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MikeWhalen
02-08-2017, 12:37 AM
hey family...there are at least 3 separate spots on this map where our family name or variation can be found (Whalen, Whelan, Phalen, O'Failoan and a dozen more)
...one where we were Princes/Kings, one where we were Church abbots and one where we were Barons
...none related, just coincidence given the popularity of the Irish root of our name
....Wolf

can you find them?

13852

Mike

Bas
02-08-2017, 05:22 PM
Thanks,what a great map! My paternal grandfather is from Ennis and that's actually roughly where this map puts my own surname.

RobertCasey
02-08-2017, 08:32 PM
What I really like about YDNA testing, it is really confirming Clan histories and track maps like this one. R-L226 is one the four known haplogroups that are dominated by Irish ancestors. The Dal Cais originated in the north central part of Munster - primarily the western edge of Tipperary County. This is just east and south of the large long lake - Lough Derg (just east of the harp on the map).

Just east of the lake, you find O'Briens (1st most common), Kennedy (4th), Hogan (6th) as well as Gleason (which I am trying to get Maurice to upgrade his cousins to 67 markers). A little further south, you find O'Brien again (1st) and O'Casey (2nd), McGrath (4th), Carey (13th) which is the most genetically related cluster to the Casey cluster as well as Morrisey. A little west from there you find yet a third O'Brien (1st), O'Mahoney (7th) and Callaghan (10th). Southwest of the lake you find a second cluster of McGrath (4th) as well as McNamara. In the extreme southwest tip of Ireland, you find a second Hogan cluster (6th), Lynch (8th) as well as Bresnan. Quite a ways east of the lake you find Nolan (11th). All surnames with five or more testers are either on the map in southern Ireland with two having English origins. This includes all thirteen most common surnames under L226.

So L226 tracks this map quite as well as it tracks Clan history as well as these clusters of these surnames track the early Irish census records. Only Butler and Hart are not found on this map due to Irish's favorite person Cromwell. But these English lines did adopt a lot of Irish L226 sons into their families or some of the L226 men took English names for other reasons. Since Brian Boru was the first to conquer all of Ireland, the O'Brien's (1st) flourished as well as their related line, Casey (2nd) who flourished as well.

As additional testing continues to expand our knowledge of L226, genetic testing continues to track Clan history and genealogical records. However, we are now able to chart 75 % of L226 which is revealing that there ten different O'Brien clusters just under L226 and we just discovered the third Casey cluster under L226. Genetic testing is revealing much more genetic varieties of surname lines that can not be connected in less than 1,000 years ago. It is also really great in revealing a deluge of related lines due to both shared YSTR signatures and shared YSNP branches.

Bollox79
02-10-2017, 08:01 PM
I would like to get my cousin and Uncle O'Dwyer tested. My 3rd Great Grandfather Philip O'Dwyer lived (and was possibly born) in Clare, Ireland. 2nd GGF Joseph O'Dwyer came over in the 1800s. I am curious as to whether Philip was a descendant of the O'Dwyer chieftains and/or his wife Nora (Lenora?) was a Butler. Reason I think this is well... location (O'Dwyers were pushed out of Kilnamanagh into Clare and Connaught by our favorite Cromwell (not!)... Philip O'Dwyer was the last Chief (though a few generations before MY Philip) and his wife was named or nicknamed Nora as well. In addition to that, I have had autosomal testing done by FTDNA, and guess which family shows up several times in my Irish American cousins: Butler from Tipperary and surrounding areas like Limerick, and Butler of Ormond. Also Fitzgeralds (and Mom reminded me there were in fact - according to family tradition - many Fitzgerald relations with her O'Dwyers... didn't even connect that till I mentioned the Butler bit). I know from doing a bit of research that the O'Dwyers started marrying the Butlers around the 1200s? In the 1600s (can't find the exact manuscript I was reading right now - bookmarked somewhere!) at least 5 O'Dwyer chieftains married Butler women - since the Butlers and O'Dwyers were closely allied and involved in the rebellions of the mid 1600s... etc. Surprised it still shows up in the autosomal, but then when you remarry into the same gene pool over and over... that tends to happen?

Thoughts guys? Do you guys have any O'Dwyers participating in the projects? My Grandfather's mother was also a McGuire - probably from Fermanagh or Roscommon (I get distant 4th to 5th cousin McGuires from those areas - but my particular McGuires were more recently from Trenton in Ontario - mixed with MacAulays and MacDonalds, but from Ireland originally and spent a few generations in Canada then married with my O'Dwyers from upper state New York south of the lake where Trenton is!).

Slainte,
(My Gaelic name) Cathal Dubh "Charlie"

etripp17
09-13-2017, 03:27 AM
I did not see my surname: Ennis. But I did see what has been claimed to be a possible origin for the name: Hennessey. It was located close to where I think my Ennis ancestors lived.

spruithean
09-13-2017, 04:35 AM
I did not see my surname: Ennis. But I did see what has been claimed to be a possible origin for the name: Hennessey. It was located close to where I think my Ennis ancestors lived.

Considering that Ennis seems to come from Ó hAonghuis/Ó hAonghusa which is also the Gaelic form of O'Hennessey I would say you're probably correct with your linking to the Hennessey on the map.

I found a handful of the names in my family tree on that map. Now if only I could break down the giant brickwalls.

Sikeliot
09-13-2017, 05:00 AM
I notice that coastal Leinster (especially the area from Dublin to Kilkenny) on the map seems to have a near absence of the "Mc" and "Mac" surnames that characterize Ulster, Connacht, and the western coast, and very few of the "O'" surnames of Cork/Kerry. On the other hand, a lot of Norman and English sounding names there (as well as in Connacht but you see a lot of the Mc/Mac surnames in Connacht and not in Leinster).

Jessie
09-13-2017, 06:02 AM
I notice that coastal Leinster (especially the area from Dublin to Kilkenny) on the map seems to have a near absence of the "Mc" and "Mac" surnames that characterize Ulster, Connacht, and the western coast, and very few of the "O'" surnames of Cork/Kerry. On the other hand, a lot of Norman and English sounding names there (as well as in Connacht but you see a lot of the Mc/Mac surnames in Connacht and not in Leinster).

A lot of the O and Mac was dropped off Irish names.


Most Irish surnames were anglicised during the second half of the 16th century (1550-1600), and appear for the first time in in an English dress in the State documents of that period. The anglicisation seems to have been the work of Anglo-Irish government officials possessing, in some instances at least, a knowledge of the Irish language. The present anglicised forms, generally speaking, date from that period.

http://www.libraryireland.com/names/anglicisation-irish-surnames.php

Sikeliot
09-13-2017, 06:19 AM
A lot of the O and Mac was dropped off Irish names.


So maybe in Leinster it happened more because of the region being most quickly Anglicized?

I know some of the surnames rarely have their original form. Murphy, which is now the most common surname in Ireland, was originally Anglicized to McMurrough (which also I assume has become "Murray"?), I have heard, but I have never seen this in real life among any Irish person though. I have seen McMurray and I think their family was from Roscommon or Mayo.

JMcB
09-13-2017, 02:54 PM
It's nice to see a version of my surname represented twice. Once in Donegal and once in Antrim. Although, mine is the Scottish variant McBryde, which was first found in Arran and now is mostly found in Lanarkshire. It's believed the name originated in County Donegal as: Mac Giolla Brighde, meaning; Son of a servant of St. Brigid.

09-13-2017, 03:00 PM
Wot no "Lane" ? That is my Irish line. :(

spruithean
09-13-2017, 03:14 PM
Wot no "Lane" ? That is my Irish line. :(

Where were they from in Ireland?

09-13-2017, 03:18 PM
Where were they from in Ireland?

boherbue, county cork

spruithean
09-13-2017, 03:22 PM
boherbue, county cork

Perhaps they were originally Ó Laighin from Co. Kerry? Or perhaps Ó Luain or Ó Liatháin.

Dubhthach
09-13-2017, 03:33 PM
I wouldn't call that map a scientific list of surnames. In comparison here is the Griffith Survey data for the surname 'Lane' note the high number of households in Cork

https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Lane

There was over 300 households in Cork (county and city) bearing the name in mid 19th century

Dubhthach
09-13-2017, 04:05 PM
I notice that coastal Leinster (especially the area from Dublin to Kilkenny) on the map seems to have a near absence of the "Mc" and "Mac" surnames that characterize Ulster, Connacht, and the western coast, and very few of the "O'" surnames of Cork/Kerry. On the other hand, a lot of Norman and English sounding names there (as well as in Connacht but you see a lot of the Mc/Mac surnames in Connacht and not in Leinster).

Here's breakdown, covering the coast from Dublin to Wexford, plus some of the Kilkenny names

Regan -- Gaelic Irish
Cullen -- Gaelic Irish
Byrne -- Gaelic Irish
Doyle -- Gaelic Irish (claims of been viking is over-literal translation!)
Redmond -- English/Norman
Walsh -- Cambro-Norman (more specifically it literally means 'someone from Wales')
Bolger -- Gaelic Irish
Stafford -- English/English
Doran -- Gaelic Irish
Hartley -- Gaelic Irish
Kavanagh -- Gaelic Irish (the name is actually mainline of the medieval Kings of Leinster!)
Larkin -- Gaelic Irish
Malone -- Gaelic Irish
Devereux -- Norman
Keating -- Norman
Rossiter -- English/Norman
Carroll -- Gaelic Irish
Phelan -- Gaelic Irish
Dunphy -- Gaelic Irish
Breen -- Gaelic Irish
Ryan -- Gaelic Irish
Sinnott -- English/Norman
Shortall -- English/Norman
Barron -- Cambro-Norman (branch of the Fitzgearlds)
Comerford -- English/norman
Brennan -- Gaelic-Irish
Gilpatrick/Fitzpatrick -- Gaelic Irish, the name of ruling lineage of kingdom of Osraighe before Norman invasion, Kilkenny was carved out of Osraighe, (Ossory is name of catholic diocese)


The language shift in Leinster first is really a byproduct of the wars of the 17th century with continual shift throughout the 18th century. I believe by mid 18th century most of core of Leinster had undergone shift to English, this is evident in some of accounts from the 'Irish College' in Paris where there are complaints about priest training taking place in Irish when it comes to training of priests for Leinster etc.

If you look at accounts form the 16th century in comparison you will see that Irish was spoken throughout Leinster apart from in very south of Wexford where Yola (a middle English variant) was spoken and likewise in parts of North Dublin ye had another 'Middle English' variant known as Fingalian. Both became extinct in late 18th/ealry 19th century due to normalisation on standard English (or more specifically Hiberno-English). Plenty of accounts of people speaking Irish within the 'Pale' if anything many of the 'Old English' (eg. descendants of original Norman colony, who didn't become Protestant) spoke Irish due to language shift. In case of Dublin, it's probable Irish survived as community language in Dublin mountains until the mid 19th century in a number of locations.

Dubhthach
09-13-2017, 04:24 PM
What I would also caution about is the likes of the following maps. This is based purely on land-holding (eg. Lordship) and isn't actually reflective of underlying population structure, the fact that most of these lordships underwent language shift to Irish points to contuinity in underlying population structure (eg. the lords might have been 'Norman', but actual people working the farms

https://www.irishorigenes.com/sites/default/files/field/image/medieval%20Ireland.png

There's also terminology issues, for example in case of Antrim the Mac Domhnaill of the Isles would have regarded themselves as Gael's (though of recent scottish origin), likewise the Gallowglass families though obviously of Hebridean origin (thence their name) were heavily intermarried. In both cases the map above is really representing the origin of the lordship holders (eg. McSweeney of Fanad etc.)

09-13-2017, 04:33 PM
Perhaps they were originally Ó Laighin from Co. Kerry? Or perhaps Ó Luain or Ó Liatháin.

Maybe, I have no idea actually, I’m trying to research that part of my family but currently hitting a brick wall.

09-13-2017, 04:34 PM
I wouldn't call that map a scientific list of surnames. In comparison here is the Griffith Survey data for the surname 'Lane' note the high number of households in Cork

https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Lane

There was over 300 households in Cork (county and city) bearing the name in mid 19th century

Thanks for that, at least the name Lane, seems to correlate with county Cork quite well.

spruithean
09-13-2017, 08:29 PM
Maybe, I have no idea actually, I’m trying to research that part of my family but currently hitting a brick wall.


I know the feeling, I have a number of brickwalls in Ireland, Scotland and some parts of England. Maybe I'm bad at this :biggrin1: , though I've had great success with genealogy in the Netherlands that's for sure.

Thanks a whole bunch Dubhthach for those links and maps along with the overview of those Irish family names. Do you know of any other reliable sources for Irish surnames and their origins?

Dubhthach
09-14-2017, 09:00 AM
Well one of my go to sources is Patrick Wolfe's book on Irish surnames from 1923, it's still in print. As it's now out of copyright you can search it online
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/contents.php

so mar shampla:
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/d/de-leighinn-de-lein.php

de LÉIGHINN, de LÉIN—XI—de Lane, Lane; Norman 'de Lane,' Middle English 'atte Lane,' i.e., at the Lane, from residence thereby; a very rare surname in Ireland, nearly all our Lanes being of Irish origin.

http://www.libraryireland.com/names/ol/o-laighin.php

Ó LAIGHIN—I—O Loyne, O Layne, O Leyne, O Lyne, O Lyen, O Lane, O Leane, O Lien, O Lyan, O'Leyne, O'Lane, O'Lyons, Layne, Leyne, Lyne, Lane, Leane, Lean, Leen, Lyons, &c.; 'descendant of Laighean' (lance, spear); the name (1) of an ancient family in Co. Galway, who retained considerable property in the barony of Kilconnell down to the end of the 17th century; (2) of a Kildare family, formerly seated at Cill, now anglicised Kill, near Naas; and (3) of an old Kerry family. The name is now very common all over Ireland. It appears to have been sometimes pronounced Ó Laoighin. In Kerry at the present day it is generally pronounced Ó Leighin, and sometimes Ó Lighin.

http://www.libraryireland.com/names/ol/o-leathain.php

Ó LEATHÁIN—I—O Lahan, O Laane, Laine, Lane; probably a corruption of Ó Liatháin, which see; in use in the neighbourhood of Shrule, but very rare.

etc. One caveat I would mention is that you will always have to expand Mc to Mac when doing a search. John Grenham's blog is useful resource as well, particulary his mapping tools as post upthread
https://www.johngrenham.com/surnames/

JMcB
09-14-2017, 12:29 PM
I wouldn't call that map a scientific list of surnames. In comparison here is the Griffith Survey data for the surname 'Lane' note the high number of households in Cork

https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Lane

There was over 300 households in Cork (county and city) bearing the name in mid 19th century

Hello Dubhtach,

Thank you for posting that interesting link. It has allowed me to possibly confirm something I've assumed but didn't know for sure. My 2cd MDKA, James McBryde was originally from Galloway and according to what's been passed down through the years, his family was part of the MacBryde branch of the MacDonald Clan of the Isles

My earliest known document for him is a marriage certificate from 1758 that records his marriage to Mary Tate in Glasserton, Wigtownshire, Scotland. Four years later they migrated to Northern Ireland and then in 1772 they came to America, where they received a land grant for 300 acres in South Carolina.

All of my exact & one step surname matches, whose MDKAs post date mine, list their MDKAs as being from Antrim, Ireland. I have always assumed that they were probably originally from Scotland but were unable to trace their ancestors back that far. So I found the following underlined portion to be of interest, as it was unknown to me.

"The principal Irish family of the name (McBride) were based in the north of Co. Donegal in Raymunterdoney, where they were very prominent in the church, a number of the family becoming bishops. A branch migrated to Co. Down in early times, where the surname remains quite numerous. "In Ulster also, the name may have a Scottish origin, from the descendants of one Gillebride, progenitor of one branch of the Clan Donald".

So perhaps, another piece of the puzzle.

Thanks, again.

Saetro
09-15-2017, 12:43 AM
I wouldn't call that map a scientific list of surnames.

It's only a tea towel.
Hopefully Irish linen.

Thank you for your mentions of some good sources.

These sort of media - tea towels and household bric-a-brac, clan memorabilia and the like - may not be authoritative, but in the absence of other, better sources, they still have the ability to tug the heart-strings. As such they can be useful tools for family history society displays, whether within the society or as part of outreach.
As a youngster, many years ago I saw something similar for Scotland while waiting for my father to finish the shopping.
It incited interest in finding out. While at the same time showing me some of the flaws in such a map.

We certainly need authoritative sources of information.
We also need to inspire people to join groups who share our interest.

AngryLeeloo94
09-15-2017, 03:59 PM
My last name is Hill. Not sure if it's even on there.

spruithean
09-15-2017, 04:15 PM
My last name is Hill. Not sure if it's even on there.

A Web page about the surname Hill in Ireland:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hillsofsalem/heraldry2.html

msmarjoribanks
01-04-2018, 02:39 AM
The johngrenham.com site is interesting.

One of my brick walls is James Craney b. ?? in Ireland, children b. 1839-1854 in Indiana, maybe in the army around 1850, maybe dead or just missing/gone from the family by 1856 (and not with them in the 1850 census either).

Craney surprised me with how uncommon it seemed to be (in the US, I mean, although it doesn't seem to be very common in Ireland either), as somehow it seemed like a common enough name before I starting searching for it.

The map puts the name almost entirely in the north -- Belfast or County Armagh (especially Lurgan). Cranny spelling seems more common and found more in the south.

Teutorigos
01-04-2018, 09:19 AM
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/d/de-burc-de-burca.php

It is not letting me copy and paste it, on my smartphone, long story short : My last name Burke is one of the three most important ruling class Norman names in Ireland. It is now somewhat common but the Normans were Celto-Germanic and the average score for an Irishman , on AncestryDNA , is 93% insular Celtic were I score 52 % insular celtic, 37% Anglo-Saxon and 6% Scandinavian while still having my only genetic community being Ulster Irish. It seems I come from a direct line of Hibernian-Norman nobles from Donegal_Ireland not to be considered 'mere Irish' by the British. Nothing against the more Celtic Irish, of course, I am just saying.

FionnSneachta
02-04-2018, 02:55 PM
Wot no "Lane" ? That is my Irish line. :(

I have a book on Irish surnames by Edward MacLysaght. For Lane he writes, 'In addition to English families of Lane settled in Ireland, we find the name used as the anglicised form of several Gaelic-Irish surnames - see Lehane, Lyne, Lyons. The majority of people called Lane are from Cos. Cork and Limerick.' That matches up with your Lanes at least.

The map provided with in the book shows Lehanes at the south Cork coast. I decided to include the map. It's interesting to see that a lot of the surnames in my family stayed around the one area. The surnames that are in capital letters and a larger font would have had more territory and power than those of smaller font and letters. For example O'Conor Rua in Roscommon (that I think I probably circled as a child) is done in this style. The map shows the location of the Gaelic septs of the principal Hiberno-Norman families in the period after the Anglo-Norman invasion and before the upheavals of the seventeenth century.

21232
21233

spruithean
02-04-2018, 08:39 PM
A Web page about the surname Hill in Ireland:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hillsofsalem/heraldry2.html

Unfortunately Rootsweb is still in the perpetual limbo after the security issues. How disappointing.

Dubhthach
02-05-2018, 10:13 AM
Unfortunately Rootsweb is still in the perpetual limbo after the security issues. How disappointing.

There's a copy of the page from 2012 on the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20121102175709/http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hillsofsalem/heraldry2.html

Webb
02-05-2018, 06:20 PM
There are 37 Webbs in Cork!!!!

Dubhthach
02-05-2018, 08:27 PM
There are 37 Webbs in Cork!!!!

There were 37 Webb households in Cork in Griffith Survey's. In the 1901 census there was 118 individuals bearing the surname in Cork
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1901&surname=WEbb&exact=&firstname=&county19011911=Cork&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=&deafdumb=&houseNumber=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumberDiv=&protNumber=&parish=&barony=&yearsMarried=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familyId=&ageInMonths=&search=Search&sort=&pageSize=100

The majority of whom were Protestant (58.47%)

rms2
02-06-2018, 01:02 PM
We have Webbs in my Welsh Borders/Powys DF41 cluster, who seem to be reflected in the western part of the UK Webb distribution map below.

21264

Rhys Webb is a fairly well known Welsh rugby player.

21265

Webb
02-06-2018, 04:24 PM
We have Webbs in my Welsh Borders/Powys DF41 cluster, who seem to be reflected in the western part of the UK Webb distribution map below.

21264

Rhys Webb is a fairly well known Welsh rugby player.

21265

In many older books it was assumed the two Webb clusters represented two separate families, but we know now, many parts thanks to the Webb Surname DNA project, that there are a large number of separate Webb lineages. So I am assuming that the two clusters, South West England and South East England must have more to do with retaining the Old to Middle English form of the surname. I have read that most everywhere else in England the occupational surname for a weaver changed to Webster/Weaver. Why these two areas of England retained the earlier version is interesting, however. One would have to assume that just as most towns had a blacksmith, they probably also had a weaver, thus giving rise to the commonality of the name. The other interesting fact is that the majority of the lineages in the Webb DNA group are P312, with most of those being L21. Which isn't too surprising for the South West/ West England Webb's, but kind of surprising for the South East group of Webb's.

Celt_??
02-06-2018, 05:48 PM
To make it more legible, I Photo-shopped the first map of Irish names and enlarged it some:

21266

FionnSneachta
02-21-2018, 08:13 PM
I found another map of surnames in Ireland for comparison. It's the Topographical and Geographical Map of Ancient Ireland. It can be seen here: https://digital.library.villanova.edu/Item/vudl:171544#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=0&z=0.3942%2C0.5258%2C0.125%2C0.0435

There are zoomed up versions here (the link for the south east doesn't seem to work though): http://www.okelley.net/Map/index.htm

John Grenham's website can be good for seeing where all surnames were in the 1800s and early 1900s. However, a name like Kelly just makes it look like there's some sort of infestation and only really helps in looking at the numbers showing it being most common in counties Galway and Roscommon.