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TigerMW
05-31-2013, 05:27 AM
This was started in a general thread and I'm not sure what the complete question is...

Hi all!
But where does L20+?

Rathna
05-31-2013, 05:58 AM
This was started in a general thread and I'm not sure what the complete question is...

These are the 5 R-L20 on the Boattini’s paper. My friend probably wanted to ask something about this haplogroup in Italy, but, as Richard Rocca has said in another thread, they are a few amongst the R-U152 and it seems with a low variance:

97 Como 13 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b4c1-L20
123 Brescia 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 18 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b4c1-L20
201 Vicenza 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 21 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b4c1-L20
558 Benevento 13 23 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b4c1-L20
487 L'Aquila 13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 14 13 30 17 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b4c1-L20

Bolgeris
08-14-2013, 05:31 PM
little diagram about L20 in Ftdna database with 111 Y DNA... and Bolgeri /Belgeri family

Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (Years)

modal Belgieri 111 640 640 544 1376 1248 1248 1312 1216
Belgieri Italy 640 111 704 736 1696 1568 1824 1760 1568
Belgeri Italy 640 704 111 704 1760 1632 1760 1568 1632
Bolgeri Italy 544 736 704 111 1440 1440 1632 1504 1376
Petermann Switzerland 1376 1696 1760 1440 111 1632 2080 2144 1696
Grassi Italy 1248 1568 1632 1440 1632 111 1824 1696 1888
Dupuy France 1248 1824 1760 1632 2080 1824 111 1824 1632
Fox England 1312 1760 1568 1504 2144 1696 1824 111 1760
Woodruff England 1216 1568 1632 1376 1696 1888 1632 1760 111

0-288 Years 320-608 Years 640-928 Years 960-1248 Years
- Infinite allele mutation model is used
- Average mutation rate varies: 0.0034 to 0.0034, from FTDNA derived rates
- Values on the diagonal indicate number of markers tested
- Probability is 85% that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated
- Average generaton: 32 years

Alessio B. Bedini
08-30-2013, 02:53 PM
I saw that in the project FTDNA U152 there are several L20 +.
What is the maximum genetic distance between L20 +?
When lived L20+ TMRCA ?
If genetic distance is 20 steps TMRCA can be lived 1800-2100 years ago..

Bolgeris
08-30-2013, 07:33 PM
I saw that in the project FTDNA U152 there are several L20 +.
What is the maximum genetic distance between L20 +?
When lived L20+ TMRCA ?
If genetic distance is 20 steps TMRCA can be lived 1800-2100 years ago..

From ftdna U152 project..
Matrix L20 derived 111 STR..
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bwo12PDVxPwwOTE3MDdmZDktYTA1NS00ZDQ0LTlkODQtMDM2Y TE2MWQ4MGQ5/edit?pli=1

The max genetic distance between Belgieri, Belgeri and Bolgeri is 12 / 111 STR..
The medium from others L20+ is 34..
May be L20 TMRCA lived 2500 years ago?!?

Alessio B. Bedini
08-30-2013, 07:46 PM
Thanks for your report. Looking at the table on the genetic distance of all the L20 + I noticed that this distance is very close to the distance between all the L2 +
I believe that TMRCA of L20 + is not much too far from TMRCA of L2 +, maybe even 200-500 years.
So if L2 + is originated 3000-4000 years ago, L20 + may have been born about 3000 years ago.

For the place then I do not think it is in Italy. More likely, West Germany, in the Rhine Valley. From there they spread both to the south in northern Italy, and to the north in the British Isles.
If the origin's place was in northern Italy certainly would spread at least in the regions of central Italy, while at the moment it seems to me there is none.

Bolgeris
08-30-2013, 09:23 PM
Yes correct..
Since the first discovery of the SNP L20 had noticed its spread, predominantly from Switzerland along the Rhine up to Belgium.
see this map from Gilbert (FTdna U152 project):
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&t=h&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105195078464874448682.000478e5a8ff62f591caa
and russian semargl.
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/358/
The fact that L20 is present also in south Italy.. in Benevento (Benevento the former Lombard duchy) and Abruzzo (ex Lombard duchy of Spoleto)--
this should also suggest a Lombard origin for L20 + in Italy?

By thinking about it ..

Alessio B. Bedini
08-30-2013, 09:46 PM
In my opinion the speech for L2 also applies to L20: born in Central Europe came to Italy at different times.
Some perhaps came in Italy during the Iron Age while others came only in the late Middle Ages.
To better understand when they came in Italy is necessary to assess the genetic distance: If this is too much they arrived in Italy earlier or at least the separation between the lines occurred much earlier
What is the genetic distance of L20 on Benevento and Abruzzo from others?

Titus Valerius
08-31-2013, 03:58 PM
Hi all,
my genetic distance from L20+ on Benevento is 6
from L20+ on L' Aquila is 5
there are mismatches on dys 390,439,,458,GATAH4, 456
But my genetic distance from a Scottish L20+ is 1 ! In this case the only mismatch is on dys 456

Bolgeris
09-01-2013, 07:25 AM
Hi all,
my genetic distance from L20+ on Benevento is 6
from L20+ on L' Aquila is 5
there are mismatches on dys 390,439,,458,GATAH4, 456
But my genetic distance from a Scottish L20+ is 1 ! In this case the only mismatch is on dys 456

Ciao
What is exactly the STR used from Boattini?
I think the first 12 are the Ftdna 12 STR.. but others?
Thank you .
Grazie mille.

Alessio B. Bedini
09-01-2013, 03:51 PM
Boattini (2013) used
DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385a DYS385b DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II DYS458 DYS437 DYS448 GATAH4 DYS456 DYS438 DYS635

Bolgeris
09-01-2013, 06:57 PM
Boattini (2013) used
DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385a DYS385b DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II DYS458 DYS437 DYS448 GATAH4 DYS456 DYS438 DYS635

Bolgeri / Benevento L20 no. 3 diff..
Belgeri / Benevento L20 no. 4 diff.
Belgieri / Benevento L20 no. 6 diff.
Mah..

What I see sign. it is the difference in STR H4 between the various L20 tested with Ftdna (including the Bolgeri, Grassi, Cucina, Dupuy, Petermann and Fox) 11 or 10.
And all the Italians tested as Boattini's example all of which have 12 as the value of H4.
It is a difference in lab. value or is it something meaningful?!?

Titus Valerius
09-02-2013, 05:07 AM
Ciao,
here are the STR used by Boattini : Dys 393-390-S19-391-385a-385b-426-388-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-GATAH4-456-438-635
Be well!

Bolgeris
01-23-2014, 12:58 PM
To recap some discussion on L20 etc., from the site Italian IAGIforum:

For Bolgeri/Belgeri/Belgieri family (all L20 tested)..
The progression was as follows:
GD ( = genetic distance ) between Belgieri and Belgeri :
2/12 - 3/25 - 5/37 - 8/67 - 11/111;

GD between Belgieri and Bolgeri :
3/12 - 5/25 - 7/37 - 8/67 - 12/111;

GD between Belgeri and Bolgeri :
1/12 - 2/25 - 4/37 - 8/67 - 11/111 ;


Alessio wrote...Interesting report for several reasons:

1 ) Being at a distance of 11-12 is thought to date back to the Middle Ages , perhaps the 1200-1300
2) This would mean that already existed in the Middle Ages surnames
3 ) It ' amazing that your line has kept the surname virtually intact .. Bolgeri or Belgeri is the same thing ..
4) Your YDNA changing rapidly because 800 years for a distance of 11-12 is short. Usually it is considered in the calculations for at least 1 mutation century and often twice . A distance of 11-12 years from 1100 to 1200 would therefore have meaning if not also from 1500 to 2000 but it is not.
5 ) It would be perfect to discover your common ancestor ..or TMRCA ;)

My reply..
A little late I try to clarify the various points expressed ..
1 ) the distance is 11-12 of 111 STR for all of us Belgeri Bolgeri and Belgieri is a fact ..
that this genetic distance with the common lineage should dates back to the Middle Ages, I'm not sure ..
I get the impression that perhaps the oldest dates back to an era ..
(perhaps a Fara Lombard ? huh? )

In particular, the surname Bolgeri in ancient Como's dialect meant " tinker "
or the man who walked around with the " Bedlam " or bag / bellows to ignite and stoke the fire ..
has the same etymology Bolger Irish ..
from the Celtic word Bolg belly or bag ..

2 ) that also existed in the Middle Ages surnames in certain parts of Italy is likely to ..
just being my surname for a professional worker made ​​me discover that he had a common origin medieval ..
However, the surname is rare and limited only to the mountains of Como .

3) The original surname in the documents of 1500, it was Bolgeri ..
However, only very few have maintained the ancient etymology ..
while most are instead become Belgeri ..
perhaps for the pronunciation of the O and OE Lombard ! ?

4) just because there would be too many mutations .. 11-12 of 111 STR for a few centuries from 1400 about ..
I have the impression that the common genetic origin of the family may be the oldest dating back to 1200 or the origin of surnames ..
but may instead represent a common origin of the inhabitants of Vallassina .. ? ! ?

5 ) Not easy for us to trace the common ancestor ..or TMRCA..
In fact, the only name of the villages of Civenna / Barni in 1500/1600
was " Bolgeri " or " de Bolgeriis " and all were named Peter or Peter Anthony ..
we would have to study and photograph the entire archive of baptisms , etc. ..

Mah . for the moment I am waiting for the test BIG Y of Ftdna ..
and we hope that finally should be able to divide the various " clade " of L20 + .

Alessio wrote:
Of course it will be important divide in all subgroup L20 +
Some considerations: First, as I said the first L20 + was born in Central Europe since his descendants have moved both north and south .
Also I think it is clear that the road is followed to the British Isles and towards Italy was the Rhine
It seems to me very explicit that your ancestors are from time immemorial in Civenna where residents are definitely arrived or via Lugano or via St. Moritz .

Bolgeris reply:
The only question is whether the name instead of the origin "professional" from Bedlam or bag ..
My surname Bolgeri ..
does not derive instead from Bilgeri Swiss Zurich ..
Bilgeri = Pellegrino = Pilgrim
also a rare surname because , being faithful to the Habsburgs , the Bilgeri fled from Switzerland into Austria ( the Vorarlberg) after the Switzerland's "independence" warsof the cantons by the Habsburgs .. 1315 posts
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battaglia_di_Morgarten
why not think that any of Bilgeri Swiss ..installed himself in the Como area and that there are my ancestor Bolgeri ?

Another plausible origin so it may be that Bolgeri is not the result but the surname Bilgeri Bedlam ... derived from Swiss German Bilgeri = Pilgrim .... or pilgrim.
It would not be impossible for a parent from Switzerland with the surname Bilgeri arrived in Valalssina ? ! It has transformed , arriving in Como , surname from Bilgeri to Bolgeri ..
Clearly, this hypothesis can be demonstrated only when the other Bilgeri , the canton of Zurich in Switzerland or in the Austrian Vorarlberg .. will do the test ..

Unfortunately, to date there are no genetic tests Bilgeri ..
so until we can compare the data ..
these are only hypotheses . .

Rathna
01-23-2014, 02:43 PM
Another plausible origin so it may be that Bolgeri is not the result but the surname Bilgeri Bedlam ... derived from Swiss German Bilgeri = Pilgrim .... or pilgrim.
It would not be impossible for a parent from Switzerland with the surname Bilgeri arrived in Valalssina ? ! It has transformed , arriving in Como , surname from Bilgeri to Bolgeri ..
Clearly, this hypothesis can be demonstrated only when the other Bilgeri , the canton of Zurich in Switzerland or in the Austrian Vorarlberg .. will do the test ..

Unfortunately, to date there are no genetic tests Bilgeri ..
so until we can compare the data ..
these are only hypotheses . .

I said to you many years ago that to think that /bìlgeri/ [read in Italian /bìlgheri/] may have become /boljèri/ is absurd by a linguistic point of view.

Bolgeris
01-23-2014, 06:09 PM
Yes..
It was just a hypothesis...
seen that over the centuries the pronunciation of my last name could be either with the soft g (j) or with gh that hard ..
I remember that the pronunc. for Bolgeri's ancestral village is Civenna in italian language.. (but is.. Scivéna in Civenna's dialect ("vallassinese"), phonetic pr. IPA: /ʧiˈvena/).....
Only genetic tests could prove or disprove a hypothesis (Bilgeri etc.).

For the rest of what do you know that..
I think should be interesting that the common origin of the various Bolgeri, Belgeri or Belgieri may be older than 800 years, but that should goes back to the time of colonization of the valley "Vallassina" and Civenna village during the Lombard?!? or Celtic?! or Rethic time?!

Who knows ..?!
May be after the Big y and full Y results will arrive.. !?

Rathna
01-24-2014, 02:57 AM
May be after the Big y and full Y results will arrive.. !?

Certainly the Big Y and the Full Y will give a great contribute to understand that, even though there are many problems yet about the comparability of their results, and how many years is worth in time each SNP. We are always discussing about all that, but also Chromo2, once known its SNPs (like they are promising to do), will be able to say something important, at least for my haplogroup.
It seems to me that not only R-Z192 and R-Z56, but also R-Z36 and also R-L2, above the * ones, have being demonstrating of Italian origin (and it seems to me that also Richard Rocca has convinced himself about that, and the same Francalacci is convinced to be "Etruscan"). I leave a possibility to your L20 to have come recently to Italy yet, even though my old idea of the origin of the oldest subclades of R-U152 in Italy seems to me more and more reliable. Also my R-Z2110* has already many SNPs which differentiate itself from all the other European ones and at a scale of Big Y and Full Y they would be thousands of years.

GTSSportCoupe
04-24-2015, 08:52 PM
Another R-L20 here. My paternal family is from Denmark. Seems we are more northerly than most L20. Fascinating reading on the forums here. I did the Geno 2.0 test, and my results are in the U152 project at FTDNA. Thanks to all you folks working hard to further understand the origins and story of U152.

Bolgeris
08-19-2015, 05:48 PM
New Yfull 3.14 tree...

L20 and my cluster CTS9733 and Y11785 origin 4100 years ago?
What do you think?

R-L20 L20/S144 * Z1908/CTS1939 * Z2533/Z1921/PF129 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybp

R-L20*
id:YF02964
id:YF03021ITA [IT-SP]

R-Z291Z291/S256
id:NA19649MXL
id:NA20515TSI

R-CTS9733 CTS9733/S3856 * YSC0000193 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybp

R-CTS9733*
id:HG01767IBS
id:YF03691

R-Y11785 FGC17189/Y11786 * FGC17194/Y11787 * FGC17199/Y11788... 14 SNPs formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp

id:YF01754ITA [IT-CO]
id:YF02864ITA [IT-CO]

R-Z1909 Z1910 * Z1909 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp

R-Z1909*
id:HG01356CLM
id:YF03579

R-Y6789 S20363 * Y6791 * Y6789... 3 SNPs formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybp

R-Y6789*
id:YF02125GBR

R-Y15103 Y15106 * Y15110 * Y15103... 18 SNPs formed 3000 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybp

id:NA12005CEU
id:YF03358

wombatofthenorth
03-14-2016, 06:51 AM
Another R-L20 here. My paternal family is from Denmark. Seems we are more northerly than most L20. Fascinating reading on the forums here. I did the Geno 2.0 test, and my results are in the U152 project at FTDNA. Thanks to all you folks working hard to further understand the origins and story of U152.

We are even more northerly. My strictly paternal side comes from Latvia. It's traced at least to 1826 there so far and possibly already to around 1750. It seems pretty odd since AFAIK even U152 isn't not really supposed to be in the Baltics, much less L20, not sure what to make of it. Crazy thing is, despite the vast bulk of my ancestry tracing within Latvia, both my strictly paternal and strictly maternal lines are among the exceptions with the former apparently maybe having to trace out somewhere not too way far back and the latter probably quickly tracing back to Germany.

Titus Valerius
03-18-2016, 07:59 AM
Hi wombatofthenorth, I'm L20+ as well and last year I did the Big Y test. In the U152 project on FTDNA I'm as Bernardo from Tivegna: my earliest known ancestor. Are you on this project too? What tests did you do? My best regards.

wombatofthenorth
03-23-2016, 05:19 AM
Hi wombatofthenorth, I'm L20+ as well and last year I did the Big Y test. In the U152 project on FTDNA I'm as Bernardo from Tivegna: my earliest known ancestor. Are you on this project too? What tests did you do? My best regards.

So far just 23 and Geno 2.0 but awaiting Geno 2.0 NG.
My dad is there but the data on the project is a little outdated as it has "Janis 1886 unknown location Latvia" but it could be updated to Behrtul circa 1826 unknown farm (possibly Bahle) on Nurmhusen estate, Latvia.

wombatofthenorth
04-11-2016, 02:46 AM
Well the new Geno actually tested LESS SNP for my dad's L20 than the old one!
And it did way less for my dad's V mtDNA!

wombatofthenorth
04-11-2016, 02:58 AM
Hi wombatofthenorth, I'm L20+ as well and last year I did the Big Y test. In the U152 project on FTDNA I'm as Bernardo from Tivegna: my earliest known ancestor. Are you on this project too? What tests did you do? My best regards.

What I can say using the old test is:
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a1 L20/S144+
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a1~ L737-, L738 (not tested?), L739-, S256/Z291-, Z383+
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a1a~ CTS11795.2-, PF121.2+

which seems odd since my dad then tested negative for a few things supposedly upstream of PF121.2.

Titus Valerius
04-17-2016, 08:24 PM
Hi Wombatofthenorth, I think you have to test Z1910 and CTS9733!! You are Z291- like me! I'm Z1910- and CTS9733 T (ancestral form)

wombatofthenorth
04-19-2016, 12:56 AM
Hi Wombatofthenorth, I think you have to test Z1910 and CTS9733!! You are Z291- like me! I'm Z1910- and CTS9733 T (ancestral form)

Actually it seems the new test does add a new one, BY2171. FTDNA seems to report it as either negative or untested though on the tree but going by SNP lookup site the AA value seems to be positive derived (unless it was meant to be read opposite for this one).

We are probably CTS9733 ancestral too as the old test tested a different SNP that supposedly is more or less equivalent to CTS9733 as negative.

wombatofthenorth
06-10-2016, 06:54 AM
Well I heard back from FTDNA and they said the chip reads BY2171 strand reversed so my AA result is actually TT and thus ancestral (negative).

That means that I'm actually negative for all the major known R-L20 sub-branches (at least all the ones FTDNA lists on their Y-tree). I guess that is sort of interesting.

The question is, is that just nothing much and just an artifact that not enough R-L20 have tested anywhere yet or it is some clue that there is something unusual about our R-L20. We do know that R-L20 is found only very rarely in our main country of ancestry (I see only one other person on all of FTDNA reporting the same country.) so might this hint that R-L20 maybe could go way back in the Baltics and that there could be some unique, old, very rare branch there from way back when and it's not something that snuck in from some other region more recently? What if some R1b even down to R-L20 are older than thought and got into the Baltics long ago?

Titus Valerius
09-25-2016, 07:05 PM
Hi all,
In recent months I have tested several friends of mine. One of them is L20+ like me, his surname is very old in my area. He has been tested for 37 STRs ( his ID on Ysearch is FDTSD) and according to the comparison of our STRs, we have a genetic distance of 24/37 and I think three STRs of his are very distinctive and that is Dys 389I=12 - Dys 392=14 - Dys 389II 27. In addition he has been tested for Z291, Z1910, CTS9733 and the results are negative just like me. I have tried to test him for my terminal SNP BY5690, but Yseq is not able to test it yet, well I have tested him for BY2171 and the result is negative.

Titus Valerius
09-25-2016, 07:46 PM
.,.,.,

wombatofthenorth
12-14-2016, 11:09 PM
My dad just ordered Y37. We'll see what sorts of matches turn up. Got it for $89 (they gave an extra $30 off to Geno 2.0 NG transfer people and then the $30 off for holidays and then $20 off coupon).

wombatofthenorth
12-27-2016, 02:46 AM
we get four matches of distance 2 at 25 (three have the same surname, perhaps sounds Slovakian, and two of them lists most distant relative in Slovakia 1608) and they all have R-L20 and the other lists no info at all and is M269 (pre-cursor to R-L20, I'd bet they are R-L20, but I suppose they might not be) and has a sort of maybe Finnish first name and a sort of German or Swedish last name.

at 37 markers, one of the Slovkian 1608 matches shows distance 4 and the other two from there disappear so must be over 4 at 37, not sure what that implies about this remaining one and then the other match is distance of 3 here, however the tip calculator gives both matches the same % chance at each generational difference

neither surname matches ours, however, considering our line had no surname until 1835, no surprise. The Slovakian? surname goes far back so it would imply, if that was our line, that it was some noble and some local Latvian serf girl at some point (there would be no marriage and thus no adoption of the surname since the foreigners who ran the estates in the Baltics were not allowed to marry the native population since the 'high class' deemed the natives beneath them). I have no clue if the other surname was one that goes way back too or was another adopted around 1835 deal. If it goes way back too then we can't come from both lines other than from so far back as before even the noble classes in Western Europe had surnames. If it turned out we did share a direct common ancestor with either within the period after surnames appeared in Western Europe, then it would seem that surname would have to be the line we came from, even though the surname would have been lost for one or many generation of Baltic serfs and then our line got assigned or picked our actual surname in 1835.

It seems likely we probably did come from some other surname line originally and then the name was lost due to a tangle with local serfs since R-L20 seems crazy rare in Latvia and doesn't appear to be able to go back to any ancient Latvian lines or anything since the heatmaps for even earlier branhces of R-L20 show zero for the Baltic region unless our line is uncovering something unknown, that R-L20 actually had been in the Baltic area in ancient times and ours is one of the few surviving ancient lines or something.

also, oddly, they give us a Niall of the Nine badge, but AFAIK he is M222, so how can we R-L20 get that badge? Did they just look at STR25 results only?

wombatofthenorth
12-27-2016, 02:48 AM
"Dys 389I=12 - Dys 392=14 - Dys 389II 27"

for those we get:
13, 14, 29

wombatofthenorth
12-27-2016, 02:54 AM
We don't seem to get anything on ysearch

St. Pierre
06-28-2017, 03:06 PM
I have a ? for anybody that might know, I am derived/positive for R1b-U152-L2 according to my 23andme raw data, I put my snp's into Chris Morley's haplogroup predictor and it said negative for L20 but last night I went thru my raw data and found rs7067305 which I thought was the marker for L20 and it was A or G and my genotype was G so derived/positive so am I positive for L20 or not because I was thinking I was Z49 below L2 and now I'm not so sure? thanks

R.Rocca
06-28-2017, 03:35 PM
I have a ? for anybody that might know, I am derived/positive for R1b-U152-L2 according to my 23andme raw data, I put my snp's into Chris Morley's haplogroup predictor and it said negative for L20 but last night I went thru my raw data and found rs7067305 which I thought was the marker for L20 and it was A or G and my genotype was G so derived/positive so am I positive for L20 or not because I was thinking I was Z49 below L2 and now I'm not so sure? thanks

The L20+ value is 'A' and the L20- value is 'G', so you are L20-.

St. Pierre
06-28-2017, 03:42 PM
thanks, I thought the second value given was derived and the first was ancestral? So I guess it's still looking like I'm most likely Z49.

R.Rocca
06-28-2017, 03:47 PM
thanks, I thought the second value given was derived and the first was ancestral?

The answer is very complicated, but the short explanation is that the human male that scientists first used to define a portion of the reference model was in fact L20+. So, for that one man, the 'A' value is the 'normal' value.


So I guess it's still looking like I'm most likely Z49.

As I've stated in a prior post... there is nothing in SNPs that will correlate to STRs, so there is no way any haplogroup predictor can tell you you are likely to be Z49.

St. Pierre
06-28-2017, 03:50 PM
I'm going to try the single Z49 snp test at YSEQ and see where that gets me. Does anybody know how long the single snp tests take to get results? thanks

wombatofthenorth
07-08-2017, 05:17 AM
FWIW, did the STR67 and now even our two STR37 matches are gone and nothing added so we are zero matches at STR67.

So we are some weird R-L20 branch. And it somehow ended up in the Baltics.

FrankAlbion
07-25-2017, 06:58 PM
Reference: R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z367/S255 > L20/S144
I am a subclade of the above. One of my Big-Y matches, and only one, shows the non-matching SNP of L817. Where can I find information about this SNP and the effect it might have on establishing our geographic, ethnic, and time frame origins?

jcmax68
07-30-2019, 07:57 PM
I'm not smart enough to figure out age to TMCRA based on STR mutations at beginning of this post. I have done BigY700 at FTDNA. Broad Y sublcades are U152>L2>Z367>L20. I'm one of those oddball U152s from Northern Ireland. Could be ancient Celt, could be Romano-Belgic, could be Dane (Cimbri echo?), could be Norman. My MDKA is out of County Antrim, N. Ireland about 1700. But Y67 and Y37 matching (latter with shared surname) indicates a Scotland origin, possibly Northumberland prior to that. My and my paternal uncle's only Big Y match is surnamed Black and traces next door to County Tyrone, but 100+ years later. We match him at SNP BY69713. My uncle and I have terminal SNP of FT20578. For now, I am presuming that we are probably either Saxon Romano-Belgic descendants from Roman auxiliaries, or Norman (maybe Flemish) descendants post conquest. I am assuming we trace to Scotland and ended up in Northern Ireland in 1600+ plantation era. My 5th GGF emigrated to North Carolina probably sometime after 1740, but virtually no knowledge prior other than his father and mother's names (which I've been able to match to no records thus far) in Antrim. If anyone has any advice, I'd very much welcome it.

jcmax68
07-30-2019, 08:00 PM
@ wombat: It's a shot in the dark, but I know there were a fair number of Scottish mercenaries who ended up in Poland, I think during Thirty Years War. Is it possible some U152 descent from them that ended up in Latvia? I'm U152>L20 and Y matching seems to indicate a Scottish origin. Though whether that origin is pre or post Roman and/or Norman remains unclear.

jcmax68
08-05-2019, 06:49 PM
I'm new to Anthrogenica and this forum so I'll share some background. I have done BigY700 on FTDNA (kit #843604). My full downtrace from R-U152 is R-U152>L2>Z367>L20>BY69713>FT20578. My terminal SNP is confirmed by my paternal uncle's BigY700 as well. Our MDKA was from Antrim Ireland, born around 1700. He may have been born in Scotland. I have a Y37 (GD3) match with same surname (though no known relation) who also traces to Northern Ireland in early 1800s. His line traces from there back to Midlothian area of Scotland. I have a Y67 (GD4) match who was adopted out of Aberdeen Scotland. He believes he has traced his paternal line by autosomal matching to a MacNeil ancestor in mid-1700s from western isle of Tiree Scotland (not far from Antrim where mine hail from). I also have a Y67 (GD3) match surnamed Pedersen but have never been able to make contact with him. Interestingly, another FTDNA member who is L20 traces to an Anders Gyldenstierne out of Denmark c. 1300. This Gyldenstierne line later had a descendant who line took the name Pedersen. This could imply a distant Norse or Norman connection, but that is speculative. I have one BigY match, surnamed Black at SNP BY69713. He also traces to Northern Ireland in mid-1800s. For what its worth, the last two blocks on my BigY700 at FTDNA are BY69713 (along with BY90902, BY133312, BY94313, FT24199, BY52376, BY146707, FT56478, BY133159, BY149308, BY127517, BY211642, BY77471, FT23737, BY148860, BY143658, BY118281); and my terminal (matched to paternal uncle) at FT20578 (along with FT15484, FT21819, AM00185, FT23317, FT16973, FT20849, FT17859, FT15594, FT26783, FT27199, FT20930, FT25232, FT15797, FT24397, FT15573). I'm having my sons custom SNP paneled at YSEQ. I know for sure that you can test BY69713 and FT20578 at YSEQ now. I've sent them all the listed SNPs so others may be available too. Just wondering if there are any other L20s out there wandering in the wilderness who wanted to compare notes. I feel like I've been spinning my wheels for nearly a year.

falconson1
08-18-2019, 11:36 PM
I'm new to Anthrogenica and this forum so I'll share some background. I have done BigY700 on FTDNA (kit #843604). My full downtrace from R-U152 is R-U152>L2>Z367>L20>BY69713>FT20578. My terminal SNP is confirmed by my paternal uncle's BigY700 as well. Our MDKA was from Antrim Ireland, born around 1700. He may have been born in Scotland. I have a Y37 (GD3) match with same surname (though no known relation) who also traces to Northern Ireland in early 1800s. His line traces from there back to Midlothian area of Scotland. I have a Y67 (GD4) match who was adopted out of Aberdeen Scotland. He believes he has traced his paternal line by autosomal matching to a MacNeil ancestor in mid-1700s from western isle of Tiree Scotland (not far from Antrim where mine hail from). I also have a Y67 (GD3) match surnamed Pedersen but have never been able to make contact with him. Interestingly, another FTDNA member who is L20 traces to an Anders Gyldenstierne out of Denmark c. 1300. This Gyldenstierne line later had a descendant who line took the name Pedersen. This could imply a distant Norse or Norman connection, but that is speculative. I have one BigY match, surnamed Black at SNP BY69713. He also traces to Northern Ireland in mid-1800s. For what its worth, the last two blocks on my BigY700 at FTDNA are BY69713 (along with BY90902, BY133312, BY94313, FT24199, BY52376, BY146707, FT56478, BY133159, BY149308, BY127517, BY211642, BY77471, FT23737, BY148860, BY143658, BY118281); and my terminal (matched to paternal uncle) at FT20578 (along with FT15484, FT21819, AM00185, FT23317, FT16973, FT20849, FT17859, FT15594, FT26783, FT27199, FT20930, FT25232, FT15797, FT24397, FT15573). I'm having my sons custom SNP paneled at YSEQ. I know for sure that you can test BY69713 and FT20578 at YSEQ now. I've sent them all the listed SNPs so others may be available too. Just wondering if there are any other L20s out there wandering in the wilderness who wanted to compare notes. I feel like I've been spinning my wheels for nearly a year.

I would be happy to compare notes, since both of my paternal great grandfathers were L20. My Faux line (originally Falke) can be traced to the 1300s to Worlingham, Suffolk on the coast on the border with Norfolk. My L20 Hipkin ancestors were from Lincolnshire. However my great grandfather said in his diary that his great grandfather was cast ashore from a shipwreck in Boston (Lincolnshire) and adopted as a Hipkin. Not sure about this as there are many Hipkins in nearby coastal Norfolk.

I have NO faith in the use of YSTR data since my father and I match his second cousin at only 22 of 25 markers. Same with 8th cousins. However my only "matches" at 25 markers are with Fauxes - no one else - every cousin (2nd to 8th) matches exactly the 2nd panel of 13 markers and no one else in the FTDNA database. Downstream SNPs are the approach that has meaning and validity and can confidently be compared with others of the L20 haplogroup. I have tested to STR Y67 but have no faith in the utility of using them in genealogy let alone delving further back in time.

If you go to https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=ysnp then click on kit number, I am kit 1336. SNPs seen there are from Genographic upload, and Z367 pack.

jcmax68
08-20-2019, 01:31 PM
I would be happy to compare notes, since both of my paternal great grandfathers were L20. My Faux line (originally Falke) can be traced to the 1300s to Worlingham, Suffolk on the coast on the border with Norfolk. My L20 Hipkin ancestors were from Lincolnshire. However my great grandfather said in his diary that his great grandfather was cast ashore from a shipwreck in Boston (Lincolnshire) and adopted as a Hipkin. Not sure about this as there are many Hipkins in nearby coastal Norfolk.

I have NO faith in the use of YSTR data since my father and I match his second cousin at only 22 of 25 markers. Same with 8th cousins. However my only "matches" at 25 markers are with Fauxes - no one else - every cousin (2nd to 8th) matches exactly the 2nd panel of 13 markers and no one else in the FTDNA database. Downstream SNPs are the approach that has meaning and validity and can confidently be compared with others of the L20 haplogroup. I have tested to STR Y67 but have no faith in the utility of using them in genealogy let alone delving further back in time.

If you go to https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=ysnp then click on kit number, I am kit 1336. SNPs seen there are from Genographic upload, and Z367 pack.

Thank you, sir. Dr. Faux, I presume? If so, I have read your papers on L20 from a few years ago with great interest. I agree with you that Y STR seems too fuzzy to make confident connections. Though interestingly, my uncle and I do have 1x distant cousin Y67 match who we know from independent genealogy in both families is descended from a different son of the same 5th GGF (my uncle's 4th GGF) we trace to in North Carolina (d. 1787). He, like my Pedersen match is GD3 at Y67. It's possible that Mr. Pedersen is an unknown NPE of one of my paternal ancestors, though the L20 connection to Anders Gyldenstirerne>Pedersen is intriguing. My uncle's and my distant cousin is upgrading to BigY700 so that will be interesting to see if he ends up with same terminal SNP as my uncle and me. I have had both my son's U152 Superclade tested at YSEQ and also done Wish a SNP for them, they too are + from U152>L2>Z367>L20>BY69713>FT20578. They are also + for FT21819, one of the other SNPs in our FT20578 block. Best regards, J.C. (Max) Wilkinson, Charleston WV

falconson1
08-20-2019, 05:19 PM
Thank you, sir. Dr. Faux, I presume? If so, I have read your papers on L20 from a few years ago with great interest. I agree with you that Y STR seems too fuzzy to make confident connections. Though interestingly, my uncle and I do have 1x distant cousin Y67 match who we know from independent genealogy in both families is descended from a different son of the same 5th GGF (my uncle's 4th GGF) we trace to in North Carolina (d. 1787). He, like my Pedersen match is GD3 at Y67. It's possible that Mr. Pedersen is an unknown NPE of one of my paternal ancestors, though the L20 connection to Anders Gyldenstirerne>Pedersen is intriguing. My uncle's and my distant cousin is upgrading to BigY700 so that will be interesting to see if he ends up with same terminal SNP as my uncle and me. I have had both my son's U152 Superclade tested at YSEQ and also done Wish a SNP for them, they too are + from U152>L2>Z367>L20>BY69713>FT20578. They are also + for FT21819, one of the other SNPs in our FT20578 block. Best regards, J.C. (Max) Wilkinson, Charleston WV

Hey Max. Yes, that would be me. As to YSTR, I agree that in many instances it is useful in both genetic genealogy and population genetics. In my Shetland Islands Project at FTDNA there are many instances where a, for example, STOUT with a complete genealogy extending back 400 years on the Scottish Mainland matched at 67 markers someone with the same surname with an equally lengthy genealogy in Shetland. Certain families (lineages) seem to be more "prone" to mutation than others - hence using this approach for yourself works, for me it does not. Oddly two of my 8th cousins (who branch in the late 1600s) have matching YSTR profiles - I should use their DNA for analyses (recognizing that my own is far less suitable). Hopefully there is more stability for me in the SNP mutation department.

I don't know if they were L20, but I have WILKINSON ancestors from Scaring, Norfolk dating into the 1600s.

Clearly I need to obtain more downstream L20 SNPs, however in reading some of the posts here, there appears to be a lot of dissatisfaction with the available options (particularly the excessive wait times). Since I don't really have any genealogy questions that BigY or whatever could answer, my main interest now is to find the geographical region where my East Anglian L20 Y chromosome came from on the Continent. That will be a tall order, but these days most ancient DNA studies probe deeply into the Y haplogroups. Oddly pop gen studies of modern populations seem to be quite content to remain way upstream - U152 or before. So, we wait. Cheers from SoCal, DKF.

jcmax68
08-26-2019, 01:29 PM
Hey Max. Yes, that would be me. As to YSTR, I agree that in many instances it is useful in both genetic genealogy and population genetics. In my Shetland Islands Project at FTDNA there are many instances where a, for example, STOUT with a complete genealogy extending back 400 years on the Scottish Mainland matched at 67 markers someone with the same surname with an equally lengthy genealogy in Shetland. Certain families (lineages) seem to be more "prone" to mutation than others - hence using this approach for yourself works, for me it does not. Oddly two of my 8th cousins (who branch in the late 1600s) have matching YSTR profiles - I should use their DNA for analyses (recognizing that my own is far less suitable). Hopefully there is more stability for me in the SNP mutation department.

I don't know if they were L20, but I have WILKINSON ancestors from Scaring, Norfolk dating into the 1600s.

Clearly I need to obtain more downstream L20 SNPs, however in reading some of the posts here, there appears to be a lot of dissatisfaction with the available options (particularly the excessive wait times). Since I don't really have any genealogy questions that BigY or whatever could answer, my main interest now is to find the geographical region where my East Anglian L20 Y chromosome came from on the Continent. That will be a tall order, but these days most ancient DNA studies probe deeply into the Y haplogroups. Oddly pop gen studies of modern populations seem to be quite content to remain way upstream - U152 or before. So, we wait. Cheers from SoCal, DKF.

That is interesting. I joined the Yorkshire and East Anglia projects on FTDNA hoping that maybe deeper matching might pop up, but so far the only matching is much less robust than my Aberdeen/Midlothian matches. There were Wilkinsons for sure in Yorkshire and also in Northumberland, but so far I've not been able to match any. In the Wilkinson FTDNA project (only a couple hundred members) there are probably at least 10 separate Y haplo groups. So clearly the surname was adopted by several unrelated lines independently. Very frustrating, though at least it allow the elimination of branches to look at. Cheers, Max

jcmax68
10-22-2019, 01:16 PM
Dr. Faux, I was conversing with Steve Gilbert of FTDNA U152 project (prompted by a combination of Tibor Feher's 2010 STR annotation and also seeking clarity on Rich Rocca's 2013 statement about L20 in UK arriving via La Tene Celts) over the weekend about my and my BigY700 matches L20 terminal SNPs. He offered up this, which may be information you already have:

"I had a look at your subclade and it really need to be worked out.

From L20 to the split in between the Black [BY69713] and the Wilkinsons [FT20578] I count 17 SNPs which is enormous. Let say we count 100 years per SNP x 17= 1700 years without migration path information.

From the above split to you, I count an additional 16 SNPs (16 x 100= 1600)

1700 + 1600= 3300 years with only one split. ....

Regarding L20, it has been spread by the late Bell Beaker, Unetice and early Tumulus cultures

Subclades of L20 has been spread by the Hallstatt and Urnfield cultures

L20 Datation:
YFull: 4100 BP
YTree: 3626 BP

Cultures of that period:
Beaker: 4900-3800 BP
Unetice: 4300-3600 BP
Tumulus: 3600-3200 BP (many of the first major L20 subclades)

Posterior cultures:
Urnfield: 3300-2700 BP (Explosion of downstream L20 subclades)
Hallstatt: 3200-2500 BP
La Tène: 2500-2000 BP (Many L20 subclades were already well established for over a 1000 years when it appeared)."

I'm hitting up all my Y37 and higher matches (and Y25 and higher if surname contains "Wilk") to either do BigY700 on FTDNA or a comprehensive custom SNP panel of all the BY69713 and FT20578 SNPs at YSEQ to try to fill in some gaps. Most of them haven't refined past M269 and it is exasperating.

Both my BigY match (Black) and my line trace to Ulster. My MDKA was in Antrim and born there (or possibly Scotland) around 1700. My match (Black) traces a MDKA to around 1820 in County Tyrone. Of course all of this is solidly post Ulster Plantation so its difficult to know if we were Irish, Scot, or maybe Welsh or English. U152 is very low in Wales so that seems improbable, but I do know of Wilkinson lines in Antrim that claim welsh descent (but no known connection with my line as yet).

I will gather all the 33 BY69713 and FT20578 block SNPs and post them here. BY69713 dates to roughly 300-400AD. My Black match has an additional 6x private variants downstream of BY69713. I'll ask him for those too.