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MitchellSince1893
02-04-2017, 08:24 PM
Just wondering if there is any interest in adopting a badge, or shield logo etc for our haplogroup.

I have an interest in Heraldry and graphic design and would be happy to facilitate an effort if there is interest (although I may live to regret opening this can of worms :P ).

This idea came to me today after I saw a gentlemen on the facebook U152 page using my current anthrogencia avatar (the red and gold shield with the celtic triskelion and the Northern Italo rosa camuna symbol design). He may have thought it was something "official" to represent U152. I wasn't offended, but took it as a compliment that he liked my design.

Anyway, that got me to thinking maybe there is interest in a U152 shield/badge design.

I realize getting any sort of universal consensus on a design will be next to impossible, but if there was a design idea that most agreed upon, then maybe we could go forward.

IF there is interest and IF we ever get to the point of an agreed upon design, would we want options on identifying subclades of U152 design?

Some possibilities:

1. There is only one haplogroup design, and all sub-clades/branches are identified with a name/identifier. This idea would be easy to change as new discoveries are made and the tree gets rearranged, and wouldn't effect the basic design. But it would require that the design be applicable to the whole of the haplogroup e.g. not exclusively Celtic, Italic, or whatever (as illustrated in top row of image below).

2. The branches directly below the haplogroup would have some change/addition to the haplogroup design. For example. Different colors, or a border around the basic design. Potential problem with this idea is if SNPs/Indels in between the main haplgroup and a branch are later identified (as illustrated in row 2 and 3 below).

3. The branches include symbols that represent the cultures they are part of. E.g. vast majority found in present day Italy, Spain, Netherlands etc.

The image below is just to illustrate the concepts above and not as actual design suggestion (they're too ugly for that :D )

13792

We may want to include symbol(s) to represent a culture/tribe associated with the haplgroup or subclade. E.g. symbol(s) for Bell Beaker, Urnfield, Celtic, Hallstaat, La Tene, Belgic, Gaulish, Lepontic, Lombardic, Iceni, Roman, etc cultures/tribes.

Just to reiterate, I do not presume to have any authority to make this happen. I'm just seeing if there is any interest in pursuing it further.

Maybe the starting point is coming up with agreed upon guidelines in the design that other haplogroups would want to adopt.

MitchellSince1893
02-05-2017, 06:23 PM
Once the big ancient dna study is released we will hopefully have more to work with, but we already know that U152 was associated with Bell Beaker.

A common theme in the Bell Beaker pottery is the Zigzag design which in heraldry is called an "indented" line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_(heraldry)

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XYjUsMMTFgM/WFgyoDzZ7mI/AAAAAAAAT10/Yi4h78qq_9UYrtYr2qG6VzJmV-ZtLIglwCPcB/s1600/Capture.JPG
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-q6JuxAxS19o/VO0jXI2Iz2I/AAAAAAAAFGE/HAczreJCS2k/s1600/0510_t8157_maxi.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-E7Xmo4zTx6Y/U6ndJ4IWomI/AAAAAAAAAiI/Ko02bHunFnw/s1600/pasted+beaker.JPG
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/83/74/b7/8374b79daa17faaf1135235c03e9acb6.jpg



So an idea would be to incorporate a symbol(s) related to Bell Beaker (and other pertinent cultures) into the badge/shield
13797

MitchellSince1893
02-05-2017, 06:32 PM
Another possible U152 related culture (on at least some subclades) is the Urnfield Culture which often has a similar design in armor, helmets, bowls etc.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/56/aa/98/56aa986ffbef73a8191bf8259cd13b51.jpg
https://acastprod.blob.core.windows.net/media/v1/5f705706-8d47-4986-a455-63b1c7db1905/urnfield.jpg
http://i1.ifrm.com/2279/116/upload/p6769080.jpg
http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/b75a70ac98434668b9325330c41eef87/a-central-european-bronze-kettle-and-eleven-drinking-bowls-transition-brgg02.jpg


Again this type of pattern (or some other) might be incorporated into a design for subclades related to Urnfield such as a heraldic bordure bezanty (bezant is the heraldic term for circle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezant


https://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/sites/default/files/styles/medium/public/bordure%20bezanty.jpg?itok=vqHL1Ael

Or a bend bezanty
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7IkbUWdLm2xiC386Ig2a1yJY9mT0tg DIY2mfbfYP2Ta2nT1CZ

Or many other ways in which an Urnfield connection to certain U152 subclades could be used.

One idea might be a basic U152 design with a Bezant bordure for subclades with a Urnfield connection.

Ravai
02-06-2017, 07:50 AM
Hi MitchellSince1893, I think it's a brilliant idea, it can even be fun. Jesko Stampa and I agreed on the same SNP Terminal, we are both hanging from the haplogroup (R-P312 / S116> Z40481> ZZ11> U152 / S28> L2 / S139> Z41150> BY4245). My most distant ancestors are from 1609 (birth of my ninth grandfather), although it is for other notarial documents that in the sixteenth century lived in Casanova Lerrone (today in Savona, Italy).

Jesko Stampa has his furthest ancestor in Prussia, although he is known to be a foreigner of that land, and is suspected to have been born about 1720, probably somewhere between the Italian-Swiss Alps (Gravedona, Stampa) and perhaps in the present Czech Republic Or Poland, but whose ancestors may have come from Gravedona (On Lake Como). We're trying to find his birth certificate, but it's complicated.

We also have over-the-top kits that were born outside the current borders of Italy (in Wales, England, Ireland, Lebanon, the latter think we could get there with the Crusades, have information from their ancestors since the time of the Crusades , Although I have to say, that in this case, I have not seen the documentation.)

Regards

A.Morup
02-06-2017, 09:01 AM
I like the idea of a logo that shows our haplogroup, but in a world which seems more and more obsessed with the things that divide us and less and less with science, I think that a flag or a shield is going in the wrong direction.
My suggestion would be to go with something more DNA-like and with the text "R-U152" instead (and no submarines!) ;)

Funny coincidence - we are going to climb mountains in the Austrian and Bavarian Alps this summer and my wife insisted that we visited Halstatt on the way, as it is a very lovely place. I don't know why, but it was only last week, long after the hotels were booked, that I realised why the word "Halstatt" rang a bell! And now, I was even considering to order a custom made T-shirt with the words "R-U152" and see if I got any reactions on the street there :)

Anyway, if you can agree on a logo, please put it up for sale on Cafepress (http://www.cafepress.co.uk) so we can order T-shirts, mugs, mousemats etc...

Kind regards
Anders

MitchellSince1893
02-16-2017, 08:43 PM
Like the Nordic flag design used by many countries and regions that share a common identity, one idea would be to have a basic design that would vary by colors to show different branches.
14095

Monochromatically the designs would all look the same. Members of branches could decide on their own colors as long as it wasn't the same as another already established branch.

CelticGerman
02-16-2017, 09:02 PM
Good idea

R.Rocca
02-16-2017, 09:15 PM
Excellent idea. I always thought that it might be nice to have some snow capped peak in there somewhere, given the strength of U152 all around the Alps.

FYI... Marco Foppoli from northern Italy, who is a U152+Z36+ member of the U152 project, is a professional heraldic artist. His work is stunning. You may want to reach out to him.

R.Rocca
02-16-2017, 09:19 PM
Actually, here is some of his work... http://www.marcofoppoli.com/

MitchellSince1893
02-16-2017, 11:40 PM
Excellent idea. I always thought that it might be nice to have some snow capped peak in there somewhere, given the strength of U152 all around the Alps.

FYI... Marco Foppoli from northern Italy, who is a U152+Z36+ member of the U152 project, is a professional heraldic artist. His work is stunning. You may want to reach out to him.

You could possibly combine snow cap peaks design with a beaker style zigzag as seen in my post 2 above.

I will reach out to Marco.
Edit. Email sent inviting him to join the discussion here.

MitchellSince1893
02-17-2017, 12:22 AM
How mountains are simply displayed in some heraldic designs.

http://www.inlandregion.org/heraldry/baronies/three_mtns.gif
http://rollofarms.antirheralds.org/arms/FrozenMountain.gif
http://blog.learnslovenianonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Slovenia_Coat_of_Arms.png
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/witcher/images/c/c0/Hrb_unof_Mag_Turga.png/revision/latest?cb=20090822205652
http://alonatwotrees.com/amtgardclipartproject/kingdomheraldry/ironmountainsheraldry.png
http://www.flagshag.com/smaller/europecoats/Macedonia_Coat_of_Arms.jpg

MitchellSince1893
02-17-2017, 05:04 AM
Other common symbols for the Alps is the edweisse flower. It is found in a number of alpine heraldic shields
http://mistholme.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/edelweiss.jpg

And the Alpine Ibex aka steinbock
14099

Ravai
02-17-2017, 12:52 PM
In Eupedia they have updated the U152 tree. Maybe it can serve for the creation of the shields.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

Regards

David

MitchellSince1893
02-17-2017, 01:17 PM
Got an email response from Marco Foppoli. He said it was ok to share it with the group. He may join the discussion after he registers on anthrogenica.


Dear Mark,

Thanks for your email and very glad to meet you following the tracks of our U152 ancient common origin :-)

Well, yes I am a professional graphic designer and professional heraldic artist. I have read the thread with all interesting ideas and thoughts. For personal reasons I am an expert of heraldry of the Alpine countries. I am originating from the Valtellina/Veltlin the Alpine valley today in Lombardy but until 18th C. part of Switzerland as part of the "Three Gray Leagues State", Grisons of today, and I am Beisitzer - council member - of the Schweizerische Heraldische Gesellschaft. Actually I live in Brescia on the Lombard plan, a city between Milano and Verona.

I like your idea to have a simple shield as arms of the U152 group of course as an "heraldic logo". I absolutely like your suggestions to transform graphic patterns of the old pots as an "heraldic pattern"; that's sounds good, that's can design an arms "modern" and old at the same time. I see a combination with an "heraldic skyline between" mountain/Alps, as an heraldic "Indented" line of partition. A good idea to work on.

I see I am unable to see many time the thread; how I can register me in the group? Let me know.

I add here a picture of the "Stele di Bormio" (IV century BC) found in Bormio Valtellina the Alpine valley of which I am originary. The stele shows two alpine Celts warriors. I think it's very interesting for so many details of two warriors. The ancient and scenical town of Bormio is near Engadin (Sudbunden, CH) and Vintschgau/Valvenosta (Südtirol). I hope you enjoy. As you can see two shields have graphic pattern that sounds a little like the pots' pattern.


Well I think could be a good start for now. Feel free to bring my words in the thread if you think useful.


Regards,

Marco


Image he sent referenced above.
14105

MitchellSince1893
02-21-2017, 06:32 AM
Capturing some of the previous thoughts on:

1. a simple design e.g. Nordic flag design that can show subclades sharing a common identity via color changes
2. Incorporating the Alps possibly with an indented line
3. Incorporating ancient culture(s) where ancient U152 dna has been proven to be a part of. (indented line could also represent Bell Beaker as it's often found on beaker pottery)
4. Tying back into the science of what the design represents i.e. Y-DNA

I came up with this design (two of them both in black and white) which is good at illustrating the benefits of starting out with a simple design to build upon if we decide to show subclades several levels down.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d8/db/5b/d8db5bf8d9c86f2715fe63624c1ab36b.png


The "Pall" is a Y shaped heraldic charge. It may be a good choice to show that this design is representing a Y-DNA branch.
The Indented line at the top represent that this y-dna line is found near the Alps. In fact sometimes U152 has been referred to the "Alpine" Y-dna haplogroup.

The following images illustrate how this design could be used by changing colors (tinctures) to represent the different U152 subclades. As to what colors were chosen to represent which subclades, I simply assigned the most popular colors in heraldry and flags to the most numerous subclades in the U152 project.

Most common colors/tinctures/metals are:
1. Red (gules, tincture)
2. White (argent, metal)
3. Yellow/Gold (or, metal)
4. Blue (azul tincture)
4. Black (sable, tincture)
5. Green (Vert, tincture)

Other less common heraldic colors/tinctures followed, such as purple and orange.
The remaining colors were shades of the first 5 tinctures above. i.e. a dark red, light blue, gray, light green, light violet, brown/copper

I actually looked at flags where U152 was found to see if I could assign a color to what would make sense from a geographic perspective, but all subclades were located where there were plenty of red and white flags, so assigning the highest frequency colors to the most numerous subclades, and working down, seemed to be a good option at coming up with an assignment system.

U152 subclades
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/7b/7b/9d/7b7b9d3a392907072487318bf165e4c9.png
So for example, L2 is the most common U152 subclade, and red and white are the most common colors. With ZZ45 and red and gold being the 2nd most common and so on.

L2 subclades
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a8/2a/b7/a82ab7a66374d4a115b28511d7fbb203.png
The colors are just repeated in the top area above the alps (indented line) with most popular colors again being assigned to the most numerous subclades in the U152 project.

And you can keep on repeating the process making the design just a little more complex as you step through the subclades.
.
ZZ41150 subclades with color of area below the idented line changed for each subclade following the same color order
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1c/02/44/1c0244314b50f28f176df4437e371f2c.png

Z49 (subclade of ZZ44150) subclades get a colored border
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/92/1e/0d/921e0db88501b311c695b9e6dfa8e98e.png

Z142 (subclade of Z49) subclades get a border modification...again following the same color order
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/74/af/3c/74af3c2df3286d71d72265f3dbee60f0.png

I stopped at Z150 (subclade of Z142), which added an additional border change, but there was no reason one has to stop here, it could keep going, getting increasingly complex at each level.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d9/ee/02/d9ee021dca688394b51b68c78851fd66.png

Ravai
02-21-2017, 01:28 PM
BY425 is a mistake? You mean BY4245?

Great job!

Thanks

MitchellSince1893
02-21-2017, 01:43 PM
BY425 is a mistake? You mean BY4245?

Great job!

Thanks

Yes it's supposed to be BY4245. Good catch. I went back and fixed it in my post above. The numbers below some of the subclades are just the current number found in the U152 project, which as mentioned, was used to assign color order.

If such a system were adopted, one could pick a date in the future to assign colors e.g. the date that the U152 project crosses the 2000 mark, or father's day, or DNA Day (25 April), or some other date.

MitchellSince1893
02-25-2017, 09:42 PM
Any more feedback on this general proposal in post 15 above?

Close to the mark? Way off the mark?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e5/dc/f1/e5dcf185cd64a93c6f7aab9f15fdc900.png

R.Rocca
02-27-2017, 01:52 AM
Hello Mark,

Even though the Y theme has solid logic and looks good, if we consider that all halpogroups could have shields at some point, it would make the "Y" design very redundant.

Aside from the mountain peaks, I always thought a horse (or horse head) would be nice to see on a U152 shield, especially since U152 was likely born and spread by Central and Western Europe's first horse riders. If not on the shield itself, then possible to the left and right and maybe even above the shield. I'm sure Marco could give examples, but here is one...

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/heraldic-design-shield-winged-horse-lion-vector-illustration-vintage-style-crown-36864945.jpg

Also, the bow and arrow seems to have been the preferred weapon of choice for the Bell Beaker people, so something similar to this...

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YklIDYPIeJc/V09Hav-CUhI/AAAAAAAAAQs/8prrLVldIkcP5VcyRGsCXX1ZFfDnZ0NkwCLcB/s1600/Ragnar%2BThorbergsson%2BHeraldry.png

MitchellSince1893
02-27-2017, 04:11 AM
Hello Mark,

Even though the Y theme has solid logic and looks good, if we consider that all halpogroups could have shields at some point, it would make the "Y" design very redundant.

Aside from the mountain peaks, I always thought a horse (or horse head) would be nice to see on a U152 shield, especially since U152 was likely born and spread by Central and Western Europe's first horse riders. If not on the shield itself, then possible to the left and right and maybe even above the shield. I'm sure Marco could give examples, but here is one...

Also, the bow and arrow seems to have been the preferred weapon of choice for the Bell Beaker people, so something similar to this...


Thank you for your feedback Richard. Yes I could see how the Y shape could become redundant if other haplogroups followed suit.

So alps, bow/arrow and/or horse?

Rough idea based on the above (colors just chosen to be natural, but they could be any combination)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bc/05/61/bc05619d94087681ebe2e2f63693353e.png

Black and white version

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/41/c7/db/41c7db55ca64cd35f0ecc5ba0add540f.png

MitchellSince1893
02-27-2017, 04:26 AM
Another take on the same idea

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ad/a1/21/ada121001b9015ee028718df5f15fb2c.png

R.Rocca
02-27-2017, 12:36 PM
Thank you for your feedback Richard. Yes I could see how the Y shape could become redundant if other haplogroups followed suit.

So alps, bow/arrow and/or horse?

Rough idea based on the above (colors just chosen to be natural, but they could be any combination)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bc/05/61/bc05619d94087681ebe2e2f63693353e.png

Black and white version

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/41/c7/db/41c7db55ca64cd35f0ecc5ba0add540f.png

I like these... a lot!

MitchellSince1893
02-27-2017, 12:42 PM
I like these... a lot!

did you see this version? http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9677-Any-interest-in-a-Haplogroup-and-or-Subclade-Badge-Shield-Design&p=216518&viewfull=1#post216518

EDIT: Or maybe something more like this from an ancient coin

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-odyQsNJJGQQ/VZvbCyLKaEI/AAAAAAAAIgg/jF2CRZQ7biM/s1600/ironage_coin_DavidNashFord.gif

Ravai
02-27-2017, 12:57 PM
Hello, I am not an expert on heraldry, but I think it would be a good idea if the main image was a representation of the place of origin of the main haplogroup, for example the Alps for U152. Then to the left a representation of the Culture, as indicated by Richard, the horses, the bow and the arrow, and the right a characteristic of the subclass. And down the name of the subclass and even the age of the latter? The colors I think could bring you the elements of the images that are added, the colors that nature gives to each of the elements represented.

Well, the place of the images where it can be more beautiful, up, down, left, right, center ...

What is your opinion?

Regards

MitchellSince1893
02-27-2017, 02:55 PM
Hello, I am not an expert on heraldry, but I think it would be a good idea if the main image was a representation of the place of origin of the main haplogroup, for example the Alps for U152. Then to the left a representation of the Culture, as indicated by Richard, the horses, the bow and the arrow, and the right a characteristic of the subclass. And down the name of the subclass and even the age of the latter? The colors I think could bring you the elements of the images that are added, the colors that nature gives to each of the elements represented.

Well, the place of the images where it can be more beautiful, up, down, left, right, center ...

What is your opinion?

Regards
I would avoid dates as they are a moving target. Also I would recommend as a general rule keeping alphanumerics outside the shield. One idea is to put subclade names above or below as seen on my avatar.

As far a cultural symbols representing subclades, one has to keep in mind that new discoveries are constantly being made. For example what if a subclade is currently thought to be La Tene or Hallstatt origin, and later it is learned that it is mostly of Italo or Iberian origin with a few outlier Celts? The Celtic symbology would then seem out of place as the majority might be of non Celtic origin.

An idea might be to use a border with a cultural design in it. Thus not affecting the basic design as new information is learned.

MitchellSince1893
02-28-2017, 01:14 AM
Other variants with silhouette style horses

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3c/af/b0/3cafb0aa248b537bd948f427fad438d6.png

JMcB
02-28-2017, 03:33 AM
Other variants with silhouette style horses

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3c/af/b0/3cafb0aa248b537bd948f427fad438d6.png

All very nice.

Of course, this is just my opinion but I think the one on the bottom right is the nicest.

Romilius
02-28-2017, 12:59 PM
All very nice.

Of course, this is just my opinion but I think the one on the bottom right is the nicest.

I think that's more heraldicly correct the first on the right: a horse salient is a well established heraldic figure.

I was thinking about the possibility to have a shield crossed, then with four quarters to fill with heraldic figures: in the first an heraldic mount, in the second the bow and arrow, in the third a horse salient, in the fourth I don't know.

MitchellSince1893
03-07-2017, 02:24 AM
One idea is you build "U152" into the design via how it's laid out.

For example

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b0/5d/b9/b05db939c545fe13e2beaf51a1db72e8.png

Or two arrows version

Ravai
03-07-2017, 09:18 AM
I like the two arrows :D

MitchellSince1893
04-17-2017, 10:59 PM
I haven't forgotten about this project, but we are kind of in a holding pattern until the Big Bell Beaker Behemoth Paper comes out.

There is a good chance U152 was involved in copper mining/metal working, so if proven we might want to include something related to this.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ce/6f/cd/ce6fcd3a42edde30da704d7df934a2d7.png

MitchellSince1893
05-13-2017, 06:01 PM
Well the new studies are in. All U152 samples so far are Bell Beaker (BB ), but unfortunately they were all U152>L2 subclade.

However, the RISE563 BB sample has now been identified as the oldest known U152 sample at 2572–2512 BCE. I don't believe any subclades were identified in this sample so this may be an indication the earliest U152 was indeed Bell Beaker

Hopefully once the samples are publicly available some of the P312 samples may be identified as other subclades of U152.

Here are the items found in the ancient U152 graves from the Olalde study

-Two incomplete Bell Beakers vessels, a copper dagger, a wrist-guard, few lithic tools and ornaments.
-A Bell Beaker, an urn, a bowl, and a jug, arrowhead, and two stone tools
-Bone pin, 5 decorated bow-shaped bone pendants, 2 fragmented boar’s tusks and 11 flints
-Broad metope-decorated beaker, 10 V-formed perforated bone buttons and 3 flints
-Arrowhead and several pieces of flint

If it turns out BB is a U152 wide characteristic then the Bell Beaker shape might be incorporated into the design.

15951

Again with symbolism for U152 in the form of a "U" shape "1" Horse, "5" peaks, "2" arrows.

Ravai
05-14-2017, 08:12 AM
Hello MitchellSince1893,

Current studies suggest that U152 was born in Bavaria, and is not the Alps. It is right? If so, it would be pointless to place the alps on the shield, except, perhaps, for some subclasses downstream of L2. What do you think?

Regards

razyn
05-14-2017, 09:17 AM
If it turns out BB is a U152 wide characteristic then the Bell Beaker shape might be incorporated into the design.

15951

Again with symbolism for U152 in the form of a "U" shape "1" Horse, "5" peaks, "2" arrows.

I like the subtlety of your tweak for a Bell Beaker shape. (Maybe a similar white shape, inverted, to flatten the beaker's base?) I'm not sure U152 deserves it more than anybody else, below P312; and trying to incorporate an alphanumerical lab designation in heraldry just seems quirky. But probably I'm just jealous, there are way more U shapes in nature than DF shapes, or FGC shapes. Hmm, lightning could work for ZZ11.

R.Rocca
05-14-2017, 01:27 PM
Well the new studies are in. All U152 samples so far are Bell Beaker (BB ), but unfortunately they were all U152>L2 subclade.

However, the RISE563 BB sample has now been identified as the oldest known U152 sample at 2572–2512 BCE. I don't believe any subclades were identified in this sample so this may be an indication the earliest U152 was indeed Bell Beaker

Hopefully once the samples are publicly available some of the P312 samples may be identified as other subclades of U152.

Here are the items found in the ancient U152 graves from the Olalde study

-Two incomplete Bell Beakers vessels, a copper dagger, a wrist-guard, few lithic tools and ornaments.
-A Bell Beaker, an urn, a bowl, and a jug, arrowhead, and two stone tools
-Bone pin, 5 decorated bow-shaped bone pendants, 2 fragmented boar’s tusks and 11 flints
-Broad metope-decorated beaker, 10 V-formed perforated bone buttons and 3 flints
-Arrowhead and several pieces of flint

If it turns out BB is a U152 wide characteristic then the Bell Beaker shape might be incorporated into the design.

15951

Again with symbolism for U152 in the form of a "U" shape "1" Horse, "5" peaks, "2" arrows.

I think this is "the one" and is production ready. :D

MitchellSince1893
05-14-2017, 04:03 PM
Hello MitchellSince1893,

Current studies suggest that U152 was born in Bavaria, and is not the Alps. It is right? If so, it would be pointless to place the alps on the shield, except, perhaps, for some subclasses downstream of L2. What do you think?

Regards

It has two meaning. Remember it is a design found on Bell Beakers. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9677-Any-interest-in-a-Haplogroup-and-or-Subclade-Badge-Shield-Design&p=212324&viewfull=1#post212324

Regardless of where U152 started is not meant to imply origin but rather the high percentage of U152 found all around the Alps today. See posts #8 and 10.

We are probably never going to find the actual origin of U152 but the currently oldest known U1152 at the Osterhofen-Altenmarkt bell beaker grave, is only 60 miles /100 km from the Alpine region. And if you draw a line from here to the next oldest known site (going by mid point of the date ranges) at Villard, France then it goes right through the Alps.

If it helps we at least know the Alps were part of some U152 men's life going back to ~2300 BC. But if it still bothers folks, then just think of it as a common design on Beaker pottery.


...I'm not sure U152 deserves it more than anybody else, below P312...
Not implying U152 has a monopoly on Bell Beaker, but it is undeniable part of early U152's life.

MitchellSince1893
05-14-2017, 04:17 PM
...Maybe a similar white shape, inverted, to flatten the beaker's base

Great idea. Something like this

16004

Ravai
05-14-2017, 07:20 PM
Thank you. I think it would look better if the "U" has a different color than the bell beaker.

Regards

Ravai
05-14-2017, 07:24 PM
Can you try placing the four elements in the previous design? The horse and arrows up, the Alps and below the bell beaker.

Thanks you

MitchellSince1893
05-14-2017, 07:41 PM
Thank you. I think it would look better if the "U" has a different color than the bell beaker.

Regards On the colors, I think it's best to keep U152 as monochromatic, but if it's decided to use different colors to show different subclades, then the U could be a different color as you got a few levels down. I can give you an example later.


Can you try placing the four elements in the previous design? The horse and arrows up, the Alps and below the bell beaker.

Thanks you
If you moved the order around then you would change the number order U125

Ravai
05-14-2017, 08:02 PM
This is an example of what he meant. You could place the subclass in the Bell Beaker, for example.

16018

Regards

Ravai
05-14-2017, 08:21 PM
The arrows fly overhead, the horse runs through the steppe under the mountains: D.

16020

Ravai
05-14-2017, 08:31 PM
The arrows fly overhead, the horse runs through the steppe under the mountains: D.

MitchellSince1893
05-14-2017, 10:54 PM
The arrows fly overhead, the horse runs through the steppe under the mountains: D.

16033

Ravai
05-15-2017, 07:27 AM
16033

Great! I love!

:D

MitchellSince1893
05-17-2017, 09:27 PM
Like the Nordic flag design used by many countries and regions that share a common identity, one idea would be to have a basic design that would vary by colors to show different branches.
14095

Mono-chromatically the designs would all look the same

Now that we have a design, black is a good color for U152 as a whole because black is the color you get when all colors are added together.

The most apolitical/unemotional way I can think to do it (to avoid a combination of colors for a subclade being associated with a certain national colors) is to assign them based on what is most common.

In national flags these are the most common colors
Color : Percent of flags that have that color:
Red 77.08%
White 72.92%
Blue 53.13%
Yellow/Gold 46.3%
Green 45.31%
Black 30.73%
Orange 4.69%
Brown 4.69%
Gray 3.13%
Purple 1.04%

So for assignment purposes using the color order found in flags above:

Most common U152 subclade would be: red and white
2nd most common: Blue and white
3rd most common: Gold and white
4th most common: Green and white
5th most common: Red and Gold
6th most common: Blue and Gold
7th most common: Green and Gold
8th most common: Black and Gold
9th most common: Orange and White
10th most common: Brown and White
11th most common: Gray and White
12th most common: Purple and White
13th most common: Orange and Gold
14th most common: Brown and Gold
15th most common: Gray and Gold
16th most common: Purple and Gold

You could repeat the process for 2 to 4 levels down as shown in the image below...or just stop at the level below U152.

If such a system was adopted, then an arbitrary date would be selected to set the colors based on the U152 project numbers. E.g. Father's day 2017, or the date the U152 project crosses the 2000 member mark.

The above random color assignment process is just meant to remove any emotion/desires from the process. e.g. a Greek U152 L2 guy wants Blue and White, a Swiss L2 guy wants red and white, a Spanish L2 fellow wants red and gold, a Swedish L2 guy wants blue and gold etc . By making assignments based on most common subclades get the most common colors removes any association with a certain country's colors.https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e6/8c/c8/e68cc8bfca66f3499daff28065a7921e.png

OR

If there is no interest in the above hierarchical approach, we just stick to a single U152 design. If the latter then we could look at other color combos for U152. e.g natural colors: blue sky, white mountains, green field.

CelticGerman
05-17-2017, 09:33 PM
I hope the U152 origin will be in the Black Forest region in this case.

Osiris
05-17-2017, 10:54 PM
Very nice. Only problem is if they discover a SNP between L2 and U152 just like with the long name haplogroups. Maybe we have the U152 version and rather than for every subclade (my most recent subclade is ~200 years old) we shoot for a specific age for the SNPs. Maybe 500 BC, just before the Roman Republic? Seems like that would dramatically reduce the number of color combinations you'd have to create from many hundreds to many dozens?

Or would we have to go further back? I wonder how many branches of U152 were alive by 500 BC and still have living descendants today?

MitchellSince1893
05-17-2017, 11:57 PM
...OR

If there is no interest in the above hierarchical approach, we just stick to a single U152 design. If the latter then we could look at other color combos for U152. e.g natural colors: blue sky, white mountains, green field.

Natural colors
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/96/38/fe/9638fe2eed0390368e2a3420b3ad3cee.png https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4f/99/71/4f9971e4c25d486957518ca8592d3820.png

Or if the goal is to have all the colors in found in most flags...
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f8/bd/5f/f8bd5f6dbb9ff1dd2ff08694b947cb29.pnghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3d/a4/65/3da465c66840aed16478d5d3aa7906fa.png

MitchellSince1893
05-26-2017, 03:48 PM
The FTDNA U152 Project Badge has be finalized. I would like to thank all of those that took the time to make inputs, suggestions, and other feedback.
Description.

The design incorporates the Bell Beaker shape, as ancient U152 burials often include various artifacts from the Bell Beaker culture.

The indented (zig-zag) center band represents the white Alps where U152 is currently very prominent; and the fact that U152 has been located in/near the Alpine region since at least ~2300 BC. The zig-zag design also represents the pattern often found on Bell Beaker pottery.

The arrows represent the role archery played in Bell Beaker culture. Arrows and arrow heads, along with archer arm bracers are often found in U152 graves. The introduction and use of the horse was also a feature of the Bell Beaker culture.

The colors were chosen to represent colors found in nature. Blue skies, snow-capped Alps, green fields. To illustrate the international aspect of U152, other colors were added to include those found in almost any national flag.

Finally, the "U" shaped border, 1 horse, 5 mountain peaks and 2 arrows; are designed to symbolize "U152".

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152/about

Color and monochromatic versions
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/7f/cb/d8/7fcbd8e7ce491db4b6301d064a449872.pnghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/24/68/52/246852340cf55935a1e58b2f3b15b779.png

JMcB
05-26-2017, 05:44 PM
The FTDNA U152 Project Badge has be finalized. I would like to thank all of those that took the time to make inputs, suggestions, and other feedback.
Description.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152/about

Color and monochromatic versions
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/7f/cb/d8/7fcbd8e7ce491db4b6301d064a449872.pnghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/24/68/52/246852340cf55935a1e58b2f3b15b779.png

Very nice!

I like your final choice best of all.

MitchellSince1893
09-03-2017, 10:55 PM
In case anyone is interested in showing their national and haplogroup pride, I created some images of the U152 logo with various national flags. If there was a member in the FTDNA U152 project from an Old World country I created logo for that country. https://www.pinterest.com/afblue010104/u152-logos/

Some of the more popular ones based on U152 project membership
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/16/86/ad/1686ad4f53ab1ec0eb62ccb93aac7ccd.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/3b/21/72/3b2172a6f0421ba81d69b8b0b56ce952.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/fe/44/9ffe44256a3047b911a8e689c8bfba3c.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/89/16/f9/8916f91b29b26714cbb098df46234206.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/d2/63/30d263f0f51163ffd05143e49364b778.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/53/20/f4/5320f451fa0ad2e0c875d6f00563a54c.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/60/32/b9/6032b99ecb8fcc8040d9a21ddc914420.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/19/71/19/1971195dca9b34696d3b4f25a7d1d247.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/9e/fd/6f/9efd6f65a5e5702c088b547f8ca55a81.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/6f/87/e46f8710e814b5e8e7852f971d442fd1.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/76/7c/28767ccb80944b1cff2dfd7f157f1e36.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/e9/01/02e9015e73a639bced060c921e6b19c8.png

A.Morup
02-19-2019, 08:49 AM
Hi MitchelSince1893!

Could you contact me regarding a logo for my R-U152 > BY3604 page (http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/)
Your Anthrogenica inbox is full, so I can only reach out to you in this way...

Best regards
Anders from Denmark

MitchellSince1893
02-19-2019, 01:52 PM
Hi MitchelSince1893!

Could you contact me regarding a logo for my R-U152 > BY3604 page (http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/)
Your Anthrogenica inbox is full, so I can only reach out to you in this way...

Best regards
Anders from Denmark

Hi, I emptied my inbox.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/c3/72/f3c372fb0e1f8a47cb0f0d3dfc3704b8.png

Others here https://www.pinterest.com/afblue010104/u152-logos/

A.Morup
02-24-2019, 09:22 PM
Thanks :-)

Best regards
Anders