmatch calcs.

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

Kit M504390

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 38.35
2 European_Early_Farmers 26.25
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 20.86
4 Near_East 4.89
5 South_Central_Asian 2.9
6 North_African 2.44
7 South_Indian 1.15
8 Paleo_Siberian 0.62
9 Ancestral_Altaic 0.47
10 Melano_Polynesian 0.42
11 Arctic 0.39
12 African_Pygmy 0.38
13 East_Siberian 0.29
14 Khoisan 0.19
15 Austronesian 0.19
16 Australoid 0.18
17 Archaic_Human 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kosovar ( ) 2.9
2 Albanian_Tirana ( ) 3.35
3 Greek_Thessaly ( ) 4
4 Greek_Northwest ( ) 5.08
5 Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) 5.12
6 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 5.65
7 Central_Greek ( ) 6.25
8 Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) 6.81
9 Ashkenazi ( ) 7.11
10 Italian_Abruzzo ( ) 8.31
11 Sicilian_Center ( ) 8.33
12 Ashkenazi_Jew ( ) 8.41
13 Sicilian_East ( ) 8.61
14 Romanian_Jew ( ) 8.65
15 Sicilian_Trapani ( ) 9.14
16 Bulgarian ( ) 9.23
17 Macedonian ( ) 9.66
18 Greek_Athens ( ) 9.7
19 French_Jew ( ) 9.78
20 Sicilian_Agrigento ( ) 9.79



Eurogenes K36:


Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 2.61
Basque 1.18
Central_African -
Central_Euro 2.85
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 8.08
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 6.96
East_Med 11.54
Eastern_Euro 3.49
Fennoscandian -
French 1.36
Iberian 8.35
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 34.59
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 6.13
North_African -
North_Atlantic 2.20
North_Caucasian 2.76
North_Sea -
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 1.27
West_Med 6.60

sktibo
02-12-2017, 11:07 PM
Am I the only one so far who hasn't gotten any Cornish? And all this Cornish talk is really making me miss getting a pasty in Newquay. :( I do wish the regional map still allowed us to see the regions we didn't get as well. What I mean is,I would like to see each area labeled on the map and then have it darken like it does when you select the area you want to zero in on. I have considered printing out the regional map and using a piece of tracing paper to see the overlap on a detailed map. Hope that makes sense. It is early here in Japan and my mind is still foggy. Need more coffee.

I'm also in the no Cornish club. Hi-five!
Got Devon but no Cornwall.

chelle
02-13-2017, 01:38 AM
I'm also in the no Cornish club. Hi-five!
Got Devon but no Cornwall.

Me too. I was actually surprised by getting 7% Devon. I had no idea it would be that high. I wonder how our percentages will change once the complete version is available. Which of yours do you expect to go up or down?

sktibo
02-13-2017, 01:51 AM
Me too. I was actually surprised by getting 7% Devon. I had no idea it would be that high. I wonder how our percentages will change once the complete version is available. Which of yours do you expect to go up or down?

I have no idea if any of them will go up or down? If so I suppose I'd expect my massive chunk of Northumbria, along with the cumbria, to be broken up into other sections. Not sure where they'd go though. One thing I'd expect to see is an actual percentage for France. It's kind of vague, so I actually have no idea what the "complete" mode will do. What do you expect for yourself?

chelle
02-13-2017, 02:24 AM
I have no idea if any of them will go up or down? If so I suppose I'd expect my massive chunk of Northumbria, along with the cumbria, to be broken up into other sections. Not sure where they'd go though. One thing I'd expect to see is an actual percentage for France. It's kind of vague, so I actually have no idea what the "complete" mode will do. What do you expect for yourself?

I would expect the 38% French to get broken into other areas and hopefully some sort of guess at the unassigned portions.

deadly77
02-13-2017, 02:41 AM
Well I'm currently in the no Cornish club. But that's because I'm yet to receive my completed results :P probably in early to mid March if the 10-12 week timeline from the kit received from the lab is holding true.

Seriously though, I'd be very surprised if I found any Cornish in my DNA. Most of my Northumbrian ancestors are as far away as you can get from Cornwall and still be in England. None of my other ancestor regions near there either.

chelle
02-13-2017, 04:41 AM
Well I'm currently in the no Cornish club. But that's because I'm yet to receive my completed results :P probably in early to mid March if the 10-12 week timeline from the kit received from the lab is holding true.

Seriously though, I'd be very surprised if I found any Cornish in my DNA. Most of my Northumbrian ancestors are as far away as you can get from Cornwall and still be in England. None of my other ancestor regions near there either.

Hahaha Yeah, no results yet will do that. ;) Fingers crossed your results get back on the early end of the time scale.

avalon
02-13-2017, 08:10 AM
Well I'm currently in the no Cornish club. But that's because I'm yet to receive my completed results :P probably in early to mid March if the 10-12 week timeline from the kit received from the lab is holding true.

Seriously though, I'd be very surprised if I found any Cornish in my DNA. Most of my Northumbrian ancestors are as far away as you can get from Cornwall and still be in England. None of my other ancestor regions near there either.

You might be surprised. ;)

The North East coalfield was one of the areas that the Cornish migrated to in the 19th century, although if you have a good paper trail with census returns I imagine it would have shown up in your research.

http://www.newstatesman.com/life-and-society/2007/01/cornish-names-british-family

Celt_??
02-13-2017, 01:25 PM
LIVING DNA results:

Sub Regional Results: Lincolnshire - 15.3%, Central England - 12.5%, Southeast England - 7.8%, Northwest England 7.5%, Northwest Scotland - 6.5%, South Wales Border - 4.9%, Devon - 4.8%, Cornwall - 4.1%, Aberdeenshire - 3.9%, Northumbria - 3.8%, Southwest Scotland & NI - 1.5%, South Wales - 1.4%, Orkley - 1.3%, Great Britain & Ireland (unassigned) - 9.9%, Europe (unassigned) - 8.8%. Near East / North Turkey - 4.4% World (unassigned) - 1.5%

PATERNAL: R - U152, L20 .

MATERNAL: H1, H1b

14029

14030




So your paper trail hinted a bit more towards German than English? If so, could this test simply be biasing close calls over to British & Irish more than French & German or West and Central European? So it might just seem way better to those with extensive UK ancestry but it not really being better overall? Or does the result actually possible make sense?

As I replied on page 2 of this Thread, My oldest know ancestor is a Thomas Milam found in the Piedmont of Virginia in 1738. We haven't found a bridge yet to the UK although we believe that our name, Milam, Millam, Mileham, Milom, etc are "British".

My grandfather Claude Milam is a 4th generation Milam in America.

Both my father, William Milam, and mother, Christine Miller, are descendants of different sons of William Fisher, a 1778 German emigrant to Virginia. Perry D. Fisher was my Grandmother Gerta Milam's father. And Mary Fisher Miller was my grandfather D. Wayne Miller's mother. Double dose of Fisher in my great grandparents.

My Grandfather D. Wayne Miller is a descendant of David Miller ( Mueller ) who emigrated from Hamburg Germany around 1820.

My grandmother Milam's maiden name was Casto, said to be Welch. Azariah Casto immigrated in 1696 to Bridgeton, New Jersey.

My grandmother Miller's maiden name was Cunningham, said to be from Dublin, Ireland. But could be Scottish.


Other names and nationalities in the Milam family include: the Mairs are Scot-Irish; the Lovejoy are English. Adam Aultz came to American from Germany in 1771 as a professional soldier. Nancy Koontz ( Kuntz ) was born in Mason County, Virginia (now in West Virginia) about 1820 and her father was George, probably of German descent. But I am certain that these folks with Germanic surnames had married a number of persons from Great Britain - so they were not pure German by any means. So in addition to a lot of Fisher, Mueller, Aultz and Kuntz German ancestry, there is my Milam English, Lovejoy English, Castro Welch, Cunningham from Ireland, Mairs Scot-Irish. And Living DNA picked up on all of it - pretty amazing.

Regarding Wambat's question: it's interesting that whatever "Germanic" autosomal DNA component exists, it was NOT interpreted as East Anglia or Southern England by Living DNA. It did find 7.8% Southeast England which could well e the Germanic found by GENO 2.0 NG. Perhaps Lincolnshire at 15.3% and Central England at 12.5% could represent some Germanic.

Here is a distribution map of R-U152 by county in Great Britain; it doesn't fit particularly well with my Sub Regional map above. Map courtesy of Mark Mitchell.
14031

deadly77
02-13-2017, 03:47 PM
You might be surprised. ;)

The North East coalfield was one of the areas that the Cornish migrated to in the 19th century, although if you have a good paper trail with census returns I imagine it would have shown up in your research.

http://www.newstatesman.com/life-and-society/2007/01/cornish-names-british-family

Thanks for the article. Definitely food for thought. I don't have any Cornish in my paper trail, although like a lot of people, some branches are more detailed than others. No traditionally Cornish surnames in my tree. If I do get a surprise, I'll look into it.

JMcB
02-13-2017, 05:52 PM
Me too. I was actually surprised by getting 7% Devon. I had no idea it would be that high. I wonder how our percentages will change once the complete version is available. Which of yours do you expect to go up or down?

Keeping in mind the vagaries of recombination and the completion of their Irish data base, I would expect that my Irish reading should go up by about 5% and that my South East England should decrease by approximately 6% and then be assigned to Germany. Although, I'm a little dubious as to whether they'll be able to make that distinction or not. I would imagine that a decent amount of my 8.3% unassigned British Isle would shift towards Scotland but I can't say that for sure. As the Scottish side of my family has been marrying into English families for the last few generations. And hopefully they'll take my Unassigned Europe & World and assign it to Italy, which is where I think it should be. And if they do detect my German ancestry, then my Great Britain & Ireland should drop from 92.3% down to around 87%

14032 14033

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what happens.

P.S. I also suspect that some - or maybe all - of my Cumbria is really from Galloway but they do make allowance for that in their technical note.

JMcB
02-13-2017, 06:41 PM
Has anyone noticed that different people get different regional color schemes on their results.

I believe this is Celt_??'s screen shot from post #98 above, next to my results.

14034 14035

As the kids used to say; what's up with that!? ;-)

chelle
02-13-2017, 07:24 PM
Has anyone noticed that different people get different regional color schemes on their results.

I believe this is Celt_??'s screen shot from post #98 above, next to my results.

14034 14035

As the kids used to say; what's up with that!? ;-)

I thought I noticed that last night looking at someone else's results too.

jortita
02-14-2017, 03:58 AM
I received my results two weeks ahead of schedule and have attached my autosomal map

The ancestry breakdown is

South Asia 66.4%
Indian Subcontinent 56.5%
Pashtun 8.4%
Burusho 1.5%

Asia East 21.9%
North China 11.8%
Southwest China 5%
Southeast Asia 2.7%
South China 2.4%

World (unassigned) 4.8%

Further unassigned 6.9%

These results are quite different from Ancestry and FTDNA/Geno as the two did not provide such detailed breakdown on my East Asian Ancestry. I am not sure about the nearly 12% North China ancestry as my known ancestry is more Southwest China and Southeast Asia.

My YDNA is identified as R-Z93 which is consistent with both my Geno 2.0 and my FTDNA Y DNA 67 Test. My MTDNA is shown as M5 which is very different from both Geno 2.0 next gen and FTDNA Full MTDNA test which pointed to M13C

It seems they are still making improvements and would be curious to see where my significant unassigned will be assigned

14054

AnnieD
02-14-2017, 06:49 AM
American here - Can I post on a British Isles thread if I'm 89.5% British on the new Living DNA test? ;) My results just came into today ... Still mostly British after all of these years in the "Melting Pot." :) I jumped into genetic genealogy back in 2014 to see how Scottish or English I might be (& whatever else might be a surprise)... long before I ever heard of a POBI study that would dispel centuries of "Celtic" identify. Figures I would cluster at opposite ends of the kingdom in S. England & NW Scotland, so it looks like I can keep playing "Greensleeves" & "Scarborough Fair" on my Celtic folk harp. :music:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14058&stc=1

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14059&stc=1
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14060&stc=1
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14061&stc=1
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14062&stc=1
These results seem to correlate well with documented British Isles patterns in early America according to the new Genetic Communities feature in beta mode at AncestryDNA. For those interested in genetics of British diaspora in American colonies, I started a thread about the new feature on this forum:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9274-AncestryDNA-New-DNA-Origins-Genetic-Communities-Sneak-Preview&goto=newpost

Thus far, I've confirmed only 1 non-British ancestor, but he was from W. Central Germany and married a Scottish lass before immigrating to America (so that almost doesn't count ;)). Another ancestor may be from Saxony, Germany region and another may be from Belgium pending more research. Only 1 known Irish lass in the family tree thus far.

According to my 2 genetic communities in southern USA states, my ancestors cluster in regions settled by English (from landed gentry to "impoverished"), Scottish, Scots-Irish, Welsh and Germans from mostly SW Germany and lesser Salzburgers and Moravians. Apparently Irish did not settle as heavily in this region of USA which thus far seems consistent with my lower Irish score on various tests.

sktibo
02-14-2017, 09:53 AM
American here - Can I post on a British Isles thread if I'm 89.5% British on the new Living DNA test? ;) My results just came into today ... Still mostly British after all of these years in the "Melting Pot." :) I jumped into genetic genealogy back in 2014 to see how Scottish or English I might be (& whatever else might be a surprise)... long before I ever heard of a POBI study that would dispel centuries of "Celtic" identify. Figures I would cluster at opposite ends of the kingdom in S. England & NW Scotland, so it looks like I can keep playing "Greensleeves" & "Scarborough Fair" on my Celtic folk harp. :music:

These results seem to correlate well with documented British Isles patterns in early America according to the new Genetic Communities feature in beta mode at AncestryDNA. For those interested in genetics of British diaspora in American colonies, I started a thread about the new feature on this forum:

Thus far, I've confirmed only 1 non-British ancestor, but he was from W. Central Germany and married a Scottish lass before immigrating to America (so that almost doesn't count ;)). Another ancestor may be from Saxony, Germany region and another may be from Belgium pending more research. Only 1 known Irish lass in the family tree thus far.

According to my 2 genetic communities in southern USA states, my ancestors cluster in regions settled by English (from landed gentry to "impoverished"), Scottish, Scots-Irish, Welsh and Germans from mostly SW Germany and lesser Salzburgers and Moravians. Apparently Irish did not settle as heavily in this region of USA which thus far seems consistent with my lower Irish score on various tests.

Hey AnnieD, awesome to see your results here. Would you mind posting a quick percentage of your paper trail for us to compare? Thanks!

A Norfolk L-M20
02-14-2017, 10:59 AM
American here - Can I post on a British Isles thread if I'm 89.5% British on the new Living DNA test? ;) My results just came into today ... Still mostly British after all of these years in the "Melting Pot." :) I jumped into genetic genealogy back in 2014 to see how Scottish or English I might be (& whatever else might be a surprise)... long before I ever heard of a POBI study that would dispel centuries of "Celtic" identify. Figures I would cluster at opposite ends of the kingdom in S. England & NW Scotland, so it looks like I can keep playing "Greensleeves" & "Scarborough Fair" on my Celtic folk harp. :music:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14058&stc=1

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14059&stc=1
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14060&stc=1
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14061&stc=1
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14062&stc=1
These results seem to correlate well with documented British Isles patterns in early America according to the new Genetic Communities feature in beta mode at AncestryDNA. For those interested in genetics of British diaspora in American colonies, I started a thread about the new feature on this forum:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9274-AncestryDNA-New-DNA-Origins-Genetic-Communities-Sneak-Preview&goto=newpost

Thus far, I've confirmed only 1 non-British ancestor, but he was from W. Central Germany and married a Scottish lass before immigrating to America (so that almost doesn't count ;)). Another ancestor may be from Saxony, Germany region and another may be from Belgium pending more research. Only 1 known Irish lass in the family tree thus far.

According to my 2 genetic communities in southern USA states, my ancestors cluster in regions settled by English (from landed gentry to "impoverished"), Scottish, Scots-Irish, Welsh and Germans from mostly SW Germany and lesser Salzburgers and Moravians. Apparently Irish did not settle as heavily in this region of USA which thus far seems consistent with my lower Irish score on various tests.

Annie, you're more British on DNA than I am! Good results, some good indication of British origin and congratulations on the Scottish. Thanks for sharing.

Celt_??
02-14-2017, 04:15 PM
I received my results two weeks ahead of schedule and have attached my autosomal map.... I am not sure about the nearly 12% North China ancestry as my known ancestry is more Southwest China and Southeast Asia.....My YDNA is identified as R1a R-Z93

14054

Here in the USA, public television (PBS) had an interesting program entitled "NOVA: Secrets of the Sky Tombs" of India. DNA from the ancient bones determined that their Haplogroup was from a Chinese population who had crossed the Himalayan Mountains from the north.

Here is a 30 sec. bit on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zS_ALdf2e8

Google: "Secrets of the Sky Tombs"

Celt_??
02-14-2017, 04:21 PM
AnnieD - would you mind uploading your Sub Regional map? Thank you

ADW_1981
02-14-2017, 07:10 PM
1 gen
mother - Canada
father - Canada

2 gen
Gurr - Faversham Kent (SE England)
Beech - Canada
Wood - Canada
Gould - Bath, Somerset (SC England)

3 gen
Gurr - Faversham (SE England)
Thomas - Unknown
Beech - London (SE England)
Telling - Harwell, Berkshire (SC England)
Wood - London (SE England)
Scott - Canada "Unknown"
Gould - Bath, Somerset (SC England)
Richmond - Warwickshire (Central England)

4gen
Dimbleby- Yorkshire
Wood - London (SE England)
Scott - Unknown
Holman - Camborne, Cornwall (Cornwall)
Gould - Somerset (SC England)
Whittock -Somerset (SC England)
Richmond-Warwickshire (Central England)
Faulkner-Worcestershire (SW Borders)
Telling - Gloucestershire (SW Borders)
Day - Berkshire (SC England)
Beech - Lewes Sussex (SE England)
Gurr - Faversham, Kent (SE England)
Hodge - Faversham Kent (SE England)
Thomas father -Unknown
Thomas mother- Unknown
Beech wife - Unknown

Still some unknowns, but overall very accurate.
Lining it up with the ancestry report. Obviously some variation due to proximity to adjacent regions and where the town is situated in the cluster, but nothing largely different.

Europe 98.9%
Great Britain and Ireland 97.9%
----------------------------------------
Southeast England 31.5%
East Anglia 11.3%
Cornwall 10.7%
Central England 10.3%
Devon 5.1%
North Yorkshire 5.1%
South Wales Border 4.6%
South Central England 4.5%
Northwest England 3.5%
North Wales 2.3%
Northumbria 1.9%
Orkney 1.7%
South England 1.3%

Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 3.9%
----------------------------------------------
Europe (unassigned) 1.1%
World (unassigned) 1.1%

A Norfolk L-M20
02-14-2017, 09:24 PM
That looks pretty good again.

AnnieD
02-15-2017, 04:37 AM
AnnieD - would you mind uploading your Sub Regional map? Thank you

Not at all ... here you are. Pretty colorful. ;)

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14082&stc=1

I noted that this section refers to the results representing 4-5 generations back. Then another section references 5-6 generations back. Therefore, it seems safe to use an average 5 generations back as a general time-frame.

Family Ancestry Map

"Your family ancestry map shows the areas of the world where you share genetic ancestry in recent times (4-5 generations)."

AnnieD
02-15-2017, 05:28 AM
That looks pretty good again.

Yes, ADW_1981's results seem nearly spot-on compared with his recorded paper trail to my eye, at least from this side of the Big Pond. :) I've only been to Britain twice, so the migration patterns and names of tribes and customs in the population families have been quite a page turner!

On that note, would any one else be keen to see a listing of all of the Family Ancestry descriptions just for history sake? It seems that the Living DNA app only shows the populations for which you have a match. If others are interested, we could find or start a thread (if this one wanted to focus just on quantitative results) and make a living history "book" of sorts with all of the population categories. As an example, my results include Devon which more northern-testing members may not get. Yet, it has an apparent unique genetic signature that straddles the SW - SE England divide:

"This has resulted in Devon representing a distinct genetic signature within the British Isles, with different ancestry from both Cornwall to the west and the rest of England to the East. Devon’s position on the border between Celtic and Germanic populations has influenced the genetics of the Devonians – its geographic location enabled its people to resist against invaders for longer than most, leading to a stronger connection to Britain’s ancient past."

For those curious about the Roman genetic signature, a few of my populations consistently state there is no discernible trace of their legacy thus far:

Southeast England:
"For now, no detectable Roman genetic signature has been found in Britain. Quite possibly this is due to ruling elites not intermarrying with local people (Coghlan 2015), or perhaps due to many so-called ‘Roman’ people originating from all across Europe.

Romans were present in the south of England area - they were probably resisted in hill forts like Hod Hill and Badbury Rings, although Hampshire and Dorset were still some of the earliest regions to be invaded (Smith 2000).

The Romans left Britain in 410AD, and soon after there was a big wave of migration and invasion from Germanic people now known as the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes."

Central England:
"The Romans appear to have left little in the way of a genetic legacy when compared to the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes, who established the powerful Kingdom of Mercia centred in this region."

jortita
02-15-2017, 09:31 AM
Would really appreciate if you could please let any of you know, whether you find these results to be closer to 23andMe or Ancestry DNA. I am asking, as my understanding is that both Geno 2.0 next gen and ancestry dna focus on deep ancestry whereas 23andMe is recent ancestry. I have personally only tested with Geno 2.0 next gen and Ancestry DNA and not 23andMe, thank you very much

sktibo
02-26-2017, 10:38 PM
Hey all, I was talking to a Scottish fellow who did a Living DNA test and was confused by his results... I found them to be particularly interesting and he agreed to let me share them here. His father's side is from the Isle of Skye and his mother's side is a mixture of Eastern Scottish and unknown Scottish. I believe all of his family has lived in Scotland as long as he is aware of.

14238

14239

Of particular interest is the massive amount of NW Scotland he was assigned, which I feel is very indicative that this cluster is Island and West Coast representative. He gets some Cornwall, because as I can tell, almost everybody gets some Cornwall. I also found the 12% Cumbria to be interesting, as it relates to my own LivingDNA situation. I'm starting to think that this region does indeed represent my missing Scottish percentages. If I count my own Cumbrian percentage as part of my Scottish, it lines up with my paper trail within one percent. Did anyone else get Cumbria when they were expecting Scotland?

My sympathies to our dear friend Calas, who has been dethroned by this gentleman as the top holder of the NW Scottish category.

ADW_1981
02-26-2017, 11:40 PM
Hey all, I was talking to a Scottish fellow who did a Living DNA test and was confused by his results... I found them to be particularly interesting and he agreed to let me share them here. His father's side is from the Isle of Skye and his mother's side is a mixture of Eastern Scottish and unknown Scottish. I believe all of his family has lived in Scotland as long as he is aware of.

14238

14239

Of particular interest is the massive amount of NW Scotland he was assigned, which I feel is very indicative that this cluster is Island and West Coast representative. He gets some Cornwall, because as I can tell, almost everybody gets some Cornwall. I also found the 12% Cumbria to be interesting, as it relates to my own LivingDNA situation. I'm starting to think that this region does indeed represent my missing Scottish percentages. If I count my own Cumbrian percentage as part of my Scottish, it lines up with my paper trail within one percent. Did anyone else get Cumbria when they were expecting Scotland?

My sympathies to our dear friend Calas, who has been dethroned by this gentleman as the top holder of the NW Scottish category.

I think his test is largely accurate. The bottom line is...whose paper trail is better? The commercial testers or the ones used as proxy populations?

sktibo
02-26-2017, 11:49 PM
I think his test is largely accurate. The bottom line is...whose paper trail is better? The commercial testers or the ones used as proxy populations?

Yeah, I was impressed. There's a few English populations in there which are probably noise but everything else seems to line up, when he said his dad's people were all from Skye I wasn't sure if he was exaggerating, but when I saw his 30.5% NW Scotland I knew it was true

ADW_1981
02-26-2017, 11:52 PM
I think we need to keep in mind the lowland Scottish population were heavily English and Norman influenced. Also, there was a non-Gaelic population of Scotland that isn't linked to Ireland, but rather old Britain.

sktibo
02-27-2017, 12:07 AM
I think we need to keep in mind the lowland Scottish population were heavily English and Norman influenced. Also, there was a non-Gaelic population of Scotland that isn't linked to Ireland, but rather old Britain.

Yeah, we're getting a much better idea of what these Scottish regions mean now thanks to all these test results, and I'm thinking it's a fair bit different from the lines living DNA has drawn on it's map.
First, NW Scotland looks like it's definitely west coast and islands. SW Scotland and NI looks like it goes a fair bit farther than defined on the map, judging by Calas and amerijoe's results. I'm betting Aberdeenshire extends a decent way beyond it's boundaries, and it looks like Cumbria is included in Scottish results. To what extent, I'm not sure. It could be lowlands, it could extend into central, but I think we can say it's Brythonic. As for Northumbria, I'm waiting for deadly77's results to make an assessment on that

alan
02-27-2017, 12:29 AM
one of these days I must do autosomal stuff. On my mum's side my paper geneaology shows virtually all my ancestors were from the same village I was born in going back 3 or 400 years. Not only that but they only ever married other fishing families which basically meant they mostly married people within literally 5 minutes walk of their own front door. This practice only really ended between the world wars. So on my mums side I am probably horribly imbred as all those fishing people who intermarried only had about 6 different surnames so I am sure they were constantly marrying 2nd or 3rd cousins. It is a good thing it did end IMO as it would have become genetically very bad. I am sure I can see a lot of them look rather like each other on 19th century photos. There is no doubt at all they would form a tight genetic cluster.

deadly77
02-27-2017, 12:42 AM
Yeah, we're getting a much better idea of what these Scottish regions mean now thanks to all these test results, and I'm thinking it's a fair bit different from the lines living DNA has drawn on it's map.
First, NW Scotland looks like it's definitely west coast and islands. SW Scotland and NI looks like it goes a fair bit farther than defined on the map, judging by Calas and amerijoe's results. I'm betting Aberdeenshire extends a decent way beyond it's boundaries, and it looks like Cumbria is included in Scottish results. To what extent, I'm not sure. It could be lowlands, it could extend into central, but I think we can say it's Brythonic. As for Northumbria, I'm waiting for deadly77's results to make an assessment on that

Yes, still waiting :) Should be relatively soon. Email said testing started Jan 4th so if the 10-12 week timeframe is valid, then I should expect in mid March.

JMcB
02-27-2017, 01:13 AM
Yeah, we're getting a much better idea of what these Scottish regions mean now thanks to all these test results, and I'm thinking it's a fair bit different from the lines living DNA has drawn on it's map.
First, NW Scotland looks like it's definitely west coast and islands. SW Scotland and NI looks like it goes a fair bit farther than defined on the map, judging by Calas and amerijoe's results. I'm betting Aberdeenshire extends a decent way beyond it's boundaries, and it looks like Cumbria is included in Scottish results. To what extent, I'm not sure. It could be lowlands, it could extend into central, but I think we can say it's Brythonic. As for Northumbria, I'm waiting for deadly77's results to make an assessment on that

According to the article that Solothurn kindly linked to a while back these are areas their Scottish regions are including.

For the British Isles ancestry LivingDNA results are provided at a sub-regional level which aggregates counties. The assignment of counties to sub-regions was provided to me by the company with the caveat that it "approximates what counties (as per currently known borders) fall within our regions and as such, there will likely be much overlap:"

Cumbria -- Cumbria, Dumfries and Galloway areas

SW Scotland and Nrn Ireland -- Northern Ireland/Dumfries and Galloway/Ayrshire/Lanarkshire and surrounding areas.

Aberdeenshire -- Aberdeenshire, Angus, Fife, Moray areas

Northwest Scotland -- Highland/Argyll and Bute/Stirling/Perth and Kinross areas

Northumbria -- Northumberland/Tyne and Wear/Durham/Scottish Borders/Fife areas

-------------------------

For the rest see:

Quote Originally Posted by Solothurn

View Post Results in from another blog:

http://anglo-celtic-connections.blog...a-results.html

sktibo
02-27-2017, 01:16 AM
According to the article that Solothurn kindly linked to a while back these are areas their Scottish regions are including.

For the British Isles ancestry LivingDNA results are provided at a sub-regional level which aggregates counties. The assignment of counties to sub-regions was provided to me by the company with the caveat that it "approximates what counties (as per currently known borders) fall within our regions and as such, there will likely be much overlap:"

Cumbria -- Cumbria, Dumfries and Galloway areas

SW Scotland and Nrn Ireland -- Northern Ireland/Dumfries and Galloway/Ayrshire/Lanarkshire and surrounding areas.

Aberdeenshire -- Aberdeenshire, Angus, Fife, Moray areas

Northwest Scotland -- Highland/Argyll and Bute/Stirling/Perth and Kinross areas

Northumbria -- Northumberland/Tyne and Wear/Durham/Scottish Borders/Fife areas

-------------------------

For the rest see:

Quote Originally Posted by Solothurn

View Post Results in from another blog:

http://anglo-celtic-connections.blog...a-results.html

Yes, but I now disagree with these descriptions to some extent. I'm going to draw a crude map to try and show how I think the boundaries might work. I'll also do my best to explain my logic.

JMcB
02-27-2017, 01:19 AM
Yes, but I now disagree with these descriptions to some extent. I'm going to draw a crude map to try and show how I think the boundaries might work. I'll also do my best to explain my logic.

I'm looking forward to seeing it.

Calas
02-27-2017, 01:55 AM
I think his test is largely accurate. The bottom line is...whose paper trail is better? The commercial testers or the ones used as proxy populations?

Given as I said elsewhere gedmatch happens to use people of rather mixed heritage beyond the asked-for-grandparent level the references are likely a little bit salty. It has been mentioned elsewhere on blogs and what not that some populations are skewed for FTDNA and 23&me in favor of this same mixed ancestry because they can't find anyone of authentic long-term ancestry. Besides there are, after all, a few notes in the various databases which say do not take the samples as a concrete example of the given population. Of course. Migration means unless it becomes law to DNA test you'll never get a truly accurate representation of a population.


Besides as MacUalraig & I have said this a few times what is Scotland now is by no means what Scotland was. In the last 300 years, Scotland has had considerable change in the "ethnicity" of its people.

But, for example, the 2011 Scottish census happened to have the largest percentage of people identifying as British first located in the areas that Living DNA happens to clump as "NW Scottish". Argyll. There's also the little fact that the lowest percentages of Scottish identified populations happened to be Edinburgh & Aberdeen which takes in the supposed "Aberdeenshire" of Living DNA. Not surprising in the slightest if you know Scottish history. The Clearances removed a large chunk of ethnic Scot and the Jacobite events didn't help.

That same census happened to make it pretty obvious how people perceive themselves. The highest percentage of people who more accurately referred to themselves as British/Scottish belonged to older generations. There was a reflective increase in "Scottish" among younger generations. I say reflective because duh they're Scottish as they were born in Scotland but it doesn't mean they're actually ethnic Scots. You can quite literally use that census to see how British and other immigrants over time became "Scottish".





I found them to be particularly interesting and he agreed to let me share them here. His father's side is from the Isle of Skye and his mother's side is a mixture of Eastern Scottish and unknown Scottish.



I am curious about this Isle of Skye chap. Does his father happen to speak Gaelic? The Isle does still have a number of Gaelic speakers.


Besides the fact that the guy scores such high Northwestern when he has unknown ancestry but eastern Scottish indicates such. Eastern Scottish has had its fair share of Lowland Scottish - British influenced Scots, as Scot is an English influenced dialect unlike Gaelic - over the generations. This would include Stirling, Kinross, & Perth all the supposed "NW Scottish" of Living DNA.


If you want the truth the most accurate representation of Scottish is likely going to be areas around Galloway. So that's be SW Scottish & Cumbria not NW Scottish. Why? Because out of all of Scotland that area has had, in a way, a more stable population than what became the rather dirt-cheap Highlands.

I mentioned earlier on my own posts I expected higher NW Scottish because I really wasn't thinking. Between moving & having to work overtime as a colleague quit without warning I didn't give much thought to what Living DNA's results represented. But thinking about it, well, NW Scottish on things like Living DNA liklely is not NW Scottish per say. The removal of ethnic Scots, the low population in the Highlands area per hectare, and the arrival of non-Scottish people widely in these areas means, as indicated, most of the population is likely more British than Scottish. Unless, of course, they've found the fountain of youth people don't live 120+ years per generation.




My sympathies to our dear friend Calas, who has been dethroned by this gentleman as the top holder of the NW Scottish category.

He's welcome to it.

Jessie
02-27-2017, 02:28 AM
Given as I said elsewhere gedmatch happens to use people of rather mixed heritage beyond the asked-for-grandparent level the references are likely a little bit salty. It has been mentioned elsewhere on blogs and what not that some populations are skewed for FTDNA and 23&me in favor of this same mixed ancestry because they can't find anyone of authentic long-term ancestry. Besides there are, after all, a few notes in the various databases which say do not take the samples as a concrete example of the given population. Of course. Migration means unless it becomes law to DNA test you'll never get a truly accurate representation of a population.


Besides as MacUalraig & I have said this a few times what is Scotland now is by no means what Scotland was. In the last 300 years, Scotland has had considerable change in the "ethnicity" of its people.

But, for example, the 2011 Scottish census happened to have the largest percentage of people identifying as British first located in the areas that Living DNA happens to clump as "NW Scottish". Argyll. There's also the little fact that the lowest percentages of Scottish identified populations happened to be Edinburgh & Aberdeen which takes in the supposed "Aberdeenshire" of Living DNA. Not surprising in the slightest if you know Scottish history. The Clearances removed a large chunk of ethnic Scot and the Jacobite events didn't help.

That same census happened to make it pretty obvious how people perceive themselves. The highest percentage of people who more accurately referred to themselves as British/Scottish belonged to older generations. There was a reflective increase in "Scottish" among younger generations. I say reflective because duh they're Scottish as they were born in Scotland but it doesn't mean they're actually ethnic Scots. You can quite literally use that census to see how British and other immigrants over time became "Scottish".




LivingDNA is using the PoBI dataset and people had to have proven links to areas such as all 4 grandparents born in the same area and this had to be verified by documentation so I would presume that the areas are a fairly accurate representation. I remember reading that the use of all 4 Grandparents would push the time period back to the 1840s before the great population movements of the 20th Century. They also looked at things like surnames. I know the Irish DNA Atlas is even more stringent with using 8 Great Grandparents.

You can read about it here.

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/pobipaper.pdf

sktibo
02-27-2017, 03:18 AM
If you want the truth the most accurate representation of Scottish is likely going to be areas around Galloway. So that's be SW Scottish & Cumbria not NW Scottish. Why? Because out of all of Scotland that area has had, in a way, a more stable population than what became the rather dirt-cheap Highlands.

I mentioned earlier on my own posts I expected higher NW Scottish because I really wasn't thinking. Between moving & having to work overtime as a colleague quit without warning I didn't give much thought to what Living DNA's results represented. But thinking about it, well, NW Scottish on things like Living DNA likely is not NW Scottish per say. The removal of ethnic Scots, the low population in the Highlands area per hectare, and the arrival of non-Scottish people widely in these areas means, as indicated, most of the population is likely more British than Scottish. Unless, of course, they've found the fountain of youth people don't live 120+ years per generation.

I think you might be onto something, as I've probably pointed out to death by this point, we've seen a lot of people here whose ancestries line up with the NW Scotland region and their results come out as SW Scotland / N.I. ... I didn't think it through in my case before, but my small amount in this SW region (1.9%) lines up awfully closely with my ancestor H.L. Ross, (would expect about 1.5% paper trail from him), and thanks to having so many DNA matches with other people who share this ancestor on Ancestry (including my closest matches of all), I am pretty certain that I did inherit DNA from this individual. I previously assumed it got lumped in with Orkney, as he's from the north, however, remembering that you have ancestors from similar locations and got mostly SW Scotland, it seems to look like this guy, who was actually from what Living DNA would class as NW Scotland, may actually be genetically closer to the SW category. The fact that the Ireland write up mentions that their program can have trouble differentiating between NW Scotland, SW Scotland, and Ireland, speaks volumes about the similarity of these three categories also.
I'd really like to know more about the paper trails from Amerijoe, JMcB, and AnnieD, who also got lots of SW Scotland on their tests IIRC. If you folks see this could you please tell us more about your Scottish ancestors and where they came from?
So the Highland clearances aren't a topic I'm expert in by any means, but I understand that the mainland areas may have been cleared more than the Islands were, hence the Gaelic-language stronghold we see there today, particularly in the Outer Hebrides, Skye, and I heard Islay has a fair whack of Gaelic itself. A taxi driver told me (almost ten years ago) that Mull and Oban had lots of Gaelic too. Is this correct?
I know I've discussed my own ancestry here to death, so my apologies for doing so. However, I do it because I can only speak about other people's ancestry with varying degrees of confidence, I am only able to speak in complete confidence about my own.


He's welcome to it.

Not even a chuckle? Tough crowd. Oh well, I guess I won't quit my day job!

If I get a chance to speak to this guy again, I'll ask him if he or his parents are Gaelic speakers. I did tell him about this forum and invited him to join, so hopefully he'll hop on here himself

firemonkey
02-27-2017, 03:34 AM
@Calas . I am interested in your comments on Aberdeenshire. Are you saying ancestors from there are likely not to be Scottish? My mother's maternal ancestors were fisherman from Banffshire and Morayshire. I have traced lines back to the late 17th -late 18th c .
If they are not Scottish what could they be?

sktibo
02-27-2017, 04:22 AM
I'm looking forward to seeing it.

14241

Here's my little map, it just represents how I think the regions might be more accurately depicted as an alternative to the boundaries we see on our Living DNA maps.
Green = NW, Red = SW / NI, Beige/White = Cumbria, Purple = Aberdeen, Orange = Orkney. Size of dots doesn't represent anything. Location of dots don't represent anything. I used dots because it was easier than coloring the thing in, and they can be used to display overlap. The main points I'm trying to make with this image are
1. It looks like Aberdeenshire expands a bit beyond the counties they list and the boundaries on the map
2. It looks like SW Scotland and Northern Ireland expand well beyond the boundaries given
3. It looks like Cumbria isn't confined to Dumfries and Galloway in Scotland
4. I'm betting these categories converge to some extent near the middle.
5. The Northumbria area is blank because I have nothing to go on there, (waiting on deadly77's results to discuss that one)

I hope it's clear that I'm not a professional and I'm not placing this map in here with any level of absoluteness. However, I think I've seen enough test results to come to the idea that something seems off with these Scotland regions. For most of our Scottish members/ members with a large chunk of Scotland, SW Scotland and Northern Ireland comes out on top. I found someone earlier who had NW Scot. as his largest category, and it turns out he's 50% Island blood (Skye). I think most people who get these scores trace their ancestors to regions which would be included in the borders of NW Scotland (please confirm or correct me if this is you!). At any rate, it looks like this SW Scotland region expands a great deal further than the small confines the test has given to this zone. I think it is fair to say that NW Scotland has been assumed to encompass much more territory than it actually should on Living DNA. Of it's 34 samples from the POBI, only three are not along the western coast, and most of the remaining 31 samples (I count 25) are actually from Islay and Argyll. Cumbria seems to pop up a fair bit and I have my doubts as to whether or not it really is confined to D&G. I have it stretching to around Stirlingshire, because I can relate this to my own ancestry. Basically, I have a chunk of missing Scottish which is within one percentage of the assigned amount I got for Cumbria. If I count Cumbria as part of my Scottish score, it matches my paper trail with great precision. All of these ancestors were from Stirling and Perthshire, I have no reason to believe these people were from Dumfries and Galloway. I don't appear to be the only person where some Scotland may have been assigned as Cumbria, and seeing that places such as Stirling drew all kinds of people in, I don't think it's that crazy of an idea. Aberdeenshire is mostly a hunch, I possibly only have one 4x GG parent which is almost in that area, from Perth (city), but that isn't really enough to count the 4.8% I have in this region. Therefore, I'm assuming it actually expands out a bit more. Of course it could be that these Ancestors have much older roots in the east of Scotland, as they're only traced to about 1700.
I feel I should mention that Northumbria, Cumbria, and the Scottish regions cluster together before splitting off into their different categories. It could all be due to individuals having different genetics getting different scores which ends up in unexpected regions. What I would really like to do, if I'm able, is to map out the location of most distant Scottish ancestors of the members here, and compare that to the Living DNA categories they were assigned, with the goal being trying to fit each of these ancestors with a category from Living DNA. If we could make something like that, it might actually be helpful in solving this puzzle. If anyone is interested in doing a project like this, please let me know.

ADW_1981
02-27-2017, 05:43 AM
Given as I said elsewhere gedmatch happens to use people of rather mixed heritage beyond the asked-for-grandparent level the references are likely a little bit salty. It has been mentioned elsewhere on blogs and what not that some populations are skewed for FTDNA and 23&me in favor of this same mixed ancestry because they can't find anyone of authentic long-term ancestry. Besides there are, after all, a few notes in the various databases which say do not take the samples as a concrete example of the given population. Of course. Migration means unless it becomes law to DNA test you'll never get a truly accurate representation of a population.


I guess you'd have to take a close look on who was sampled in the PoBI Scottish sample of the study because that's exactly where the data came from. The 1000 genomes project data for Kent and Cornwall which is referenced at Gedmatch seems largely accurate. I can pretty much say that from near first hand experience.

chelle
02-27-2017, 06:24 AM
Speaking of Scotland...today I logged onto Ancestry and saw a new dna match that lives in Fife. Nice clue/confirmation of my 1.5% mystery Aberdeenshire on the living dna test.

sktibo
02-27-2017, 07:05 AM
Speaking of Scotland...today I logged onto Ancestry and saw a new dna match that lives in Fife. Nice clue/confirmation of my 1.5% mystery Aberdeenshire on the living dna test.

That is so cool. I'm not the biggest fan of Ancestry's ethnicity estimate but it's DNA matching system is incredibly useful

LaurenceMacD
02-27-2017, 09:00 AM
Hi Calas
I am 'that chap'.
My Father was not a Gaelic speaker but his parents (and of course their antescedents) were. My Father's antescedents were one of the few of a small group who managed to buy their crofts from the landowners and thus, resisted the clearance from Skye.
Regards

Calas
02-27-2017, 09:05 AM
LivingDNA is using the PoBI dataset and people had to have proven links to areas such as all 4 grandparents born in the same area and this had to be verified by documentation so I would presume that the areas are a fairly accurate representation. I remember reading that the use of all 4 Grandparents would push the time period back to the 1840s before the great population movements of the 20th Century. They also looked at things like surnames. I know the Irish DNA Atlas is even more stringent with using 8 Great Grandparents.

You can read about it here.

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/pobipaper.pdf

Jessie... I've read the PoBI many times. To anyone whom seriously knows history it is interesting but still to be taken with salt. Humans were not, after all, immobile until the 18th century otherwise the Americas never would have been colonized. It is why I said elsewhere databases, done in the same fashion, have notices saying you can't take these samples as an accurate representation because there is no guarantee. Certain populations have had such population movement it is very difficult to get an accurate representation.


But in reality the Highland Clearances have been on going in since the 16-17th century of various degree. Bliadhna nan Caorach - Year of the Sheep - 1792 saw a removal of tenants for... sheep. The Highland Scots of the Americas came from? Jacobites had to have gone somewhere. That's of course not including the Protestant evictions of the 16th and 17th century either. Whom do you think moved in when Jacobites were removed?

The Highland Clearances wasn't just the 18th and 19th centuries. Those happen to be the more brutal eras but to say that it is isolated to that time frame is erroneous. Not to mention most of the major Clearance evictions happened in the early 1800s, twenty to thirty years before 1840ish. What you're thinking is the Highland Potato Famine which also removed a chunk of people but which had little to do with the Clearances.


Surnames are the major indicator? You could find Scottish surnames all over England by the 17th century. Marriage > change their surname. I'd be more impressed with legitimate clan-based ties actually. Says far more to someone of Scottish ancestry in a way.

But as indicated with the 2011 census quote let's say 50% and over of the "Scottish" referenced are British ethnically - which isn't entirely too far fetched - calling themselves Scottish how does one differ? The real ethnic Scots might be knocked off as odd balls and ignored by researchers in favor of the normalized "Scottish".

Calas
02-27-2017, 09:13 AM
Hi Calas
I am 'that chap'.
My Father was not a Gaelic speaker but his parents (and of course their antescedents) were. My Father's antescedents were one of the few of a small group who managed to buy their crofts from the landowners and thus, resisted the clearance from Skye.
Regards

Ah. Thanks for mentioning that. I've PMed you if you don't mind.

LaurenceMacD
02-27-2017, 09:23 AM
Calas:
I can't respond to your PM direct as I don't have enough posts to qualify, sorry.

To answer your PM yes I am a MacDonald.
I am surprised I got results of >40% English regions - this is misleading I believe, it implies that I have recent (within a few generatations) English blood and I don't believe this to be so. If lowland Scots DNA markers resemble north England why are they lumped in with Cumbria/Northumbria? Should that area map not be widened to include lowland Scotland to give a truer picture?

Calas
02-27-2017, 09:46 AM
To answer your PM yes I am a MacDonald.
I am surprised I got results of >40% English regions - this is misleading I believe, it implies that I have recent (within a few generatations) English blood and I don't believe this to be so. If lowland Scots DNA markers resemble north England why are they lumped in with Cumbria/Northumbria? Should that area map not be widened to include lowland Scotland to give a truer picture?Calas:

I think it is more due to English migration than anything. "Scottish" with a British ethnicity being used as a reference population. Grandparents are good and all but as anyone from Scotland knows there's been a lot of change as to whom those grandparents happen to be.

There's also the fact that Lowland Scots migrated into the Northumbia and Cumbria areas, e.g. Northern England. So that'd be a "British" claim with a Scottish ancestry. I mean I just raise an eyebrow when people say my Newcastle upon Tyne friends look rather Scottish. A duh response as either their ancestors' relatives moved into Scotland or Scottish moved into their area.

As for a truer picture I doubt we'll ever get a true, true picture of Scotland. Lack of population in some areas, removal of ethnics and replacement by migrants, etc. paints a different picture of Scotland during the 17th century to the Scotland of the 21st century.

ollie444
02-27-2017, 10:19 AM
Calas:
I can't respond to your PM direct as I don't have enough posts to qualify, sorry.

To answer your PM yes I am a MacDonald.
I am surprised I got results of >40% English regions - this is misleading I believe, it implies that I have recent (within a few generatations) English blood and I don't believe this to be so. If lowland Scots DNA markers resemble north England why are they lumped in with Cumbria/Northumbria? Should that area map not be widened to include lowland Scotland to give a truer picture?

Your Scottish might go up as Living DNA refine their test.

LaurenceMacD
02-27-2017, 10:26 AM
Hi again Calas

Yes, I accept all your points but I do believe a caveat of some sort should be provided on results such as mine. If, as there has been, a cross border (county and country) movement, and perhaps in opposing directions, then it would be helpful to have that region map widened I think. Following 'political' geographic regions isn't particularly helpful when it comes to understanding the genetic map of some areas.

Furthermore, I saw a post from LDNA on their Facebook page today (not a reply to me but to another customer who has a query):

'we are going to be expanding Scotlands DNA breakdown over the coming 18months, stay tuned and your results will get updated as that project comes online. Many thanks Living DNA'.

Personally, and at the risk of appearing to conform to a Scots stereotype, I'd have preferred to know that their Scottish data was weak before parting with £120.

Regards

Calas
02-27-2017, 10:58 AM
Hi again Calas

Yes, I accept all your points but I do believe a caveat of some sort should be provided on results such as mine. If, as there has been, a cross border (county and country) movement, and perhaps in opposing directions, then it would be helpful to have that region map widened I think. Following 'political' geographic regions isn't particularly helpful when it comes to understanding the genetic map of some areas.

Agreed.

However, until they get a comparable Scottish reference that's not going to happen. And whom is to say they will. How many Scots, particularly from the old timer families, are going to be interested in this genetic testing? They've been raised since infancy on generational stories. What's a DNA test going to prove.



Furthermore, I saw a post from LDNA on their Facebook page today (not a reply to me but to another customer who has a query):

'we are going to be expanding Scotlands DNA breakdown over the coming 18months, stay tuned and your results will get updated as that project comes online. Many thanks Living DNA'.

Personally, and at the risk of appearing to conform to a Scots stereotype, I'd have preferred to know that their Scottish data was weak before parting with £120.

Regards

Ah, that got a chuckle. Money "well wasted", well that's to be seen.

I had actually assumed it would be for the reason I said above. One reason why I took the test rather than trying to talk actual Scottish relatives into doing it. Be interesting if they actually can get a good Scottish reference.

Mary_Ellen
02-27-2017, 02:11 PM
Hello

Sorry I got my results the end of the week their only getting around to a looking at my results now. I have looked at my family tree or my background I currently living Raleigh North Carolina but originally from Pittsburgh Pennsylvania. I have asked relatives about my heritage and they just said British so am going to break my results down for you and see what you think of my livingDNA results.

So I don't know how to screenshot my results so I have to write this manually also my youngest grandchild has order the test and he has sent his sample at the start last week to living dna so it would be interested to compare his results to mine.

British & Irish 82%

Ireland 34.2%
Cumbria 25.5%
Southern Scotland % Northern Ireland 11.8%
North Wales 4.8%
Orkney 1.8%

Britain and Ireland Unassigned 3.9%

Europe South

Basque 10.8%

Europe (North West)

France 5%

World Unassigned 2.2%

Kind Regards

Mary Ellen

ADW_1981
02-27-2017, 02:35 PM
Calas:
I can't respond to your PM direct as I don't have enough posts to qualify, sorry.

To answer your PM yes I am a MacDonald.
I am surprised I got results of >40% English regions - this is misleading I believe, it implies that I have recent (within a few generatations) English blood and I don't believe this to be so. If lowland Scots DNA markers resemble north England why are they lumped in with Cumbria/Northumbria? Should that area map not be widened to include lowland Scotland to give a truer picture?

How good is your pedigree going back 6 generations?

avalon
02-27-2017, 04:37 PM
As for a truer picture I doubt we'll ever get a true, true picture of Scotland. Lack of population in some areas, removal of ethnics and replacement by migrants, etc. paints a different picture of Scotland during the 17th century to the Scotland of the 21st century.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. What you're basically saying is that genetically the Scottish Highlands is not the same as it was 300 years ago, largely down to Highland Clearances and that nowadays a lot of people living there are English or other in-migrants, not necessarily with deep ancestry in the area.

I'm sure researchers will recruit more people if they try hard enough though, although POBI clearly struggled, there must be some people tucked away in the highlands and islands somewhere who are good representatives of 17th century Gaelic Highlanders?

Dewsloth
02-27-2017, 05:13 PM
I only have one branch that was in Scotland 6 generations ago (Dixons from Glasgow, the last b. 1752 but moved to Vermont) ... and I'm not sure how long they were there. That Dixon's dad I just have as being born somewhere in Scotland in 1730, and his wife was a Miller b. 1731 from Northern Ireland.

sktibo
02-27-2017, 06:40 PM
Hi again Calas

Yes, I accept all your points but I do believe a caveat of some sort should be provided on results such as mine. If, as there has been, a cross border (county and country) movement, and perhaps in opposing directions, then it would be helpful to have that region map widened I think. Following 'political' geographic regions isn't particularly helpful when it comes to understanding the genetic map of some areas.

Furthermore, I saw a post from LDNA on their Facebook page today (not a reply to me but to another customer who has a query):

'we are going to be expanding Scotlands DNA breakdown over the coming 18months, stay tuned and your results will get updated as that project comes online. Many thanks Living DNA'.

Personally, and at the risk of appearing to conform to a Scots stereotype, I'd have preferred to know that their Scottish data was weak before parting with £120.

Regards

That is much sooner than expected, thank you for sharing this with us, and hey, good to have you on the forum here! Thank you for allowing your results to be shared. As you can see, they're of great interest to us DNA geeks.

avalon
02-27-2017, 07:57 PM
I feel I should mention that Northumbria, Cumbria, and the Scottish regions cluster together before splitting off into their different categories. It could all be due to individuals having different genetics getting different scores which ends up in unexpected regions.

I think this is an important point. Per POBI analysis, Cumbria and Northumbria split at K=16 which means genetically they are very close to each other and furthermore these two clusters are genetically closer to Scotland than they are to to the rest of England.

The Northumbria region of course isn't just an English region, it spans the border and pretty much covers the SE of Scotland in very much the same way as the Medieval Kingdom of Northumbria which was established by the Angles.

As it currently stands, it is probably quite likely that some Scottish ancestry is getting assigned to Northumbria/Cumbria simply because this region is a closer genetic match to that individual's Scottish ancestry than the other Scottish regions. Or, there might be a bias in the dataset towards the heavily sampled areas, but I am not convinced about this as LivingDNA should have taken steps to mitigate any bias in the dataset.

sktibo
02-27-2017, 08:56 PM
I think this is an important point. Per POBI analysis, Cumbria and Northumbria split at K=16 which means genetically they are very close to each other and furthermore these two clusters are genetically closer to Scotland than they are to to the rest of England.

The Northumbria region of course isn't just an English region, it spans the border and pretty much covers the SE of Scotland in very much the same way as the Medieval Kingdom of Northumbria which was established by the Angles.

As it currently stands, it is probably quite likely that some Scottish ancestry is getting assigned to Northumbria/Cumbria simply because this region is a closer genetic match to that individual's Scottish ancestry than the other Scottish regions. Or, there might be a bias in the dataset towards the heavily sampled areas, but I am not convinced about this as LivingDNA should have taken steps to mitigate any bias in the dataset.

This summarizes my opinion on the matter in a much more eloquent way than I am able to put it. However, I don't think living DNA did take steps to mitigate biases in the dataset. My reason for thinking this is the massive amounts of British isles ancestry other people seem to get while not being mostly British (see review of living DNA by "your genetic genealogist"), and I think what we currently have in the case of Scotland are the POBI samples without any additions. I think it's a fair assumption that if they did include other samples, they wouldn't be working on a revamp of the Scottish regions, and we know they are doing that. My money is on many folks getting a fairly different Scottish ethnicity score after the Scotland update.

LaurenceMacD
02-27-2017, 09:41 PM
How good is your pedigree going back 6 generations?

Hi, I have access to documentation for maternal line back to 15thC I am told! The paternal line was solid Western Isles (Skye) and Northern Scotland for a very, very long way back - so I have been informed today by a close family relative. I'll try and do some digging through the documentation tomorrow.

sktibo
02-27-2017, 09:45 PM
Hi, I have access to documentation for maternal line back to 15thC I am told! The paternal line was solid Western Isles (Skye) and Northern Scotland for a very, very long way back, so I have been informed today by a close family relative. I'll try and do some digging through the documentation tomorrow.

Hey Laurence, I noticed you added an English and Welsh flag onto your profile, do you have some documented English or Welsh ancestry?

LaurenceMacD
02-27-2017, 09:58 PM
Hey Laurence, I noticed you added an English and Welsh flag onto your profile, do you have some documented English or Welsh ancestry?

No but I have some 11% Central England result which can't be explained away as misappropriated Scottish Borders I shouldn't have thought. I also have a 1.7% and 1.8% result for Cornwall and Wales. Do you guys discount these small %'s as noise or are they considered valid?

sktibo
02-27-2017, 10:12 PM
No but I have some 11% Central England result which can't be explained away as misappropriated Scottish Borders I shouldn't have thought. I also have a 1.7% and 1.8% result for Cornwall and Wales. Do you guys discount these small %'s as noise or are they considered valid?

Lots of people get Cornwall without any ties to the region. I think it's just noise which indicates some Brythonic/ British "Celtic" ancestry. Same with the Wales IMO. The 11% central English is more likely real, probably in the unknown part of your mother's heritage. I don't know what it's like in Scotland for this, but in Canada, we often conveniently forget about our English ancestors. When I first got into DNA testing I was shocked that my tests consistently came out as primarily British/English. My family would say we were mostly Scottish, with some French and Welsh. My mom's father would only talk about his Irish ancestors. Turns out that my mom's father was mostly English, and so was my Welsh ancestor, making me mostly English. I'm not sure if I would have discovered this without DNA testing as English is the least "cool" ancestry there is today, or so it seems. This is by no means universal in Canada of course, but any time I've had a conversation about ancestral background with other people, the English is almost always left out, ( I eventually get them to say something along the lines of "my mom is part English but we don't talk about that") unless it's the only group the person I'm discussing it with is solely descended from the English
Is it the same in Scotland?

alan
02-27-2017, 10:25 PM
Given as I said elsewhere gedmatch happens to use people of rather mixed heritage beyond the asked-for-grandparent level the references are likely a little bit salty. It has been mentioned elsewhere on blogs and what not that some populations are skewed for FTDNA and 23&me in favor of this same mixed ancestry because they can't find anyone of authentic long-term ancestry. Besides there are, after all, a few notes in the various databases which say do not take the samples as a concrete example of the given population. Of course. Migration means unless it becomes law to DNA test you'll never get a truly accurate representation of a population.


Besides as MacUalraig & I have said this a few times what is Scotland now is by no means what Scotland was. In the last 300 years, Scotland has had considerable change in the "ethnicity" of its people.

But, for example, the 2011 Scottish census happened to have the largest percentage of people identifying as British first located in the areas that Living DNA happens to clump as "NW Scottish". Argyll. There's also the little fact that the lowest percentages of Scottish identified populations happened to be Edinburgh & Aberdeen which takes in the supposed "Aberdeenshire" of Living DNA. Not surprising in the slightest if you know Scottish history. The Clearances removed a large chunk of ethnic Scot and the Jacobite events didn't help.

That same census happened to make it pretty obvious how people perceive themselves. The highest percentage of people who more accurately referred to themselves as British/Scottish belonged to older generations. There was a reflective increase in "Scottish" among younger generations. I say reflective because duh they're Scottish as they were born in Scotland but it doesn't mean they're actually ethnic Scots. You can quite literally use that census to see how British and other immigrants over time became "Scottish".








I am curious about this Isle of Skye chap. Does his father happen to speak Gaelic? The Isle does still have a number of Gaelic speakers.


Besides the fact that the guy scores such high Northwestern when he has unknown ancestry but eastern Scottish indicates such. Eastern Scottish has had its fair share of Lowland Scottish - British influenced Scots, as Scot is an English influenced dialect unlike Gaelic - over the generations. This would include Stirling, Kinross, & Perth all the supposed "NW Scottish" of Living DNA.


If you want the truth the most accurate representation of Scottish is likely going to be areas around Galloway. So that's be SW Scottish & Cumbria not NW Scottish. Why? Because out of all of Scotland that area has had, in a way, a more stable population than what became the rather dirt-cheap Highlands.

I mentioned earlier on my own posts I expected higher NW Scottish because I really wasn't thinking. Between moving & having to work overtime as a colleague quit without warning I didn't give much thought to what Living DNA's results represented. But thinking about it, well, NW Scottish on things like Living DNA liklely is not NW Scottish per say. The removal of ethnic Scots, the low population in the Highlands area per hectare, and the arrival of non-Scottish people widely in these areas means, as indicated, most of the population is likely more British than Scottish. Unless, of course, they've found the fountain of youth people don't live 120+ years per generation.





He's welcome to it.

Your observations are partly correct but its more complex. A lot of retirees and other people from across the UK have moved to the highlands in recent times but on that scale its a very recent phenomenon. If you go to the highlands and Hebrides today you will find a much higher 'native' element if you are discerning about the sample and go to areas where Gaelic speaking communities still exist. Only a very small minority of incomers have bothered to learn Gaelic to everyday use level and an increase in the nos doing this is a very recent phenomenon.

You can still find areas where Gaelic is the everyday language, the population are largely native Gaels with local surnames etc. They are shrinking but there are plenty of people who are overwhelmingly native blood and represent continuity. On Skye there are very rural areas a bit off the tourist trail which are solidly local Gaelic areas and their families have basically never left the island and to some level its a closed world to those without Gaelic. If you go to the tourist bits you will find a lot of blow-ins, many English. Some of them have a horrific attitude that local traditions and languages are some sort of inconvenience, slight or way of excluding them and have the mentality of a colonist rather than someone who wants to become part of the native community. They are nicknamed 'white settlers'.

Even in areas where Gaelic has died you can still see areas where the local Medieval clan names are still very dominant in the locality. That is actually very common in Ireland even in non-remote areas. My wife is from an areas where about 80% of the people seem to have a dozen or so surnames that were Medieval clans in the area 600 years ago and its not even remote. Even small cities or large towns sometimes are very dominated by surnames of local clans who lived in its hinterland in Medieval times. I

f I saw a 5 passenger lists of crowds travelling from 5 towns I was familiar with I would almost certainly would find it easy to know which they were from. Even small actual cities like Derry are utterly dominated by 5 or 6 surnames of Medieval clans who once lived in its hinterland. So much so if you took a dozen random people from Derry and listed their names and said they were from one place asked what place it was I would almost certainly be able to tell. The key to finding continuity is go to bog standard areas not too touristy and less attractive to people retiring there etc. You can find a lot of relatively untouristy areas where people leave but very few settle in.

alan
02-27-2017, 10:41 PM
Your observations are partly correct but its more complex. A lot of retirees and other people from across the UK have moved to the highlands in recent times but on that scale its a very recent phenomenon. If you go to the highlands and Hebrides today you will find a much higher 'native' element if you are discerning about the sample and go to areas where Gaelic speaking communities still exist. Only a very small minority of incomers have bothered to learn Gaelic to everyday use level and an increase in the nos doing this is a very recent phenomenon.

You can still find areas where Gaelic is the everyday language, the population are largely native Gaels with local surnames etc. They are shrinking but there are plenty of people who are overwhelmingly native blood and represent continuity. On Skye there are very rural areas a bit off the tourist trail which are solidly local Gaelic areas and their families have basically never left the island. If you go to the tourist bits you will find a lot of blow-ins, many English.

Even in areas where Gaelic has died you can still see areas where the local Medieval clan names are still very dominant in the locality. That is actually very common in Ireland even in non-remote areas. My wife is from an areas where about 80% of the people seem to have a dozen or so surnames that were Medieval clans in the area 600 years ago and its not even remote. Even small cities or large towns sometimes are very dominated by surnames of local clans who lived in its hinterland in Medieval times. I

f I saw a 5 passenger lists of crowds travelling from 5 towns I was familiar with I would almost certainly would find it easy to know which they were from. Even small actual cities like Derry are utterly dominated by 5 or 6 surnames of Medieval clans who once lived in its hinterland. So much so if you took a dozen random people from Derry and listed their names and said they were from one place asked what place it was I would almost certainly be able to tell. The key to finding continuity is go to bog standard areas not too touristy and less attractive to people retiring there etc. You can find a lot of relatively untouristy areas where people leave but very few settle in.

Actually in a way Northern Ireland is very interesting in that 400 years of apartheid segregation and enormous fear of the place in recent times by both English and Rep of Ireland folks has meant very few incomers since the 17th century plantation and of course freakish levels of segregation of the planters and natives for centuries which still is strong (virtually everyone I know seemed to still marry someone from their own half of the pop). On top of that the Vikings and Normans were not successful in Ulster and left zero and only a couple of descendant families respectively. So the catholic population of Northern Ireland is probably very much the same as in Medieval times. There were very small inputs of galloglasses from the highlands but way too small to affect the genetics and of course coming from a similar Gaelic Atlantic coastal area. I personally doubt there are many places in Europe where the population is as genetically frozen from 1000+ years ago as the catholic population of the north of Ireland. Even the finer grained Medieval clan geographical patterns are still strongly preserved within the catholic population.

alan
02-27-2017, 11:13 PM
LivingDNA is using the PoBI dataset and people had to have proven links to areas such as all 4 grandparents born in the same area and this had to be verified by documentation so I would presume that the areas are a fairly accurate representation. I remember reading that the use of all 4 Grandparents would push the time period back to the 1840s before the great population movements of the 20th Century. They also looked at things like surnames. I know the Irish DNA Atlas is even more stringent with using 8 Great Grandparents.

You can read about it here.

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/pobipaper.pdf

I am not sure even great grandparents is sufficient although in Ireland it probably works better than most countries. My own 8 great grandparents were all born in the same town and villages and rural areas just outside the town. This is still pretty well true of my 16 great great grandparents except maybe one or two of them. But by my great great great grandparents over half of the 32 were born much further away and probably only maybe 40% are local to the area.

Calas
02-28-2017, 10:40 AM
Your observations are partly correct but its more complex. A lot of retirees and other people from across the UK have moved to the highlands in recent times but on that scale its a very recent phenomenon. If you go to the highlands and Hebrides today you will find a much higher 'native' element if you are discerning about the sample and go to areas where Gaelic speaking communities still exist. Only a very small minority of incomers have bothered to learn Gaelic to everyday use level and an increase in the nos doing this is a very recent phenomenon.

No, it isn't quite a "recent" phenomenon because if that was the case one couldn't quite literally use the census maps from 1901 showing Gaelic being pushed further and further back into northwestern/western Scotland as English immigrants moved in. This isn't a natural move but rather a forced move seeing as it happens too rapidly. The 2011 census I quoted likewise debunks the "recent" concept.

Anyone who studied the Clearances knows that. The Clearances, as I said elsewhere, wheren't entirely to change fields into sheep holdings. A number of landlords evicated their renters and replaced them with better ones. Whom do you think would be counted among "better" renters. Fellow Scots when the economy happened to be collapsing in areas? Or British immigrants taking advantage of that collapse & cheap land?


As for few newcomers wanting to learn Gaelic there is currently 21 courses offering Gaelic today in Glasgow alone. A lack of interest would cause a reflective lack of tutelage.





You can still find areas where Gaelic is the everyday language, the population are largely native Gaels with local surnames etc. They are shrinking but there are plenty of people who are overwhelmingly native blood and represent continuity. On Skye there are very rural areas a bit off the tourist trail which are solidly local Gaelic areas and their families have basically never left the island and to some level its a closed world to those without Gaelic. If you go to the tourist bits you will find a lot of blow-ins, many English. Some of them have a horrific attitude that local traditions and languages are some sort of inconvenience, slight or way of excluding them and have the mentality of a colonist rather than someone who wants to become part of the native community. They are nicknamed 'white settlers'.

And yet the majority of Living DNA's samples are taken from areas where Gaelic speaking communities are ironically not just low but few & far between. The fact that they are using grandparents is indicative of the fact they would get very few Gaelic speaking individuals for as LaurenceMacD indicated his father didn't speak Gaelic but his father's parents did and that happens to be in a still Gaelic speaking region. Last I checked Stirling & Kinross, erroneously clumped into the "NW Scottish" for example, started to quit speaking Gaelic sometime in the 17th century as the English-influence Lothian Scots language became more predominant.



Even in areas where Gaelic has died you can still see areas where the local Medieval clan names are still very dominant in the locality. That is actually very common in Ireland even in non-remote areas. My wife is from an areas where about 80% of the people seem to have a dozen or so surnames that were Medieval clans in the area 600 years ago and its not even remote. Even small cities or large towns sometimes are very dominated by surnames of local clans who lived in its hinterland in Medieval times.

Irrelevant.

Surnames are passed down like one passes down water. Upon marriage, after all, one generally changes their surname. So if the female line is majority immigrant a Scottish surname means squat. As I said earlier Scottish surnames were all over England by at least the 17th century - particularly northern England and mid-country England not to mention Scottish Planters in Ireland - so a Brit bearing a Scottish surname of yesteryears is Scottish still then? I can give you a multitude of such Scottish surnames including a very old & predominant Scottish surname where a subfraction took root near southwestern England. Scottish still?

But it is quite ironic that there's sites claiming there's less than a quarter of "Scots" with Scottish surnames in some areas of Scotland who can call themselves authentic old-timer ethnic Scots. Why do you think that could be?



f I saw a 5 passenger lists of crowds travelling from 5 towns I was familiar with I would almost certainly would find it easy to know which they were from. Even small actual cities like Derry are utterly dominated by 5 or 6 surnames of Medieval clans who once lived in its hinterland. So much so if you took a dozen random people from Derry and listed their names and said they were from one place asked what place it was I would almost certainly be able to tell. The key to finding continuity is go to bog standard areas not too touristy and less attractive to people retiring there etc. You can find a lot of relatively untouristy areas where people leave but very few settle in.

I'm not on par with Irish history as Scottish but wasn't Derry one of the most Planted areas in Ulster however? How many people with those old surnames do you think would have English/Scottish root if you asked them and they knew their ancestry beyond great-great grandparents?

Besides you go further with mentioning Catholics in Northern Ireland. Ironic isn't it that the Planters were themselves Catholic too. So that means intermarriage would be easier than saying one was Protestant and one Catholic.

sktibo
02-28-2017, 11:47 AM
Hey Calas, by "Stirling and Kinross" do you mean the urban areas of the city of Stirling and the town of Kinross or are you referring to the areas as a whole like Stirlingshire and or Perth and Kinross? Cheers

LaurenceMacD
02-28-2017, 12:34 PM
Hi Calas,

Firstly, I still can't PM due to post number restriction.

My father's parents having left Skye my father was born/raised in Edinburgh and though he had some Gaelic (would have been spoken at the family home in Edinburgh) he wasn't what you might consider a Gaelic speaker. Interestingly, I have young neices raised in Dunoon in Argyll (SW Scotland) and they attend Gaelic unit in school are are true Gaelic communicators.
Regards

firemonkey
02-28-2017, 01:23 PM
@Calas You never did answer my question on Aberdeenshire. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9647-Living-DNA-Results/page13

avalon
02-28-2017, 07:29 PM
This summarizes my opinion on the matter in a much more eloquent way than I am able to put it. However, I don't think living DNA did take steps to mitigate biases in the dataset. My reason for thinking this is the massive amounts of British isles ancestry other people seem to get while not being mostly British (see review of living DNA by "your genetic genealogist"), and I think what we currently have in the case of Scotland are the POBI samples without any additions. I think it's a fair assumption that if they did include other samples, they wouldn't be working on a revamp of the Scottish regions, and we know they are doing that. My money is on many folks getting a fairly different Scottish ethnicity score after the Scotland update.

You may well be right about that, perhaps I have put too much faith in LivingDNA's ability to get totally accurate results at this stage. They have called it "cautious" mode for a reason I suppose.

This is total speculation on my part but I think that currently LivingDNA may be underestimating Irish ancestry by as much as 15% and this is purely based on the fact we do have an Irish individual with 83% so it can't get a whole lot higher.

I think that they are underestimating Scottish ancestry too, but not by as much as they are with Irish ancestry, and I think this because as small as it is, LiivingDNA do still have a Scottish sample set and let's face it, when LivingDNA do eventually manage to obtain more samples from Scotland these people are not going to be "that" genetically different from the samples they already have.

Also, I think people are wrongly labelling Northumbria as an English region when really it is a "Border" area that is also Scottish.

on edit: On the whole issue of sampling, yes the Scottish sample is low (34 lime green triangles, 54 Aberdeenshire, 74 yellow circles from SW Scotland/N Ireland) but the Welsh samples are not much better, 75 North Wales and 59 South Wales so you don't necessarily need a big sample to detect a local or regional genetic cluster.

sktibo
02-28-2017, 08:12 PM
You may well be right about that, perhaps I have put too much faith in LivingDNA's ability to get totally accurate results at this stage. They have called it "cautious" mode for a reason I suppose.

This is total speculation on my part but I think that currently LivingDNA may be underestimating Irish ancestry by as much as 15% and this is purely based on the fact we do have an Irish individual with 83% so it can't get a whole lot higher.

I think that they are underestimating Scottish ancestry too, but not by as much as they are with Irish ancestry, and I think this because as small as it is, LiivingDNA do still have a Scottish sample set and let's face it, when LivingDNA do eventually manage to obtain more samples from Scotland these people are not going to be "that" genetically different from the samples they already have.

Also, I think people are wrongly labelling Northumbria as an English region when really it is a "Border" area that is also Scottish.

on edit: On the whole issue of sampling, yes the Scottish sample is low (34 lime green triangles, 54 Aberdeenshire, 74 yellow circles from SW Scotland/N Ireland) but the Welsh samples are not much better, 75 North Wales and 59 South Wales so you don't necessarily need a big sample to detect a local or regional genetic cluster.

Completely agree. My biggest problem with NW Scotland is that it's more or less a Hebridean cluster and they're using it to label the vast majority of Scotland. 34 Samples would probably be fine if they called it like it is (Islay and Argyll or something), but for the region it's supposed to represent, it should have at least more samples than SW Scotland / NI. Aberdeenshire is this small little area and it has 54. Yes, I think you're right about it underestimating Irish as well. If they only have 34 samples from NW Scotland, and for the Ireland samples they include a note explaining that their sample for Ireland is very limited, then that says to me that they have very few samples from Ireland. Did you get your results in? I must have missed that, I'd really like to see them if so.
The England/Scotland Border regions are interesting. Cumbria and Northumbria are so similar it's like splitting hairs to tell them apart on graphs. They're definitely different from SW Scotland and NW Scotland, but they look very similar to the NE Scotland clusters, particularly NE Scotland 1. Judging by this chart, it looks to me that the primary difference is that the two border areas have more Anglo-Danish and the NE Scotland has more Scandinavian.. aside from that there doesn't appear to be a great difference. Perhaps this is indicative of a common Brythonic/British heritage of these areas, and their genetic differences have come about due to the different invaders who settled the two areas?

14283

14284

I've drawn lines between Cumbria, Nthmbra, NE Sct 1&2 to make it easier to compare. I tried to get the line from the median point between Cumbria and Nrthmbra.
Orange dot indicates border, purple, NE Scot. Just put these here to make it easier to keep track of what I'm looking at.
The Welsh Borders appear incredibly similar to the Scottish borders also, but I think a little bit less so because of the lack of Scandinavian influence, and the increased Saxon influence we see there. Heck, I almost get the impression that Scottish and Welsh borders, along with NE Scotland, could have been very similar populations prior to Germanic and Scandinavian migrations.

What are your thoughts?

Calas
03-01-2017, 01:49 AM
@Calas You never did answer my question on Aberdeenshire. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9647-Living-DNA-Results/page13

Sorry firemonkey. Missed it. Work has been busy.

But it would depend on your family history. Surnames, etc. Where did they come from, etc. You mention fishermen. Fishermen do travel, sailors landing, etc. And 18th-late 17th centuries are still pretty modern in relation to Scottish history. They maybe Scottish doesn't mean they're 100% local.

However, are you used in Living DNA as a Scottish reference? What I am talking about is Living DNA's perceived concepts of "Scottish".

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-01-2017, 04:50 AM
Completely agree. My biggest problem with NW Scotland is that it's more or less a Hebridean cluster and they're using it to label the vast majority of Scotland. 34 Samples would probably be fine if they called it like it is (Islay and Argyll or something), but for the region it's supposed to represent, it should have at least more samples than SW Scotland / NI. Aberdeenshire is this small little area and it has 54. Yes, I think you're right about it underestimating Irish as well. If they only have 34 samples from NW Scotland, and for the Ireland samples they include a note explaining that their sample for Ireland is very limited, then that says to me that they have very few samples from Ireland. Did you get your results in? I must have missed that, I'd really like to see them if so.
The England/Scotland Border regions are interesting. Cumbria and Northumbria are so similar it's like splitting hairs to tell them apart on graphs. They're definitely different from SW Scotland and NW Scotland, but they look very similar to the NE Scotland clusters, particularly NE Scotland 1. Judging by this chart, it looks to me that the primary difference is that the two border areas have more Anglo-Danish and the NE Scotland has more Scandinavian.. aside from that there doesn't appear to be a great difference. Perhaps this is indicative of a common Brythonic/British heritage of these areas, and their genetic differences have come about due to the different invaders who settled the two areas?

14283

14284

I've drawn lines between Cumbria, Nthmbra, NE Sct 1&2 to make it easier to compare. I tried to get the line from the median point between Cumbria and Nrthmbra.
Orange dot indicates border, purple, NE Scot. Just put these here to make it easier to keep track of what I'm looking at.
The Welsh Borders appear incredibly similar to the Scottish borders also, but I think a little bit less so because of the lack of Scandinavian influence, and the increased Saxon influence we see there. Heck, I almost get the impression that Scottish and Welsh borders, along with NE Scotland, could have been very similar populations prior to Germanic and Scandinavian migrations.

What are your thoughts?

Will be interested to hear Avalon's thoughts. My two pennorth partly based on my own results is that similarities between SW Scotland and Wales wouldn't surprise me and maybe to a slightly lesser extent Cumbria.
This is purely an impression on my part but I think from the number of Welsh surnames ( it's a lot) I come across in Herefordshire and the comparatively recent language history, the "Welshness" of this area is sometimes under-estimated. Counties like Herefordshire and Shropshire are thought of today in an English context largely because of a line on a map.
Northumbia is interesting for me personally. I know from my Y I have some Anglo/Saxon ancestry, but I don't get the Eastern England I thought I might so could my Northumbrian (and S Yorkshire) be related to the Angles or some sort of "Celtic" similarity? I've noted the comments about Scotland and Northumbia but I would guess there was "traffic" in various directions from that area (Northumbia)? My percentages from Northern Britain are much higher than I would expect from my paper trail, in fact I have only one "speculative" Scot and that's purely a guess based on surname.
The more I think of it, the more I think some of these unexpected percentages ,may be "old" or some regions are so similar genetically as to be difficult to unravel, which maybe isn't surprising. John

sktibo
03-01-2017, 06:31 AM
Will be interested to hear Avalon's thoughts. My two pennorth partly based on my own results is that similarities between SW Scotland and Wales wouldn't surprise me and maybe to a slightly lesser extent Cumbria.
This is purely an impression on my part but I think from the number of Welsh surnames ( it's a lot) I come across in Herefordshire and the comparatively recent language history, the "Welshness" of this area is sometimes under-estimated. Counties like Herefordshire and Shropshire are thought of today in an English context largely because of a line on a map.
Northumbia is interesting for me personally. I know from my Y I have some Anglo/Saxon ancestry, but I don't get the Eastern England I thought I might so could my Northumbrian (and S Yorkshire) be related to the Angles or some sort of "Celtic" similarity? I've noted the comments about Scotland and Northumbia but I would guess there was "traffic" in various directions from that area (Northumbia)? My percentages from Northern Britain are much higher than I would expect from my paper trail, in fact I have only one "speculative" Scot and that's purely a guess based on surname.
The more I think of it, the more I think some of these unexpected percentages ,may be "old" or some regions are so similar genetically as to be difficult to unravel, which maybe isn't surprising. John

It looks like Welsh Borders, Cumbria, and Northumbria are all pretty close, except C & N have more Scandinavia, whereas Welsh Borders has more Saxon. It wouldn't surprise me at all if your Cumbria and Northumbria turned out to be misplaced Welsh Borders. South Yorkshire might be misplaced Welsh as well, as it supposedly corresponds to the Kingdom of Elmet. I'm guessing Denmark 18 (Dark purple bar) is the population which might Correlate to the Angles, or the Danes, or Both? Is there any way to tell if your Y DNA group is more "Saxon" or "Danish/Anglian"?
I think your Y DNA line could come from just about anywhere Germanic migrants went. I looked up an R1bS21 map which says that after England East (28%), England Central has the next highest amount of your Y haplogroup (24%). Popping over to your Living DNA results, it looks like you scored a high amount of South Central England at 23.8%, and seeing as this borders Wales, I'd place my money on this region as home to your previous paternal ancestors. You also scored a little Central England. I'm not really familiar with your paper trail, so these points could be moot, but as I understand it, there were more Germanic folks that stuck around in the central and southern parts of England rather than the north, which clusters more closely to the Scottish regions.
In case you haven't considered it, that Y DNA ancestor is likely hiding in that large 23% chunk of South Central England. If you have considered & looked into it, I suppose this is of no use!

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-01-2017, 07:52 AM
It looks like Welsh Borders, Cumbria, and Northumbria are all pretty close, except C & N have more Scandinavia, whereas Welsh Borders has more Saxon. It wouldn't surprise me at all if your Cumbria and Northumbria turned out to be misplaced Welsh Borders. South Yorkshire might be misplaced Welsh as well, as it supposedly corresponds to the Kingdom of Elmet. I'm guessing Denmark 18 (Dark purple bar) is the population which might Correlate to the Angles, or the Danes, or Both? Is there any way to tell if your Y DNA group is more "Saxon" or "Danish/Anglian"?
I think your Y DNA line could come from just about anywhere Germanic migrants went. I looked up an R1bS21 map which says that after England East (28%), England Central has the next highest amount of your Y haplogroup (24%). Popping over to your Living DNA results, it looks like you scored a high amount of South Central England at 23.8%, and seeing as this borders Wales, I'd place my money on this region as home to your previous paternal ancestors. You also scored a little Central England. I'm not really familiar with your paper trail, so these points could be moot, but as I understand it, there were more Germanic folks that stuck around in the central and southern parts of England rather than the north, which clusters more closely to the Scottish regions.
In case you haven't considered it, that Y DNA ancestor is likely hiding in that large 23% chunk of South Central England. If you have considered & looked into it, I suppose this is of no use!

I would love to know the answer to that "Y" question Skitbo. Thanks for your thoughts.
As I've said most recent ancestry 200 years+ is close to the border or in Wales although I know of one from Oxfordshire and one from Lincolnshire.
The arrival of my Y must have been somewhere on the coast but maybe they moved inland quite quickly rather than hanging around somewhere for a few hundred years or longer, I don't know. If more British people test, maybe eventually clearer conclusions could be drawn.
I would have thought that anywhere you get a similar ratio of combined Germanic/Scandinavian and "Celtic" would have some similarities but maybe it depends on how distinct (or not) these early populations might have been?
My understanding is that U106 Z326 is fairly widely dispersed. I've been waiting for Dr. Iain Mc Donald to come up with something further on it's origins and distribution. Things may have chaged but my understanding is it was thought that it originated in Southern Scandinavia but accoring to IM is the most "continental" (widely distributed?) of the U106 clades. I've been thinking maybe linked to Swabians or Longobards, but that's just speculation. Maybe it is just too widely dispersed to link to a specific group. John

MacUalraig
03-01-2017, 08:17 AM
Hi Calas
I am 'that chap'.
My Father was not a Gaelic speaker but his parents (and of course their antescedents) were. My Father's antescedents were one of the few of a small group who managed to buy their crofts from the landowners and thus, resisted the clearance from Skye.
Regards

Good to have you on the forum and thanks for the results.

avalon
03-01-2017, 08:42 PM
It looks like Welsh Borders, Cumbria, and Northumbria are all pretty close, except C & N have more Scandinavia, whereas Welsh Borders has more Saxon. It wouldn't surprise me at all if your Cumbria and Northumbria turned out to be misplaced Welsh Borders. South Yorkshire might be misplaced Welsh as well, as it supposedly corresponds to the Kingdom of Elmet. I'm guessing Denmark 18 (Dark purple bar) is the population which might Correlate to the Angles, or the Danes, or Both? Is there any way to tell if your Y DNA group is more "Saxon" or "Danish/Anglian"?


I think you're right that Welsh Borders and Scottish Borders are going to have similar ancestry profiles in the sense that both likely have a Brythonic base with Angles and Saxons and Normans added in but I don't think the LivingDNA test is going to mistake Scottish Borders for Welsh Borders because geographically they are too far apart and the way that autosomalDNA works, people tend to cluster together in close geographic clusters based on fairly recent shared ancestry.

sktibo
03-01-2017, 09:16 PM
I think you're right that Welsh Borders and Scottish Borders are going to have similar ancestry profiles in the sense that both likely have a Brythonic base with Angles and Saxons and Normans added in but I don't think the LivingDNA test is going to mistake Scottish Borders for Welsh Borders because geographically they are too far apart and the way that autosomalDNA works, people tend to cluster together in close geographic clusters based on fairly recent shared ancestry.

Good point. In the living DNA Y thread, it looks like they're having trouble with the Y SNPs. I asked Debbie K if they were also having trouble with autosomal SNPs and she replied that there's an issue with all SNP's... Thus, the living DNA problem could be worse than just having a bias towards English regions. I don't think it's completely off, but I fear that if/when they get these issues with their chip sorted out, it could result in a rather drastic change in our results.
Edit: DebbieK said she thought it could mean a slight change in the results. my use of the word drastic was probably too extreme

firemonkey
03-01-2017, 09:55 PM
Sorry firemonkey. Missed it. Work has been busy.

But it would depend on your family history. Surnames, etc. Where did they come from, etc. You mention fishermen. Fishermen do travel, sailors landing, etc. And 18th-late 17th centuries are still pretty modern in relation to Scottish history. They maybe Scottish doesn't mean they're 100% local.

However, are you used in Living DNA as a Scottish reference? What I am talking about is Living DNA's perceived concepts of "Scottish".


Banffshire and Morayshire surnames include Findlay Levenie Murray Reid Lovie Adamson Watson Geddes Copeland Stewart Thomson Calder Cumming Flett Fordyce Gaut McKenzie Ogilvie Prott Runcie Scot Sharpe Christie Sinclair Robertson Smith Sutherland Urquhart Watt

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-02-2017, 05:49 AM
Good point. In the living DNA Y thread, it looks like they're having trouble with the Y SNPs. I asked Debbie K if they were also having trouble with autosomal SNPs and she replied that there's an issue with all SNP's... Thus, the living DNA problem could be worse than just having a bias towards English regions. I don't think it's completely off, but I fear that if/when they get these issues with their chip sorted out, it could result in a rather drastic change in our results.
Edit: DebbieK said she thought it could mean a slight change in the results. my use of the word drastic was probably too extreme

To be honest, I don't mind if it changes, it is what it is but I would rather have a bit more certainty - it could account maybe for some of the less likely percentages.
I suppose the problem is with rushing new things out. They could maybe have spent longer ironing out any problems, but it has been interesting discussing things. I just hope they get there in the end. :) John

avalon
03-02-2017, 07:55 AM
This is purely an impression on my part but I think from the number of Welsh surnames ( it's a lot) I come across in Herefordshire and the comparatively recent language history, the "Welshness" of this area is sometimes under-estimated. Counties like Herefordshire and Shropshire are thought of today in an English context largely because of a line on a map.


Yes, I'd largely agree with that. If we go back to POBI analysis, the Welsh Borders cluster splits at K=10 and at Devon splits at K=11 so I'd say that along with Cumbria/Northumbria the Welsh Borders probably has a similar ancestry profile to Devon. A mostly Celtic substrate with Anglo-Saxon plus Norman and other bits of more recent admixture added on top of that.

sktibo
03-02-2017, 08:27 AM
Yes, I'd largely agree with that. If we go back to POBI analysis, the Welsh Borders cluster splits at K=10 and at Devon splits at K=11 so I'd say that along with Cumbria/Northumbria the Welsh Borders probably has a similar ancestry profile to Devon. A mostly Celtic substrate with Anglo-Saxon plus Norman and other bits of more recent admixture added on top of that.

I find it particularly interesting that Devon, Cornwall, and the big England Cluster share nearly the exact same amount of N France 17 (35% for Cornwall and Central England, I think 34% for Devon) However, it looks like if it weren't for this larger amount of 17 Devon and Welsh Borders would be very similar. I wish we knew more about #17.

avalon
03-02-2017, 09:29 AM
I find it particularly interesting that Devon, Cornwall, and the big England Cluster share nearly the exact same amount of N France 17 (35% for Cornwall and Central England, I think 34% for Devon) However, it looks like if it weren't for this larger amount of 17 Devon and Welsh Borders would be very similar. I wish we knew more about #17.

Yes, that Northern France 17 component is a mystery. Totally absent from Wales but it is also low for SW Scotland/N Ireland.

There was a suggestion that it was related to an Iron Age migration, such as Belgae, but Northern French genes will also have entered Britain during historic times, particularly since the Norman conquest.

There may also just be an obscure, technical reason why it is absent from Wales.

sktibo
03-02-2017, 09:32 AM
Yes, that Northern France 17 component is a mystery. Totally absent from Wales but it is also low for SW Scotland/N Ireland.

There was a suggestion that it was related to an Iron Age migration, such as Belgae, but Northern French genes will also have entered Britain during historic times, particularly since the Norman conquest.

There may also just be an obscure, technical reason why it is absent from Wales.

I'm inclined to think that the fact that it's at it's highest among the three southernmost British clusters also indicates a more recent migration.. by this I mean post Bronze Age. I don't think you're wrong though, for all we know it could be during historic times. I think it may be the biggest mystery brought to us by the POBI. I wonder if it was due to technicality that it was absent in Wales, hadn't considered that.

A Norfolk L-M20
03-02-2017, 10:05 AM
I'm inclined to think that the fact that it's at it's highest among the three southernmost British clusters also indicates a more recent migration.. by this I mean post Bronze Age. I don't think you're wrong though, for all we know it could be during historic times. I think it may be the biggest mystery brought to us by the POBI. I wonder if it was due to technicality that it was absent in Wales, hadn't considered that.

I always found it odd that people seem to believe that there were only migrations across the Channel and North Sea in historical times. The archaeology of Iron Age Britain suggests a great diversity. From small enclosed farmsteads in the South-West with their Fogou, to the open round house farmsteads of the east, rich in torque finds. The Iron Age British Celts were not a mono-culture by any means. DNA has recently revealed to us three outlier populations of Europe. What we don't understand yet, are all of those movements within Europe that followed during the closing chapters of prehistory.

avalon
03-02-2017, 10:18 AM
I'm inclined to think that the fact that it's at it's highest among the three southernmost British clusters also indicates a more recent migration.. by this I mean post Bronze Age. I don't think you're wrong though, for all we know it could be during historic times. I think it may be the biggest mystery brought to us by the POBI. I wonder if it was due to technicality that it was absent in Wales, hadn't considered that.

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough, I didn't mean that it was exclusively post Norman.

Iron Age is actually the more likely explanation, I was just making the point that post Norman input from France may have added to this component.

A Norfolk L-M20
03-02-2017, 10:23 AM
Being a coward fence sitter, I personally vote for both. Late prehistoric migration from across the Channel and north Sea AND Norman medieval admix. We forget just how narrow that Channel is. Of course the Southern British are close to the Northern French. I even have my DNA twin Helgenes50.

EDIT: Sorry, and I missed out the Roman context. All of that Samian ware scattered in Romano-British soils.

sktibo
03-02-2017, 10:24 AM
Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough, I didn't mean that it was exclusively post Norman.

Iron Age is actually the more likely explanation, I was just making the point that post Norman input from France may have added to this component.

Apologies Avalon, I didn't mean for it to come off like I thought you were implying it came from historic migrations, I thought you meant that you were open to the possibilitiy, which I agree with.

While I'm writing this I just thought of something - I noticed the POBI regions are often multiple regions clumped into one on living DNA... Like the two south Wales clusters, and the two Aberdeenshire clusters.. is an average used between the two to form the living DNA categories? Anyone know or have thoughts on this?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-02-2017, 10:35 AM
Yes, that Northern France 17 component is a mystery. Totally absent from Wales but it is also low for SW Scotland/N Ireland.

There was a suggestion that it was related to an Iron Age migration, such as Belgae, but Northern French genes will also have entered Britain during historic times, particularly since the Norman conquest.

There may also just be an obscure, technical reason why it is absent from Wales.

Brittany? Post - Norman Bretton settlement in the border counties plus earlier migration events up the Bristol Channel? John

angscoire
03-02-2017, 11:31 AM
I always found it odd that people seem to believe that there were only migrations across the Channel and North Sea in historical times. The archaeology of Iron Age Britain suggests a great diversity. From small enclosed farmsteads in the South-West with their Fogou, to the open round house farmsteads of the east, rich in torque finds. The Iron Age British Celts were not a mono-culture by any means. DNA has recently revealed to us three outlier populations of Europe. What we don't understand yet, are all of those movements within Europe that followed during the closing chapters of prehistory.

Indeed . And we have remains from Kent dating from around 1,000 BCE that showed (via isotope analysis) how mobile people were - born in the Isles, Scandinavia and Iberia.

angscoire
03-02-2017, 11:40 AM
I would love to know the answer to that "Y" question Skitbo. Thanks for your thoughts.
As I've said most recent ancestry 200 years+ is close to the border or in Wales although I know of one from Oxfordshire and one from Lincolnshire.
The arrival of my Y must have been somewhere on the coast but maybe they moved inland quite quickly rather than hanging around somewhere for a few hundred years or longer, I don't know. If more British people test, maybe eventually clearer conclusions could be drawn.
I would have thought that anywhere you get a similar ratio of combined Germanic/Scandinavian and "Celtic" would have some similarities but maybe it depends on how distinct (or not) these early populations might have been?
My understanding is that U106 Z326 is fairly widely dispersed. I've been waiting for Dr. Iain Mc Donald to come up with something further on it's origins and distribution. Things may have chaged but my understanding is it was thought that it originated in Southern Scandinavia but accoring to IM is the most "continental" (widely distributed?) of the U106 clades. I've been thinking maybe linked to Swabians or Longobards, but that's just speculation. Maybe it is just too widely dispersed to link to a specific group. John

But as we know , U106 was present in the Isles before the Anglo Saxons ( the York Roman soldiers / gladiators?) . But I agree that most of it likely arrived with post-Roman Germanics - both Anglo-Saxons and Vikings , as geographic distribution suggests.

avalon
03-02-2017, 12:17 PM
While I'm writing this I just thought of something - I noticed the POBI regions are often multiple regions clumped into one on living DNA... Like the two south Wales clusters, and the two Aberdeenshire clusters.. is an average used between the two to form the living DNA categories? Anyone know or have thoughts on this?

Yes, I think LivingDNA probably take an average. From POBI they were basically able to detect two clusters in Pembrokeshire but I don't think the two were that different, although the North Pembrokeshire cluster was more shifted towards North Wales which would make perfect sense in terms of history and Welsh language survival.

Here's what POBI said:


Our analyses within the UK identified two distinct clusters in south Wales around
the county of Pembrokeshire. While they overlap geographically, Fig. 1 shows that
one tends generally to correspond to more northerly locations (N Pembrokeshire)
than the other (S Pembrokeshire). The somewhat larger contribution (Fig. 2) to the
more southerly S Pembrokeshire cluster from BEL11, located in modern Flanders, is
consistent with the known Flemish and English settlement of this area in the 12th
century. A linguistic barrier (the so-called Landsker line) in Pembrokeshire until
relatively recently18, with English spoken to the south, and Welsh to the north, is
likely to have fostered genetic isolation of these two groups. The region to the south
of the Landsker line is colloquially referred to as ‘Little England Beyond Wales’ or in
Welsh as ‘English Pembrokeshire’. There is also a larger contribution from DEN18
(Denmark) to the S Pembrokeshire cluster, consistent with observations of Danish
place names in south Wales19.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-02-2017, 12:55 PM
But as we know , U106 was present in the Isles before the Anglo Saxons ( the York Roman soldiers / gladiators?) . But I agree that most of it likely arrived with post-Roman Germanics - both Anglo-Saxons and Vikings , as geographic distribution suggests.


I'm open minded on it. :)
I believe the previous estimated date specifically for Z326 was relatively recent, about 400 BC if my memory serves me correctly. That lead me to think that a post-Roman arrival in Britain was more likely in my case.
However I believe Dr. Iain McDonald now estimates it formed significantly earlier so it could be a possibility. Pure speculation on my part but because Z326 is so widely distributed I'm wondering whether it could be linked to earlier migration events? Unfortunately I haven't accessed the U106 group recently so not up to date with current thinking. I really don't mind how it arrived here, but it would be very nice to know. Thanks for the observation. John

LaurenceMacD
03-03-2017, 09:28 PM
Hi, this is for those who have been following my quibble with the Living DNA results (I know one or two folks have: particularly Calas and Skitbo)

Further to the query that I have with my results I got this response from Living DNA:

"We do all tend to view the geographical borders we are familiar with as the boundaries for nationality, but in the regions that have been studied and the population samples that have been identified the areas that these were discovered do not always sit neatly with in our current divisions. Our Northumberland population crosses the Scottish borders and is ancestrally equally Scottish and Northern English. Similarly, our Cumbria population is a Scottish borders population. If you Include these two regions, and the Unassigned population, makes you 76.5% Scottish.

We do currently see a challenge with about 10% of your DNA and suspect that with a new update that will come back closer to 86.5% Scottish.

Our sampling from Scotland comes from the Peopling of the British Isles project, and the Scottish samples included are predominantly Southern or North Eastern. We have an active project Scottish research to expand our specific Scottish Regions, which again may change your percentages. If you have ancestry from these populations it must be reconstructed from the populations that we do have, and hence our algorithm may use English, Welsh or Irish ancestry to do this as its the next closest."

Which begs the question why are they using 'political' boundaries to make up the regional %'s when they seem to acknowledge the shortcomings in this themselves!

Regards

Laurence

Dewsloth
03-03-2017, 09:42 PM
But as we know , U106 was present in the Isles before the Anglo Saxons ( the York Roman soldiers / gladiators?) . But I agree that most of it likely arrived with post-Roman Germanics - both Anglo-Saxons and Vikings , as geographic distribution suggests.

Also, at least one DF19. :)

sktibo
03-03-2017, 10:44 PM
Hi, this is for those who have been following my quibble with the Living DNA results (I know one or two folks have: particularly Calas and Skitbo)

Further to the query that I have with my results I got this response from Living DNA:

"We do all tend to view the geographical borders we are familiar with as the boundaries for nationality, but in the regions that have been studied and the population samples that have been identified the areas that these were discovered do not always sit neatly with in our current divisions. Our Northumberland population crosses the Scottish borders and is ancestrally equally Scottish and Northern English. Similarly, our Cumbria population is a Scottish borders population. If you Include these two regions, and the Unassigned population, makes you 76.5% Scottish.

We do currently see a challenge with about 10% of your DNA and suspect that with a new update that will come back closer to 86.5% Scottish.

Our sampling from Scotland comes from the Peopling of the British Isles project, and the Scottish samples included are predominantly Southern or North Eastern. We have an active project Scottish research to expand our specific Scottish Regions, which again may change your percentages. If you have ancestry from these populations it must be reconstructed from the populations that we do have, and hence our algorithm may use English, Welsh or Irish ancestry to do this as its the next closest."

Which begs the question why are they using 'political' boundaries to make up the regional %'s when they seem to acknowledge the shortcomings in this themselves!

Regards

Laurence

Cheers Laurence, I am incredibly excited for this future Scotland update

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-04-2017, 06:48 AM
Hi, this is for those who have been following my quibble with the Living DNA results (I know one or two folks have: particularly Calas and Skitbo)

Further to the query that I have with my results I got this response from Living DNA:

"We do all tend to view the geographical borders we are familiar with as the boundaries for nationality, but in the regions that have been studied and the population samples that have been identified the areas that these were discovered do not always sit neatly with in our current divisions. Our Northumberland population crosses the Scottish borders and is ancestrally equally Scottish and Northern English. Similarly, our Cumbria population is a Scottish borders population. If you Include these two regions, and the Unassigned population, makes you 76.5% Scottish.

We do currently see a challenge with about 10% of your DNA and suspect that with a new update that will come back closer to 86.5% Scottish.

Our sampling from Scotland comes from the Peopling of the British Isles project, and the Scottish samples included are predominantly Southern or North Eastern. We have an active project Scottish research to expand our specific Scottish Regions, which again may change your percentages. If you have ancestry from these populations it must be reconstructed from the populations that we do have, and hence our algorithm may use English, Welsh or Irish ancestry to do this as its the next closest."

Which begs the question why are they using 'political' boundaries to make up the regional %'s when they seem to acknowledge the shortcomings in this themselves!

Regards

Laurence

That's an interesting response and possibly confirms some of my suspicions about similar populations in different regions being difficult to distinguish. Maybe we are expecting too much at this stage. I don't think we should yet regard the results as absolute "fact" but a clue or indicator unless supported by a paper trail.
I suppose the thing is we all tend to think in terms of boundaries in a modern context. I mentioned the other day that the border between England and Wales is artificial in terms of genetic heritage, the same will be true between smaller regions/Counties to some extent. The thing is though if we don't use modern regional boundaries how do you describe ancestry without it becoming meaningless?
If the level of knowledge is sufficient you could maybe define DNA percentages in terms of cultures like Anglo/Saxon or Celtic but it may not tell you much at all about where in Britain or Ireland your ancestors may have come from or it may not even tell you which Country. I can't think of any other way to do it. :)
John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-04-2017, 06:57 AM
Also, at least one DF19. :)

Yes but the big argument probably not worth repeating again is whether they were recent arrivals to Britain? I suppose only more ancient DNA may give us that answer. :) John

sktibo
03-04-2017, 07:02 AM
That's an interesting response and possibly confirms some of my suspicions about similar populations in different regions being difficult to distinguish. Maybe we are expecting too much at this stage. I don't think we should yet regard the results as absolute "fact" but a clue or indicator unless supported by a paper trail.
I suppose the thing is we all tend to think in terms of boundaries in a modern context. I mentioned the other day that the border between England and Wales is artificial in terms of genetic heritage, the same will be true between smaller regions/Counties to some extent. The thing is though if we don't use modern regional boundaries how do you describe ancestry without it becoming meaningless?
If the level of knowledge is sufficient you could maybe define DNA percentages in terms of cultures like Anglo/Saxon or Celtic but it may not tell you much at all about where in Britain or Ireland your ancestors may have come from or it may not even tell you which Country. I can't think of any other way to do it. :)
John

Not 100% sure if this is what you mean, but I think it's incredibly cool to be able to examine the regions in terms of A/S "Celtic" Scandi.. ect.
If we look at the POBI charts, we sort of can already! looking at the Big England cluster and the NW Scotland cluster:

England
Core England
35% North France
22% Denmark-North Germany
15% Germany
10% Brittany
10% Sweden-Norway
8% Belgium
1% France & Spain

So 22% for the Angles and Saxons, and 10% for the Scandinavian "Vikings"

Scotland NW
West Scotland/Northern Ireland
33% Brittany
23% Sweden-Norway
18% North France
13% Germany
6% France & Spain
5% Belgium
2% Denmark-North Germany

23% Scandinavian, 2% Angles and Saxons

Remainders might fall under "Celtic" as they're likely all Iron Age or earlier groups.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-04-2017, 07:12 AM
Well, if we look at the POBI charts, we sort of can already! looking at the Big England cluster and the SW Scotland cluster:

England
Core England
35% North France
22% Denmark-North Germany
15% Germany
10% Brittany
10% Sweden-Norway
8% Belgium
1% France & Spain

So 22% for the Angles and Saxons, and 10% for the Scandinavian "Vikings"

Scotland & Northern Ireland
West Scotland/Northern Ireland
33% Brittany
23% Sweden-Norway
18% North France
13% Germany
6% France & Spain
5% Belgium
2% Denmark-North Germany

23% Scandinavian, 2% Angles and Saxons

But with respect that may not tell the average "tester" much in terms of their ancestral origins within Britain and Ireland which I guess is why most people are buying this test? Of course it is interesting for people who want to look at things in greater depth. :) John

sktibo
03-04-2017, 07:26 AM
But with respect that may not tell the average "tester" much in terms of their ancestral origins within Britain and Ireland which I guess is why most people are buying this test? Of course it is interesting for people who want to look at things in greater depth. :) John

Well, I'm sure it varies a bit, but you're able to add up the percentages per region and get an idea as to what % of your genes came from Germanic peoples and what % came from the earlier populations. the limiting factor is the access to these charts by the numbers, most of them are in bar graphs or pie charts. But yes you're right I suppose it won't tell the average tester that... just us DNA junkies. I wonder if that's a feature people would buy into though? probably wouldn't take much to do.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-04-2017, 09:07 AM
Well, I'm sure it varies a bit, but you're able to add up the percentages per region and get an idea as to what % of your genes came from Germanic peoples and what % came from the earlier populations. the limiting factor is the access to these charts by the numbers, most of them are in bar graphs or pie charts. But yes you're right I suppose it won't tell the average tester that... just us DNA junkies. I wonder if that's a feature people would buy into though? probably wouldn't take much to do.

I suppose it could be "interpreted" for people relatively easily or converted into something that is relatively easy to grasp something like "We estimate X % of your DNA is inherited from the pre- Roman population of Britain and Y % probably arrived with the Norse and Anglo/Saxon migrations". (perhaps more specific to reflect different regional history). It might make a bit more sense than some of this English/Welsh/Scottish stuff. I think people would be interested. Good idea. :) John

03-04-2017, 09:57 AM
I suppose it could be "interpreted" for people relatively easily or converted into something that is relatively easy to grasp something like "We estimate X % of your DNA is inherited from the pre- Roman population of Britain and Y % probably arrived with the Norse and Anglo/Saxon migrations". (perhaps more specific to reflect different regional history). It might make a bit more sense than some of this English/Welsh/Scottish stuff. I think people would be interested. Good idea. :) John

Sounds like it would be a cool feature, if they could determine to a reasonable level of accuracy.

sktibo
03-04-2017, 10:21 AM
Sounds like it would be a cool feature, if they could determine to a reasonable level of accuracy.

Hard to say, I think they might be able to get a decent estimate, every individual is different though. If we had a full list of the percentages for each POBI region/cluster (we currently only have some thanks to Jessie) we could start a thread called "How saxon are you?" or something and add up the totals to see what each of us gets... just need those numbers!

avalon
03-04-2017, 12:13 PM
Hard to say, I think they might be able to get a decent estimate, every individual is different though. If we had a full list of the percentages for each POBI region/cluster (we currently only have some thanks to Jessie) we could start a thread called "How saxon are you?" or something and add up the totals to see what each of us gets... just need those numbers!

As it happens Sktibo we do have the actual ancestry profiles, it's in a spreadsheet in the supplementary info from the POBI paper. See supplementary table 4.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature14230.html#supplementary-information

Where it is tricky though is because certain regions in Continental Europe have contributed to the British/Irish gene pool on more than one occasion. For example, we know Anglo-Saxons came from Germany but it is also highly probable that Bronze Age Indo-Europeans, Bell Beakers, Celts, whatever we call them, also arrived in Britain from a similar source region, say NW Germany, Rhineland area.

That being said, I think we could broadly say that GER6 is perhaps Celtic/Bell Beaker, FRA14 is Celtic but with a more Brythonic lean as it is so high in Wales, whereas GER3 and DEN18 are better signs of Anglo-Saxons/Danes and FRA17 is a bit of mystery, maybe Iron Age French but with added historic input from Northern France.

angscoire
03-04-2017, 12:48 PM
Yes but the big argument probably not worth repeating again is whether they were recent arrivals to Britain? I suppose only more ancient DNA may give us that answer. :) John

Yes , and the new Beaker paper may well enlighten you on the story of U106 - although I don't expect much of it to be found in Beaker , it may contain the odd one or two , and might also show up in samples from other cultures that will also be in said paper for comparative purposes.

avalon
03-04-2017, 12:49 PM
Hi, this is for those who have been following my quibble with the Living DNA results (I know one or two folks have: particularly Calas and Skitbo)

Further to the query that I have with my results I got this response from Living DNA:

"We do all tend to view the geographical borders we are familiar with as the boundaries for nationality, but in the regions that have been studied and the population samples that have been identified the areas that these were discovered do not always sit neatly with in our current divisions. Our Northumberland population crosses the Scottish borders and is ancestrally equally Scottish and Northern English. Similarly, our Cumbria population is a Scottish borders population. If you Include these two regions, and the Unassigned population, makes you 76.5% Scottish.

We do currently see a challenge with about 10% of your DNA and suspect that with a new update that will come back closer to 86.5% Scottish.

Our sampling from Scotland comes from the Peopling of the British Isles project, and the Scottish samples included are predominantly Southern or North Eastern. We have an active project Scottish research to expand our specific Scottish Regions, which again may change your percentages. If you have ancestry from these populations it must be reconstructed from the populations that we do have, and hence our algorithm may use English, Welsh or Irish ancestry to do this as its the next closest."

Which begs the question why are they using 'political' boundaries to make up the regional %'s when they seem to acknowledge the shortcomings in this themselves!

Regards

Laurence

Thanks, interesting email from LivingDNA, it basically confirms a lot of the points that many of us have been making over the last few weeks.

To be fair to LivingDNA though, they have to draw genetic boundaries somewhere on a map and not all of their regions correspond to modern political boundaries.

The "Northumbria" region corresponds almost perfectly to the Medieval Kingdom of the same name, which even going back to the time of the Angles was always part Scottish, part English (along modern boundaries)

Same with the "South Wales Border" region, this includes some modern English counties and some modern Welsh counties. And if we go back to medieval times it corresponds closely with what was called the "Welsh March" a sort of fuzzy, border zone that was part Welsh and part English.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-04-2017, 01:31 PM
Yes , and the new Beaker paper may well enlighten you on the story of U106 - although I don't expect much of it to be found in Beaker , it may contain the odd one or two , and might also show up in samples from other cultures that will also be in said paper for comparative purposes.

Happy to be enlightened. Look forward to it, it's been a long wait though. :) John

sktibo
03-04-2017, 09:53 PM
As it happens Sktibo we do have the actual ancestry profiles, it's in a spreadsheet in the supplementary info from the POBI paper. See supplementary table 4.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature14230.html#supplementary-information

Where it is tricky though is because certain regions in Continental Europe have contributed to the British/Irish gene pool on more than one occasion. For example, we know Anglo-Saxons came from Germany but it is also highly probable that Bronze Age Indo-Europeans, Bell Beakers, Celts, whatever we call them, also arrived in Britain from a similar source region, say NW Germany, Rhineland area.

That being said, I think we could broadly say that GER6 is perhaps Celtic/Bell Beaker, FRA14 is Celtic but with a more Brythonic lean as it is so high in Wales, whereas GER3 and DEN18 are better signs of Anglo-Saxons/Danes and FRA17 is a bit of mystery, maybe Iron Age French but with added historic input from Northern France.

Avalon, you're the best.
This table will definitely allow to do this. However, they might be a small problem with it. I'm looking at supplementary table four. I've got to double check some of the numbers, as there's an inconsistency between the table and the bar graphs/ pie charts.

14374

Everything seems to check out, then I got to northumbria and cumbria, which seem to be reversed. Northumbria has slightly higher FRA 14 on the excel sheet, yet the graph shows the blue bar on cumbria as higher than the Nrthmba. Most noticeably, Germany 3, Saxon, Orange bar on the graph, in the excel sheet is 0.042 for Cumbria, and 0.029 for Northumbria, when the orange bar is clearly higher on the Northumbria side. So these two have been mixed up somewhere along the lines, but which one do we go with as correct? I'll have to look over the other numbers carefully to make sure nothing else seems off.

Dibran
03-04-2017, 11:20 PM
Has anyone had an issue with a low call rate on their sample forcing delay? I now have to wait a total of 4 and a half months for a result, assuming the second sample is fine. This is unfortunate. Between the illumina issue. This. I also paid for the DNA ancestry booklet. Assuming the unfortunate even that my second sample fails will they refund me?

They sure as hell should.

Has this issue happened to anyone? I have had no issues with any vendors I have used.

sktibo
03-04-2017, 11:43 PM
Has anyone had an issue with a low call rate on their sample forcing delay? I now have to wait a total of 4 and a half months for a result, assuming the second sample is fine. This is unfortunate. Between the illumina issue. This. I also paid for the DNA ancestry booklet. Assuming the unfortunate even that my second sample fails will they refund me?

They sure as hell should.

Has this issue happened to anyone? I have had no issues with any vendors I have used.

So far I haven't heard of anyone's second swab failing

E_M81_I3A
03-05-2017, 04:02 PM
I received my results in February :

Europe 75.5%

Europe (South) 47.5%
Europe (North and West) 28%

Africa 11.2%

North Africa 4.7%
Yorubaland 3.9%
Mandinka 1.4%
Nilotic Peoples 1.2%

Near East 7.5%

Levant 4.1%
Arabia 2%
Iran 1.5%

but my percentages (94.2%) do not add up to 100% and I dont see any "unassigned" category.

Has anyone the same issue ?

avalon
03-05-2017, 04:50 PM
Everything seems to check out, then I got to northumbria and cumbria, which seem to be reversed. Northumbria has slightly higher FRA 14 on the excel sheet, yet the graph shows the blue bar on cumbria as higher than the Nrthmba. Most noticeably, Germany 3, Saxon, Orange bar on the graph, in the excel sheet is 0.042 for Cumbria, and 0.029 for Northumbria, when the orange bar is clearly higher on the Northumbria side. So these two have been mixed up somewhere along the lines, but which one do we go with as correct? I'll have to look over the other numbers carefully to make sure nothing else seems off.

Yes, I think the spreadsheet has Northumbria and Cumbria mixed up, as from history I would expect a bit more Anglo-Saxon for Northumbria.

It's going to be a minefield though to unpick these modern day Continental European and British clusters and match them to ancient migrations. I think the Viking genetic impact is easy to spot as if we go with the Norway and Sweden figures then Westray gets 30% and Cornwall gets 5% which makes perfect historic and geographic sense.

The FRA17 and BEL11 components look very complicated though as Northern France, Belgium, Netherlands have been the main source region for genetic input into the Isles throughout pre-history so determining how much of it is pre-Roman and how much is from the middle ages, i.e Flemish settlers in 1100s, would be very difficult.

ollie444
03-05-2017, 07:33 PM
I received my results in February :

Europe 75.5%

Europe (South) 47.5%
Europe (North and West) 28%

Africa 11.2%

North Africa 4.7%
Yorubaland 3.9%
Mandinka 1.4%
Nilotic Peoples 1.2%

Near East 7.5%

Levant 4.1%
Arabia 2%
Iran 1.5%

but my percentages (94.2%) do not add up to 100% and I dont see any "unassigned" category.

Has anyone the same issue ?

I suggest contacting them.

How does this match your known ancestry, are you 3/4 European?

sktibo
03-05-2017, 08:01 PM
Yes, I think the spreadsheet has Northumbria and Cumbria mixed up, as from history I would expect a bit more Anglo-Saxon for Northumbria.

It's going to be a minefield though to unpick these modern day Continental European and British clusters and match them to ancient migrations. I think the Viking genetic impact is easy to spot as if we go with the Norway and Sweden figures then Westray gets 30% and Cornwall gets 5% which makes perfect historic and geographic sense.

The FRA17 and BEL11 components look very complicated though as Northern France, Belgium, Netherlands have been the main source region for genetic input into the Isles throughout pre-history so determining how much of it is pre-Roman and how much is from the middle ages, i.e Flemish settlers in 1100s, would be very difficult.

I also imagine that, similar to what they found in Britain, if there's ever a genetic study of these other countries they may find that the populations there to be closer to iron age populations as well...

We could just pick out Scandinavian, Anglo-Danish, and Saxon, simply calling the rest "remainder"

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-05-2017, 08:47 PM
I also imagine that, similar to what they found in Britain, if there's ever a genetic study of these other countries they may find that the populations there to be closer to iron age populations as well...

We could just pick out Scandinavian, Anglo-Danish, and Saxon, simply calling the rest "remainder"

I think it would be impossible to unravel everything, but something is better than nothing if there is reasonable certainty to it.
Perhaps not really relevant here, but I've been picking up a few comments here and there about possible "Back Migration" from the British Isles to Scandinavia, I think U106 was mentioned, but little detail of how and when. Is there something behind that speculation I wonder or just a mad theory? Maybe there is nothing to it but it would be a bit ironic if Brits went to Scandinavia and returned as "Vikings". :) John

avalon
03-06-2017, 07:38 AM
I also imagine that, similar to what they found in Britain, if there's ever a genetic study of these other countries they may find that the populations there to be closer to iron age populations as well...

We could just pick out Scandinavian, Anglo-Danish, and Saxon, simply calling the rest "remainder"

Yes but we also need to factor in some sort of genetic input from Roman Empire, then there are the Normans, and personally I believe their genetic impact is generally underestimated (and difficult to detect). Post-Norman you also have an assorted mixture of Flemish to various parts of Britain and Ireland plus other medieval inputs from Gascony, other French bits and bobs, Huguenots in the 17th century, Dutch Walloons, Jews, Romany, etc.

My rough guess for Central/Southern England would be 40-45% ancestry from historical input and 55-60% pre-Roman.

sktibo
03-06-2017, 07:53 AM
Yes but we also need to factor in some sort of genetic input from Roman Empire, then there are the Normans, and personally I believe their genetic impact is generally underestimated (and difficult to detect). Post-Norman you also have an assorted mixture of Flemish to various parts of Britain and Ireland plus other medieval inputs from Gascony, other French bits and bobs, Huguenots in the 17th century, Dutch Walloons, Jews, Romany, etc.

My rough guess for Central/Southern England would be 40-45% ancestry from historical input and 55-60% pre-Roman.

I think I mentioned this in another post, so apologies for the repetition but the YouTube documentary "Face of Britain" is about the POBI project and they do have a section (part 3 of the documentary IIRC) about Norman genes. I think they concluded that they couldn't really tell it apart from the other Danish viking DNA, and so in the POBI clusters I think anything Norman is lumped in with Denmark 18... I got the impression it's more or less the same genetic group. Normans have been coming up a lot lately on the forum. A common opinion on the Romans is that they didn't leave a genetic impact on Britain, one reason could be that many of the Romans who came to Britain may not have actually been from Italy, rather, Roman citizens from other populations... if that's the case I suppose we wouldn't be able to pick it up, but who knows. It is rather interesting how recently all this information has been uncovered about the British populations but there's still no trace of those darn Romans.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-06-2017, 09:11 AM
I think I mentioned this in another post, so apologies for the repetition but the YouTube documentary "Face of Britain" is about the POBI project and they do have a section (part 3 of the documentary IIRC) about Norman genes. I think they concluded that they couldn't really tell it apart from the other Danish viking DNA, and so in the POBI clusters I think anything Norman is lumped in with Denmark 18... I got the impression it's more or less the same genetic group. Normans have been coming up a lot lately on the forum. A common opinion on the Romans is that they didn't leave a genetic impact on Britain, one reason could be that many of the Romans who came to Britain may not have actually been from Italy, rather, Roman citizens from other populations... if that's the case I suppose we wouldn't be able to pick it up, but who knows. It is rather interesting how recently all this information has been uncovered about the British populations but there's still no trace of those darn Romans.

I think also the Normans and Brettons may have left more of an impact in certain parts of the Country, including the Welsh Border region but when I say "Normans and Brettons" perhaps we are not looking at a very specific population DNA wise? My very limited reading of their history suggests that in Brittany you had alliances with the Normans and you also had a "Celtic" aspect in Brittany but over-laid by a Frankish (Germanic) presence in other words maybe something similar to what we had historically in Britain. Of course you also have the movement of peoples in earlier periods.
I have a feeling myself that the generalisation that Brettons are "celts" and Normans are "Vikings" may be much too simplistic. Maybe we are looking for differences which really don't exist to that great an extent?
I've mentioned previously about what appears to have been a fairly significant settlement of Brettons in Herefordshire and Gloucestershire and I think in parts of the West Country and Norfolk. There was once a "Frenchman's Street" in Hereford, later re-named.
The French Town.
"Immigration was encouraged by a legal system - the laws of Breteuil - which gave favourable treatment to French settlers. A new cultural element had been introduced which meant that French joined English and Welsh as the languages of the local market places. The language of the ruling class was however French - it would remain so for three hundred years." https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj4-MSfwMHSAhUhJsAKHYSTD8gQFghCMAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iriehost.co.uk%2Fhereford%2Fh istory%2Fthenormans.asp&usg=AFQjCNHKZuyZOQg95m-rSMe-xeuY-qLs1A&sig2=2MIo5nfF-YVau6dTCcfmbQ

As far as the Romans are concerned, I don't know. Maybe with the disintegration of the Roman Empire maybe many, particularly those most associated with Rome just left for safer parts on the continent? The Legions I assume would have been pulled out and their presence was largely come and go before that. I suppose it may be like parts of the British Empire, when there was unrest or uprising, most people just went home or somewhere else? John

sktibo
03-06-2017, 10:15 AM
I think also the Normans and Brettons may have left more of an impact in certain parts of the Country, including the Welsh Border region but when I say "Normans and Brettons" perhaps we are not looking at a very specific population DNA wise? My very limited reading of their history suggests that in Brittany you had alliances with the Normans and you also had a "Celtic" aspect in Brittany but over-laid by a Frankish (Germanic) presence in other words maybe something similar to what we had historically in Britain. Of course you also have the movement of peoples in earlier periods.
I have a feeling myself that the generalisation that Brettons are "celts" and Normans are "Vikings" may be much too simplistic. Maybe we are looking for differences which really don't exist to that great an extent?
I've mentioned previously about what appears to have been a fairly significant settlement of Brettons in Herefordshire and Gloucestershire and I think in parts of the West Country and Norfolk. There was once a "Frenchman's Street" in Hereford, later re-named.
The French Town.
"Immigration was encouraged by a legal system - the laws of Breteuil - which gave favourable treatment to French settlers. A new cultural element had been introduced which meant that French joined English and Welsh as the languages of the local market places. The language of the ruling class was however French - it would remain so for three hundred years." https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj4-MSfwMHSAhUhJsAKHYSTD8gQFghCMAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iriehost.co.uk%2Fhereford%2Fh istory%2Fthenormans.asp&usg=AFQjCNHKZuyZOQg95m-rSMe-xeuY-qLs1A&sig2=2MIo5nfF-YVau6dTCcfmbQ

As far as the Romans are concerned, I don't know. Maybe with the disintegration of the Roman Empire maybe many, particularly those most associated with Rome just left for safer parts on the continent? The Legions I assume would have been pulled out and their presence was largely come and go before that. I suppose it may be like parts of the British Empire, when there was unrest or uprising, most people just went home or somewhere else? John

Hey John, I think you are correct, these populations we discuss and examine may not be very specific DNA wise. Especially what we call "Celtic" which looks to be pretty mixed by time of the Germanic migrations. I think we may have arrived at the end of the line with the knowledge we currently have available to us on these populations. I do wonder what the ethnic makeup of the Normans would be, and I'll admit they're a people I have hardly ever looked into. Perhaps, going along with the theory that they didn't affect the local population much when they came to England, in the same way, what if they didn't affect the population when they arrived in France? Would that make these Normans fall into a category like FRA17 or 14? Just an idea that came to me as I'm writing. What you wrote about the Normans and French Britons must have inspired it. No evidence or research on my part, and I am no expert!

Anyhow, we have the POBI data sheet, we've tested ourselves against the POBI samples, and we have our results. We can't say for sure what is "Celtic", or pre-Germanic, as I'll refer to it now instead of pre roman, since we don't know if or how the Romans affected the population. Luckily, it does give us Scandinavian, Danish and or Anglian, and Saxon. We can call the rest a number of things, but I think it's safe to assume most of it is pre-Germanic. Would you folks be interested in a new thread where we look at our results in this way?

03-06-2017, 11:31 AM
I also imagine that, similar to what they found in Britain, if there's ever a genetic study of these other countries they may find that the populations there to be closer to iron age populations as well...

We could just pick out Scandinavian, Anglo-Danish, and Saxon, simply calling the rest "remainder"

Hey Sktibo, I have been busy with work lately so not been following the threads quite so much, but I watched a BBC, three part series recently (which leaked on YouTube)
Which estimated using the POBI Project data, how likely somebody was Anglo Saxon, or Celtic. Quite an interesting documentary, from a year or so ago, I don't agree on everything it says, but its interesting nevertheless.
The point is, they are already using math to imply statistically how likely somebody is Anglo Saxon or Celt, and this was from the POBI study, so maybe there is no need to reinvent the wheel? If we could get hold of the formula.

Here is the url to first part:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLV63ip7pdI&list=PL-vRsHsClLJ6-T785W1SdmEldmj25LFDB&index=1

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-06-2017, 01:07 PM
Hey John, I think you are correct, these populations we discuss and examine may not be very specific DNA wise. Especially what we call "Celtic" which looks to be pretty mixed by time of the Germanic migrations. I think we may have arrived at the end of the line with the knowledge we currently have available to us on these populations. I do wonder what the ethnic makeup of the Normans would be, and I'll admit they're a people I have hardly ever looked into. Perhaps, going along with the theory that they didn't affect the local population much when they came to England, in the same way, what if they didn't affect the population when they arrived in France? Would that make these Normans fall into a category like FRA17 or 14? Just an idea that came to me as I'm writing. What you wrote about the Normans and French Britons must have inspired it. No evidence or research on my part, and I am no expert!

Anyhow, we have the POBI data sheet, we've tested ourselves against the POBI samples, and we have our results. We can't say for sure what is "Celtic", or pre-Germanic, as I'll refer to it now instead of pre roman, since we don't know if or how the Romans affected the population. Luckily, it does give us Scandinavian, Danish and or Anglian, and Saxon. We can call the rest a number of things, but I think it's safe to assume most of it is pre-Germanic. Would you folks be interested in a new thread where we look at our results in this way?

I'm no expert on the Normans but it seems to me if a relatively small group arrived somewhere they would have quickly inter-married with "locals" and maybe powerful "others" as I believe happened in Wales and Ireland? How "Scandinavian" they were a few generations down the line is an interesting question.
Thinking about the Romans it seems most people say the "Romans" in Britain were quite diverse so even those that remained might be difficult to identify as a specific group because of that diversity. If they were all from Italy there might be something more specific but if British Romans came from all over the Empire and inter-married with locals maybe it isn't surprising that it's hard to find "Roman" DNA in Britain? Might also be difficult to distinguish it from some later arrivals from the Continent.
I like the idea of a new thread myself, it might tell me something athough I'm not sure I'm up to doing the interpretation, :) John

LauraHolland
03-06-2017, 01:17 PM
Really eager for the cautious/complete update, having 16.4% unassigned Europe is quite frustrating at the moment, as I can't use the results to see what patterns there are with other companies results.

Webb
03-06-2017, 02:18 PM
Really eager for the cautious/complete update, having 16.4% unassigned Europe is quite frustrating at the moment, as I can't use the results to see what patterns there are with other companies results.

Hi Laura. Is your testing focused on the Holland surname? I have several 37 marker matches at FTDNA with the surname Holland. I also have numerous 37 marker matches with the surname Vander Hoeven/ Vanderhoof/ Vanderhoff.

ADW_1981
03-06-2017, 03:06 PM
I wonder if this map of Iron Age Britain is insightful.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:South.Britain.Late.Iron.Age.jpg

I would love to read a good book on my ancestors but I don't know where to start. Is it safe to say SW England is more connected to Armorica, and the POBI red "English" cluster linked with ancient Belgians and NE Gaul? EDIT: I see that doesn't seem to be the case from the POBI results... it's a real mix and match of both.

JMcB
03-06-2017, 04:07 PM
.......... A common opinion on the Romans is that they didn't leave a genetic impact on Britain, one reason could be that many of the Romans who came to Britain may not have actually been from Italy, rather, Roman citizens from other populations... if that's the case I suppose we wouldn't be able to pick it up, but who knows. It is rather interesting how recently all this information has been uncovered about the British populations but there's still no trace of those darn Romans.

Coincidentally, I was just reading something the other day that may be germane:

The overall size of the Roman forces in Roman Britain grew from about 40,000 in the mid 1st century AD to a maximum of about 55,000 in the mid 2nd century. the proportion of auxiliaries in Britain grew from about 50% before 69 AD to over 70% in c. 150 AD. By the mid-2nd century, there were about 70 auxiliary regiments in Britain, for a total of over 40,000 men. These outnumbered the 16,500 legionaries in Britain (three Roman legions) by 2.5 to 1. This was the greatest concentration of auxilia in any single province of the Roman Empire

[...]

Of the auxilia units stationed in Britain, none was originally native British - it was the custom not to deploy units in their home country or region. However, the majority came from the geographically and culturally close areas of northern Gaul and lower Rhineland e.g. Batavi, Tungri. Although local recruitment resulted in a growing British element in these regiments, the Batavi at least continued to recruit heavily in their native area and inscription evidence supports the view that many regiments had an international membership.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_auxiliaries_in_Britain

Which would seem to imply that the actual presence of Italic Roman citizens in Britain was fairly small. Especially, when you consider that not all of those legionnaires would have been from Italy because the Legions also recruited from all of the Roman Colonies.

sktibo
03-06-2017, 04:20 PM
Hey Sktibo, I have been busy with work lately so not been following the threads quite so much, but I watched a BBC, three part series recently (which leaked on YouTube)
Which estimated using the POBI Project data, how likely somebody was Anglo Saxon, or Celtic. Quite an interesting documentary, from a year or so ago, I don't agree on everything it says, but its interesting nevertheless.
The point is, they are already using math to imply statistically how likely somebody is Anglo Saxon or Celt, and this was from the POBI study, so maybe there is no need to reinvent the wheel? If we could get hold of the formula.

Here is the url to first part:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLV63ip7pdI&list=PL-vRsHsClLJ6-T785W1SdmEldmj25LFDB&index=1

Hey Sgdavies, good to hear from you. This is the documentary I spoke of earlier actually, IIRC how they determined who was more "Celtic" was by red hair genes.. could be wrong though going off memory. If I am remembering correctly I think this isn't a great method as I'm sure there are plenty of "celts" without red hair variants and plenty of "Saxons" with them. I may be imagining things. It could have been a matter of clusters outside the large red one vs. the clusters that split from it as well, and if that's the case that is what we would be looking at. So there's no reinvention of the wheel going in here, simply taking our scores, and separating the Denmark, Scandinavia, and Saxon (German) from the other groups and seeing what the numbers look like. I think it's important to note the documentary was uploaded in 2014, so it probably dates a good bit earlier than that, while the latest newsletter/ info is dated to march 2015.

ADW_1981
03-06-2017, 04:58 PM
rms2 created a great FTDNA project here (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/red-hair-variants/about/background) for red haired participants. I feel like those documentaries generalize too often. I've yet to really hear which mutations are the most common in which populations other than rs1805008 which is always cited as "common in Irish populations", which I suspect would imply both Britain and Ireland. I suspect the most common being rs1805008 in west European populations but it could be sampling bias in this case. My mum has an allele for rs1805008, and rs1805005, and my father has rs1805007. I inherited the first and last one.

JMcB
03-06-2017, 05:56 PM
Really eager for the cautious/complete update, having 16.4% unassigned Europe is quite frustrating at the moment, as I can't use the results to see what patterns there are with other companies results.

Yes, I know how you feel! I was checking it everyday until I heard they weren't going to make their ETA. Unfortunately, from what they say, we may have a while to wait.

sktibo
03-06-2017, 06:25 PM
rms2 created a great FTDNA project here (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/red-hair-variants/about/background) for red haired participants. I feel like those documentaries generalize too often. I've yet to really hear which mutations are the most common in which populations other than rs1805008 which is always cited as "common in Irish populations", which I suspect would imply both Britain and Ireland. I suspect the most common being rs1805008 in west European populations but it could be sampling bias in this case. My mum has an allele for rs1805008, and rs1805005, and my father has rs1805007. I inherited the first and last one.

Yeah, it was a TV program, so I think that's why they used words like "Celtic" and "Viking" so frequently. I think people would be less interested in "Let's see if you match the large England cluster or the smaller distinct clusters which likely relate to the populations prior to the germanic migrations"

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-06-2017, 06:41 PM
I wonder if this map of Iron Age Britain is insightful.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:South.Britain.Late.Iron.Age.jpg

I would love to read a good book on my ancestors but I don't know where to start. Is it safe to say SW England is more connected to Armorica, and the POBI red "English" cluster linked with ancient Belgians and NE Gaul? EDIT: I see that doesn't seem to be the case from the POBI results... it's a real mix and match of both.

This is from the FB Page "The History of Wales", can't copy the link :-
"Today is St Piran's Day, the national day of the people of Cornwall.
According to legend, Piran was from expelled from Ireland by non-Christians by having a millstone put around his neck and thrown into the stormy sea. Miraculously the sea became calm and the millstone floated, carrying Piran safely to Perran Beach in Perranporth in Cornwall. Here he established a Christian community and founded the Abbey of Lanpiran.
Cornwall and Wales have many historical and cultural connections;
Christianity survived in Britain due in great part to the 5th and 6th 'Celtic Saints' who journeyed along the seaways between Brittany, Cornwall, Wales and Ireland evangelising and spreading the Word of God. Collen, Samson and Cadog travelled from Wales to Cornwall and Petroc is credited as founding the monasteries at Padstow and Bodmin. King Constantine of Cornwall is thought to have studied at Saint David's monastery and David's mother, Non moved to Altarnun in Cornwall in her later years to be with her sister St Wenna.
The post-Roman Brythonic tribe of Dumnonia dominated the modern day area of Devon, Cornwall and part of Somerset and like the tribes in modern day Wales, were successful in resisting the expansion of the Anglo-Saxons which in Dumnomia's case was the Kingdom of Wessex. However, by the mid 9th century Devon had became absorbed into Wessex but Cornwall still held its identity separate from that of England. In 936 Athelstan fixed Cornwall's eastern boundary at the Tamar and during the rule of Canute, King of England, Cornwall was not included in his territories.
As in Wales it was the Norman invasion of 1066 that eventually led to Cornwall's annexation by England although again as in Wales, it was and remains the insistence of many Cornish people to hold on to their cultural and historical identity that has resulted in them being recognised in by the UK government and afforded protection as a distinct group in 2014.
The Cornish language (Kernowek) is an important part of Cornwall's identity. In recent years it is undergoing a revival and is now recognised as a minority language of the UK, with many people now studying it and several works of literature using it have been published. Like Welsh, it is descended from Common Brittonic, the language spoken throughout much of Britain during the Iron Age. Over the centuries this language split into several dialects, evolving into Cornish and Welsh, as well as Breton, and Cumbric.
In the early 18th century, the Welsh linguist Edward Lhuyd accepted an invitation from a group of historians from Cornwall to study the Cornish language. He noticed similarities in the Brythonic language group of Breton, Cornish and Welsh and the Goidelic group of Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic. Lhuyd concluded that the people who spoke these languages were Celts and resulted in a strong Celtic identity emerging between them.
The two royal titles, Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall, are held by the same individual, the eldest son of the reigning British monarch.
Gorsedh Kernow (Cornish Gorsedd), based on the Welsh Gorsedd was established in 1928. It organises the annual Esedhvos Kernow (Cornish Eisteddfod) aimed at celebrating and promoting Cornwall's Celtic heritage and cultural identity." John

14388

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-06-2017, 06:49 PM
Coincidentally, I was just reading something the other day that may be germane:

The overall size of the Roman forces in Roman Britain grew from about 40,000 in the mid 1st century AD to a maximum of about 55,000 in the mid 2nd century. the proportion of auxiliaries in Britain grew from about 50% before 69 AD to over 70% in c. 150 AD. By the mid-2nd century, there were about 70 auxiliary regiments in Britain, for a total of over 40,000 men. These outnumbered the 16,500 legionaries in Britain (three Roman legions) by 2.5 to 1. This was the greatest concentration of auxilia in any single province of the Roman Empire

[...]

Of the auxilia units stationed in Britain, none was originally native British - it was the custom not to deploy units in their home country or region. However, the majority came from the geographically and culturally close areas of northern Gaul and lower Rhineland e.g. Batavi, Tungri. Although local recruitment resulted in a growing British element in these regiments, the Batavi at least continued to recruit heavily in their native area and inscription evidence supports the view that many regiments had an international membership.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_auxiliaries_in_Britain

Which would seem to imply that the actual presence of Italic Roman citizens in Britain was fairly small. Especially, when you consider that not all of those legionnaires would have been from Italy because the Legions also recruited from all of the Roman Colonies.

There was a television programme recently which speculated that considerable numbers of Roman - period headless skeletons found in London were "British" victims of Auxiliaries from Gaul, the "cultural similarities" between the two including a tendency to collect heads. :) John

JMcB
03-06-2017, 09:26 PM
This is from the FB Page "The History of Wales", can't copy the link :-
"Today is St Piran's Day, the national day of the people of Cornwall.
According to legend, Piran was from expelled from Ireland by non-Christians by having a millstone put around his neck and thrown into the stormy sea. Miraculously the sea became calm and the millstone floated, carrying Piran safely to Perran Beach in Perranporth in Cornwall. Here he established a Christian community and founded the Abbey of Lanpiran.
Cornwall and Wales have many historical and cultural connections;
Christianity survived in Britain due in great part to the 5th and 6th 'Celtic Saints' who journeyed along the seaways between Brittany, Cornwall, Wales and Ireland evangelising and spreading the Word of God. Collen, Samson and Cadog travelled from Wales to Cornwall and Petroc is credited as founding the monasteries at Padstow and Bodmin. King Constantine of Cornwall is thought to have studied at Saint David's monastery and David's mother, Non moved to Altarnun in Cornwall in her later years to be with her sister St Wenna.
The post-Roman Brythonic tribe of Dumnonia dominated the modern day area of Devon, Cornwall and part of Somerset and like the tribes in modern day Wales, were successful in resisting the expansion of the Anglo-Saxons which in Dumnomia's case was the Kingdom of Wessex. However, by the mid 9th century Devon had became absorbed into Wessex but Cornwall still held its identity separate from that of England. In 936 Athelstan fixed Cornwall's eastern boundary at the Tamar and during the rule of Canute, King of England, Cornwall was not included in his territories.
As in Wales it was the Norman invasion of 1066 that eventually led to Cornwall's annexation by England although again as in Wales, it was and remains the insistence of many Cornish people to hold on to their cultural and historical identity that has resulted in them being recognised in by the UK government and afforded protection as a distinct group in 2014.
The Cornish language (Kernowek) is an important part of Cornwall's identity. In recent years it is undergoing a revival and is now recognised as a minority language of the UK, with many people now studying it and several works of literature using it have been published. Like Welsh, it is descended from Common Brittonic, the language spoken throughout much of Britain during the Iron Age. Over the centuries this language split into several dialects, evolving into Cornish and Welsh, as well as Breton, and Cumbric.
In the early 18th century, the Welsh linguist Edward Lhuyd accepted an invitation from a group of historians from Cornwall to study the Cornish language. He noticed similarities in the Brythonic language group of Breton, Cornish and Welsh and the Goidelic group of Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic. Lhuyd concluded that the people who spoke these languages were Celts and resulted in a strong Celtic identity emerging between them.
The two royal titles, Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall, are held by the same individual, the eldest son of the reigning British monarch.
Gorsedh Kernow (Cornish Gorsedd), based on the Welsh Gorsedd was established in 1928. It organises the annual Esedhvos Kernow (Cornish Eisteddfod) aimed at celebrating and promoting Cornwall's Celtic heritage and cultural identity." John

14388

According to LivingDNA I'm 4.8% Cornish. ;-)

ollie444
03-07-2017, 11:01 AM
According to LivingDNA I'm 4.8% Cornish. ;-)

Snap!

LauraHolland
03-07-2017, 01:09 PM
Hi Laura. Is your testing focused on the Holland surname? I have several 37 marker matches at FTDNA with the surname Holland. I also have numerous 37 marker matches with the surname Vander Hoeven/ Vanderhoof/ Vanderhoff.

Hiya, it is the line I would like to get further on, I am stumped by 1800, I have my raw data uploaded to FTDNA, I did try to join the Holland project from memory but was never accepted.

avalon
03-08-2017, 08:44 AM
I think also the Normans and Brettons may have left more of an impact in certain parts of the Country, including the Welsh Border region but when I say "Normans and Brettons" perhaps we are not looking at a very specific population DNA wise? My very limited reading of their history suggests that in Brittany you had alliances with the Normans and you also had a "Celtic" aspect in Brittany but over-laid by a Frankish (Germanic) presence in other words maybe something similar to what we had historically in Britain. Of course you also have the movement of peoples in earlier periods.
I have a feeling myself that the generalisation that Brettons are "celts" and Normans are "Vikings" may be much too simplistic. Maybe we are looking for differences which really don't exist to that great an extent?
I've mentioned previously about what appears to have been a fairly significant settlement of Brettons in Herefordshire and Gloucestershire and I think in parts of the West Country and Norfolk. There was once a "Frenchman's Street" in Hereford, later re-named.
The French Town.
"Immigration was encouraged by a legal system - the laws of Breteuil - which gave favourable treatment to French settlers. A new cultural element had been introduced which meant that French joined English and Welsh as the languages of the local market places. The language of the ruling class was however French - it would remain so for three hundred years." https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj4-MSfwMHSAhUhJsAKHYSTD8gQFghCMAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iriehost.co.uk%2Fhereford%2Fh istory%2Fthenormans.asp&usg=AFQjCNHKZuyZOQg95m-rSMe-xeuY-qLs1A&sig2=2MIo5nfF-YVau6dTCcfmbQ

As far as the Romans are concerned, I don't know. Maybe with the disintegration of the Roman Empire maybe many, particularly those most associated with Rome just left for safer parts on the continent? The Legions I assume would have been pulled out and their presence was largely come and go before that. I suppose it may be like parts of the British Empire, when there was unrest or uprising, most people just went home or somewhere else? John

You may find this essay very interesting. It goes into a lot of detail about the Normans in Herefordshire and in South Wales.

http://vlib.iue.it/carrie/texts/carrie_books/nelson/index.html

avalon
03-08-2017, 09:12 AM
Hey John, I think you are correct, these populations we discuss and examine may not be very specific DNA wise. Especially what we call "Celtic" which looks to be pretty mixed by time of the Germanic migrations. I think we may have arrived at the end of the line with the knowledge we currently have available to us on these populations. I do wonder what the ethnic makeup of the Normans would be, and I'll admit they're a people I have hardly ever looked into. Perhaps, going along with the theory that they didn't affect the local population much when they came to England, in the same way, what if they didn't affect the population when they arrived in France? Would that make these Normans fall into a category like FRA17 or 14? Just an idea that came to me as I'm writing. What you wrote about the Normans and French Britons must have inspired it. No evidence or research on my part, and I am no expert!



The real difficulty in detecting "Norman" DNA is that they were a bit of a mixed bag when they invaded England. They had Danish viking roots but in Normandy they had presumably intermixed with the existing population which itself had Frankish (Germanic) and before that Gallo-Roman ancestry. The army that invaded England also consisted of Bretons, Flemings and other French contingents such as Picardy and then after the conquest there is likely further immigration from the continent with merchants, etc.

And the real problem with this, is that all these Norman and post-Norman arrivals are coming from areas that have previously contributed to the British gene pool (Germanic migrations, possibly Roman, pre-historic) so how can we tell what is post Norman and what is earlier?

Personally I think I good chunk of "Norman" genetic input is within the FRA17 component.

sktibo
03-08-2017, 09:33 AM
The real difficulty in detecting "Norman" DNA is that they were a bit of a mixed bag when they invaded England. They had Danish viking roots but in Normandy they had presumably intermixed with the existing population which itself had Frankish (Germanic) and before that Gallo-Roman ancestry. The army that invaded England also consisted of Bretons, Flemings and other French contingents such as Picardy and then after the conquest there is likely further immigration from the continent with merchants, etc.

And the real problem with this, is that all these Norman and post-Norman arrivals are coming from areas that have previously contributed to the British gene pool (Germanic migrations, possibly Roman, pre-historic) so how can we tell what is post Norman and what is earlier?

Personally I think I good chunk of "Norman" genetic input is within the FRA17 component.

I think this is a particularly interesting theory. One way we could almost check it might be to examine Devon and Cornwall, because they've got the highest FRA 17 along with the big England cluster. Can we find out if there was evidence of Norman settlement in these areas?

avalon
03-08-2017, 12:31 PM
I think this is a particularly interesting theory. One way we could almost check it might be to examine Devon and Cornwall, because they've got the highest FRA 17 along with the big England cluster. Can we find out if there was evidence of Norman settlement in these areas?

Don't know too much about history of Devon and Cornwall but the Normans did replace the Anglo-Saxons as the ruling elite almost everywhere in England. The Norman conquest is a watershed in English history, William and his followers take all the land and they have the military power. They are the medieval aristocracy of England.

As a ruling elite though, the assumption has always been that they can't have had much of a genetic impact on the wider population but I think it may have been underestimated somewhat. Their power and wealth must have given them an advantage genetically.

avalon
03-08-2017, 01:37 PM
I think this is a particularly interesting theory. One way we could almost check it might be to examine Devon and Cornwall, because they've got the highest FRA 17 along with the big England cluster. Can we find out if there was evidence of Norman settlement in these areas?

I don't have much information from Devon I'm afraid, only this from Brittania
http://www.britannia.com/history/devon/devon.html


After King William the Conqueror's successful invasion of Britain, in 1066, he quickly recognised the importance of securing the West Country. He besieged Exeter for eighteen days before honourable terms were agreed for its surrender. Like the rest of the country, the rich Devon farmland was divided up amongst William's Norman Barons. Chief amongst these 'honours' were Plympton, Okehampton, Barnstaple, Harberton and Totnes. The descendants of these men became famous Devon families. Plympton was bestowed on the Redvers in the 12th century along with the Earldom of Devon. Thse later passed to the Courtenay family, who also possessed Okehampton. The Dukedom of Exeter was given to the Hollands in the 14th century, but they became extinct in the male line in the reign of Edward IV. The ancestors of Sir Walter Raleigh, who was born and grew up at East Budleigh, also for long held considerable estates in the county.

ADW_1981
03-08-2017, 03:01 PM
Don't know too much about history of Devon and Cornwall but the Normans did replace the Anglo-Saxons as the ruling elite almost everywhere in England. The Norman conquest is a watershed in English history, William and his followers take all the land and they have the military power. They are the medieval aristocracy of England.

As a ruling elite though, the assumption has always been that they can't have had much of a genetic impact on the wider population but I think it may have been underestimated somewhat. Their power and wealth must have given them an advantage genetically.

Devon and Cornwall have sizeable "Danish" input as well in PoBI study which I believe is part of the reason why they are considered closer to the rest of England rather than Wales. For instance, my results displayed just over 10% Cornwall, my father's would likely have much more. I'm descended from this family who are miners and smiths and were engineers during WWII. By surname, it doesn't exactly look insular Celtic, they may have arrived from the east, or even an areas outside England originally.
https://cambornetown.com/about-camborne/our-history/mining-holmans

sktibo
03-08-2017, 05:28 PM
I don't have much information from Devon I'm afraid, only this from Brittania
http://www.britannia.com/history/devon/devon.html

Very interesting. It sounds like we need to dig up an expert on Devon, Cornwall, and the Normans. In the meantime I'll give it a quick search in the old library.

Found this: "William's suppression of the south-western revolt of 1067-68 resulted in the construction of a large ringwork castle in the city of Exeter; the building of other castles in the region followed." Seems to indicate that there were a lot of Norman castles in the SW of England, as you've already said. One thing that came to mind while I was looking for this was that there were quite a few Norman fortifications in Wales, I'm thinking of Caernarvon in particular, and yet Wales is devoid of FRA 17. I'll post if I find anything else of value

03-08-2017, 07:53 PM
Very interesting. It sounds like we need to dig up an expert on Devon, Cornwall, and the Normans. In the meantime I'll give it a quick search in the old library.

Found this: "William's suppression of the south-western revolt of 1067-68 resulted in the construction of a large ringwork castle in the city of Exeter; the building of other castles in the region followed." Seems to indicate that there were a lot of Norman castles in the SW of England, as you've already said. One thing that came to mind while I was looking for this was that there were quite a few Norman fortifications in Wales, I'm thinking of Caernarvon in particular, and yet Wales is devoid of FRA 17. I'll post if I find anything else of value
You could consider the Welsh castles as Phase 2 of the Norman Conquest as, they came mostly a few generations later after the consolidation of England. The English ones at least the original first builds would of been Morte and Bailey, so might be woth searching for Original Morte and Bailey castles in the South West.

http://www.etrusia.co.uk/castle_list.php
Quick search found this for Eng and Wales.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-08-2017, 08:23 PM
Very interesting. It sounds like we need to dig up an expert on Devon, Cornwall, and the Normans. In the meantime I'll give it a quick search in the old library.

Found this: "William's suppression of the south-western revolt of 1067-68 resulted in the construction of a large ringwork castle in the city of Exeter; the building of other castles in the region followed." Seems to indicate that there were a lot of Norman castles in the SW of England, as you've already said. One thing that came to mind while I was looking for this was that there were quite a few Norman fortifications in Wales, I'm thinking of Caernarvon in particular, and yet Wales is devoid of FRA 17. I'll post if I find anything else of value

With Cornwall and maybe Devon to a lesser extent possibly we have to consider connections to Wales Brittany and adjacent regions of France over quite a long time period. Like some others I score some "Cornwall" on the living DNA test but I think in my case it's unlikely to be actual Cornish ancestry, but rather something which may be similar to old "Welsh" or maybe even the Bretton, although of course there are other possibilities. Maybe the "French" influence in Wales, if it exists at all, relates more to the Brittany region than other regions of France purely because of proximity in terms of sea travel.
Just as an aside not too long back it used to be common to see Bretton onion sellers in South Wales and I think one or two still come over. It's claimed they could converse with Welsh speakers at least to the point of being able to understand each other. Maybe such contacts go back a very long way. John

14412

sktibo
03-08-2017, 10:05 PM
So I did some basic Wikipedia reading on Normans. It claims that 1. The Normans intermarried with the local population, so if it's anything like the Saxons in England, they were probably more indigenous French than Scandinavian. 2. It says they were few in number compared to the native English population, including those from other parts of France, estimated 8000 Norman landowners.
So it seems they definitely fit the bill for FRA 17. However, this category is absolutely massive for England, Devon, and Cornwall, and we can't be sure there were that many of them (yet, come on, Norman specialist.. we have too many celt enthusiasts and not enough of the rest!) But, I think it could be that FRA 17 isn't representative of one migration or group of people. The Normans may make up a smaller percentage of this group, and could definitely be one of the contributing factors to its dominant presence in the South English regions

Jessie
03-09-2017, 03:27 AM
Wouldn't the Brittany region show a relatedness to Wales due to 5th Century migrations from the UK to Brittany? There was a dna study on Northern France that found Brittany was most similar to the Irish but you would have hoped they included the Welsh and not just a British cluster.

Avalon posted about this originally.

I found this interesting but I'm not sure whether they separated the UK regions. Possibly they would have found a higher IBS between Bretons and Welsh.


When computing pairwise IBS, for individuals from this merged data set, we observed that the European countries showing the largest mean IBS with the DESIR-CavsGen individuals were France, UK, Ireland, followed by Germany and Belgium, followed by Spain and Italy (Figure 3 and Supplementary Figure 8). The IBS pattern differed according to French Regions, with the Brittany Region having a specific pattern. The countries that had the largest IBS with the Breton individuals were Ireland, UK and France in this order (Figure 3). The IBS between Irish and Bretons was significantly larger (Po1012) than the IBS between Irish and individuals from the other regions of Western France (Normandy, Pays de Loire, Poitou-Charente, Centre), and this pattern was also found with the control DESIR-REP data set (Supplementary Figure 9). Conversely, the IBS between Spanish (or Italians) and Bretons was significantly smaller (Po1012) than the IBS between Spanish (or Italian) and individuals from the other regions of Western France (Figure 3).

http://membres-timc.imag.fr/Nicolas.Duforet-Frebourg/papers/finescale.pdf

People might find this earlier article from the PoBI interesting.


It was clear that the Orkney islanders had Norwegian ancestors, while the red central and southern English cluster had the largest Belgian, Danish and German contribution (relating to the Anglo-Saxon invasion and perhaps later supplemented in places by the Vikings). The Cornish and Welsh had more similarity with the modern French, while people in Northern Ireland and Western Scotland have substantial common Irish ancestry.

http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/features/what-makes-british

Ron from PA
03-09-2017, 04:21 AM
Results came today were due on the 20th.
I consider myself Pennsylvania colonial I estimate i'm 65-70% PA Dutch (German) and 25-30% British, based on paper trail and DNA testing. I took this test to hopefully determine where my British is from.

Great Britain and Ireland 82.6%

Southeast England 12.9%
Lincolnshire 11.9%
East Anglia 8.7%
South Central England 6.7%
Cornwall 6%
South Yorkshire 5.2%
Northumbria 5.1%
South England 4.8%
Devon 4.4%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 2.8%
Northwest England 2.7%
Cumbria 2.2%
South Wales Border 2%
Central England 1.6%
Great Britain and Ireland unassigned 5.4%

France 8.5%
Europe unassigned 6.4%

World unassigned 2.4%

Any thoughts most welcome. I was concerned with being primarily German my results could be wrong. I read somewhere they have few or no samples from SW Germany which is where most of my German comes from. Once I read that figured my German could be completely missed.

Can I trust that the British I do have is almost completely English?. I do think my British is mainly English.

deadly77
03-09-2017, 05:26 AM
Here's my autosomal results (received today).

First a quick recap of my calculated ethnicity percentage from my paper trail of 64 gggg-grandparents (slight updated from another thread based on a recently found baptism record). These numbers are extremely conservative so if I don't have direct evidence an ancestor was born there, I'm marking it as unknown. I could inflate the numbers for Northumbria (a lot) and East Anglia if I made some assumptions. But anyway:

Northumbria 31.2%
South Yorkshire 12.48%
Cumbria 6.24%
East Anglia 6.24%
Ireland 6.24%
Northern Europe (I-M253 paternal line ancestor) 1.56%
Europe (J1c12b ancestor) 1.56%
Unknown 34.32%

LivingDNA:

Great Britain and Ireland 98.5%, unassigned 1.5%.

Northumbria 26.4%
Northwest England 22.2%
South Yorkshire 8.4%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 7.7%
South Central England 6.7%
Cumbria 6.4%
South Wales Border 6.2%
Devon 4%
Central England 2.8%
GB/IRE unassigned 7.2%
World unassigned 1.5%

What I expected:

Northumbria is my largest percentage. However, I thought it would be higher based on my paper trail, especially if I was less conservative. All of my recent family is from here and I have multiple lines that have been in the area for a long time.
South Yorkshire - I have different lines from both parents (Dewsbury on one side, Leeds on the other) that eventually ended up in the Northeast around the 1870s.
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland - gg-grandfather was born in Carlingford, Louth. Given the LivingDNA graphical boundary distribution, that conceivably fall under that region. Other Scottish is a little spurious - my gg-grandmother who married my Irish ancestor lists herself as born in Scotland on every England census she is on, but I can't find any record where I'm sure it's her in Scottish records. I'm also pretty sure my ggg-grandfather on my Y line was illegitimate, and more than half my Y-DNA matches are with people named Gordon in Scotland. However, no strong paper trail to back up either Scottish connection.
Cumbria - Two of my ggg-grandparents were born in Cumbria but got married in Gateshead in 1845.

What I didn't expect:

No East Anglia: my paper trail has both of my gg-grandparents on that line born in Norfolk. My gg-grandmother in Great Yarmouth but struggling to find her before that. However, gg-grandfather born in South Walsham, Norfolk and not much movement among his ancestors going back to the 1700s.
Northwest England: This was the biggest surprise given the percentage. I have no known ancestors from that area. The closest I can think of would be when my Irish and Scottish ancestors married in Barrow-in-Furness but neither of them were born or from there.
South Central England, South Wales Border, Devon, Central England: Absolutely no idea, the closest I have in a paper trail is a gggg-grandfather born in Kent.

I have two illegitimate situations that I'm aware of - my Y line ancestor that I talked about above (1831), and also a gggg-grandmother listed as baseborn in Norfolk (1797).

I'm really surprised by the very high percentage of Northwest England and also from the Southwest.

I'll have to go and have a look back at everyone else's results.

sktibo
03-09-2017, 05:58 AM
Here's my autosomal results (received today).

First a quick recap of my calculated ethnicity percentage from my paper trail of 64 gggg-grandparents (slight updated from another thread based on a recently found baptism record). These numbers are extremely conservative so if I don't have direct evidence an ancestor was born there, I'm marking it as unknown. I could inflate the numbers for Northumbria (a lot) and East Anglia if I made some assumptions. But anyway:

Northumbria 31.2%
South Yorkshire 12.48%
Cumbria 6.24%
East Anglia 6.24%
Ireland 6.24%
Northern Europe (I-M253 paternal line ancestor) 1.56%
Europe (J1c12b ancestor) 1.56%
Unknown 34.32%

LivingDNA:

Great Britain and Ireland 98.5%, unassigned 1.5%.

Northumbria 26.4%
Northwest England 22.2%
South Yorkshire 8.4%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 7.7%
South Central England 6.7%
Cumbria 6.4%
South Wales Border 6.2%
Devon 4%
Central England 2.8%
GB/IRE unassigned 7.2%
World unassigned 1.5%

What I expected:

Northumbria is my largest percentage. However, I thought it would be higher based on my paper trail, especially if I was less conservative. All of my recent family is from here and I have multiple lines that have been in the area for a long time.
South Yorkshire - I have different lines from both parents (Dewsbury on one side, Leeds on the other) that eventually ended up in the Northeast around the 1870s.
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland - gg-grandfather was born in Carlingford, Louth. Given the LivingDNA graphical boundary distribution, that conceivably fall under that region. Other Scottish is a little spurious - my gg-grandmother who married my Irish ancestor lists herself as born in Scotland on every England census she is on, but I can't find any record where I'm sure it's her in Scottish records. I'm also pretty sure my ggg-grandfather on my Y line was illegitimate, and more than half my Y-DNA matches are with people named Gordon in Scotland. However, no strong paper trail to back up either Scottish connection.
Cumbria - Two of my ggg-grandparents were born in Cumbria but got married in Gateshead in 1845.

What I didn't expect:

No East Anglia: my paper trail has both of my gg-grandparents on that line born in Norfolk. My gg-grandmother in Great Yarmouth but struggling to find her before that. However, gg-grandfather born in South Walsham, Norfolk and not much movement among his ancestors going back to the 1700s.
Northwest England: This was the biggest surprise given the percentage. I have no known ancestors from that area. The closest I can think of would be when my Irish and Scottish ancestors married in Barrow-in-Furness but neither of them were born or from there.
South Central England, South Wales Border, Devon, Central England: Absolutely no idea, the closest I have in a paper trail is a gggg-grandfather born in Kent.

I have two illegitimate situations that I'm aware of - my Y line ancestor that I talked about above (1831), and also a gggg-grandmother listed as baseborn in Norfolk (1797).

I'm really surprised by the very high percentage of Northwest England and also from the Southwest.

I'll have to go and have a look back at everyone else's results.

You estimated 6.24% Irish, but got 0, didn't estimate any SW Scot and got 7.7%, throw in the Living DNA technical note that says it has trouble differentiating SW Scot, NW Scot, and Ireland, and I think we may have found your Ireland percentage.
26.4% Northumbria! Crazy. You only beat me by .2% as I'm 26.2%. Perhaps my North Irish ancestors really were ex border reivers? one explanation for it anyhow. A big welcome to the "No Cornwall Club" too. Your results look pretty good next to your estimate but there are some mysteries. I think it's fair to say this test has a little ways to go yet.

deadly77
03-09-2017, 06:28 AM
You estimated 6.24% Irish, but got 0, didn't estimate any SW Scot and got 7.7%, throw in the Living DNA technical note that says it has trouble differentiating SW Scot, NW Scot, and Ireland, and I think we may have found your Ireland percentage.
26.4% Northumbria! Crazy. You only beat me by .2% as I'm 26.2%. Perhaps my North Irish ancestors really were ex border reivers? one explanation for it anyhow. A big welcome to the "No Cornwall Club" too. Your results look pretty good next to your estimate but there are some mysteries. I think it's fair to say this test has a little ways to go yet.

Yes, I'm in the no Cornwall club and also in the no Tuscany Club :)

My Irish comes from Carlingford, County Louth. It's geographically very close to Northern Ireland. See here for a graphic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Louth

At the time they moved to England (between 1875 and 1878) political borders were different, so they described themselves as Ireland on the census.

Yeah, I'm really surprised by the low Northumbria. It's several generations and multiple lines in this area. I could easily bump the estimate to 49.92% if I make some assumptions based in the next generations birthplaces.

I still like the Border Reiver theory for your ancestors, but my ancestors stayed in the area and so should have a larger percentage. Plus a lot of Reiver clan names in several lines of my family.

avalon
03-09-2017, 06:47 AM
So I did some basic Wikipedia reading on Normans. It claims that 1. The Normans intermarried with the local population, so if it's anything like the Saxons in England, they were probably more indigenous French than Scandinavian. 2. It says they were few in number compared to the native English population, including those from other parts of France, estimated 8000 Norman landowners.
So it seems they definitely fit the bill for FRA 17. However, this category is absolutely massive for England, Devon, and Cornwall, and we can't be sure there were that many of them (yet, come on, Norman specialist.. we have too many celt enthusiasts and not enough of the rest!) But, I think it could be that FRA 17 isn't representative of one migration or group of people. The Normans may make up a smaller percentage of this group, and could definitely be one of the contributing factors to its dominant presence in the South English regions

Don't take my word for it on FRA17, I might be wrong! :biggrin1:It's just I know the Normans must have had some sort genetic impact on Britain given that they for the best part of 1000 years they and their descendants have owned the land, controlled the state, controlled the church and had such an influence on the course of British history.

IMO, FRA17 is still largely related to to pre-Roman population as there were strong links between Northern France and Southern England in the Iron Age.

Also, I think John mentioned it earlier but the Norman army also included a considerable Breton element so if these guys had a genetic impact then it could have bumped up the FRA14 component too.

avalon
03-09-2017, 07:06 AM
With Cornwall and maybe Devon to a lesser extent possibly we have to consider connections to Wales Brittany and adjacent regions of France over quite a long time period. Like some others I score some "Cornwall" on the living DNA test but I think in my case it's unlikely to be actual Cornish ancestry, but rather something which may be similar to old "Welsh" or maybe even the Bretton, although of course there are other possibilities. Maybe the "French" influence in Wales, if it exists at all, relates more to the Brittany region than other regions of France purely because of proximity in terms of sea travel.


Indeed, the links between Wales, Cornwall and Brittany go back thousands of years. Barry Cunliffe in "Britain Begins" covers this in a lot of detail starting really with Armorican derived megaliths way back during the Neolithic and then there is Maritime Bell Beaker in the Bronze Age and he also talks about a cultural "Atlantic Zone" in the Iron Age which was basically SW Britain, South coast of Ireland and Western France typified by "Llyn fawr hoards and Armorican axes."

And then as Jessie said, the high FRA14 component in Wales is also down to the migration of Britons in the 5th century to Brittany.

sktibo
03-09-2017, 08:19 AM
Yes, I'm in the no Cornwall club and also in the no Tuscany Club :)

My Irish comes from Carlingford, County Louth. It's geographically very close to Northern Ireland. See here for a graphic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Louth

At the time they moved to England (between 1875 and 1878) political borders were different, so they described themselves as Ireland on the census.

Yeah, I'm really surprised by the low Northumbria. It's several generations and multiple lines in this area. I could easily bump the estimate to 49.92% if I make some assumptions based in the next generations birthplaces.

I still like the Border Reiver theory for your ancestors, but my ancestors stayed in the area and so should have a larger percentage. Plus a lot of Reiver clan names in several lines of my family.

You should definitely have a much larger percentage than I do, and as it stands we basically have the same amount. I only have one recorded 4th GGparent from Edinburgh, the only one in my whole tree who lands in Northumbria. I suspect yours may get a boost and mine will shrink when they sort it out. Still, I won't write off the chance that this could be the category my NI ancestors fit in... I'm assuming they were northern Irish anyhow.. nothing on the censuses except identifying as "Irish" and a couple of them "Scotch"

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-09-2017, 08:40 AM
Devon and Cornwall have sizeable "Danish" input as well in PoBI study which I believe is part of the reason why they are considered closer to the rest of England rather than Wales. For instance, my results displayed just over 10% Cornwall, my father's would likely have much more. I'm descended from this family who are miners and smiths and were engineers during WWII. By surname, it doesn't exactly look insular Celtic, they may have arrived from the east, or even an areas outside England originally.
https://cambornetown.com/about-camborne/our-history/mining-holmans

I wouldn't have expected Danish in Cornwall, but came across the link below. I'm always a bit wary though when articles present some "myth" content as history ( Arthur etc.) "In 807 Viking Danes formed an alliance with the Cornish against the Saxons."
Just a thought and someone correct me if I'm off track or misunderstanding but if there appears to be "Danish" in Cornwall is it maybe standing out because there was less of an Anglo Saxon presence? Is a "Danish" component found in greater concentrations further East which is what you might expect? John
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjAzP2f_8jSAhWqLsAKHavZDbIQFggcMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cornwalls.co.uk%2Fhistory%2Fa ncient&usg=AFQjCNGgfs9ebsr4QE4y9DCMem9h1BNoGA&sig2=Q8R7ghBGP5eFGJxdaiFO7Q

A Norfolk L-M20
03-09-2017, 05:32 PM
I've been reevaluating a lot about my likely medieval ancestry, as I've discussed in the Genealogy section: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9934-Norfolk-Surnames-in-the-Sixteenth-Century&p=218854#post218854 However, the post does conclude with a few thoughts both about my ancestral DNA results (even in Living DNA, which is gaining a reputation for exaggerating British origins, I still receive less "British" than some people of known admixed ancestry), and about some of my sub regional results.

I currently feel that I have underestimated the mobility of rural English previous to my recorded ancestry, between the 14th and 17th centuries. Both moving within a sub region, and sometimes further afield. Although I have no doubts that some of my ancestry has been in Norfolk a very, very long time - I now see the feasibility that some of my medieval ancestors had roots much further afield. That could even include Northern England (I know of Southern England in records), and the Continent, across the North Sea and Channel. Events such as the Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Danish, and Anglo-Norman have impacts - but so does that drip feed of immigration in the background, and clearly, SE England has an admixture connection with the nearby Continent.

My other post refers to a surname study of Norfolk locative surnames from 16th Century records. One of the results was a surprising number of them appear to have originated in Yorkshire, and even NW England. Now when I look at my Living DNA sub regional results, I can't help but wonder, if some of those small percentages, are East Anglian population background from such wanderings:

2.4% North Yorkshire
1.3% South Yorkshire
1.5% NW England

ollie444
03-09-2017, 06:09 PM
Only 1/16 of my ancestry is from Norfolk, so I guess these trace migrations would be even smaller in my results. I am curious if my 2.3% unassigned European could be from this line though - will have the test the old man!

Calas
03-09-2017, 06:21 PM
Perhaps my North Irish ancestors really were ex border reivers? one explanation for it anyhow.

The major explanation for North Irish having Scottish/Lowlands ancestry is the fact a vast majority of migrants to Northern Ireland were Lowlanders. And just for the record not everyone in the Lowlands was a Border Reiver. If anything everyone in the Lowlands, and all the way down to & a bit past York, was a potential Reiver target.

Besides Reivers were in many ways a tight-knit community back in the day. They were also very clan-based. Otherwise, ya know, they wouldn't have been playing "patty cake" in the fields when they were hired as mercenaries to fight. The recounts of Reivers chit-chatting to their Scottish brethern or their English brethern during battle is rather common. There is actually one recount were "Scottish" Reivers would be yapping the heads off their English "enemies" until they were observed & other people [those really fighting their enemies] started saying "what the heck".

I know there's many blogs & what-not trying to claim a vast majority of Reivers went into Ireland. That's a bit of fantasy. Often concocted by people wanting to be "exotic". But as one lawman said Reivers were Scottish when they desired and English when required. The number of Reivers who actually went over is exaggerated.

Judith
03-09-2017, 08:10 PM
I currently feel that I have underestimated the mobility of rural English previous to my recorded ancestry, between the 14th and 17th centuries. Both moving within a sub region, and sometimes further afield. Although I have no doubts that some of my ancestry has been in Norfolk a very, very long time - I now see the feasibility that some of my medieval ancestors had roots much further afield. That could even include Northern England (I know of Southern England in records), and the Continent, across the North Sea and Channel. Events such as the Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Danish, and Anglo-Norman have impacts - but so does that drip feed of immigration in the background, and clearly, SE England has an admixture connection with the nearby Continent.

My other post refers to a surname study of Norfolk locative surnames from 16th Century records. One of the results was a surprising number of them appear to have originated in Yorkshire, and even NW England. Now when I look at my Living DNA sub regional results, I can't help but wonder, if some of those small percentages, are East Anglian population background from such wanderings:

2.4% North Yorkshire
1.3% South Yorkshire
1.5% NW England
Given that you and I share a little aDNA then we either have a common ancestor possibly 500 years ago or it comes from a common ancient population of 1000s years ago.
I would not be surprised if East Anglia had some immigration from across UK. You have featured the proverty of some of your ancestors but East anglia was very rich in the medieval period, just think of all those huge churches! Each church was built by skilled craftsmen whose skills went in families. Did the stonemasons who built Norwich's glorious cathedral come from Yorkshire or elsewhere on the continent? I bet the cathedral records exist still!

deadly77
03-09-2017, 08:12 PM
I don't believe anybody is trying to claim that everybody in the Border regions was part of a reiver clan, or that they vast majority of them went to Ireland - a number of the Reiver clan surnames are very prevalent in the region today.

In a post on one of the other threads, I was offering a potential reason for Skitbo's relatively high levels of Northumbrian/Cumbrian ancestry compared to a lack of Northern Irish percentage compared to his paper trail. Looked at the surnames of his Northern Irish ancestors and saw they didn't match up with the Reiver clan surnames. Didn't discuss it much further than that until my results came in.

Yes, I know about the Reiver primary allegiance to the clan ahead of England or Scotland.

MacUalraig
03-09-2017, 08:38 PM
I don't believe anybody is trying to claim that everybody in the Border regions was part of a reiver clan, or that they vast majority of them went to Ireland - a number of the Reiver clan surnames are very prevalent in the region today.

In a post on one of the other threads, I was offering a potential reason for Skitbo's relatively high levels of Northumbrian/Cumbrian ancestry compared to a lack of Northern Irish percentage compared to his paper trail. Looked at the surnames of his Northern Irish ancestors and saw they didn't match up with the Reiver clan surnames. Didn't discuss it much further than that until my results came in.

Yes, I know about the Reiver primary allegiance to the clan ahead of England or Scotland.

Anyone interested can consult Petty's 'census' of 1659 and look at the surname tallies in Fermanagh to see how many Grahams and Armstrongs had arrived by then - up with all the native Irish names with the exception of Maguire in some areas.

Calas
03-09-2017, 08:51 PM
I don't believe anybody is trying to claim that everybody in the Border regions was part of a reiver clan, or that they vast majority of them went to Ireland - a number of the Reiver clan surnames are very prevalent in the region today.

In a post on one of the other threads, I was offering a potential reason for Skitbo's relatively high levels of Northumbrian/Cumbrian ancestry compared to a lack of Northern Irish percentage compared to his paper trail. Looked at the surnames of his Northern Irish ancestors and saw they didn't match up with the Reiver clan surnames. Didn't discuss it much further than that until my results came in.

Yes, I know about the Reiver primary allegiance to the clan ahead of England or Scotland.


Anyone interested can consult Petty's 'census' of 1659 and look at the surname tallies in Fermanagh to see how many Grahams and Armstrongs had arrived by then - up with all the native Irish names with the exception of Maguire in some areas.


I am clarifying sktibo's assumption. And clarifying for anyone else who thinks Reivers. Having legitimate Reiver ancestry, after all, I do happen to know quite a bit about them. As for Reiver surnames those aren't "Reiver" surnames those are Lowlander surnames. Using surnames like that is really no different than saying a German name is a Jewish name. But the thing is, is like with Jewish/German surnames where there's Jewish families & German families of the same name .... there's Reiver families and then there's just Scottish/English families.

But there are currently 87 versions of Elliot. Are you going to tell me they're all Reivers?

I said Reivers were very clan based. To themselves so surnames aren't really the best way to go. Their loyalities changed like the wind at times. Noted a few times how during Scottish/English dispute Reivers would cater to the winning side and then flip right around and start pandering to the "opponents" if the previously winning side started faltering.



And 1659? I guess the Plantation of Ulster, which would be the real cause of a massive introduction of Lowlander surnames, really didn't start in 1609 (and earlier in some places) despite all documentation saying otherwise.



As for Northumbrian/Cumbrian on Living DNA that happens to take in far more than just Scotland. The genetic overlap in Living DNA is likely going to be in a way comical if you know the areas & the history. But it likely goes up to Edinburgh and down to Midlands given a) their map and b) given the movement throughout the region. I believe I said elsewhere that many Lowlander Scots moved south for work. As for sktibo's "high" results, I personally didn't give them a second thought. This is why researching areas, and not just your family tree, can possibly explain those "odd" things. Particularly in areas like the Midlands & Yorkshire which has seen quite a bit of movement since the Industrial Revolution.

There is also the fact that it appears skitbo doesn't know their ancestry fully. They mention 8 Irish ancestors who are assumed to be Northerners. They then mention elsewhere 6 Irish, 4 N. Irish/SW Scottish, etc. There is actually a number of reasons why high Northumbria/Cumbria. The least of which could also tie with their metis ancestry depending on how Living DNA is reading Scottish DNA versus English DNA.

avalon
03-09-2017, 09:53 PM
I wouldn't have expected Danish in Cornwall, but came across the link below. I'm always a bit wary though when articles present some "myth" content as history ( Arthur etc.) "In 807 Viking Danes formed an alliance with the Cornish against the Saxons."
Just a thought and someone correct me if I'm off track or misunderstanding but if there appears to be "Danish" in Cornwall is it maybe standing out because there was less of an Anglo Saxon presence? Is a "Danish" component found in greater concentrations further East which is what you might expect? John
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjAzP2f_8jSAhWqLsAKHavZDbIQFggcMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cornwalls.co.uk%2Fhistory%2Fa ncient&usg=AFQjCNGgfs9ebsr4QE4y9DCMem9h1BNoGA&sig2=Q8R7ghBGP5eFGJxdaiFO7Q

The problem is, the Danish and the Anglo Saxons were likely very similar genetically as they both had north germanic origins. POBI weren't able to distinguish between them. And to complicate matters further, the Normans also had similar origins but were probably more admixed with northern french who themselves had germanic ancestry from the Franks.

Unravelling all this from modern dna is a minefield!