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ba97200
02-05-2017, 08:31 AM
What do you make of the I-A2512 rare branch of the I-CTS10228 Dinaric haplogroup?

So far from ftdna bigY tests it seems that we have a movement from the Carpathians to Greece about 2000 years ago and about 1000 years later a backmigration of a Jewish subcluster of A-2512 back to the area around Poland-Ukraine (perhaps because of the Crusades)!

13794

Aspar
02-06-2020, 12:09 PM
It's an interesting subclade and recently there are some major developments going on here...

Recently in our Macedonian project (https://gap.familytreedna.com/ydna-results-classic.aspx) we got our first I-A2512*. He comes from the Western part of North Macedonia and has no knowledge of any foreign ancestry. He identifies as an ethnic Macedonian. His BIG-Y-700 is still in process but he already have got his str-111 markers and he is already confirmed as a I-A2512* by FTDNA. Looking at 'I2a DNA Project' results there is already a I-A2512* in Northern Greece and one of them is from Thasos while the other one with kit number 887728 didn't display information about where in Greece he comes from.

Looking at the Block Tree, there are 5 Greeks I-A2512 confirmed along with our new member and a guy from Poland. I couldn't find informations about this guy from Poland though. I know there is a major Jewish subclade down the I-A2512 branch but this guy from Poland is confirmed as I-A2512 positive only.

There is also a branch down the I-Y18331 subclade known on YFULL asI-Y158862 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y158862/). So far, there are two Greeks from Macedonia here along with an ethnic Russian and an Ukrainian and the TMRCA according to YFULL is only 1150 ybp.

Still though, this branch I-Y18331 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/) is most diverse in Greece.

There are a lot of mysteries around this subclade and would be interesting to see the future developments here.

artemv
02-11-2020, 08:12 PM
Very interresting, thank you. History of Y18331 branch is very interesting for me personally.
Anyway, I think that this North Macedonian does not change much. I guess his Y-chromosome is of Greek origin.

I have an idea, that Y18331 branch might be somehow connected to Greek colonies in the North Black see. We know, that they have accepted some local ("barbarians") into their society. That was the way for Y18331 to enter Greek community.
Later, at different times, groups of Y18331 people migrated from Greek colonies to the mainland, while other groups stayed in those colonies, before Kievan Rus got control over that area.
I-A10959 likely migrated to the mainland Greece even before CE, while I-A7134 likely migrated later.

No doubt, this is just my idea and in no way a proven fact. But given what we know now about history and about Y18331 sub-branches this is likely the best way to explain.

Greekscholar
02-11-2020, 09:04 PM
It's an interesting subclade and recently there are some major developments going on here...

Recently in our Macedonian project (https://gap.familytreedna.com/ydna-results-classic.aspx) we got our first I-A2512*. He comes from the Western part of North Macedonia and has no knowledge of any foreign ancestry. He identifies as an ethnic Macedonian. His BIG-Y-700 is still in process but he already have got his str-111 markers and he is already confirmed as a I-A2512* by FTDNA. Looking at 'I2a DNA Project' results there is already a I-A2512* in Northern Greece and one of them is from Thasos while the other one with kit number 887728 didn't display information about where in Greece he comes from.

Looking at the Block Tree, there are 5 Greeks I-A2512 confirmed along with our new member and a guy from Poland. I couldn't find informations about this guy from Poland though. I know there is a major Jewish subclade down the I-A2512 branch but this guy from Poland is confirmed as I-A2512 positive only.

There is also a branch down the I-Y18331 subclade known on YFULL asI-Y158862 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y158862/). So far, there are two Greeks from Macedonia here along with an ethnic Russian and an Ukrainian and the TMRCA according to YFULL is only 1150 ybp.

Still though, this branch I-Y18331 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/) is most diverse in Greece.

There are a lot of mysteries around this subclade and would be interesting to see the future developments here.

887728 is my cousin. His male line can be traced to the island of Fourni in the mid-19th century. Before that we have competing oral stories about where he was from. My dad's side of the family says he came from the Peloponnese and that we was "Maniote." My YiaYia and great aunts interpreted this word to mean "wild man" or "crazy person" but they did not know there was a region of Pellopenese called "Mani" and may have misinterpreted what they were told.

My mom is insistent that while "Mani" is correct, it was a place somewhere in "northern Greece" and that her father still went there in the 1950s to make charcoal. I used to be able to find a place in Macedonia named "Mani" on Google Earth that was relatively near the coast, but I can't find it anymore. Another more distant cousin says that family came from the island of Amorgos.

My cousin has a perfect match at 12 markers at FTDNA to man from the Peloponnese, but we have not been able to convince him to pay to test more markers. All this is very interesting. I try to keep up on the project page when Big-Y results are announced, so maybe this person's results will help answer our family mystery.

losAntonis
10-29-2020, 07:46 PM
There is also a branch down the I-Y18331 subclade known on YFULL asI-Y158862 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y158862/). So far, there are two Greeks from Macedonia here ...

Yes, this is my father's mother's paternal line.

Aspar
10-29-2020, 09:03 PM
Yes, this is my father's mother's paternal line.

Interesting, what is their native tongue?
I see that on YFULL they have 'Macedonian' as their first language so I guess they are slavophone people?
Pella is the administrative unit known in Bulgarian as Meglen. The slavophone dialect in Pella or Meglen is very similar to my own dialect from south-eastern North Macedonia:
https://i.postimg.cc/3NnVzKsH/400px-Macedonian-Slavic-dialects.png (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/R0NXnXhh/map.png (https://postimages.org/)

losAntonis
11-03-2020, 02:59 PM
Interesting, what is their native tongue?
I see that on YFULL they have 'Macedonian' as their first language so I guess they are slavophone people?
Pella is the administrative unit known in Bulgarian as Meglen. The slavophone dialect in Pella or Meglen is very similar to my own dialect from south-eastern North Macedonia:

Their native tongue is what is called sometimes Agean Macedonian. My ancestors are from Meglen, today called Almopia. The dialect is a little bit different, that the one spoken in Florina. I suppose your dialect is closer to ours.
The ancestors of the cousin of my father, who did the test, are from Popovo Selo, on the mountain Paiko north of Pella. They moved to other villages (Mandalovo and Tudurtse), when the village was left about 1905.

In addition to that, he told me a strange story, when I took his test. He told me, that a historian told him long ago, that his ancestors were from Costantinople long time ago. The autokrat of Costantinopel locked them on the isle of Kostur (Kastoria), and after he gave them peace, they were settled in this area. Unfortunately, he did not know in wich time, this should have happened, and I wasn't able to find such a story in a history book, yet, so I don't know if it is a valid story.

Aspar
11-04-2020, 12:02 AM
Their native tongue is what is called sometimes Agean Macedonian. My ancestors are from Meglen, today called Almopia. The dialect is a little bit different, that the one spoken in Florina. I suppose your dialect is closer to ours.
The ancestors of the cousin of my father, who did the test, are from Popovo Selo, on the mountain Paiko north of Pella. They moved to other villages (Mandalovo and Tudurtse), when the village was left about 1905.

In addition to that, he told me a strange story, when I took his test. He told me, that a historian told him long ago, that his ancestors were from Costantinople long time ago. The autokrat of Costantinopel locked them on the isle of Kostur (Kastoria), and after he gave them peace, they were settled in this area. Unfortunately, he did not know in wich time, this should have happened, and I wasn't able to find such a story in a history book, yet, so I don't know if it is a valid story.

Yes, my native dialect called Gevgeli sub-dialect makes one whole with the Voden sub-dialect and both are part of the so called Solun dialect.
Yes, it's different than the one spoken in Lerin and although I haven't heard Lerin native speech, according to the dialect map I've posted it should be similar to the Central dialect of North Macedonia which is the base of the standardized Macedonian language.
Our dialects are different than this Central dialect and one of the main distinguishing features is the retention of the Old Church Slavonic 'back yer - (Ъ)' in our dialects unlike the Central dialect spoken in Lerin.
For example:
Solun dialect: дълго(dlgo) - long; мъка(mka) - trouble; вълк(vlk) - wolf; дъб(db) - oak; вълна(vlna) - wool; Събота(Sbota) - Saturday; слънце(slnce) - sun; etc.
Central dialect: долго(dolgo) - long; мака(maka) - trouble; волк(volk) - wolf; даб(dab) - oak; волна(volna) - wool; Сабота(Sabota) - Saturday; сонце(sontse) - sun; etc.

Other distinguishing feature is that in the Central dialect there is a prevalence of 'kj' instead of 'sht' and in the Solun dialect these sounds are found in equal measure.
For example:
Sol: сношти(snoshti), Cen: синоќа(sinokja); Sol: гашти(gashti), Cen: гаќи(gakji); Sol: ќерка(kjerka), Cen: ќерка(kjerka); Sol: куќа(kukja), Cen: куќа(kukja); etc.

That's an interesting story of the family origin of the people in question. That might explain their evidently Greek subclade of I-Y3120 to some point although if the story is real then it should have taken place before the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans which is quite long ago. Payak/Paiko is nevertheless very beautiful and mysterious place, it's also the place of origin for most of my ancestors. Although the village my paternal line hails from was regarded as a Meglen Vlach village in the past, other lines of my family tree hail from typically Slavophone places such as Gumendze/Goummenisa and Boymitsa/Axiopouli.