PDA

View Full Version : Ah why not - Living DNA results



Calas
02-09-2017, 03:22 AM
I'll follow A Norfolk L-M20's example.

With one difference, I'm feeling too lazy to post photos of what is shown so I'll just summarize. Well not lazy, tired really. Anyways.


23&me

British & Irish - 79.2%
French & German - 3.5%
Scandinavian - 0.3%
Broad NW - 11.7%
South E. - 1.6%
Iberian - 1.4%
Finn - 1.2%
Ashkenazi 0.4%
Broad European 0.5%
North African 0.1%



FTDNA

77% British Isles
9% Scandinavia
5% East European
4% Southern European

3% Eastern Middle Eastern
2%



Living DNA


Regional:
82% Great Britain & Ireland
8% Europe (North and West)
4% Europe (unassigned).
3% Europe (South)
2% Asia (South)
1% Near East

Sub-regional:

SW Scotland & Northern Ireland - 18.9%
Cumbria - 16.2%
Northwest Scotland - 10.5%
North Wales- 7.8%
Northumbria - 6.2%
Central England - 6.1
Cornwall - 3.9%
Aberdeenshire - 3.2%
South Wales Border - 1.8%
South Wales - 1.2%

6.2% unassigned Great Britain & Ireland


2% Europe (South) - Basque
1% Europe (South) - Northern Italy
4% Europe (North & West) - Scotland and Ireland
3% Europe (North & West) - Scandinavia
1% Europe (North & West) - France
2% Asia (South) - Sindh
1% Near East - Levant

4% Europe (unassigned).



Papertrail wise, I'll just do a rough summary. Family has been, over the years, ranging from low mobility to rather high mobility [Fife to Swansea in 1779 for example].

Paternal
60% Highland Scot/Irish
30% generic mid to southern English
10% Welsh

Maternal
40% Welsh [30% Northern, 10% southern]
20% generic southern English
40% Scottish



Now there are some things that could be more accurate, but the results from Living DNA are not the sort of results I'd personally go "what the heck" about.

Then again the problem for myself I can't say mine is a static ancestry like A Norfolk L-M20 as my ancestry was more mobile than theirs was. I'll say that I go back about the same time frame accuracy, early 1600s, as they do with their East Anglia ancestry so it makes us a good comparable.

Both sides have widely stayed on the western side of England, likely why it says Cumbria second and Northumbria fifth. Yes I know in the what-did-your-3rd-great-grandparents-do post I mentioned some Londoners. Doesn't mean their ancestry was London nor that they stayed there.


As for the Asian South / Near Eastern for Living DNA I am very likely inheriting the majority of that from dad though his DNA ethnicity does not/rarely [FTDNA is the only one to tag it] shows it on these bigger sites. Gedmatch catches it by degrees. The unassigned British/Irish is interesting and I wonder if some of that happens to tie with dad's ancestry itself.

sktibo
02-09-2017, 04:23 AM
I'll follow A Norfolk L-M20's example.

With one difference, I'm feeling too lazy to post photos of what is shown so I'll just summarize. Well not lazy, tired really. Anyways.


23&me

British & Irish - 79.2%
French & German - 3.5%
Scandinavian - 0.3%
Broad NW - 11.7%
South E. - 1.6%
Iberian - 1.4%
Finn - 1.2%
Ashkenazi 0.4%
Broad European 0.5%
North African 0.1%



FTDNA

77% British Isles
9% Scandinavia
5% East European
4% Southern European

3% Eastern Middle Eastern
2%



Living DNA


Regional:
82% Great Britain & Ireland
8% Europe (North and West)
4% Europe (unassigned).
3% Europe (South)
2% Asia (South)
1% Near East

Sub-regional:

SW Scotland & Northern Ireland - 18.9%
Cumbria - 16.2%
Northwest Scotland - 10.5%
North Wales- 7.8%
Northumbria - 6.2%
Central England - 6.1
Cornwall - 3.9%
Aberdeenshire - 3.2%
South Wales Border - 1.8%
South Wales - 1.2%

6.2% unassigned Great Britain & Ireland


2% Europe (South) - Basque
1% Europe (South) - Northern Italy
4% Europe (North & West) - Scotland and Ireland
3% Europe (North & West) - Scandinavia
1% Europe (North & West) - France
2% Asia (South) - Sindh
1% Near East - Levant

4% Europe (unassigned).



Papertrail wise, I'll just do a rough summary. Family has been, over the years, ranging from low mobility to rather high mobility [Fife to Swansea in 1779 for example].

Paternal
60% Highland Scot/Irish
30% generic mid to southern English
10% Welsh

Maternal
40% Welsh [30% Northern, 10% southern]
20% generic southern English
40% Scottish



Now there are some things that could be more accurate, but the results from Living DNA are not the sort of results I'd personally go "what the heck" about.

Then again the problem for myself I can't say mine is a static ancestry like A Norfolk L-M20 as my ancestry was more mobile than theirs was. I'll say that I go back about the same time frame accuracy, early 1600s, as they do with their East Anglia ancestry so it makes us a good comparable.

Both sides have widely stayed on the western side of England, likely why it says Cumbria second and Northumbria fifth. Yes I know in the what-did-your-3rd-great-grandparents-do post I mentioned some Londoners. Doesn't mean their ancestry was London nor that they stayed there.


As for the Asian South / Near Eastern for Living DNA I am very likely inheriting the majority of that from dad though his DNA ethnicity does not/rarely [FTDNA is the only one to tag it] shows it on these bigger sites. Gedmatch catches it by degrees. The unassigned British/Irish is interesting and I wonder if some of that happens to tie with dad's ancestry itself.

Thanks for posting your results, I think 10.5% NW Scotland is the highest number we've seen for that category yet- would you mind sharing which parts of Scotland your highland people came from? If you know, of course. Also, it looks like your Isles percentages add up to around 75%, were there any other categories not included in your write up?

Calas
02-09-2017, 12:55 PM
Also, it looks like your Isles percentages add up to around 75%, were there any other categories not included in your write up?

Did you include the unassigned? Your own 80.5% Isle ancestry is only 77.6% without the unassigned & 80.5% with the unassigned.

For myself without the unassigned it's about 75%, with the unassigned it's 82%. A quotable example:


Sub-regional:
74% Great Britain & Ireland
10% Europe (South)
7% Europe (North and West)
10% Europe (unassigned).

39% East Anglia
8% South Central England
5% South East England
5% Lincolnshire

2.5% Cornwall
2.4% North Yorkshire
2% South England
1.9% Devon
1.6% Central England
1.5% North West England
1.3% South Yorkshire
1.2% Northumbria

equals 71.4%

3.5% unassigned Great Britain & Ireland

equals 74.9%


Whoever did the programming for this site, however, isn't one for mathematics because even cutting a percentage out of Norfolk's Isles, they are still apparently 101% European in total.





Thanks for posting your results, I think 10.5% NW Scotland is the highest number we've seen for that category yet

I was actually expecting higher so this site likely doesn't have a large legitimate Highland reference. If you swapped the SW Scottish & the NW Scottish that would be more accurate. Maybe even lacking in Scotland references as a whole as what is considered their Aberdeenshire region should be higher.


I found that Living DNA gave me the South Asian interesting and more reason to see if I can talk dad into spending some cash. I did say only FTDNA catches it but his South Asian percentage on gedmatch is still anywhere from three to five/six times my own depending on the oracle.

Dad does, after all, happen to have legitimate Traveller ancestry & some actual Romani ancestry on his mother's mother's paternal side. Hence why I had such a problem with the interchangable usage of gypsy, Traveller & Romani on the 110+ page Living DNA post. As I said many a time they're not interchangable and well instead of stealing the post I should have just quoted a blog where the woman mentions her disbelief [she uses a more suitable word in horror mind you] regarding the misalignment of these terms.




- would you mind sharing which parts of Scotland your highland people came from? If you know, of course.

But yes, I know where they came from. I can, as said, trace my lineage back to the early 1600s. Some lines go further. But as for where? Majority is from Inverness-shire, in and around the center of the county. But there's still enough north to tip me northerly. Then coastal central Argyll but not much from the actual islands [I've a single ancestor from the Isle of Skye for example]. The furthest into Ross & Cromarty is Strathpeffer [and no further north] but then their ancestry came from the south not the north.

sktibo
02-09-2017, 06:59 PM
I agree that it doesn't seem to have a very large Highland reference, especially compared to the neighboring regions. I figured that a lot of their samples must be from the west coast and islands so I figured that's what gave you that "large" number in this category. Looking at the POBI map it looks like a large empty space in the middle of Scotland... but IIRC, Living DNA has plans to get more Scottish samples in the future. Here's to hoping anyhow! Thanks for answering my questions.

Calas
02-09-2017, 08:05 PM
I agree that it doesn't seem to have a very large Highland reference, especially compared to the neighboring regions. I figured that a lot of their samples must be from the west coast and islands so I figured that's what gave you that "large" number in this category. Looking at the POBI map it looks like a large empty space in the middle of Scotland... but IIRC, Living DNA has plans to get more Scottish samples in the future. Here's to hoping anyhow! Thanks for answering my questions.

Coastal likely. As I said I have little actual Island ancestry. But I have a bit of ancestry from west of the Loch Ness. When I get rid of this migraine, if I ever do as I get these killer headaches with storms, I'll probably do up a quick little map dotting the regions of largest ancestry.

Regarding that big black hole in central Scotland I'd be rather curious as to how legitimate a reference population they get, if they get anything worth value.

MacUalraig
02-09-2017, 08:30 PM
I think it would be quite challenging to get the reference data that is needed due to the severe depopulation in many areas (and/or their replacement with retired Englishmen!). Old timers might however remember an early Y study by Capelli and he chose the nearest town within a 20 mile radius - for my area of interest he picked Pitlochry which still has an indigenous population. He also used Oban for the west coast.

"For each grid point, we selected
the closest town within a 20-mile radius. Only
towns with 5–20,000 inhabitants were chosen.
Individuals were, with the exception of
one location, then selected if their paternal
grandfather’s birthplace was within a 20-mile
radius of the selected center."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982203003737

Calas
02-09-2017, 08:49 PM
I think it would be quite challenging to get the reference data that is needed due to the severe depopulation in many areas (and/or their replacement with retired Englishmen!).


That's another issue. An important issue that people have to remember. There was a lot of depopulation in many areas and repopulation in those or neighboring areas of Scotland with a quite different sort of person. So the researchers would have to go through with a rather fine-toothed comb to ensure that legitimate Scottish ancestry is being referenced and not using people whose grandparents just happened to have been born there.

sktibo
02-09-2017, 11:34 PM
Coastal likely. As I said I have little actual Island ancestry. But I have a bit of ancestry from west of the Loch Ness. When I get rid of this migraine, if I ever do as I get these killer headaches with storms, I'll probably do up a quick little map dotting the regions of largest ancestry.

Regarding that big black hole in central Scotland I'd be rather curious as to how legitimate a reference population they get, if they get anything worth value.

I would absolutely love it if you would do up a map of your ancestral locations.
I suspected that the western coastal regions would be the ones that would really show up under the NW Scotland category. I'm assuming you mean West coast of Scotland right (If i remember correctly that's where your people mostly come from?)

Calas
02-10-2017, 12:57 AM
https://i.imgsafe.org/d0b1da4786.png

I am and aren't impressed with their Scottish references. The green triangle, which is supposed to be an odd square as I missed that last black circle, is the majority of the NW Scottish. The odd looking orange thing is everything else northerly. Background is early-1600s to mid-1500s. Accurate? Well DNA testing on various sites would prove that yes I am still rather related to locals in the area. The Highland Clearance that is rather problematic... err... let's just say wasn't quite an issue.


Given Living DNA's breakdown I should be a bit different. It's hard to split evenly without going through with a fine tooth comb but likely 70% is considered Highlands category and 30% other northly on Living DNA. Yes I said above dad's ancestry is 60% Highland Scot/Irish and mum's is 40% Scottish. Her Scottish is about 60% Aberdeenshire/Perth and 40% Lowlands.



Aberdeenshire
Aberdeen and the surrounding areas of Northeast Scotland display a unique genetic signature. From hunter gathers to skilled farmers, the lives of the people in what came to be Scotland were changed forever.
(approximately Aberdeenshire, Angus, Fife, Moray areas)

Northwest Scotland
Until the end of the last ice age around 12,000 years ago, what we now know as Northwestern Scotland showcased a vast and freezing landscape, with snow as far as the eye could see. This area has been changed throughout the years by migrations and kingdoms, and has a reputation for its independent, warlike tribes.
(approximately Highland/Argyll and Bute/Stirling/Perth and Kinross areas)

https://i.imgsafe.org/d0f1005bda.png

Not sure what exactly Living DNA is using for their reference points so just did a generic grouping. Red is NW Scottish & blue is Aberdeenshire.

sktibo
02-10-2017, 01:17 AM
Great maps Calas, thanks for posting those. based on the results we've seen I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't collected additional samples from the Scottish areas yet. Would mean NW Scotland only has 34 samples

Jessie
02-10-2017, 01:43 AM
I'll follow A Norfolk L-M20's example.

With one difference, I'm feeling too lazy to post photos of what is shown so I'll just summarize. Well not lazy, tired really. Anyways.


23&me

British & Irish - 79.2%
French & German - 3.5%
Scandinavian - 0.3%
Broad NW - 11.7%
South E. - 1.6%
Iberian - 1.4%
Finn - 1.2%
Ashkenazi 0.4%
Broad European 0.5%
North African 0.1%



FTDNA

77% British Isles
9% Scandinavia
5% East European
4% Southern European

3% Eastern Middle Eastern
2%



Living DNA


Regional:
82% Great Britain & Ireland
8% Europe (North and West)
4% Europe (unassigned).
3% Europe (South)
2% Asia (South)
1% Near East

Sub-regional:

SW Scotland & Northern Ireland - 18.9%
Cumbria - 16.2%
Northwest Scotland - 10.5%
North Wales- 7.8%
Northumbria - 6.2%
Central England - 6.1
Cornwall - 3.9%
Aberdeenshire - 3.2%
South Wales Border - 1.8%
South Wales - 1.2%

6.2% unassigned Great Britain & Ireland


2% Europe (South) - Basque
1% Europe (South) - Northern Italy
4% Europe (North & West) - Scotland and Ireland
3% Europe (North & West) - Scandinavia
1% Europe (North & West) - France
2% Asia (South) - Sindh
1% Near East - Levant

4% Europe (unassigned).



Papertrail wise, I'll just do a rough summary. Family has been, over the years, ranging from low mobility to rather high mobility [Fife to Swansea in 1779 for example].

Paternal
60% Highland Scot/Irish
30% generic mid to southern English
10% Welsh

Maternal
40% Welsh [30% Northern, 10% southern]
20% generic southern English
40% Scottish



Now there are some things that could be more accurate, but the results from Living DNA are not the sort of results I'd personally go "what the heck" about.

Then again the problem for myself I can't say mine is a static ancestry like A Norfolk L-M20 as my ancestry was more mobile than theirs was. I'll say that I go back about the same time frame accuracy, early 1600s, as they do with their East Anglia ancestry so it makes us a good comparable.

Both sides have widely stayed on the western side of England, likely why it says Cumbria second and Northumbria fifth. Yes I know in the what-did-your-3rd-great-grandparents-do post I mentioned some Londoners. Doesn't mean their ancestry was London nor that they stayed there.


As for the Asian South / Near Eastern for Living DNA I am very likely inheriting the majority of that from dad though his DNA ethnicity does not/rarely [FTDNA is the only one to tag it] shows it on these bigger sites. Gedmatch catches it by degrees. The unassigned British/Irish is interesting and I wonder if some of that happens to tie with dad's ancestry itself.

Regarding your father's Highland Scot/Irish ancestry in PoBI there is a Northern Ireland/West Scotland category. From PoBI "The split in the Northern Ireland group, one with the Scottish highlands and the other with the lowlands, suggests association with the people of Dalriada and with the Picts, respectively, a separation of clans that existed around 600 AD." I might have missed it but I haven't seen anyone get this category yet. If someone has please correct me.

Calas
02-10-2017, 02:01 AM
Regarding your father's Highland Scot/Irish ancestry in PoBI there is a Northern Ireland/West Scotland category. From PoBI "The split in the Northern Ireland group, one with the Scottish highlands and the other with the lowlands, suggests association with the people of Dalriada and with the Picts, respectively, a separation of clans that existed around 600 AD." I might have missed it but I haven't seen anyone get this category yet. If someone has please correct me.

But wouldn't that be the SW Scotland & Northern Ireland as Dalriada took in what equates to Argyll & Bute nowadays?

sktibo
02-10-2017, 02:30 AM
But wouldn't that be the SW Scotland & Northern Ireland as Dalriada took in what equates to Argyll & Bute nowadays?

Apparently, SW scotland and north ireland include: Northern Ireland/Dumfries and Galloway/Ayrshire/Lanarkshire and surrounding areas
NW scotland is Highland/Argyll and Bute/Stirling/Perth and Kinross areas
So I don't know what they're talking about when they talk about "The split in the Northern Ireland group, one with the Scottish highlands and the other with the lowlands, suggests association with the people of Dalriada and with the Picts," Perhaps it's a typo or it wasn't edited properly or something.

Jessie
02-10-2017, 02:51 AM
But wouldn't that be the SW Scotland & Northern Ireland as Dalriada took in what equates to Argyll & Bute nowadays?

The SW Scotland and Northern Ireland category in PoBI is Northern Irish Protestants (or Planters) and SW Scotland they are very similar. The Northern Irish/West Scotland category is Catholic NI and Highlanders. LivingDNA will hopefully have more Scottish and also Irish results in the future so things will hopefully get even more refined. I would think they are classifying the Northern Irish/West Scotland category as the Dalriada group and the Northern Irish Protestants/SW Scots groups as Picts. I'm not sure how accurate this is and if you can tell apart the Gael and the Pict genetically. Possibly in the future they might be able to.

http://www.gazlayfamilyhistory.org/graphics/scotland8_alpha.gif

sktibo
02-10-2017, 02:57 AM
I get the impression from the descriptions that Aberdeenshire is mostly Pictish while the NW Scotland is mostly Gael

Jessie
02-10-2017, 03:01 AM
I get the impression from the descriptions that Aberdeenshire is mostly Pictish while the NW Scotland is mostly Gael

It's all very fascinating. Wouldn't some Scottish areas by Brythonic as well? Although some of these language groups don't necessarily translate into different genetics.

sktibo
02-10-2017, 03:17 AM
It's all very fascinating. Wouldn't some Scottish areas by Brythonic as well? Although some of these language groups don't necessarily translate into different genetics.

Yeah. Let me get my descriptions:
Northumbria: "The genetic boundaries that make the Northumbria area distinct today are probably due to the boundaries established by Iron Age tribesmen, Romans, and Anglo Saxons. That this area’s genetic borders match up roughly with the borders of the Votadini tribal confederation is probably no coincidence. The Romans quite literally set the northern boundary of this region in stone when they built Hadrian’s Wall, forever marking out the separation of their Imperial territories with what lay outside. And the Angle Kingdom of Bernicia also corresponds to this region"
Cumbria: Couldn't find a concise paragraph, but the genetic borders appear to be along the same lines as the Brythonic Kingdom of Rheged. This is mostly in England but this cluster is also found in Dumfries and Galloway

I guess Northumbria and Cumbria are the "Brythonic" parts of Scotland, but they're more heavily mixed with Angles than the people in Wales. However, it looks like they're both less Germanic than the South Central English clusters are. SW Scot NI probably also has remnants of the Kingdom of Strathclyde.. However I don't think this was mentioned in the write up for this group. I may have missed it though.

Calas
02-10-2017, 10:22 AM
Picts were to be found from Aberdeenshire to Fife. Gaels covered the Highlands. Brythonic are Galloways.

I don't need this but here's a map for reference.
https://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/9013256_f1024.jpg
http://hubpages.com/education/The-Picts-of-Scotland



The SW Scotland and Northern Ireland category in PoBI is Northern Irish Protestants (or Planters) and SW Scotland they are very similar. The Northern Irish/West Scotland category is Catholic NI and Highlanders.

Jacobitism - Catholic - stronghold Highlands & northeast English/border Scot
Planters - Protestant - in reality Presbyterians, southwest Scotland and border Scot.





I would think they are classifying the Northern Irish/West Scotland category as the Dalriada group and the Northern Irish Protestants/SW Scots groups as Picts. I'm not sure how accurate this is and if you can tell apart the Gael and the Pict genetically. Possibly in the future they might be able to.

Well then if SW Scottish/Irish means Pictish then I'm a Pictish Irishman, Brythonic second, and a Gael third. I'll live.

But regarding the Gaelic vs Pictish idea isn't there some so called "Pictish" Y-DNA marker? I know relatives on mom's mother's side were going on on about it a few years ago.

MacUalraig
02-10-2017, 10:34 AM
The Atlas of Scottish History has some maps of Pictish placenames which extend almost up to where my male line comes from (several in Strath Tay)

http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/published-gazetteers-and-atlases/atlas-scottish-history-1707/atlas-scottish-history-1707/73#zoom=2&lat=2281&lon=1340&layers=B

Jessie
02-10-2017, 10:37 AM
Picts were to be found from Aberdeenshire to Fife. Gaels covered the Highlands. Brythonic are Galloways.

I don't need this but here's a map for reference.
https://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/9013256_f1024.jpg
http://hubpages.com/education/The-Picts-of-Scotland




Jacobitism - Catholic - stronghold Highlands & northeast English/border Scot
Planters - Protestant - in reality Presbyterians, southwest Scotland and border Scot.






Well then if SW Scottish/Irish means Pictish then I'm a Pictish Irishman, Brythonic second, and a Gael third. I'll live.

But regarding the Gaelic vs Pictish idea isn't there some so called "Pictish" Y-DNA marker? I know relatives on mom's mother's side were going on on about it a few years ago.

Yes I remember reading about that a few years ago as well. This is a thread on Anthrogenica.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?825-Pictish-Y-DNA-Marker-Identified-by-BritainsDNA

sktibo
02-10-2017, 08:51 PM
Picts were to be found from Aberdeenshire to Fife. Gaels covered the Highlands. Brythonic are Galloways.

I don't need this but here's a map for reference.
https://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/9013256_f1024.jpg
http://hubpages.com/education/The-Picts-of-Scotland




Jacobitism - Catholic - stronghold Highlands & northeast English/border Scot
Planters - Protestant - in reality Presbyterians, southwest Scotland and border Scot.






Well then if SW Scottish/Irish means Pictish then I'm a Pictish Irishman, Brythonic second, and a Gael third. I'll live.

But regarding the Gaelic vs Pictish idea isn't there some so called "Pictish" Y-DNA marker? I know relatives on mom's mother's side were going on on about it a few years ago.

Now if this map represented the Living DNA zones, I would not expect any NW Scotland and things would be less of a mystery. My people are all from the blue zone or the Norse zone, except one 4th GG but that could easily be accounted for with a zero.

Calas
02-11-2017, 01:25 AM
Now if this map represented the Living DNA zones, I would not expect any NW Scotland and things would be less of a mystery. My people are all from the blue zone or the Norse zone, except one 4th GG but that could easily be accounted for with a zero.

Norse-Gaelics migrated throughout quite a bit of Scotland. The advantage of being the descendants of the conquerors while speaking the local tongue. There is, after all, literally nothing better as a Trojan Horse than such Norse-Gael offspring. If I want to go back far enough [12th century] there is supposedly a few such individuals [Thorfinnson] in the family tree. As for Aberdeenshire there wasn't some invisible barrier around people from there or the Highlands that'd cause them to be electrocuted on the spot if such individuals got within touching distance. A number of Scottish families will have intermarriage, particularly along the borderlines, in their family tree if they look hard enough. More so after the Highland Clearances & Jacobitism because the displaced people just didn't sort of walk off like lemmings.

sktibo
02-11-2017, 04:36 AM
Norse-Gaelics migrated throughout quite a bit of Scotland. The advantage of being the descendants of the conquerors while speaking the local tongue. There is, after all, literally nothing better as a Trojan Horse than such Norse-Gael offspring. If I want to go back far enough [12th century] there is supposedly a few such individuals [Thorfinnson] in the family tree. As for Aberdeenshire there wasn't some invisible barrier around people from there or the Highlands that'd cause them to be electrocuted on the spot if such individuals got within touching distance. A number of Scottish families will have intermarriage, particularly along the borderlines, in their family tree if they look hard enough. More so after the Highland Clearances & Jacobitism because the displaced people just didn't sort of walk off like lemmings.

I just meant that if the living DNA borders were the borders in the map you linked the regions would match the assigned categories. Just a fun little observation.
Edit: I suppose it wouldn't hurt to give you some background info on myself, I've been studying Gaelic culture and history, as well as Scottish Gaelic language, on and off for several years. Currently I'm not working on it and I'm slipping, but I consider Scotland to have the most interesting history of any country. I love that so many people here on this forum share similar interests.. one of my history profs once said "Everybody wants to be a celt" looking at the overwhelming amount of interest upon Scotland, Ireland, and Wales on these forums, I have to agree with her. I'm pretty guilty of that crime myself

Calas
02-11-2017, 10:52 AM
I just meant that if the living DNA borders were the borders in the map you linked the regions would match the assigned categories. Just a fun little observation.

With the movement in Scotland in the last 300 years, I wasn't surprised that such clearcut borders don't exist.



Edit: I suppose it wouldn't hurt to give you some background info on myself

Interesting. I suppose I'll return the favor then.

Though, in a way, my interest in Scotland is nothing more than well me being me.

I do, after all, speak Gaelic fluently. My Scottish relatives/ancestry has been in Scotland for a very long time. What being rather related to a few predominant Highlands Clans, proven by paper trail & DNA. I did mention elsewhere that the Highland Clearances weren't really an issue. They weren't. Most landlords targeted the poorest tenants and being both not among the poor, and higher on the totem pole than tenant, that meant my exact ancestry didn't move. Relatives [dad's 2nd cousin] do still own the country house, and with it the acreage, that belonged to a mutual ancestor and has been in the family since the 16th century as least.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-11-2017, 12:52 PM
Yeah. Let me get my descriptions:
Northumbria: "The genetic boundaries that make the Northumbria area distinct today are probably due to the boundaries established by Iron Age tribesmen, Romans, and Anglo Saxons. That this area’s genetic borders match up roughly with the borders of the Votadini tribal confederation is probably no coincidence. The Romans quite literally set the northern boundary of this region in stone when they built Hadrian’s Wall, forever marking out the separation of their Imperial territories with what lay outside. And the Angle Kingdom of Bernicia also corresponds to this region"
Cumbria: Couldn't find a concise paragraph, but the genetic borders appear to be along the same lines as the Brythonic Kingdom of Rheged. This is mostly in England but this cluster is also found in Dumfries and Galloway

I guess Northumbria and Cumbria are the "Brythonic" parts of Scotland, but they're more heavily mixed with Angles than the people in Wales. However, it looks like they're both less Germanic than the South Central English clusters are. SW Scot NI probably also has remnants of the Kingdom of Strathclyde.. However I don't think this was mentioned in the write up for this group. I may have missed it though.

As I've mentioned in another post I was wondering whether my SW Scottish could have some relationship to Strathclyde Welsh. I must admit I find Scottish history a bit complex. :) I would also add that I get some Cornish which is probably unlikely from my ancestry unless you go back a long way. John
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjbqfaOiojSAhXLAcAKHbV_DfIQFggaMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKingdo m_of_Strathclyde&usg=AFQjCNFCuBRpGWgMaRWeIV010q1r3zSRIA&sig2=E5weDAoxT6Ow0FM_nlXqCg

sktibo
02-11-2017, 09:05 PM
With the movement in Scotland in the last 300 years, I wasn't surprised that such clearcut borders don't exist.




Interesting. I suppose I'll return the favor then.

Though, in a way, my interest in Scotland is nothing more than well me being me.

I do, after all, speak Gaelic fluently. My Scottish relatives/ancestry has been in Scotland for a very long time. What being rather related to a few predominant Highlands Clans, proven by paper trail & DNA. I did mention elsewhere that the Highland Clearances weren't really an issue. They weren't. Most landlords targeted the poorest tenants and being both not among the poor, and higher on the totem pole than tenant, that meant my exact ancestry didn't move. Relatives [dad's 2nd cousin] do still own the country house, and with it the acreage, that belonged to a mutual ancestor and has been in the family since the 16th century as least.

Looking at your ancestry, I'm not surprised that you do. That's very cool. Gaelic certainly seems to be on the rise, at least in North America. I'm not sure how people in Scotland feel about it, but here in Canada it's appealing to many because it's exotic and pretty much everyone who hasn't immigrated recently has Gaelic speaking ancestors if you dig enough. What you've shared about the clearances mostly affecting the poorest is interesting, I was under the impression it affected more than it may have

A Norfolk L-M20
02-11-2017, 09:10 PM
Looking at your ancestry, I'm not surprised that you do. That's very cool. Gaelic certainly seems to be on the rise, at least in North America. I'm not sure how people in Scotland feel about it, but here in Canada it's appealing to many because it's exotic and pretty much everyone who hasn't immigrated recently has Gaelic speaking ancestors if you dig enough. What you've shared about the clearances mostly affecting the poorest is interesting, I was under the impression it affected more than it may have

"The 2011 UK Census showed a total of 57,375 Gaelic speakers in Scotland (1.1% of population over three years old)".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic

Calas
02-11-2017, 11:17 PM
Looking at your ancestry, I'm not surprised that you do. That's very cool. Gaelic certainly seems to be on the rise, at least in North America. I'm not sure how people in Scotland feel about it, but here in Canada it's appealing to many because it's exotic and pretty much everyone who hasn't immigrated recently has Gaelic speaking ancestors if you dig enough.

In a way, Canadian Gaelic is like Québécois is to Metropolitan French in that there are differences. As for the concept that everyone has Gaelic-speaking ancestors that may not be the case. The most predominant Gaelic speakers in Canada were not in the Maritimes like many would believe but in Glengarry, Ontario and are not surprisingly of Highland ancestry.

But as of the 15th century, and you can thank James IV for being the last Scottish king who spoke it thus making the language in a way unfashionable, true Gaelic speakers were becoming more and more widely confined to the western side of the country. Most of the sub-dialects, after all, had died out by the 17th century and by then the Middle-English speaking Scots, a dialect with roots in Lothian and which isn't Gaelic, was the predominant language in the country.



As for how do Scots feel about it? Well obviously I can't speak for the Scottish people.

However, a few years ago I ran into an old chap [96] with the thickest accent I had heard in a long while outside of Scotland. He could have just stepped off the boat and I am sure I looked like a fish out of water with my mouth hanging open when he infomed me he had lived in the Americas for seventy-five years. He was from Fife. We didn't compare Gaelic notes, we couldn't as only his great-grandmother had spoken Gaelic and then not fluently. But that didn't stop us from spending more than a few hours rambling on about this and that. Comparing Scottish traditions, some folklore, and how things had changed, etc.



What you've shared about the clearances mostly affecting the poorest is interesting, I was under the impression it affected more than it may have

A rather common misconception. It likely comes with the idea that the landlords were savages that let their tenants starve, when in reality a number went bankrupt supporting an economy that was failing and failing fast in some areas.

It was typically the poorest targeted because well they aren't making money and thus the freeholder isn't making money either. Business is business in that sense. Replace the poorest with people who might actually make some profit. If it really was wide sweeping then the Highlands would have become a wastelands. Nor would people like Sir. James "The Good" Grant have actually built a town where his tenants/clansmates could live and avoid the Clearances.



What essentially happened was due to the increasing population the Highlands outgrew its breeches. A number of the migrants weren't forced to get lost as rather they did so under their own merit. There's nothing here so why waste away in the countryside? Ever been to the Highlands? It isn't all lush green rolling hills like protrayed on google images. There are areas where farming is difficult and if you don't have the resources it is nearly impossible.

As like the Potato Famine in Ireland people were migrating prior to the Clearances and they were migrating afterward. Like the Famine all the Clearances did was cause an increase in movement but it didn't start it nor cause it.

sktibo
02-12-2017, 12:01 AM
In a way, Canadian Gaelic is like Québécois is to Metropolitan French in that there are differences. As for the concept that everyone has Gaelic-speaking ancestors that may not be the case. The most predominant Gaelic speakers in Canada were not in the Maritimes like many would believe but in Glengarry, Ontario and are not surprisingly of Highland ancestry.

But as of the 15th century, and you can thank James IV for being the last Scottish king who spoke it thus making the language in a way unfashionable, true Gaelic speakers were becoming more and more widely confined to the western side of the country. Most of the sub-dialects, after all, had died out by the 17th century and by then the Middle-English speaking Scots, a dialect with roots in Lothian and which isn't Gaelic, was the predominant language in the country.



As for how do Scots feel about it? Well obviously I can't speak for the Scottish people.

However, a few years ago I ran into an old chap [96] with the thickest accent I had heard in a long while outside of Scotland. He could have just stepped off the boat and I am sure I looked like a fish out of water with my mouth hanging open when he infomed me he had lived in the Americas for seventy-five years. He was from Fife. We didn't compare Gaelic notes, we couldn't as only his great-grandmother had spoken Gaelic and then not fluently. But that didn't stop us from spending more than a few hours rambling on about this and that. Comparing Scottish traditions, some folklore, and how things had changed, etc.




A rather common misconception. It likely comes with the idea that the landlords were savages that let their tenants starve, when in reality a number went bankrupt supporting an economy that was failing and failing fast in some areas.

It was typically the poorest targeted because well they aren't making money and thus the freeholder isn't making money either. Business is business in that sense. Replace the poorest with people who might actually make some profit. If it really was wide sweeping then the Highlands would have become a wastelands. Nor would people like Sir. James "The Good" Grant have actually built a town where his tenants/clansmates could live and avoid the Clearances.



What essentially happened was due to the increasing population the Highlands outgrew its breeches. A number of the migrants weren't forced to get lost as rather they did so under their own merit. There's nothing here so why waste away in the countryside? Ever been to the Highlands? It isn't all lush green rolling hills like protrayed on google images. There are areas where farming is difficult and if you don't have the resources it is nearly impossible.

As like the Potato Famine in Ireland people were migrating prior to the Clearances and they were migrating afterward. Like the Famine all the Clearances did was cause an increase in movement but it didn't start it nor cause it.

I was only in the Highlands briefly once, I was surprised by the large amount of what I'm told was low income housing, and it's definitely not peachy green wonderful farming land. A lot of it was quite depressing. A woman I was speaking to on the train told me, when I told her I was from Canada that "Anyone from Scotland would kill to be able to live in Canada" I believed her without question. Still I hope to go back. I love the history, and the older I get the more I read about it, and the more interesting it would be to go to some of these places.

Ok, in response to
"The most predominant Gaelic speakers in Canada were not in the Maritimes like many would believe but in Glengarry, Ontario and are not surprisingly of Highland ancestry."
I'm not totally sure where you got this info from, and I'm not sure it's correct. The Maritime provinces had the majority of Gaelic speaking folk in Canada for a good while. I've read about Glengarry online, apparently it still has ties to Gaelic culture and language, yet I so far have not spoken to or met anyone from there, or even from Ontario in the Gaelic circles I've been involved in. Every individual I've come across who speaks "Canadian Gaelic" (now this term is kind of funny, wikipedia indicates that we have some kind of singular Canadian dialect of it, we don't.) is from Nova Scotia, and it's almost always some tie to Baddeck in Cape Breton. The dialects vary a bit and correspond to where the person in question's ancestors came from. The unifying feature appears to be that they hold on to older features of the language. There's some fierce opposition to this dropping of the acute accent we see in mainstream Scottish school taught Gaelic, although, I've seen opposition to that on the Scottish side of things too. Now, I should add that some of the Nova Scotian Gaelic speakers today are actually directly imported from Scotland.
Gaelic was widely spoken in Nova Scotia and PEI up until around 1900, and I'm told by a native from that area that one of the largest reasons for it's decline was actually that it became unfashionable. People would pretend that they didn't remember how to speak it.

Calas
02-12-2017, 12:59 AM
I was only in the Highlands briefly once, I was surprised by the large amount of what I'm told was low income housing, and it's definitely not peachy green wonderful farming land. A lot of it was quite depressing. A woman I was speaking to on the train told me, when I told her I was from Canada that "Anyone from Scotland would kill to be able to live in Canada" I believed her without question. Still I hope to go back. I love the history, and the older I get the more I read about it, and the more interesting it would be to go to some of these places.

Saying you were in the Highlands doesn't tell me where. It isn't all the same. Your train buddy is amusing. I have a few relatives, all of Scottish ancestry, in Canada. Can't say there was any killing. In fact, a cousin of dad's keeps saying how he had no say going to Canada as he was a toddler.



Ok, in response to
"The most predominant Gaelic speakers in Canada were not in the Maritimes like many would believe but in Glengarry, Ontario and are not surprisingly of Highland ancestry."
I'm not totally sure where you got this info from, and I'm not sure it's correct. The Maritime provinces had the majority of Gaelic speaking folk in Canada for a good while. I've read about Glengarry online, apparently it still has ties to Gaelic culture and language, yet I so far have not spoken to or met anyone from there, or even from Ontario in the Gaelic circles I've been involved in. Every individual I've come across who speaks "Canadian Gaelic" (now this term is kind of funny, wikipedia indicates that we have some kind of singular Canadian dialect of it, we don't.) is from Nova Scotia, and it's almost always some tie to Baddeck in Cape Breton. The dialects vary a bit and correspond to where the person in question's ancestors came from. The unifying feature appears to be that they hold on to older features of the language. There's some fierce opposition to this dropping of the acute accent we see in mainstream Scottish school taught Gaelic, although, I've seen opposition to that on the Scottish side of things too. Now, I should add that some of the Nova Scotian Gaelic speakers today are actually directly imported from Scotland.
Gaelic was widely spoken in Nova Scotia and PEI up until around 1900, and I'm told by a native from that area that one of the largest reasons for it's decline was actually that it became unfashionable. People would pretend that they didn't remember how to speak it.

Glengarry does have people who speak Gaelic, they just "don't remember how to speak it".

As for the rest I spend half my time between Canada, America and England myself. I happen to avoid the "Gaelic" circles myself because, as I indicated about the old chap from Fife, learning a language doesn't mean you are learning the culture. I've encountered a number of Scottish Canadians who just don't have a clue about what I am talking about if I go beyond their knowledge base gleaned from the internet.

Regarding Nova Scotia most of those Gaelic speakers have roots in Highland ancestry. There is quite a bit of folklore and superstition in Nova Scotia that you won't find just willy nilly around Scotland but which has deep ties in the Highlands. I was aiming that commentary more at your belief anyone of Scottish root is of Gaelic speaking ancestry. It isn't a given. It'd be like saying everyone from London is a Cockney.

sktibo
02-12-2017, 03:01 AM
Saying you were in the Highlands doesn't tell me where. It isn't all the same. Your train buddy is amusing. I have a few relatives, all of Scottish ancestry, in Canada. Can't say there was any killing. In fact, a cousin of dad's keeps saying how he had no say going to Canada as he was a toddler.

Train ride from Edinburgh to Inverness was where. I was fortunate to end up sitting with a nice lady who was willing to chat with me (if you saw how ugly I am you'd know why!). There's a lot of Scottish people here, all of them talk a lot about how much better it is in Canada than Scotland. Of course, they are biased. I appreciate your input on this. Basically, I was agreeing with your point that "Scotland isn't all google earth images", while some of it was quite beautiful, some of it was also not so much. Just threw my little experience in there as well.


Glengarry does have people who speak Gaelic, they just "don't remember how to speak it".

Interesting, do you mean this in the way that they intentionally forgot how to speak Gaelic because they don't see it as being fashionable? How is it in Glengarry, I've not been.. worth a visit?


As for the rest I spend half my time between Canada, America and England myself. I happen to avoid the "Gaelic" circles myself because, as I indicated about the old chap from Fife, learning a language doesn't mean you are learning the culture. I've encountered a number of Scottish Canadians who just don't have a clue about what I am talking about if I go beyond their knowledge base gleaned from the internet.

While many anthropologists would argue this point of yours (many would say language and culture are the same, you learn both when you learn the language) I'm inclined to agree with you on this. Many Scottish Canadians won't have a clue, then again, a lot of Scottish Canadians aren't even aware that they have Scottish heritage, or sometimes, even that their surname is Scottish.


Regarding Nova Scotia most of those Gaelic speakers have roots in Highland ancestry. There is quite a bit of folklore and superstition in Nova Scotia that you won't find just willy nilly around Scotland but which has deep ties in the Highlands. I was aiming that commentary more at your belief anyone of Scottish root is of Gaelic speaking ancestry. It isn't a given. It'd be like saying everyone from London is a Cockney.

That's quite an extreme interpretation of what I actually said, especially referring to it as a "belief". I said that most people (white, and not recent immigrants to Canada) probably have ancestors who spoke Gaelic if they dig deep enough, I did not say that "anyone of Scottish root is of Gaelic speaking ancestry." What I meant by this is that Scotland was a primarily Gaelic speaking area when the country/kingdom was formed. So chances are, if you can dig 1000+ years of Ancestry from Scotland, you can probably dig up someone who at one time, spoke Gaelic. Also, if say, you have a surname like MacDonald, which is of course ridiculously common, chances are someone from your family tree spoke it. Of course, if you can only dig to say, 1600, you are definitely not guaranteed to find anyone in your line who spoke Gaelic.

As I hope you're now able to tell, we haven't actually disagreed on very many of the points we have been discussing, and may I add, I am quite enjoying talking about this with you.

Calas
02-12-2017, 10:39 AM
Train ride from Edinburgh to Inverness was where. I was fortunate to end up sitting with a nice lady who was willing to chat with me (if you saw how ugly I am you'd know why!). There's a lot of Scottish people here, all of them talk a lot about how much better it is in Canada than Scotland. Of course, they are biased. I appreciate your input on this. Basically, I was agreeing with your point that "Scotland isn't all google earth images", while some of it was quite beautiful, some of it was also not so much. Just threw my little experience in there as well.

Ugly? Guess you have never heard the saying how beauty is skin deep but it is ugly which cuts straight to the bone. Visual appearances mean utterly nothing to me.




Interesting, do you mean this in the way that they intentionally forgot how to speak Gaelic because they don't see it as being fashionable? How is it in Glengarry, I've not been.. worth a visit?

As like it became unfashionable in other places.




While many anthropologists would argue this point of yours (many would say language and culture are the same, you learn both when you learn the language) I'm inclined to agree with you on this. Many Scottish Canadians won't have a clue, then again, a lot of Scottish Canadians aren't even aware that they have Scottish heritage, or sometimes, even that their surname is Scottish.

Of course they would. Research sounds nice on paper but when exposed to what is reality there are times when it isn't worth two pence. There was a blog, a while ago, for example written by some linguistic "researcher" about a country and its dialects. I had great fun reading the comments by people actually from that country basically telling the chap to go back to kindergarten.

Which is why I find such anthropologists amusing. Many people in Canada know how to speak French for example, so does that mean they know all there is to know about France?




That's quite an extreme interpretation of what I actually said, especially referring to it as a "belief". I said that most people (white, and not recent immigrants to Canada) probably have ancestors who spoke Gaelic if they dig deep enough, I did not say that "anyone of Scottish root is of Gaelic speaking ancestry." What I meant by this is that Scotland was a primarily Gaelic speaking area when the country/kingdom was formed. So chances are, if you can dig 1000+ years of Ancestry from Scotland, you can probably dig up someone who at one time, spoke Gaelic. Also, if say, you have a surname like MacDonald, which is of course ridiculously common, chances are someone from your family tree spoke it.

As I hope you're now able to tell, we haven't actually disagreed on very many of the points we have been discussing, and may I add, I am quite enjoying talking about this with you.

Yes it has been entertaining.


MacDonald? Why because it belongs to a Highland clan? There's actually far more than just MacDonald attached to the Donald clan.

There's also the fact you missed a vital point I said earlier. By the 15th century, not the 16th century, most Gaelic speakers were to be found on the western side of the country. Your ancestry, as you said yourself, is mostly from Aberdeenshire & Nordic regions. The people from the Nordic northern Highland areas may have spoken Gaelic. The ones from Aberdeenshire may have spoken Gaelic but it would have been less likely.



If course, if you can only dig to say, 1600, you are definitely not guaranteed to find anyone in your line who spoke Gaelic.

Then if that is the case you shouldn't be so surprised by Living DNA not having clear cut borders with respect to their populations. I mean Gaelic was still present in some areas of Aberdeenshire up until this century. Why? A preceived local dialect supported by migrants from the Highlands that's why.

sktibo
02-12-2017, 05:58 PM
Ugly? Guess you have never heard the saying how beauty is skin deep but it is ugly which cuts straight to the bone. Visual appearances mean utterly nothing to me.





As like it became unfashionable in other places.





Of course they would. Research sounds nice on paper but when exposed to what is reality there are times when it isn't worth two pence. There was a blog, a while ago, for example written by some linguistic "researcher" about a country and its dialects. I had great fun reading the comments by people actually from that country basically telling the chap to go back to kindergarten.

Which is why I find such anthropologists amusing. Many people in Canada know how to speak French for example, so does that mean they know all there is to know about France?





Yes it has been entertaining.


MacDonald? Why because it belongs to a Highland clan? There's actually far more than just MacDonald attached to the Donald clan.

There's also the fact you missed a vital point I said earlier. By the 15th century, not the 16th century, most Gaelic speakers were to be found on the western side of the country. Your ancestry, as you said yourself, is mostly from Aberdeenshire & Nordic regions. The people from the Nordic northern Highland areas may have spoken Gaelic. The ones from Aberdeenshire may have spoken Gaelic but it would have been less likely.




Then if that is the case you shouldn't be so surprised by Living DNA not having clear cut borders with respect to their populations. I mean Gaelic was still present in some areas of Aberdeenshire up until this century. Why? A preceived local dialect supported by migrants from the Highlands that's why.

Hey, this is too literal. I'm trying make you laugh with comments about my appearance, that's supposed to be a joke. Like I said before about the borders and the map: it's just a fun observation, I wasn't surprised that they don't match the borders.

My Ancestry is specifically from lochearnhead, kilmuir (not Skye) Orkney, Edinburgh, stirling, and I think, Perth. Don't actually have any from Aberdeenshire. What I think is, Aberdeenshire is the closest region to NW Scotland, and it has more samples. Not too crazy if these people in the middle of the country landed in the Aberdeenshire camp, and even if my parents did have some NW Scotland, it could have easily not been passed on to me.

Calas
02-12-2017, 10:36 PM
Hey, this is too literal. I'm trying make you laugh with comments about my appearance, that's supposed to be a joke.

Oh, I know it was.

But you see there are two things I inherited from my great-grandfather. The first would be his unruly hair. And the second would be his rather wicked, quirky even, sense of humour. Unfortunately, for my American friends & colleagues that is, if it isn't dry British humour, the more ironic or satirical the better, I just don't find it funny. My own sense of humour is what one friend once dubbed the "breakfast bowl of sarcasm". I have a rather dry sense of humour. I just don't use it on forums like this as well it more often than not leads to misunderstandings than laughs.

sktibo
02-12-2017, 11:00 PM
Oh, I know it was.

But you see there are two things I inherited from my great-grandfather. The first would be his unruly hair. And the second would be his rather wicked, quirky even, sense of humour. Unfortunately, for my American friends & colleagues that is, if it isn't dry British humour, the more ironic or satirical the better, I just don't find it funny. My own sense of humour is what one friend once dubbed the "breakfast bowl of sarcasm". I have a rather dry sense of humour. I just don't use it on forums like this as well it more often than not leads to misunderstandings than laughs.




You said earlier & I quote


That "blue area" is mostly Aberdeenshire. It carries into Angus, Fife & Perthshire. But the majority belongs to Aberdeenshire.


Besides that you seem to continually ignore something vital. Scotland is a country that has had plenty of movement. I wouldn't even dream, nor have nightmares, where Scotland now from a genetic/ethnic standpoint is comparable to the Scotland of five hundred years ago. People moved. A lot.

Haha, I've got that curly hair "problem" too. The kind where no strand grows in the same direction, and wearing hats can hurt?

As for the ancestors if mine, it's a perfectly fine theory that they originated in the east and ended up in the middle too. Not disagreeing about there being lots of movement. It's not something I can disprove... After all, I can only trace em to the 1700's. Ultimately, if living DNA completes it's Scottish DNA project, perhaps I'll know then

A Norfolk L-M20
02-13-2017, 12:34 AM
What we really need to do, is dig up several hundred bodies from around 250 - 300 years ago! I don't think though, that communities, authorities, the public, or the churches are going to support this.

chelle
02-13-2017, 01:46 AM
What we really need to do, is dig up several hundred bodies from around 250 - 300 years ago! I don't think though, that communities, authorities, the public, or the churches are going to support this.

I was just discussing that with my husband the other day. I said if we want real accurate results we need more older samples and we need to do it now while there still dna to be tested. I was telling him about some of the projects like trying to solve the Rollo mystery and King Richard's remains in the Tesco parking lot or whichever type lot it was. It is a shame these things only seem to get signed off on when it is somebody famous.

sktibo
02-13-2017, 01:48 AM
What we really need to do, is dig up several hundred bodies from around 250 - 300 years ago! I don't think though, that communities, authorities, the public, or the churches are going to support this.

We DNA lovers can only hope

Calas
02-13-2017, 02:34 AM
What we really need to do, is dig up several hundred bodies from around 250 - 300 years ago! I don't think though, that communities, authorities, the public, or the churches are going to support this.

Course they won't. It would be rather disrespectful for one thing. Not to mention to do it properly is not the cost of a spade shovel.

There's no problem with digging up your own ancestors and doing some DNA testing. But doing it en mass? The locals will likely be chasing the researchers out of town faster than they can say boo.

Calas
02-13-2017, 02:44 AM
Haha, I've got that curly hair "problem" too. The kind where no strand grows in the same direction, and wearing hats can hurt?

:ranger:
You know few people would actually call my hair curly. It is, after all, wavy at best.

More I have as said unruly hair, unkempt, aka "bedhead". Doesn't matter what I do with it, it constantly looks like the only "brush" it knows is my fingers. Probably doesn't help that I have, as my hairdresser has told me time & time again, the sort of [hair] volume that many women would kill to possess. Anything shorter than collar length and it's just a mess.