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bibo
02-07-2017, 12:41 PM
Hello everyone, I'm Jay. I must say that I've learned a lot from you bright people and after finally getting up enough courage to post, I'm still probably going to ask a stupid question but for curiosity's sake I'm willing to take the risk.

So far, the only autosomal dna test I've taken is AncestryDNA's. And according to them, I am 39% European > 23% Scandinavian, 11% Great Britain, 4% Irish, 1% Iberian, and 1% Italian. My mother took the test as well and her European ancestry only amounts to 15% Great Britain. Unfortunately, my father is deceased but by the process of elimination and because he was definitely the more mixed of the two, I think it's fairly safe to assume that my mother supplied my Great Britain ancestry and my father the remainder, including all of that Scandinavian which brings me to my conundrum.

My father's father's side of the family is completely native Scottish, born in Glasgow, with a paper trail that goes back to the 17th century. My father's mother's side of the family is Afro-Cuban, and though phenotype doesn't always tell the full story, they look like West Africans and seem not to be so admixed, if at all. I say this to infer that in all likelihood, the 23% Scandinavian and 4% Irish, at the least, probably come only by way of my grandfather's Scottish line.

From the little bit of research I've done, I've learned that on AncestryDNA, the Great Britain component roughly correlates to English/Anglo-Saxon ancestry whereas the Ireland component corresponds to the more Celtic ancestry found in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Considering my grandfather's Scottish heritage, I expected a lot more Irish than the measly 4% I received. I know that Scotland also received genetic input from Scandinavia by way of the Vikings and Anglo-Saxons and so it doesn't shock me to have some Scandinavian ancestry but 23% just struck me as a lot. And then I read in a few places that AncestryDNA tends to overestimate Scandinavian DNA because of its similarity to British DNA, or something to that effect. Therefore, I decided to run my dna through some Gedmatch utilities to possibly find some resolution there and what I found confirmed some of my misgivings and I'm here essentially asking you smart folks if I'm on to something.

Here are my results using the various Eurogenes calculators:

EUtest V2 K15
North_Sea 13.72
Atlantic 15.52
Baltic 1.55
Eastern_Euro 4.84
West_Med 1.16
West_Asian 3.57
East_Med -
Red_Sea 0.80
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian 0.97
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.26
Oceanian 0.08
Northeast_African 4.92
Sub-Saharan 52.61

^^Please correct me if I'm wrong but I read somewhere that a higher Atlantic percentage roughly means that one is more "Celtic" whereas a higher North Sea result implies being more "Germanic." My thinking is that if I were 23% Scandinavian and especially by way of Norway and Denmark via their Iron Age incursions into Scotland, that should factor more readily into my North Sea score but it seems the Atlantic component took the lion's share of it. I think it's also worth noting that my 11% Great Britain on AncestryDNA (which is supposedly comparable to English/Frisian/West&North German) should probably fall within the North Sea component as well, correct?

K36
Amerindian 0.21
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque -
Central_African 2.92
Central_Euro 0.51
East_African 5.11
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 1.13
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro -
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 1.08
Fennoscandian 7.36 (A Finnish/Baltic component)
French 3.70
Iberian 9.86
Indo-Chinese 0.24
Italian -
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 5.93 (The reference population for this component is Cornwall, I believe)
North_Caucasian 2.11
North_Sea 7.16
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic 0.05
Pygmy 5.34
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 1.59
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.91
West_African 44.78
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

K12
Population
South Asian -
Caucasus 4.84
Southwest Asian 0.22
North Amerindian + Arctic 0.57
Siberian 0.21
Mediterranean 3.27
East Asian 0.54
West African 57.20
Volga-Ural 2.96
South Baltic 2.40
Western European 14.38 (this component peaks in Western Ireland)
North Sea 13.41 (this component peaks in Southern Norway)

^^This one is tricky. But again, if my 11% Great Britain (Anglo-Saxon) falls into the North Sea component, where did my 23% Scandinavian run off to? Notice I have over 14% West European which peaks in Western Ireland (which I'm assuming also stands in for Scottish DNA) and then 2.4% South Baltic. Could this be some Mesolithic WHG DNA being picked up that AncestryDNA chooses to read as Scandinavian? I say that this one is tricky because if the 11% Great Britain component on AncestryDNA actually correlated to native British (as in Celtic) DNA, that alongside my reported 4% Irish would equal 15% British DNA overall and would seem to gel with the my 14% on the k12's Western European component. And then some of my 23% Scandinavian on AncestryDNA would then fit more accurately into the North Sea category. But alas, it seems to me that everything is switched around.

K12b
Western European 19.77(this component peaks in Cornwall)
Siberian 0.65
East African 5.88
West Central Asian 3.07
South Asian -
West African 51.24
Caucasus 2.50
Finnish 3.71 (this component peaks in Finland)
Mediterranean 4.21
Southwest Asian 0.73
North European 7.18 (this component peaks in Lithuania)
East Asian 1.06

^^And here again, can't the West European component be regarded as more "Celtic" because it peaks in Cornwall? Even if I combine my AncestryDNA's "Anglo-Saxon" Great Britain with the "Celtic" Ireland percentages (15% total), that would leave almost 5% unaccounted for in the Western European component. Say that remaining 5% is Iron Age Scandinavian (Norwegian), could it be that the remaining 18% of my "Scandinavian" DNA (according to AncestryDNA) is captured in the K12b's North European (7.18 and peaks in Lithuania) and Finnish (3.71) components which are more broadly North European Mesolithic Baltic Hunter Gatherer type "Scandinavian" as opposed to the Iron Age variety brought by the Vikings and Anglo-Saxons? I don't know, I think I've confused myself. Am I making any sense at all?

A Norfolk L-M20
02-07-2017, 01:04 PM
Just as a side note - that Ancestry.com "British", does not equate very well with English - who on average, receive only 37% of it themselves. I suspect that it is another poorly selected reference for Britain, that includes Scottish, Welsh, etc? Is that right? I haven't tested with ancestry, (one reason I have not tested there, is that they have in the past appeared confused over the identity of British, English, etc.), so I'm not really an expert by any means, but I do not trust their "British" reference to be a good indicator of English ancestry. I bet that their Irish and British percentages overlap each other. Can any Irish testers confirm or dismiss this? Best wishes with the journey of discovery!

bibo
02-07-2017, 01:21 PM
It might also help to add my results from DNA.LAND:

West Eurasian 42%:

Northwest European - 32%
Southwest European - 5.7%
Finnish - 4.4%

And here's an nMonte run I did using thd MDLP23:

Bibo
"Bamoun" 20
"Yoruba" 9.45
"Hausa" 7.3
"Esan_Nigeria_ESN" 7.2
"Frisian" 5.15
"Kashub" 4.45
"Lithuanian" 4.1
"Basque_French" 3.65
"Pole" 3.6
"Basque_Spanish" 3.25
"Brong" 2.7
"Wambo" 2.3
"Croat_BH" 1.95
"Irish" 1.9
"Kaba" 1.6
"Latvian" 1.5
"Igbo" 1.35
"BedouinB" 1.3
"Pygmy" 1.3
"Slovenian" 1.15
"Spanish_Pais_Vasco_IBS" 1.15
"Georgian_Imereti" 1.05
"Kosovar" 1
"Alur" 0.9
"Kakheti" 0.85
"Luhya_Kenya_LWK" 0.75
"Armenian" 0.7
"British" 0.65
"Aymara" 0.5
"Belarusian_West" 0.5
"Daur" 0.4
"MbutiPygmy" 0.4
"Wichi" 0.4
"French_South" 0.35
"Mende_Sierra_Leone_MSL" 0.35
"Belarusian_South" 0.3
"Georgian_Laz" 0.3
"Mada" 0.25
"North_German" 0.25
"Ulchi" 0.25
"Armenian_Yerevan" 0.2
"Guarani" 0.2
"Surui" 0.2
"Bosnian" 0.15
"Fang" 0.15
"Georgian" 0.15
"Luo" 0.15
"Macedonian" 0.15
"Serb_BH" 0.15
"Ukrainian" 0.15
"Bantu_SA_Herero" 0.1
"BantuKenya" 0.1
"Cabecar" 0.1
"Croat" 0.1
"Dinka" 0.1
"Dogon" 0.1

Again, I'm just trying to figure out where did my 23% Scandinavian disappear to in these results. From my amateur eyes, it seems like the algorithm is picking up on WHG broadly European "Scandinavian" that's also found in the British Isles since the Mesolithic versus the Iron Age Scandinavians and their DNA legacy.


Just as a side note - that Ancestry.com "British", does not equate very well with English - who on average, receive only 37% of it themselves. I suspect that it is another poorly selected reference for Britain, that includes Scottish, Welsh, etc? Is that right? I haven't tested with ancestry, (one reason I have not tested there, is that they have in the past appeared confused over the identity of British, English, etc.), so I'm not really an expert by any means, but I do not trust their "British" reference to be a good indicator of English ancestry. I bet that their Irish and British percentages overlap each other. Can any Irish testers confirm or dismiss this? Best wishes with the journey of discovery!

Thanks! And yes, I believe the same to be true about AncestryDNA's "British" confusion. Here you go, straight from the horse's mouth:

https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2016/09/19/how-british-are-you-dna-study-reveals-uks-ethnic-diversity/



Think you’re more British than queuing for cricket in the rain? Or drinking Pimms with sun burn? By looking at our DNA data, we’ve been able to not only find the most British region in the UK, but prove how ethnically diverse Britain is.

And the winner is?

Yorkshire! New analysis of the genetic history of two million people worldwide by AncestryDNA has proved Yorkshire to be the most ‘British’ region in the UK with their genetic makeup containing an average 41 per cent Anglo-Saxon ancestry.

And what about the rest of us?

The results found that the average UK resident is 36.94% British (Anglo Saxon), 21.59% Irish (Celtic) and 19.91% Western European (the region covered today by France and Germany).

London is the most ethnically diverse, having the highest amount of heritage from 17 of the 26 regions analysed. The East Midlands has the most Scandinavian ancestry (10.37%) as well as the most Eastern European (2.47%).

Live in the East of England and always wondered why you have a strong penchant for pizza, pastries and gyros? It might have something to do with the East of England having the most Italian/Greek (Southern European) ancestry (2.53%) and Western European (French/German) (22.52%) ancestry, as well as the highest amount from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain/Portugal) (3.43%).

English people have significantly less Irish ancestry (just 20% of their genetic make-up) on average compared to people living in Scotland (43.84%), Wales (31.99%) and Northern Ireland (48.49%).

English residents do however have the highest amount of Scandinavian (9.39%) and Western European (French/German) (20.45%) ancestry.
Scottish residents have the highest amount of Finnish/Northwest Russian (1.31%) heritage, which is explained by their geographic proximity. While Welsh residents have the highest proportion of ancestry from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain/Portugal) in the UK (3%).


I agree with you that in reality, their "British" and "Irish" clusters most probably overlap and that their divisions aren't as neat as they claim to be.