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R.Rocca
05-31-2013, 02:43 AM
Boattini, A. et al (2013) Uniparental Markers in Italy Reveal a Sex-Biased Genetic Structure and Different Historical Strata

Link: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441;jsessi onid=705B159C0EC2CF2DB62D57BAB3AFD88B

Unfortunately this paper only tested down to the U152*, L2 and L20 level, but there are some good takeaways, including some confirmations of data we thought we knew:

- U152 has a north-south cline in Italy.
- Of the 23 areas tested, Brescia in the region of Lombardy has the highest overall U152 frequency with 51%.
- U152* also has its highest frequency in Brescia where it is 38.5%.
- U152* makes up 62% of overall U152. As with last week's Belgium study, this number includes Z36, Z56, Z192 and U152*.
- Unlike what we saw in the Belgium study, where L2 lineages reached about 60-70% of U152 overall, in Italy it is the opposite where it only reaches 37.4%. Of their groupings of Italian regions, L2 only outnumbers U152* in the north-east. All other regions were higher in U152*. This confirms the trend seen in the FTDNA project where L2 is highest in almost all countries except for Italy.
- L2(xL20) frequency is highest in La Spezia in the Ligurian Sea with 25% and in Treviso in the north-east with 24.2%.
- In Sicily, L2 makes up only 20% of U152 samples. In the last few years we have seen the Sicilian L2(xL20) frequency in the FTDNA project go from 100% down to around 66%. It may be that the earlier high frequency was just due to low sample sizes.
- L20 is very low in the north and center (~2-3%) and is absent in the south.

Rathna
05-31-2013, 03:48 AM
- U152* makes up 62% of overall U152.


I noted this, and what does it mean if not that Italy is at the origin of this haplogroup, i.e. it gets the most ancient and undifferentiated haplotypes?

dartraighe
05-31-2013, 08:27 AM
The 7,564 TMRCA for P312 seems realistic compared with some of the dates.

R.Rocca
05-31-2013, 11:11 AM
I noted this, and what does it mean if not that Italy is at the origin of this haplogroup, i.e. it gets the most ancient and undifferentiated haplotypes?

I haven't seen any true U152* yet in Italy from the full sequences I have access to. The U152(xL2) have all been Z36+, Z56+, Z193+ and another unpublished group.

Solothurn
05-31-2013, 11:16 AM
Is this Belgium study public?




As with last week's Belgium study, this number includes Z36, Z56, Z192 and U152*.

Rathna
05-31-2013, 12:57 PM
I haven't seen any true U152* yet in Italy from the full sequences I have access to. The U152(xL2) have all been Z36+, Z56+, Z193+ and another unpublished group.

By watching the “R-U152 and subclades research project” it seems that no R-U152* has been found anywhere, or am I wrong? You know that perhaps there isn’t any U152* at all, as there isn’t any P297*or L23*, because any clade has now its SNP, but it is worth, for instance, the number of clades present in a country, and, from the Boattini’s paper, Italy should be the refugium not only of R-U152, but also of E-V13, G2a-P15, J2a-M410, R-P312, R-L2 (and I don’t speak of others I have documented in my letters).

See Table S6 of the paper.

R.Rocca
05-31-2013, 03:22 PM
Is this Belgium study public?

Yes, but it is behind a paywall. Please see the "Private Message" I sent to you.

R.Rocca
05-31-2013, 03:27 PM
By watching the “R-U152 and subclades research project” it seems that no R-U152* has been found anywhere, or am I wrong? You know that perhaps there isn’t any U152* at all, as there isn’t any P297*or L23*, because any clade has now its SNP, but it is worth, for instance, the number of clades present in a country, and, from the Boattini’s paper, Italy should be the refugium not only of R-U152, but also of E-V13, G2a-P15, J2a-M410, R-P312, R-L2 (and I don’t speak of others I have documented in my letters).

See Table S6 of the paper.

Group A1 of our project shows U152+ L2- Z36- Z56- as being heaviest in Germany. But, there are still SNPs that are not available via FTDNA or that produce erroneous reads in Geno 2.0 that might be mixed in there as well.

emmental
06-02-2013, 10:04 PM
Boattini, A. et al (2013) Uniparental Markers in Italy Reveal a Sex-Biased Genetic Structure and Different Historical Strata

- Unlike what we saw in the Belgium study, where L2 lineages reached about 60-70% of U152 overall, in Italy it is the opposite where it only reaches 37.4%. Of their groupings of Italian regions, L2 only outnumbers U152* in the north-east. All other regions were higher in U152*. This confirms the trend seen in the FTDNA project where L2 is highest in almost all countries except for Italy.


Rich,

Switzerland seems to mirror the L2 East/U152xL2 West trend seen in Italy. Looking at Steve's map here

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=205516752424012974045.0004db6e45adb64a3318 8&msa=0&ll=46.912751,7.77832&spn=3.864849,9.459229

and comparing it to the map here

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://flyswitzerland.com/i/maps/switzerland_map.gif&imgrefurl=http://flyswitzerland.com/switzerland-maps/&h=679&w=1019&sz=89&tbnid=hN1B4oiXFypbgM:&tbnh=80&tbnw=120&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dswitzerland%2Bmap%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo% 3Du&zoom=1&q=switzerland+map&usg=__iSP70T-3u2SK9HFwPOST5IW-Abs=&docid=pMi0ROmMMPXI9M&sa=X&ei=PbyrUfP2C7e34AOGzYHgDA&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQ9QEwAg&dur=173

It seems the Aare and Rhone Valleys in the west are dominated by U152xL2 and the Ticino and Rhine Valleys in the east are dominated by L2.

R.Rocca
06-03-2013, 03:15 AM
Rich,

Switzerland seems to mirror the L2 East/U152xL2 West trend seen in Italy. Looking at Steve's map here

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=205516752424012974045.0004db6e45adb64a3318 8&msa=0&ll=46.912751,7.77832&spn=3.864849,9.459229

and comparing it to the map here

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://flyswitzerland.com/i/maps/switzerland_map.gif&imgrefurl=http://flyswitzerland.com/switzerland-maps/&h=679&w=1019&sz=89&tbnid=hN1B4oiXFypbgM:&tbnh=80&tbnw=120&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dswitzerland%2Bmap%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo% 3Du&zoom=1&q=switzerland+map&usg=__iSP70T-3u2SK9HFwPOST5IW-Abs=&docid=pMi0ROmMMPXI9M&sa=X&ei=PbyrUfP2C7e34AOGzYHgDA&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQ9QEwAg&dur=173

It seems the Aare and Rhone Valleys in the west are dominated by U152xL2 and the Ticino and Rhine Valleys in the east are dominated by L2.

Yes, the Z36 trend seen in Switzerland is similar in Italy all the way down to Tuscany where both Z36 and Z56 both seem to be more frequent than L2.

Il Papā
06-23-2013, 09:36 AM
U152 in Italy seems most common in Tuscany ! nearly 40% of Tuscan men share this haplogroup .

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s1600/haplogroups_italy.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hMKZHlq141g/Uai2eteFicI/AAAAAAAAI14/Qul2-rSPeZA/s1600/Figure_S1.png


I bet Etruscan were heavily U152 . ;)

Diana
06-23-2013, 04:13 PM
U152 in Italy seems most common in Tuscany ! nearly 40% of Tuscan men share this haplogroup .

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s1600/haplogroups_italy.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hMKZHlq141g/Uai2eteFicI/AAAAAAAAI14/Qul2-rSPeZA/s1600/Figure_S1.png


I bet Etruscan were heavily U152 . ;)

Perhaps you are Z56, Z144/Z145/Z146 like my father?

Il Papā
06-24-2013, 08:08 PM
Perhaps you are Z56, Z144/Z145/Z146 like my father?

Maybe :), I should order a geno test to see. I just know that I got very weird DYS value on FTDNA.

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/6052/marqueur.png

Diana
06-27-2013, 09:11 PM
Hello,

Does FTDNA say you are R1b?





Maybe :), I should order a geno test to see. I just know that I got very weird DYS value on FTDNA.

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/6052/marqueur.png

Il Papā
06-27-2013, 09:21 PM
Hello,

Does FTDNA say you are R1b?

Yes but only r1b1a2, and R1b1b2a1a2d* (U152+ L2-) on 23andme .

I just ordered a geno kit , 240$ for some random Y snps ,yes I'm passionate haha

Diana
06-27-2013, 09:44 PM
Yes that's right you did mention that..I would join the U152 project if you haven't already and ask Richard Rocca et al. They know best. Feel lucky we have such great administrators! I was gonna say to order your deepclade but you ordered the geno test so I assume it will include that...


Yes but only r1b1a2, and R1b1b2a1a2d* (U152+ L2-) on 23andme .

I just ordered a geno kit , 240$ for some random Y snps ,yes I'm passionate haha

Il Papā
06-27-2013, 10:18 PM
Yes that's right you did mention that..I would join the U152 project if you haven't already and ask Richard Rocca et al. They know best. Feel lucky we have such great administrators! I was gonna say to order your deepclade but you ordered the geno test so I assume it will include that...

I already joined it since 1 year ,but what could rocca tell me that I don't already know yet ?

Diana
06-28-2013, 02:55 AM
I already joined it since 1 year ,but what could rocca tell me that I don't already know yet ?

Well if anyone would know it would be him.. There were 1K genomes participants from Tuscany tested and they were, U152, Z56, Z144/145/146+. So are you U152*? You are L2-, are also negative for the other major clades of U152?

What is your name?

Nice to meet you!

Titus Valerius
08-11-2013, 05:48 AM
Hi all,
I was wondering if in the Belgium study were found some L20+ people

Titus Valerius
08-11-2013, 05:56 AM
Hi all,
in Francalacci's study I noticed two L20+ people only.
Can You tell me something about these two people? It would be interesting to know where they live in Sardinia. Which area?

Bolgeris
08-11-2013, 09:02 AM
Ciao,
For me, the L20 in Sardinia have come in more recent times, the L2- are anciest in Sardinia/Corsica.
I would hypothesize that they (the sardinian L20+) are of ancient origin of the Ligurian or Gallic / Lombard origin, who emigrated in Gallura or on the coasts of Sardinia in medieval / modern time?
Ciao.

R.Rocca
08-11-2013, 11:50 AM
Hi all,
in Francalacci's study I noticed two L20+ people only.
Can You tell me something about these two people? It would be interesting to know where they live in Sardinia. Which area?

Unfortunately, no data on the Sardinian sample locations.

We know that France and Italy have much fewer samples FTDNA samples, but they are pretty even with each other. So, we know just from FTDNA testing that L20, and Z367 above it are likely more frequent in France than in Italy. I think the oldest Italian culture likely associated to L20 is probably the Canegrate Culture which has strong links to the RSFO (Rhin–Suisse–France Orientale) Urnfield group. Canegrate was critical in the creation of Proto-Golasecca which we know were Celtic speaking people. Of course La Tene expansion also remains a late possibility.

Any expansion to the rest of Italy after that is likely a later migration from somewhere in Lombardia.

Bolgeris
08-11-2013, 12:17 PM
As "Lombardia" do you think : medieval Langobardia major..

Langobardia Major (Old High German: Langbardland) was the name that, in the Early Middle Ages, was given to the domains of the Lombard Kingdom in Northern Italy. It comprised Lombardy proper with its capital Pavia, the Duchies of Friuli and Trent as well as the Tuscany region. In the south it was confined by the Patrimonium Sancti Petri resp. the Papal States established after the 754 Donation of Pepin, stretching from the Tyrrhenian to the Adriatic Sea. The Lombard territories beyond were called Langobardia Minor, consisting of the Duchies of Spoleto and Benevento.

R.Rocca
08-11-2013, 02:34 PM
As "Lombardia" do you think : medieval Langobardia major..

Langobardia Major (Old High German: Langbardland) was the name that, in the Early Middle Ages, was given to the domains of the Lombard Kingdom in Northern Italy. It comprised Lombardy proper with its capital Pavia, the Duchies of Friuli and Trent as well as the Tuscany region. In the south it was confined by the Patrimonium Sancti Petri resp. the Papal States established after the 754 Donation of Pepin, stretching from the Tyrrhenian to the Adriatic Sea. The Lombard territories beyond were called Langobardia Minor, consisting of the Duchies of Spoleto and Benevento.

From today's Lombardia in northern Italy.

Bolgeris
08-11-2013, 07:24 PM
Ok
But It should however be noted that as of Lombardy (or Longobardia) in the Middle Ages were not only today's Lombardia.
Lombardy in middle age was Lombardy with Piedmont and Liguria.
Just a reminder of Longobardia Maior.
The Lombards who colonized Sicily, bringing with them in Sicily the Gallo-Italic dialects, they were coming not only from Lombardy but also from Piedmont and Liguria (all ancient Langobardia).
609

Solothurn
08-23-2013, 12:12 PM
Rich

Do you think the unpublished group have 23407934 C>G or 23119461 G>A as in the Sardinian paper?

Also is it possible any of the three (of ten) members from Italy in A:a:a: U152 (L2- Z36- Z56- Z192- Z194-) possibly have one of the above?





I haven't seen any true U152* yet in Italy from the full sequences I have access to. The U152(xL2) have all been Z36+, Z56+, Z193+ and another unpublished group.

Alessio B. Bedini
08-29-2013, 07:54 PM
[..]
- Unlike what we saw in the Belgium study, where L2 lineages reached about 60-70% of U152 overall, in Italy it is the opposite where it only reaches 37.4%. Of their groupings of Italian regions, L2 only outnumbers U152* in the north-east. All other regions were higher in U152*. This confirms the trend seen in the FTDNA project where L2 is highest in almost all countries except for Italy.
[]

In my opionion, this means that L2 is not originated in Italy.
Maybe "Adam L2" could be born in present Belgium or Western Germany about 3000-4000 years ago and then his descendants have spread both in England and in Italy.

MitchellSince1893
08-30-2013, 04:24 AM
[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s1600/haplogroups_italy.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hMKZHlq141g/Uai2eteFicI/AAAAAAAAI14/Qul2-rSPeZA/s1600/Figure_S1.png
[/QUOTE]

A little off topic but I read recently that the House of Hanover (i.e George I, George II, George, III, George IV, William IV, Kings of England); supposedly originated in Italy. "The origins of the family is from the Roman Attii family that migrate from Rome to Easte" (near Padua). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Este.

In the mid 900's Otbert was the earliest known ancestor "of the House of Este as well as of its branches, the House of Welf and the House of Hanover." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberto_I

Assuming this family history is accurate and there were no NPEs over 700 years; this thread made me wonder if the House of Hanover may have been U152.

A descendant of this family was Ivan IV of Russia. His remains were supposedly discovered in 2010 and there were discussions about conducting dna tests on his remains but I haven't seen anything about it since this article. http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/news/182news.html

I wonder if any of the illegitimate descendants of William IV via his mistress Dorothy Jordan, the Fitzclarences, have taken a y-dna test. I did see a Fitzclarence in ysearch that was L21, but not sure if it's related to William IV's line.

Alessio B. Bedini
08-30-2013, 07:32 AM
The page on en.wikipedia is not accurate. D'Este family descends from the Longbard family of Obertenghi and not by a Roman family. This is well documented for a long time and some studies are published on internet.
The thesis of en.wikipedia is based on the writings of Edward Gibbon, a historian who lived in the eighteenth century, in a pre-scientific era.

Is Better http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este

MitchellSince1893
08-30-2013, 05:10 PM
For those that don't read Italian I used Google's translation feature for http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este

Here are some quotes from the translation (with some minor corrections for readibilty).

The Este family originated from Obertenghi , lords of Milan and Liguria west towards the end of the tenth century...Adalberto d'Este lived in the early tenth century , and was a descendant of the ancient dukes and marquises of Tuscany...After Adalberto, the first names that see in the Este family are Oberto I and Oberto II, who lived in the late 10th and early 11th centuries....Alberto Azzo II d'Este ( 996 - 1097), can be considered the historical founder of the family in the town of Este...One of the sons of Azzo, Guelph IV d'Este (d. 1101 ) was adopted by his maternal uncle Guelph Guelph III whom he succeeded as Duke of Carinthia , thus changing the surname to perpetuate the name of the Guelphs...(derived directly from this family are the German houses of Hanover and Brunswick , which also gained the crown of Great Britain many centuries later).

R.Rocca
05-03-2014, 12:54 PM
Here is a follow up to the Boattini paper, but specific to Sicily and a few areas in southern Italy. Specifically for our interests, the combined U152(xL2) and L2 frequency is 11.39% in western Sicily and 6.57% in eastern Sicily. Given the small sample sizes, it's not likely meaningful.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0096074

Alessio B. Bedini
05-03-2014, 02:41 PM
The sample sizes are too small: 45 in north Calabria, 40 in Enna Province and 34 in Trapani Province. In total 119.

It would take at least 1,000 samples.
I hope Boattini soon can do even more tests L2 ;)

vettor
05-03-2014, 07:00 PM
Here is a follow up to the Boattini paper, but specific to Sicily and a few areas in southern Italy. Specifically for our interests, the combined U152(xL2) and L2 frequency is 11.39% in western Sicily and 6.57% in eastern Sicily. Given the small sample sizes, it's not likely meaningful.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0096074

I find the boattini papers ( both ) as "doctored". How can you test mtdna in a province and not test ydna...and likewise reversed. Seems the blank dna province tests did not fit their conclusions , so they excluded them.

R.Rocca
05-03-2014, 08:26 PM
I find the boattini papers ( both ) as "doctored". How can you test mtdna in a province and not test ydna...and likewise reversed. Seems the blank dna province tests did not fit their conclusions , so they excluded them.

If they didn't test Y-DNA, they probably had a good reason. Instead of making unfounded accusations, why don't you email the author and ask them what limited their testing to mtDNA in those specific areas?!?!?!

R.Rocca
05-03-2014, 08:27 PM
The sample sizes are too small: 45 in north Calabria, 40 in Enna Province and 34 in Trapani Province. In total 119.

It would take at least 1,000 samples.
I hope Boattini soon can do even more tests L2 ;)

1,000 full genome sequences from Italy would be even nicer ;)

vettor
05-04-2014, 08:31 PM
If they didn't test Y-DNA, they probably had a good reason. Instead of making unfounded accusations, why don't you email the author and ask them what limited their testing to mtDNA in those specific areas?!?!?!

thanks, I think I will

here is another view on the paper

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2014/05/sicilian-haploid-genetics-in.html

Webb
05-08-2014, 01:16 AM
Maciamo Hay posted a link on Facebook to an article at eupedia, A Genetic History of the Italians. It is an interesting read with a lot of info on U152 and some of the various subclades. Interesting, Richard Rocca, he is attributing DF27>Z196>Z209 to Vandals. He cites numerous studies that in sure most of you are already familiar with.

R.Rocca
05-08-2014, 12:29 PM
Maciamo Hay posted a link on Facebook to an article at eupedia, A Genetic History of the Italians. It is an interesting read with a lot of info on U152 and some of the various subclades. Interesting, Richard Rocca, he is attributing DF27>Z196>Z209 to Vandals. He cites numerous studies that in sure most of you are already familiar with.

Maciamo has a bad habit of discarding, or giving very little weight to, everything that happened before the Roman/Celtic/Germanic eras.

As for the association between DF27>Z196>Z209 and the Vandals, he is not citing the Francalacci data as the study makes no such claim. What he did there is put his own interpretation to the data. Sardinia had a very dense Bell Beaker population along its west coast. Unfortunately the Francalacci data seems to have come from the east coast, which is much heavier in I2a. The Sardinian Bell Beakers originated in Tuscany and Tuscan Bell Beakers are derived from southern France. So, there is no reason to look for a late/exotic origin somewhere in southern Poland for Sardinian DF27. In fact, DF27 may be as frequent in NW Italy than U152.

Dimanto
11-06-2014, 03:36 AM
Yes but only r1b1a2, and R1b1b2a1a2d* (U152+ L2-) on 23andme .

I just ordered a geno kit , 240$ for some random Y snps ,yes I'm passionate haha

For me FTDNA said just R-M269 and 23andme R1b1b2a1a2d. So there's something in it when I test the big Y at FTDNA; like for example that some subclades are more prominent in some parts of Italy right ?

Dimanto
11-06-2014, 05:19 AM
For me FTDNA said just R-M269 and 23andme R1b1b2a1a2d. So there's something in it when I test the big Y at FTDNA; like for example that some subclades are more prominent in some parts of Italy right ?

I'll consider to do the BIG-Y but I'll wait until it's cheaper.

Il Papā
11-06-2014, 02:35 PM
I'll consider to do the BIG-Y but I'll wait until it's cheaper.

There will certainly have a christmas sale I think,BIG Y will be 100$ less and maybe someone here can give you a 100$ coupon reduction,so the test would be like 250€ ,not that expansive knowing you will have also about 300 DYS value,Full mtdna sequencing.By far more valuable than only Dys test that are really outdated now, it's almost a scam from ftdna to propose such thing for that price.

Dimanto
11-07-2014, 09:46 PM
Yes but only r1b1a2, and R1b1b2a1a2d* (U152+ L2-) on 23andme .

I just ordered a geno kit , 240$ for some random Y snps ,yes I'm passionate haha

Does R1b1b2a1a2d represents ''U152+ L2'' ?

R.Rocca
11-08-2014, 01:03 PM
Does R1b1b2a1a2d represents ''U152+ L2'' ?

No, just simply U152

Dimanto
11-08-2014, 10:08 PM
No, just simply U152

Like I thought.

''Yes but only r1b1a2, and R1b1b2a1a2d* (U152+ L2-) on 23andme .''

I think I forgot the * ^ and the * represents the L2 right ?

MitchellSince1893
11-09-2014, 02:27 AM
On 23andme R-L2 is R1b1b2a1a2d3*
R-L20 is R1b1b2a1a2d3a