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vettor
02-11-2017, 07:19 PM
Map below only is for the T1a2 branch of the T ydna ................I excluded all the ones less than 2000 years old...........they are 2 x Saudi -Bahrain, 14 x USA and 2 x Caribbean


http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/t1a2%202000y_zpscghgypxp.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/t1a2%202000y_zpscghgypxp.jpg.html)


With none in the levant or africa ...............the south-italy and Spain ones must have come down from the north instead of by sea

vettor
03-26-2017, 05:35 PM
In regards to T1a2 ( L131 group )

The south-tyrol/trentino region of alpine Italy have only T1a2 people as well as Ydna L1a and L1b


all the K-M9 in Luserna Cimbrians are ydna L1b

all the K-M9 in Sole Valley are ydna T-L131

There is a L1a ydna and a T-L131 in Lessinia Cimbrians

all the K-M9 in Fiemme Valley are all L1a ydna

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704

I have not checked the Adige , Fassa and Badia tabs K-M9 in File S1 ( XLS ) for what they represent

Salento
05-30-2017, 07:28 PM
I'm T CTS8862 ( Negative for PAGES00113 and Y17493 )
All Parents and Grandparents from Puglia Italy

vettor
05-30-2017, 09:07 PM
I'm T CTS8862 ( Negative for PAGES00113 and Y17493 )
All Parents and Grandparents from Puglia Italy

Is your surname . Benedetto ?

Salento
05-30-2017, 09:36 PM
No, is Greco

vettor
05-31-2017, 01:13 AM
No, is Greco
Thanks. Myself and a spaniard named fandora where checking out three T1a2. With names Benedetto. Greco and goldin.
You then sit with fandora as per the T project. Iirc a levy surname from York England as well

vettor
05-31-2017, 06:14 PM
Thanks. Myself and a spaniard named fandora where checking out three T1a2. With names Benedetto. Greco and goldin.
You then sit with fandora as per the T project. Iirc a levy surname from York England as well

I meant Levi Lee from England.............spoke to recent descendant and he noted that his ancestor was a Bricklayer , his father name was george

Salento
05-31-2017, 09:16 PM
Some Locals in the South of Puglia tell Stories indicating that The Messapi of Puglia and The Venitian were members of the same Tribe in Illyria before migrating in to Italy more or less 3000 years ago.
Propably are just old Legends.

vettor
05-31-2017, 09:28 PM
Some Locals in the South of Puglia tell Stories indicating that The Messapi of Puglia and The Venitian were members of the same Tribe in Illyria before migrating in to Italy more or less 3000 years ago.
Propably are just old Legends.

The legend also states the messapii are related to the illyrian liburnians who also ruled corfu up to 700bc

Armend
11-26-2017, 08:22 PM
Dear Vettor,

I was recently tested in YSEQ and according to the calculator NEVGEN i belong to the T-L131 Y -DNA. However I do not know where can I clasify more deeply my results based on STR markers. I come from Kosovo (Albanian) and this Haplogroup seems to be an outlayer here. I am second to be tested with this haplgroup. The other one belong to CTS54. Could you please help me to clasify my data? If yes, then I can send you my STR markers from YSEQ.

Thank you very much!
Armend

vettor
12-08-2017, 08:42 PM
Dear Vettor,

I was recently tested in YSEQ and according to the calculator NEVGEN i belong to the T-L131 Y -DNA. However I do not know where can I clasify more deeply my results based on STR markers. I come from Kosovo (Albanian) and this Haplogroup seems to be an outlayer here. I am second to be tested with this haplgroup. The other one belong to CTS54. Could you please help me to clasify my data? If yes, then I can send you my STR markers from YSEQ.

Thank you very much!
Armend

Did you test with Ftdna?

if not..........try to match with
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

start only from the purple headed groups

Armend
12-10-2017, 11:08 PM
It seems that I would be near this Predicted L446+ group

Armend
12-10-2017, 11:13 PM
Another person from my area was tested in Geno 2 as T1a-L131>CTS54>CTS8862.

vettor
12-10-2017, 11:44 PM
It seems that I would be near this Predicted L446+ group

Is this the group with the three Germans or
The group with one german and two romanians?

Armend
12-11-2017, 11:09 AM
Actually there were 2 groups, one 446 predicted on the last page and the other one 446 in the second page. I am note familiar with these things, but i think one Romanian from Bukovina (Szekler), one Irish, one with a name Todorov (Unknown) and one Malosco from Italy are more similar with my markers.

Armend
12-11-2017, 11:20 AM
13,23,13,10,14-16,11,12,11,13,13,29,17,9-9,11,12,26,15,19,34,11-14-16-16,11,10,23-25,15,13,17,18,35-35,12,9,

These are my markers (37) same order as in FTDNA

Levin
02-03-2018, 12:59 AM
Hi,
I am Levin and I live in Italy. Yesterday I had the result of the test dna geno 2.0 that I immediately transferred to Family Tree.My results are these:

YDNA - T L446
MtDNA - J1b1a3

Immediately afterwards I joined the "T - Y Haplogroup" FTgroup. In your experience, what other tests should I take to deepen the Y-chromosome test? I would like to understand better the origins of my paternal line (specifically I would like to understand if my ancestors arrived in Italy in the Neolithic or with the Greek invasions of the VIII century BC) and verify the existence of genetic relatives.

Thank you
Levin

vettor
02-03-2018, 03:57 AM
Hi,
I am Levin and I live in Italy. Yesterday I had the result of the test dna geno 2.0 that I immediately transferred to Family Tree.My results are these:

YDNA - T L446
MtDNA - J1b1a3

Immediately afterwards I joined the "T - Y Haplogroup" FTgroup. In your experience, what other tests should I take to deepen the Y-chromosome test? I would like to understand better the origins of my paternal line (specifically I would like to understand if my ancestors arrived in Italy in the Neolithic or with the Greek invasions of the VIII century BC) and verify the existence of genetic relatives.

Thank you
Levin

Hi

I am part of T1a2 branch which has L446 .............so your branch is also T1a2 ( it was once called T1b)

Check wiki site for T-M184 to get a brief understanding of T

In Italy the major areas ( not in any order and including the very recent italian paper) abruzzo, volterra-tuscany, marche, vicenza-veneto, sicily, south-tyrol -trentino, alpine italy ......
4% appeared in the recent paper in volterra ( etruscan ) and 5% in Vicenza ( marostica, thiene and schio areas)......I still have not fully read the paper though

Salento
02-04-2018, 03:32 PM
I’m assuming you’re thinking about this:
Y T in Italy
https://i.imgur.com/PA0UmPQ_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

vettor
02-04-2018, 06:27 PM
I’m assuming you’re thinking about this:
Y T in Italy
https://i.imgur.com/PA0UmPQ_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://s20.postimg.org/xhiyjfutp/T_in_italy.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

From the recent paper

Are you in abruzzo area? ..........as there is 20% of T

In reagrds to this , some are Haplogroup LT .............seems to be a mix of Saminites and south Picene people ........both speaking a similar sabellic language

the 7.9% Marche Picene are histri/liburnian illyrian people from early iron age.

In regards to mr. Levin from Empoli ..........the volterra and the LaSpezia to Massa are all in or close to empoli

Salento
02-04-2018, 08:44 PM
@ vettor
In case you’re asking if I’m Abruzzese, The Answer is No.
I’m Apulian ( 2.0% Y T ), and Family is about 8 miles away from a Town of the Apulia/Grecia Salentina ( 3.7% Y T ).

vettor
03-19-2018, 05:48 PM
looking at the Semagyl site which seems to be run by Yfull persons , the below map is my line............the USA matches come from 17th century UK and 20th century Italy.............my closest matches are from belgium and germany

https://s20.postimg.org/p7crsblil/my_matches_mar18.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/5cqq676ax/)

@salento....your messapic ( illyrian ) line is present in adriatic south italy

vettor
08-22-2018, 05:47 AM
my Ydna line and where it began by phlogeographer site

https://s20.postimg.cc/4lvo0bftp/pylo.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/gaznoa6s9/)

Origin of T1a2 = Mardin East Turkey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardin


My SNP of Z19945 origin = Porrentruy Switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porrentruy

vettor
03-02-2019, 09:54 PM
CL23 sample

is
T1a2- CTS933

Blonde hair

Blue/Grey eyes

Pale skin colour

Dibran
06-27-2019, 04:33 PM
Is T1a2a(P322) common/found in Lebanese Druze?

A friend of mine tested ancestry and using morely his most likely clade was T1a2a(P322). Any info on this line?

vettor
06-27-2019, 06:33 PM
Is T1a2a(P322) common/found in Lebanese Druze?

A friend of mine tested ancestry and using morely his most likely clade was T1a2a(P322). Any info on this line?

I don't pay that much attention to other branches of T or even my branch which is not directly my line, so, for what its worth......

P322 I seem to recall is mostly with germans and kurds

I never seen T1a2 south of black sea turkey or Chios island Greece ( although I think some would be in north africa )...............have seen in armenia , caspian sea Iran ......central Asia

Lemba people in South Africa

bulgaria, kosovo, dalmatia, italy, germany UK, Spain.....all europe .............even iceland

Somali and east african T seem in majority to be T1a1 branch

persian gulf area seem in majority to be T1a3 branch............although the oldest of this branch was found in kazaks

Basically......I think its a very very old hunter group and should be nearly everywhere

Westland
10-28-2020, 12:43 AM
Hi,
I am Levin and I live in Italy. Yesterday I had the result of the test dna geno 2.0 that I immediately transferred to Family Tree.My results are these:

YDNA - T L446
MtDNA - J1b1a3

Immediately afterwards I joined the "T - Y Haplogroup" FTgroup. In your experience, what other tests should I take to deepen the Y-chromosome test? I would like to understand better the origins of my paternal line (specifically I would like to understand if my ancestors arrived in Italy in the Neolithic or with the Greek invasions of the VIII century BC) and verify the existence of genetic relatives.

Thank you
Levin

I belong to T1a3. I found there is also a Han Chinese tested positive for T1a2-L446

vettor
10-30-2020, 07:56 PM
Another belgium person in my branch

T-Z19945 3100 (38002400) Nicolas Vironet, b. 1818, d. 1874 Belgium

vettor
10-31-2020, 02:28 AM
Another belgium person in my branch

T-Z19945 3100 (38002400) Nicolas Vironet, b. 1818, d. 1874 Belgium

fabricated name .....created in orphanage....... see notes attached in link

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/210952969/nicolas-vironet

vettor
11-05-2020, 04:33 PM
Another T1a2 member from Belgium was found, a new split from CTS1848

T-Z19950 > T-CTS1848>T-Z19945 Jean Tillieux/Belgium

T1a2-Z19945 is now a major hub with so many branches splitting off from it

There was once a group called the Rhenish Group which had many T people .....this group ran from Belgium and Saarland Germany to lake Constance Switzerland......taking in also Lorraine and Alsace france and Hesse and swabian germany

Paphlagonia
04-24-2021, 02:45 PM
Dear paternal Y-DNA T1a2b Members;

My paternal Y-DNA is also T1a2b. I live in Turkey, and my paternal and maternal origins are from Paphlagonia.
When I read the forum messages I saw that there are T1a2bs from Italy.

1. As I read from the historical sources Enetians of Pahplagonia founded Venetia. Can it explain the shared origin?
https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...aphlagonia.htm

2.Bucellarian Theme was created around the middle of the 8th century, comprising most of the ancient region of Paphlagonia and parts of Galatia and Phrygia.The name of the theme derives from the late Roman Bucellarii, elite cavalry troops of Gothic or Roman origin, often found as privately recruited bodyguard troops.(Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucellarian_Theme)
Paplagonia had been a part of Roman and later East Roman Empire. Roman Empire had legionnaires from different areas. Can this explain the shared origin? (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionary)

3.Most gladiators were purchased from slave markets from every land of Roman Empire. Can this explain the shared origin?

4.Where was our first original grandfather born? And how his sons migrated/or taken to other places?

5.This is the most likely scenario for me: Phoenecians carried Levantine T1a2b while they traveled by their ships towards the Mediterrean and Black Sea costs.

Haplogroub T is emerging as a mutation from K 45-35 000 years ago. Where it occurs: Levante. Levante, in Italian means the place where the sun rises. Italians called the lands east of them as levante. Levantines are a community born in the Middle East in today's sense. Phoenician Levantine sailors colonized and spread wherever they went in their ships. I think the Levantine Phoenician descendants of our Grandfather T were scattered in the Western Mediterranean by sea voyage. Some of them remained in the Middle East.

Our T cousins ​​also went to Europe. They are mostly found in southwestern Europe, although in a small proportion in every European country. They live in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece and Cyprus in Europe. Their busiest places are Cadiz and Ibiza on the Iberian peninsula in Europe. Paternal T's subgroup T1a2b also points to my closest cousins. They also live in the north east of Italy and in the Eastern Alps.

The most common populations in the Middle East; Syriac community, Jewish Kurdish, Jewish Iranian communities and Sasun Armenians. In other words, we carry the levantine genes mixed with Syriac and Sasun Armenians, too.



Some Sources:

Afezolli D, Allen BM, Hepworth JE, Andrew JK. Unearthing the Roots of Venice: Relics to DNA. https://core.ac.uk/reader/212968370

Avila C. Exploring the history of venice: Relics, records, and relations.

Reynolds, Beatrice. "Brum And Perotti Present A Greek Historian." Bibliotheque d'humanisme et Renaissance 16, no. 1 (1954): 108-118.

Karpov S. The Black Sea region, before and after the Fourth Crusade. Urbs capta: The Fourth Crusade and its Consequences; La IVe Croisade et ses consequences. 2005:288-9.

Carlson E, Nwaobasi F, Saxena S, Truchanovicius V. Venice: Genesis of the City and its People (Doctoral dissertation, Worcester Polytechnic Institute).

Bartusis MC. The late Byzantine army: arms and society, 1204-1453. University of Pennsylvania Press; 1997.



Here is a link and paragraph of a book of Phoenician settlements. As I mentioned above I mostly think that our T1a2b grandparents voyaged everywhere during Phonecian colonisations.

"The further progress of the Phoenician settlements northward into the Propontis and the Euxine is a point whereon different opinions may be entertained. Pronectus, on the Bithynian, and Amastris, on the Paphlagonian coast, have been numbered among the colonies of the Phoenicians by some;[578] while others have gone so far as to ascribe to them the colonisation of the entire countries of Bithynia, Mariandynia, and Paphlagonia.[579] The story of the Argonauts may fairly be held to show[580] that Phoenician enterprise early penetrated into the stormy and inhospitable sea which washes Asia Minor upon the north, and even reached its deepest eastern recess; but it is one thing to sail into seas, and, landing where the natives seem friendly, to traffic with the dwellers on them—*it is quite another thing to attempt a permanent occupation of portions of their coasts. To do so often provokes hostility, and puts a stop to trade instead of encouraging it. The Phoenicians may have been content to draw their native products from the barbarous tribes of Northern Asia Minor and Western Thrace—*nay, even of Southern Scythia—*without risking the collisions that might have followed the establishment of settlements.
As with the Black Sea, so with the Adriatic, the commercial advantages were not sufficient to tempt the Phoenicians to colonise. From Crete and Cythera they sent their gaze afar, and fixed it midway in the Mediterranean, at the western extremity of the eastern basin, on the shores of Sicily, and the vast projection from the coast of North Africa which goes forth to meet them. They knew the harbourless character of the African coast west of Egypt, and the dangers of the Lesser and Greater Syrtes. They knew the fertility of the Tunisian projection, the excellence of its harbours, and the prolificness of the large island that lay directly opposite. "

http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/2331/53.html#gsc.tab=0

My father's hometown Devrek, whose ancient name is Dadybra (AD 300 - AD 640) acording to the Digital Atlas of the Roman Empire, is on a point between historical Paphlagonia and Mariandynia.


You may read the following links for the history of Mariandynia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariandyni
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...mariandyni-geo
https://pleiades.stoa.org/places/844903



Kind Regards

manesh
04-24-2021, 06:28 PM
Dear paternal Y-DNA T1a2b Members;

My paternal Y-DNA is also T1a2b. I live in Turkey, and my paternal and maternal origins are from Paphlagonia.
When I read the forum messages I saw that there are T1a2bs from Italy.

1. As I read from the historical sources Enetians of Pahplagonia founded Venetia. Can it explain the shared origin?
https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...aphlagonia.htm

2.Bucellarian Theme was created around the middle of the 8th century, comprising most of the ancient region of Paphlagonia and parts of Galatia and Phrygia.The name of the theme derives from the late Roman Bucellarii, elite cavalry troops of Gothic or Roman origin, often found as privately recruited bodyguard troops.(Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucellarian_Theme)
Paplagonia had been a part of Roman and later East Roman Empire. Roman Empire had legionnaires from different areas. Can this explain the shared origin? (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionary)

3.Most gladiators were purchased from slave markets from every land of Roman Empire. Can this explain the shared origin?

4.Where was our first original grandfather born? And how his sons migrated/or taken to other places?

5.This is the most likely scenario for me: Phoenecians carried Levantine T1a2b while they traveled by their ships towards the Mediterrean and Black Sea costs.

Haplogroub T is emerging as a mutation from K 45-35 000 years ago. Where it occurs: Levante. Levante, in Italian means the place where the sun rises. Italians called the lands east of them as levante. Levantines are a community born in the Middle East in today's sense. Phoenician Levantine sailors colonized and spread wherever they went in their ships. I think the Levantine Phoenician descendants of our Grandfather T were scattered in the Western Mediterranean by sea voyage. Some of them remained in the Middle East.

Our T cousins ​​also went to Europe. They are mostly found in southwestern Europe, although in a small proportion in every European country. They live in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece and Cyprus in Europe. Their busiest places are Cadiz and Ibiza on the Iberian peninsula in Europe. Paternal T's subgroup T1a2b also points to my closest cousins. They also live in the north east of Italy and in the Eastern Alps.

The most common populations in the Middle East; Syriac community, Jewish Kurdish, Jewish Iranian communities and Sasun Armenians. In other words, we carry the levantine genes mixed with Syriac and Sasun Armenians, too.



Some Sources:

Afezolli D, Allen BM, Hepworth JE, Andrew JK. Unearthing the Roots of Venice: Relics to DNA. https://core.ac.uk/reader/212968370

Avila C. Exploring the history of venice: Relics, records, and relations.

Reynolds, Beatrice. "Brum And Perotti Present A Greek Historian." Bibliotheque d'humanisme et Renaissance 16, no. 1 (1954): 108-118.

Karpov S. The Black Sea region, before and after the Fourth Crusade. Urbs capta: The Fourth Crusade and its Consequences; La IVe Croisade et ses consequences. 2005:288-9.

Carlson E, Nwaobasi F, Saxena S, Truchanovicius V. Venice: Genesis of the City and its People (Doctoral dissertation, Worcester Polytechnic Institute).

Bartusis MC. The late Byzantine army: arms and society, 1204-1453. University of Pennsylvania Press; 1997.



Here is a link and paragraph of a book of Phoenician settlements. As I mentioned above I mostly think that our T1a2b grandparents voyaged everywhere during Phonecian colonisations.

"The further progress of the Phoenician settlements northward into the Propontis and the Euxine is a point whereon different opinions may be entertained. Pronectus, on the Bithynian, and Amastris, on the Paphlagonian coast, have been numbered among the colonies of the Phoenicians by some;[578] while others have gone so far as to ascribe to them the colonisation of the entire countries of Bithynia, Mariandynia, and Paphlagonia.[579] The story of the Argonauts may fairly be held to show[580] that Phoenician enterprise early penetrated into the stormy and inhospitable sea which washes Asia Minor upon the north, and even reached its deepest eastern recess; but it is one thing to sail into seas, and, landing where the natives seem friendly, to traffic with the dwellers on them—*it is quite another thing to attempt a permanent occupation of portions of their coasts. To do so often provokes hostility, and puts a stop to trade instead of encouraging it. The Phoenicians may have been content to draw their native products from the barbarous tribes of Northern Asia Minor and Western Thrace—*nay, even of Southern Scythia—*without risking the collisions that might have followed the establishment of settlements.
As with the Black Sea, so with the Adriatic, the commercial advantages were not sufficient to tempt the Phoenicians to colonise. From Crete and Cythera they sent their gaze afar, and fixed it midway in the Mediterranean, at the western extremity of the eastern basin, on the shores of Sicily, and the vast projection from the coast of North Africa which goes forth to meet them. They knew the harbourless character of the African coast west of Egypt, and the dangers of the Lesser and Greater Syrtes. They knew the fertility of the Tunisian projection, the excellence of its harbours, and the prolificness of the large island that lay directly opposite. "

http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/2331/53.html#gsc.tab=0

My father's hometown Devrek, whose ancient name is Dadybra (AD 300 - AD 640) acording to the Digital Atlas of the Roman Empire, is on a point between historical Paphlagonia and Mariandynia.


You may read the following links for the history of Mariandynia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariandyni
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...mariandyni-geo
https://pleiades.stoa.org/places/844903



Kind Regards

The most important finding for your point is the finding of T1a among the Early Iron Age (around 700 BCE) Rutuli individual (R850) of Ardea (Latium).
The first fact in here is that the Rutuli are of Etruscan origin, there are many archaeological and historical data confirming this.
The next fact is the description of this individual R850 within the Allen Ancient DNA Resource (AADR) dataset (David Reich Lab). R850 is labeled with the title "Italy_IA_Republic_oEasternMediterranean.SG". This individual is a very important genetic finding confirming the theories of the migrations of Pelasgians / Tyrrhenians into Italy.
Like the original study (AntonioGaoMootsScience2019) has similar statements in their paper (their PCA and several descriptions about R850), this label means that individual R850 is an outlier with an origin in the Eastern Mediterranean region (Greece, Lemnos, Western Turkey, etc.).
So, the original native inhabitants of Italy since the Bronze Age (since the Bell Beakers) are the Latins (related to Celtic speakers). And then in the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age period a migration of a distinct people (different from the native Latins / Bell Beakers) happens from the Eastern Mediterranean regions into Italy. These people were the Pelasgians / Tyrrhenians, and T1a was part of this population, and when they settled into Italy they were called Etruscans. If we look at the historical sources on Ardea, we see many stories on the Pelasgians from the Eastern Mediterranean region transforming into the Etruscans in central Italy. But the migrating people were only minor elites, mixing with the native Latins, and in time creating the Roman population.

Paphlagonia
04-24-2021, 11:29 PM
Thank you Manesh. I read the article on the link https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708/tab-pdf


Here is a book chapter: PERKINS, Philip. 8. DNA and Etruscan identity. In: Etruscology. De Gruyter, 2017. p. 109-118. Here is a paragrah:
"A subsequent, more detailed study of 258 samples from Tuscany has identified
that approximately three percent of these contain typical Near Eastern haplogroups,
significantly reducing the proportion estimated by Achilli and colleagues in 2007 (24)
Other studies have also identified a link between modern Tuscan and Anatolian DNA
but suggested that the two populations divided at least as far back as the Neolithic
Period(25)."

24 Cf. n. 22. Brisighelli, Capelli, Alvarez-Iglesias, et al. 2009-
25 Ghirotto et al. 2013; Tassi 2013-

manesh
04-25-2021, 12:52 AM
I dont find it healthy to make conclusions based on modern day people's DNA. The best is to analyze ancient DNA data and compare all results with each other based on the question you are trying to research.

See below some quotations from the Antonio, Gao, Moots et al 2019 study:


Instead, two individuals from Latin sites (R437 and R850) can be modeled as a mixture between local people and an ancient Near Eastern population (best approximated by Bronze Age Armenian or Iron Age Anatolian; tables S17 and S18).


In contrast, R850 forms a clade with an individual from Copper Age Anatolia.


Two two-way models fit well for R437 and R850: RMPR_CA + Armenia_LBA and RMPR_CA + Anatolia_IA.SG. In both models, the incoming source population is temporally proximate to the Iron Age Italian samples, and their geographic locations point to ancestry input from the Near East. Strikingly, R437 and R850 both carry more ancestry from the incoming source than the preceding local population, highlighting the substantial influence of this “eastern” influence on the genetic makeup of central Italians in Iron Age. Furthermore, the influence of this “eastern” ancestry is not limited to R437 and R850, as R1016 and R1015 can also be modeled as RMPR_CA + Anatolia_IA.SG, and R1016 (but not R1015) as RMPR_CA + Armenia_LBA

R850 is obviously from a recent migration from the Eastern Mediterranean.

Looking at the Iron Age individuals defined as Etruscan, these are also obviously from Eastern Mediterranean regions carrying ancestry from the Neolithic period of West Asia.


An Etruscan individual (R475) carries significant African ancestry identified by f-statistics (|Z-score|>3; fig. S23) and can be modeled with ~53% ancestry from Late Neolithic Moroccan (table S19)


The location of R475 in PCA indicates that she (biological sex inferred based on sex chromosome and autosome coverages) carries more Neolithic Anatolian or African ancestry than her contemporaries. Further f4 analysis reveals that R475 shares more alleles with Moroccan hunter-gathers and less alleles with Anatolia farmers, compared to other Italian Iron Age individuals. We were not able to model R475 with any one-way models or as any two-way mixtures with one source being the Copper Age location population, but two three-way models with an African population as one of the sources provide reasonable fits (p>0.03): RMPR_CA + Russia_Yamnaya_Samara + Mota and RMPR_CA + Russia_Yamnaya_Samara + Mota.


The other two Iron Age males, R474 and R850, belong to J-M12 (J2b) and T-L208 (T1a1a) haplogroups respectively. As discussed above, the J haplogroup and its J2a subclade have already been present in early farmers in Italy, the Balkans, and Anatolia (13, 14). In addition, a Bronze Age individual from Croatia
(1631-1521 calBCE) belonged to the J2b2a haplogroup (14) and carried exactly the M314 derived allele that is also found in R474. Therefore,the observed J-M12 (J2b) could be a surviving lineage from local Neolithic populations or due to recent migrations from the Balkans or the Near East. The T1a haplogroup, although absent in our samples prior to Iron Age, has previously been found in early farmers in Bulgaria (5,800-5,400 calBCE) (14) and Germany (5,500-4,850 BCE)(13), so it is possible that it was also present in early farmers in central Italy.

In an earlier study, among the Late Neolithic Moroccan ancient individuals, T1a was found, and the paper then concluded that the T1a individual was a recent migrant from the Early European Farmer population (from the Neolithic Revolution) and mixed with the local native North African (Natufian like) population.
Also, the early Iron Age Etruscan individual R474 carries the West Asian originated marker J2b.

These are all showing the migration pattern written in historical sources of the Pelasgians / Tyrrhenians.
And also the Neolithic Revolution was done by populations from West Asia. A part of this group expanded into Europe and dominated the area for a long time with farming. Then in the Bronze Age, a population from the northern Steppe regions came into Europe dominating this region until the end of the late Bronze Age. And most important to our subject, is that after the late Bronze Age / early Iron Age, populations who are descendants of the Neolithic Revolution groups (but mixed variants) re-expanded (mostly from the Eastern Mediterranean regions) into Europe through Italy, and these people were called in the earliest phases Pelasgians / Tyrrhenians and then Etruscans. And with the later medieval Roman Empire, people with this specific ancestry expanded deeper into Europe mixing with other contemporary local populations.

Paphlagonia
05-02-2021, 01:16 PM
Thank you.

vettor
06-08-2021, 09:09 PM
Dear paternal Y-DNA T1a2b Members;

My paternal Y-DNA is also T1a2b. I live in Turkey, and my paternal and maternal origins are from Paphlagonia.
When I read the forum messages I saw that there are T1a2bs from Italy.

1. As I read from the historical sources Enetians of Pahplagonia founded Venetia. Can it explain the shared origin?
https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...aphlagonia.htm

2.Bucellarian Theme was created around the middle of the 8th century, comprising most of the ancient region of Paphlagonia and parts of Galatia and Phrygia.The name of the theme derives from the late Roman Bucellarii, elite cavalry troops of Gothic or Roman origin, often found as privately recruited bodyguard troops.(Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucellarian_Theme)
Paplagonia had been a part of Roman and later East Roman Empire. Roman Empire had legionnaires from different areas. Can this explain the shared origin? (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionary)

3.Most gladiators were purchased from slave markets from every land of Roman Empire. Can this explain the shared origin?

4.Where was our first original grandfather born? And how his sons migrated/or taken to other places?

5.This is the most likely scenario for me: Phoenecians carried Levantine T1a2b while they traveled by their ships towards the Mediterrean and Black Sea costs.

Haplogroub T is emerging as a mutation from K 45-35 000 years ago. Where it occurs: Levante. Levante, in Italian means the place where the sun rises. Italians called the lands east of them as levante. Levantines are a community born in the Middle East in today's sense. Phoenician Levantine sailors colonized and spread wherever they went in their ships. I think the Levantine Phoenician descendants of our Grandfather T were scattered in the Western Mediterranean by sea voyage. Some of them remained in the Middle East.

Our T cousins ​​also went to Europe. They are mostly found in southwestern Europe, although in a small proportion in every European country. They live in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece and Cyprus in Europe. Their busiest places are Cadiz and Ibiza on the Iberian peninsula in Europe. Paternal T's subgroup T1a2b also points to my closest cousins. They also live in the north east of Italy and in the Eastern Alps.

The most common populations in the Middle East; Syriac community, Jewish Kurdish, Jewish Iranian communities and Sasun Armenians. In other words, we carry the levantine genes mixed with Syriac and Sasun Armenians, too.



Some Sources:

Afezolli D, Allen BM, Hepworth JE, Andrew JK. Unearthing the Roots of Venice: Relics to DNA. https://core.ac.uk/reader/212968370

Avila C. Exploring the history of venice: Relics, records, and relations.

Reynolds, Beatrice. "Brum And Perotti Present A Greek Historian." Bibliotheque d'humanisme et Renaissance 16, no. 1 (1954): 108-118.

Karpov S. The Black Sea region, before and after the Fourth Crusade. Urbs capta: The Fourth Crusade and its Consequences; La IVe Croisade et ses consequences. 2005:288-9.

Carlson E, Nwaobasi F, Saxena S, Truchanovicius V. Venice: Genesis of the City and its People (Doctoral dissertation, Worcester Polytechnic Institute).

Bartusis MC. The late Byzantine army: arms and society, 1204-1453. University of Pennsylvania Press; 1997.



Here is a link and paragraph of a book of Phoenician settlements. As I mentioned above I mostly think that our T1a2b grandparents voyaged everywhere during Phonecian colonisations.

"The further progress of the Phoenician settlements northward into the Propontis and the Euxine is a point whereon different opinions may be entertained. Pronectus, on the Bithynian, and Amastris, on the Paphlagonian coast, have been numbered among the colonies of the Phoenicians by some;[578] while others have gone so far as to ascribe to them the colonisation of the entire countries of Bithynia, Mariandynia, and Paphlagonia.[579] The story of the Argonauts may fairly be held to show[580] that Phoenician enterprise early penetrated into the stormy and inhospitable sea which washes Asia Minor upon the north, and even reached its deepest eastern recess; but it is one thing to sail into seas, and, landing where the natives seem friendly, to traffic with the dwellers on them—*it is quite another thing to attempt a permanent occupation of portions of their coasts. To do so often provokes hostility, and puts a stop to trade instead of encouraging it. The Phoenicians may have been content to draw their native products from the barbarous tribes of Northern Asia Minor and Western Thrace—*nay, even of Southern Scythia—*without risking the collisions that might have followed the establishment of settlements.
As with the Black Sea, so with the Adriatic, the commercial advantages were not sufficient to tempt the Phoenicians to colonise. From Crete and Cythera they sent their gaze afar, and fixed it midway in the Mediterranean, at the western extremity of the eastern basin, on the shores of Sicily, and the vast projection from the coast of North Africa which goes forth to meet them. They knew the harbourless character of the African coast west of Egypt, and the dangers of the Lesser and Greater Syrtes. They knew the fertility of the Tunisian projection, the excellence of its harbours, and the prolificness of the large island that lay directly opposite. "

http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/2331/53.html#gsc.tab=0

My father's hometown Devrek, whose ancient name is Dadybra (AD 300 - AD 640) acording to the Digital Atlas of the Roman Empire, is on a point between historical Paphlagonia and Mariandynia.


You may read the following links for the history of Mariandynia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariandyni
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...mariandyni-geo
https://pleiades.stoa.org/places/844903



Kind Regards

What is your snp ?

your name is also a region of Turkey on the black sea ..............its ancient name was Pala and they spoke Palaic language in the late bronze-age

they where attacked by the kaskians from the crimea and northern caucasus

they say the Eneti went to italy from there .............unsure imo

vettor
06-08-2021, 09:29 PM
Luis et al. (2004) suggest that the presence of T on the African continent may, like R1* representatives, point to an older introduction from Asia. The Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula appears to have been the main route of entry, as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 BP and 9,000 BP, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 BP). According to the authors, the spotty modern distribution pattern of haplogroup T-M184 within Africa may therefore represent the traces of a more widespread early local presence of the clade.


Khar'kov VN, Stepanov VA, Medvedeva OF, Spiridonova MG, Voevoda MI, Tadinova VN, Puzyrev VP (2007). "[Gene pool differences between northern and southern Altaians inferred from the data on Y-chromosomal haplogroups]". Genetika (in Russian). 43 (5): 675–87. doi:10.1134/S1022795407050110. PMID 17633562. S2CID 566825.


4% of T come from this area and 3 branches appear here with the Altaians
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3055870/

vettor
06-09-2021, 01:24 AM
Dear paternal Y-DNA T1a2b Members;

My paternal Y-DNA is also T1a2b. I live in Turkey, and my paternal and maternal origins are from Paphlagonia.
When I read the forum messages I saw that there are T1a2bs from Italy.

1. As I read from the historical sources Enetians of Pahplagonia founded Venetia. Can it explain the shared origin?
https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...aphlagonia.htm

2.Bucellarian Theme was created around the middle of the 8th century, comprising most of the ancient region of Paphlagonia and parts of Galatia and Phrygia.The name of the theme derives from the late Roman Bucellarii, elite cavalry troops of Gothic or Roman origin, often found as privately recruited bodyguard troops.(Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucellarian_Theme)
Paplagonia had been a part of Roman and later East Roman Empire. Roman Empire had legionnaires from different areas. Can this explain the shared origin? (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionary)

3.Most gladiators were purchased from slave markets from every land of Roman Empire. Can this explain the shared origin?

4.Where was our first original grandfather born? And how his sons migrated/or taken to other places?

5.This is the most likely scenario for me: Phoenecians carried Levantine T1a2b while they traveled by their ships towards the Mediterrean and Black Sea costs.

Haplogroub T is emerging as a mutation from K 45-35 000 years ago. Where it occurs: Levante. Levante, in Italian means the place where the sun rises. Italians called the lands east of them as levante. Levantines are a community born in the Middle East in today's sense. Phoenician Levantine sailors colonized and spread wherever they went in their ships. I think the Levantine Phoenician descendants of our Grandfather T were scattered in the Western Mediterranean by sea voyage. Some of them remained in the Middle East.

Our T cousins ​​also went to Europe. They are mostly found in southwestern Europe, although in a small proportion in every European country. They live in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece and Cyprus in Europe. Their busiest places are Cadiz and Ibiza on the Iberian peninsula in Europe. Paternal T's subgroup T1a2b also points to my closest cousins. They also live in the north east of Italy and in the Eastern Alps.

The most common populations in the Middle East; Syriac community, Jewish Kurdish, Jewish Iranian communities and Sasun Armenians. In other words, we carry the levantine genes mixed with Syriac and Sasun Armenians, too.



Some Sources:

Afezolli D, Allen BM, Hepworth JE, Andrew JK. Unearthing the Roots of Venice: Relics to DNA. https://core.ac.uk/reader/212968370

Avila C. Exploring the history of venice: Relics, records, and relations.

Reynolds, Beatrice. "Brum And Perotti Present A Greek Historian." Bibliotheque d'humanisme et Renaissance 16, no. 1 (1954): 108-118.

Karpov S. The Black Sea region, before and after the Fourth Crusade. Urbs capta: The Fourth Crusade and its Consequences; La IVe Croisade et ses consequences. 2005:288-9.

Carlson E, Nwaobasi F, Saxena S, Truchanovicius V. Venice: Genesis of the City and its People (Doctoral dissertation, Worcester Polytechnic Institute).

Bartusis MC. The late Byzantine army: arms and society, 1204-1453. University of Pennsylvania Press; 1997.



Here is a link and paragraph of a book of Phoenician settlements. As I mentioned above I mostly think that our T1a2b grandparents voyaged everywhere during Phonecian colonisations.

"The further progress of the Phoenician settlements northward into the Propontis and the Euxine is a point whereon different opinions may be entertained. Pronectus, on the Bithynian, and Amastris, on the Paphlagonian coast, have been numbered among the colonies of the Phoenicians by some;[578] while others have gone so far as to ascribe to them the colonisation of the entire countries of Bithynia, Mariandynia, and Paphlagonia.[579] The story of the Argonauts may fairly be held to show[580] that Phoenician enterprise early penetrated into the stormy and inhospitable sea which washes Asia Minor upon the north, and even reached its deepest eastern recess; but it is one thing to sail into seas, and, landing where the natives seem friendly, to traffic with the dwellers on them—*it is quite another thing to attempt a permanent occupation of portions of their coasts. To do so often provokes hostility, and puts a stop to trade instead of encouraging it. The Phoenicians may have been content to draw their native products from the barbarous tribes of Northern Asia Minor and Western Thrace—*nay, even of Southern Scythia—*without risking the collisions that might have followed the establishment of settlements.
As with the Black Sea, so with the Adriatic, the commercial advantages were not sufficient to tempt the Phoenicians to colonise. From Crete and Cythera they sent their gaze afar, and fixed it midway in the Mediterranean, at the western extremity of the eastern basin, on the shores of Sicily, and the vast projection from the coast of North Africa which goes forth to meet them. They knew the harbourless character of the African coast west of Egypt, and the dangers of the Lesser and Greater Syrtes. They knew the fertility of the Tunisian projection, the excellence of its harbours, and the prolificness of the large island that lay directly opposite. "

http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/2331/53.html#gsc.tab=0

My father's hometown Devrek, whose ancient name is Dadybra (AD 300 - AD 640) acording to the Digital Atlas of the Roman Empire, is on a point between historical Paphlagonia and Mariandynia.


You may read the following links for the history of Mariandynia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariandyni
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...mariandyni-geo
https://pleiades.stoa.org/places/844903



Kind Regards

your link does not work

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ancient_regions_of_Anatolia