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R.Rocca
05-31-2013, 12:41 PM
From the Boattini et al (2013) study from Italy...


As described for other European and Italian populations [2], [6], [14], [15], [57] most of the sequences belong to the super-haplogroup H, which includes
44.4% of the Italian mtDNA lineages. In particular, H1 turned out to represent a large proportion of H samples, encompassing the 13.8% of the total variability (10.4% excluding sub-lineages). Compared to H1, sub-haplogroups H3 and H5 represent much smaller fractions of H composition, reaching however noteworthy
frequencies (3.9% and 4.3% respectively). Most of the remaining samples belong to haplogroups frequently found in western Eurasia, including U5, K1, J1, J2, T1, T2, and HV. Among the U5 lineages, U5a is the most frequent (3.70%). Haplogroups K1a, HV and J1c take into account respectively the 4.39%, 4.05% and
the 3.93% of the total mtDNA variability. The remaining lineages reach frequencies that do not exceed a 3.5% threshold.

Not really a surprise as H1, H3 and H5 are the most common mtDNA haplogroups in Europe. But, here is where it gets interesting...


Our results suggest that most of Italian mitochondrial diversity originated during and immediately after LGM. In particular, estimates for H1 and H3 are even older in Italy than in the Franco-Cantabrian area [27] where these clades have been postulated to originate [4]. Furthermore, DAPC comparisons with a wide set of European haplotypes (Table S9) show that Italy, in most cases, is characterised by the highest number of different haplotypes. On the whole, these observations not only are in agreement with the existence of a human Glacial Refugium in Italy, but also suggest that its relevance has been until now largely underrated.

And then further about the Neolithisation of Italy...


The most recent archaeological syntheses [10] describe the early Neolithisation of Italy as the result of two independent and parallel processes, involving respectively the Adriatic and the Tyrrhenian coasts and dating as early as 8,100 YBP (Apulia, South-Eastern Italy) and 7,900 YBP (Liguria, North-Western Italy).

So, the question is...could R1b have been bottled up for a long time on the Tyrrhenian coast, only to emerge during the Copper Age on a westward movement to Iberia?

razyn
05-31-2013, 12:57 PM
So, the question is...could R1b have been bottled up for a long time on the Tyrrhenian coast, only to emerge during the Copper Age on a westward movement to Iberia?

Or maybe bottled up somewhere south of the Caspian Sea, only to move west about 3,000 years later and start mating with those H1-3-5 Ligurians (and other more European women), who had been there since the Younger Dryas or longer with the G and I guys.

Rathna
05-31-2013, 01:14 PM
So, the question is...could R1b have been bottled up for a long time on the Tyrrhenian coast, only to emerge during the Copper Age on a westward movement to Iberia?

You know that this is my theory from many years, I think having also demonstrated by data, not only the migration by boats happened 7500 years ago Zilhao spoke of, but also by the presence of R-L51 in Iberia just on the places of their settlements, by the origin of the Indo-European languages of Iberia linked to Ligurian, etc. Not least the presence of the Tuscan Mangino/Mancini as an intermediate haplotype between R1b1 and R-M269. It seems that he'll be able to be tested next year, but I think that before I'll be able to carry some proof to my theory.
For now I think that my theory of an Italian Refugium, that only a few years ago made many people of this forum laugh, that is said in a paper of geneticists published on a peer review is worth something.

R.Rocca
05-31-2013, 01:44 PM
Or maybe bottled up somewhere south of the Caspian Sea, only to move west about 3,000 years later and start mating with those H1-3-5 Ligurians (and other more European women), who had been there since the Younger Dryas or longer with the G and I guys.

That could be the case, but the phylogeny and frequency paints a different picture.

- L23* (or should we say Z2105) starts to pick up steam in southern Italy and seems to ride the wave of advance from west to east, which we know is the opposite of L51. L23* variance is highest in the eastern Balkans as per academia.
- We have L51(xL11), or should we say Z2113, as the second largest group after U152 on the Austrian/Italian Alpine border. MJost and Mikewww recently has variance for this group as being 10% higher than L11+ lineages.
- We have P312(xU152,L21) as the second largest group in NE Italy as per this paper. I'd like to think almost all of it is DF27+, but out of the two P312(xU152,L21) kits that have tested from that area, one was DF27+ and the other was DF27-.
- The only real continuous hotspot that exists for M269(xL23) is in the southern Dinaric Alps.

TigerMW
05-31-2013, 01:53 PM
... So, the question is...could R1b have been bottled up for a long time on the Tyrrhenian coast, only to emerge during the Copper Age on a westward movement to Iberia?
Of course, it is possible.

What timeframe are you saying R1b was possibly bottled up along the Tyrrhenian Coast? and what forms of R1b was it during those times?

I think you are saying an important rationale is that H1 and H3 are correlated with R1b. I've never been able to get any across the board correlations of R1b with any mt DNA other than it is clear that my DNA "H" is ubiquitous.

TigerMW
05-31-2013, 02:02 PM
- L23* (or should we say Z2105) starts to pick up steam in southern Italy and seems to ride the wave of advance from west to east, which we know is the opposite of L51. L23* variance is highest in the eastern Balkans as per academia.

What study are you citing L23*/Z2105 variance from? Myres has this for L23*:
Pakistan______ AvgVar=0.410 __N=5
Caucasus______ AvgVar=0.292 __N=32
Turkey________ AvgVar=0.277 __N=58
Romania_______ AvgVar=0.264 __N=12
Italy_________ AvgVar=0.253 __N=14
Hungary_______ AvgVar=0.171 __N=7
Switzerland___ AvgVar=0.151 __N=10
Greece________ AvgVar=0.150 __N=15
Slovakia______ AvgVar=0.122 __N=10
Poland________ AvgVar=0.081 __N=7
Bashkir_______ AvgVar=0.046 __N=29

The "predicted" L23*/Z2105 frequency in Italy is highest in far Southern Italy. How does that tie in?
"R1b ht35 in Europe" by Lucotte (2013) has h35 at 21.3% in Calabria and then 14.1% in Napoli but only .5% in Genoa and .9% in Roma and 0 in Milano. I guess you are saying West-Central Italy is the point from where L51 went one way and the Z2105 went the other.

Is there archaeological evidence of movements from Italy to Eastern Balkans?

In this alternative, where do you think the Western R1b would have picked up the Italo-Celtic and and Germanic languages? and from whom?

Where do you think Eastern R1b picked up Armenian languages?


- The only real continuous hotspot that exists for M269(xL23) is in the southern Dinaric Alps.
Or are you saying L23*/Z2105 broke away from the Balkans going eastward into Anatolia while some slopping western to Southern Italy?

Rathna
05-31-2013, 02:16 PM
Are you citing L23*/Z2105 variance per the Myres study?

Is there archaeological evidence of movements from Italy to Eastern Balkans?

The "predicted" L23*/Z2105 frequency in Italy is highest in far Southern Italy. How does that tie in?
"R1b ht35 in Europe" by Lucotte (2013) has h35 at 21.3% in Calabria and then 14.1% in Napoli but only .5% in Genoa and .9% in Roma and 0 in Milano.

Where do you think the Western R1b picked up the Italo-Celtic and and Germanic languages?

Where do you think Eastern R1b picked up Armenian languages?

You know my solution, even though it is hard for you: The Italian Refugium happened during the Younger Dryas, and also R1a-M420 was there and the Indo-European languages. After the irradiation to East, to central Europe and the Balkans. Of mtDNA irradiated from Italy to east I have collected many, and also Malyarchuk indeed.

Of course we should find aDNA in Italy and in Tuscany which is the witness of all this.

TigerMW
05-31-2013, 02:32 PM
... The Italian Refugium happened during the Younger Dryas, and also R1a-M420 was there and the Indo-European languages...


The Younger Dryas stadial, also referred to as the Big Freeze, was a geologically brief (1,300 ± 70 years) period of cold climatic conditions and drought which occurred between approximately 12,800 and 11,500 years BP.
This would be about the tenth and ninth millenium BC

The two major hypotheses that I hear of from the archaeology/linguistic fields are Renfrew's and Mallory's and they don't have PIE being around that early nor anywhere near the vicinity.


Proposed models (for PIE origination) include:
the 4th millennium BC (excluding the Anatolian branch) in Armenia, according to the Armenian hypothesis (proposed in the context of Glottalic theory);
the 5th millennium BC (4th excluding the Anatolian branch) in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, according to Marija Gimbutas's Kurgan hypothesis;
the 6th millennium BC or later in Northern Europe according to Lothar Kilian's and, especially, Marek Zvelebil's models of a broader homeland;
the 6th millennium BC in India, according to Koenraad Elst's Out of India model;
the 7th millennium BC in Ariana/BMAC according to a number of scholars.[who?]
the 7th millennium BC in Anatolia (the 5th, in the Balkans, excluding the Anatolian branch), according to Colin Renfrew's Anatolian hypothesis;
the 7th millennium BC in Anatolia (6th excluding the Anatolian branch), according to glottochronological studies;[6][7][page needed]
before the 10th millennium BC in the Paleolithic Continuity Theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language

I guess that puts you in the Paleolithic Continuity Theory camp. I don't think there are many linguists who support that.

R.Rocca
05-31-2013, 03:03 PM
Are you citing L23*/Z2105 variance per the Myres study?
No...the Bulgarian study from this year (Karachanak) which now has L23* variance as highest in Bulgaria followed by Romania and Iraq.


Is there archaeological evidence of movements from Italy to Eastern Balkans?
No, but we know of close affinities of Rinaldone Culture metallurgy and that of the Aegean. Also, the oft-quoted prototypical Central European Bell Beaker cranial form (planoccipital brachycephalic) makes a presence in two Tyrrhenian cultures during the early Copper Age (Rinaldone and Gaudo) and show up in later Bronze Age groups in places like Armenia. We do have Hererra et al (2012) stating...




Such a scenario may explain the lack of segregation separating Armenians and Europeans that was observed in the network containing only the older lineages, R1b1b*-M269 and R1b1b1*-L23, as these haplogroups may represent remnants of an older European population.


The "predicted" L23*/Z2105 frequency in Italy is highest in far Southern Italy. How does that tie in?

Not sure, but it could be the start of a movement east. We know so far, Italian Z2105 does not share the same downstream markers with those further east.


Where do you think the Western R1b picked up the Italo-Celtic and and Germanic languages?

Of all of the things we discuss, I think linguistics is the biggest red herring, but if I had to guess, Italo-Celtic somewhere in the Alps. Germanic is just too tricky and seems to have formed from many different layers of people over time.


Where do you think Eastern R1b picked up Armenian languages?

I don't know. Unlike Western Europe which is a Centum language, Armenian is a Satem language. That may not always have been the case, but it is probably too far back in time to speculate.

Rathna
05-31-2013, 04:13 PM
I guess that puts you in the Paleolithic Continuity Theory camp. I don't think there are many linguists who support that.

I don’t need linguists. I followed the Trombetti’s theories about the monogenesis of language. He was snobbed in Italy and in the world until the Nostratic theory take him in consideration again, and recently an interesting paper has been published about this. That the Etruscan was not an Indo-European language but a “peri-Indo-European” one (if I can say so: he spoke of “periindoeuropeo”) was the theory of a great Italian linguist like Giacomo Devoto, and if Indo-European and Etruscan presuppose the same origin, we could go back to those times.
Try to think if Etruscan *puplu and your “cycle” had the same origin!
But in this case I think that Genetics will demonstrate this better than linguistic theories. It is useless I remember you what I have written many times also in this forum.

TigerMW
05-31-2013, 04:24 PM
I don’t need linguists. I followed the Trombetti’s theories about the monogenesis of language. He was snobbed in Italy and in the world until the Nostratic theory take him in consideration again, and recently an interesting paper has been published about this. That the Etruscan was not an Indo-European language but a “peri-Indo-European” one (if I can say so: he spoke of “periindoeuropeo”) was the theory of a great Italian linguist like Giacomo Devoto, and if Indo-European and Etruscan presuppose the same origin, we could go back to those times.
Try to think if Etruscan *puplu and your “cycle” had the same origin!
But in this case I think that Genetics will demonstrate this better than linguistic theories. It is useless I remember you what I have written many times also in this forum.

Okay. These theories are not ones I hear discussed a lot.


He (Trombetti) is best known as an advocate of the doctrine of monogenesis, according to which all of the world's languages go back to a single common ancestral language. His arguments for monogenesis were first presented in his book L'unità d'origine del linguaggio, published in 1905. This doctrine is still extremely controversial.

R.Rocca
05-31-2013, 04:47 PM
BTW, also from the Boattini paper, we have the following...


In fact, in contrast to mtDNA age estimates, almost all Y-chromosome estimates fall between late Neolithic and the Bronze Age.

Like Razyn said before, it could be a case of handsome R1b types sweeping the long established Italian "H" ladies off their feet.

Rathna
05-31-2013, 04:55 PM
Okay. These theories are not ones I hear discussed a lot.

Of course one thing is the monogenesis of the languages (but if we believe that all the people out of Africa derive from a little group of people it shouldn’t be unbelievable to believe to the monogenesis at least of the language out of Africa) and another is the Nostratic theory. The monogenesis, even though true, shouldn’t be easy to demonstrate because after 60,000 years or more all the languages have changed dramatically their matter, but this recent paper about Nostratic believes having demonstrated that some parts of the speech are still recognizable, and I think that this is true.
I don’t know if you read that paper about the migration from South India to Australia about 4200 years ago demonstrated by a genetic point of view. Trombetti had written about the link of some Australian languages and the Dravidian ones of South India. The link was true, only that it was probably due to a recent migration and not to a far link. But Trombetti was indeed a genial linguist, who spoke tens of languages. Unfortunately his books are written in Italian and a few are lucky like me to be able to read them.

TigerMW
05-31-2013, 05:26 PM
Since "Out of Iberia" had its own thread, "Out of Italy" should too.

TigerMW
05-31-2013, 05:42 PM
...
Not sure, but it could be the start of a movement east. We know so far, Italian Z2105 does not share the same downstream markers with those further east.
Are you saying that Italian L23*/Z2105 is of higher diversity than those to the east? You must be talking about L584 and L277, right? That's probably a good point. Where is the true R1b-Z2105* (L584- L277-)? I guess we should include where are the L150.2- too? although that one makes me queezy.

TigerMW
05-31-2013, 05:52 PM
You know my solution, even though it is hard for you: The Italian Refugium happened during the Younger Dryas, and also R1a-M420 was there and the Indo-European languages. After the irradiation to East, to central Europe and the Balkans. Of mtDNA irradiated from Italy to east I have collected many, and also Malyarchuk indeed.

Of course we should find aDNA in Italy and in Tuscany which is the witness of all this.

I think you've explained this before, but how do some of M269's brothers and cousins fit into this? M73, M335, P297x and V88? Did they break off pre-Neolithic?

Help me clarify this, but this is where there is a difference between Rocca's Italian alternative. He is proposing a Neolithic presence for R1b there, but not necessarily prior to that.

Rathna appears to be proposing a longer presence for R1b in Italy, going back to the Paleolithic. Correct?

R.Rocca
05-31-2013, 05:59 PM
Are you saying that Italian L23*/Z2105 is of higher diversity than those to the east? You must be talking about L584 and L277, right? That's probably a good point. Where is the true R1b-Z2105* (L584- L277-)? I guess we should include where are the L150.2- too? although that one makes me queezy.

Actually the only true R1b-Z2105* (L584- L277-) that I know of is 1000 Genomes sample NA18645. Needless to say, he would point to the complete opposite of a west-east scenario as he is a Han Chinese from Beijing!!!

TigerMW
05-31-2013, 06:08 PM
Actually the only true R1b-Z2105* (L584- L277-) that I know of is 1000 Genomes sample NA18645. Needless to say, he would point to the complete opposite of a west-east scenario as he is a Han Chinese from Beijing!!!

Oh boy. I guess he got lost with Marco Polo and the M335 guy from Zhong's research ("Extended Y-chromosome investigation suggests post-Glacial migrations of modern humans into East Asia via the northern route") where he found M335 in Yunnan, in southeast China, on the border with Vietnam.
;)
I was going to have a glass of wine later, but I think will make that a scotch. Well, I guess it should be grappa.

Silesian
05-31-2013, 06:32 PM
Ht-35 samples Asian variants?

R1b (ht35) Haplotype #11-#12

Piazza Armerina, Italy 3.33
Krusevo, Macedonia [Aromun] 2.33
Osaka, Central Japan 1.00
Bialystok, Poland [Tatars] .80
Sicily, Southern Italy .50
Malaysia [Han Chinese] .38
Sao Paulo, Brazil [Europeans] .22
Argentina [Europeans] .16

R1b (ht35) Haplotype #12

Yining/Xinjiang, China [Uigur]
.93
Taiwan [Han]


http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_ht35.htm#14_13_X_23_11_13_12_X

TigerMW
05-31-2013, 07:48 PM
I see Dienekes has reviewed the paper, "Genetic structure and different population strata in Italy" by Boattini (2013).
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html

Italy is a big place that should be dissected.

Our results show that the Y-chromosomal genetic diversity of Italy is not clinal but structured in three geographical areas: North-Western Italy (NWI), South-Eastern Italy (SEI) and Sardinia (SAR)
...
However, the structure observed for paternal lineages in continental Italy and Sicily was not characterised by North-South gradients as previously described: our results show a NWI-SEI clustering (Figure 1a), suggesting a shared genetic background between Southern Italy and the Adriatic coast from one side, and between Northern Italy and Tuscany from the other side.

The one that surprised me was the relatively high frequency of L21 in Bologna, 10.3%. It is time for the grappa! Italy sounds like more fun than the North Iranian Plateau.

SRY2627 was lower across the board than I thought, but U152 and L2 were the prominent R1b players as Richard R has pointed out already. P312xU152xL21 was not huge but does show up in decent numbers as far south as Central Italy. so DF27xSRY2627 might have been a decent player. I don't think U106 broke 5% anywhere except Sicily, and just barely.

Only M269xL11 and U152 could make much of a dent in South Italy (the boot), Sicily and Sardinia with M269xL11 leading the way.

alan
05-31-2013, 08:52 PM
L23XL51 may be highest in southern Italy but that area also represents the western edge of the higher frequency block. It looks very like a welling up on the edge to me. The distribution is highly suggestive of a route into Italy via Albania for this clade. The variance points to the area around the Black Sea to me.

I also am now wondering (on the basis of a recent post on variance) if the truly L51 ancestral part of L23* is scarse because L51 is closer in age to L23* than previously thought and will be very hard to find. It would be interesting if L51* and L23* represent two roughly contemporary thrusts west that crossed into western Europe by two routes-along the Alps and a more southerly route across the Adriatic.

Jean M
06-01-2013, 01:24 PM
Apologies for cross-posting, Mike. Please feel free to remove this post, if you feel it better fits the thread on R1b and mtDNA H.


I see Dienekes has reviewed the paper, "Genetic structure and different population strata in Italy" by Boattini (2013).
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html


He sensibly points out re the mtDNA estimated dates:


I am not sure the data can be interpreted as supportive of the refugium hypothesis; they are consistent with it, but might also be consistent with the "pre-existent diversity" during colonization, as the authors themselves mention. I often give the example of Paleolithic TMRCAs for European mtDNA in the Americas, even though the actual arrival of that mtDNA was almost certainly post-1492. In any case, ancient DNA studies will eventually sort out who was where when.
This paper is another nail in the coffin of the old idea that H1 and H3 spread from Iberia in the Mesolithic, but that idea has been tottering for a while, as estimated dates for H keep shrinking, and the highest variance for H1 and H3 turn out to be elsewhere. Most importantly, the better tests on aDNA get, the more they exclude contamination, improve methods and gain longer stretches of mtDNA, the more confident we get that Mesolithic and earlier mtDNA in Europe excludes H, or that it was exceedingly rare.

Jean M
06-01-2013, 01:35 PM
Vince Vizachero made the point years ago that, although Italy was indeed an Ice-Age refugium, it did not contribute as much as other European refugia to the re-population of Northern Europe, being bottled in by the Alps. Boattini et al recognise that the only really good evidence for Mesolithic human spread from Italy is mitochondrial haplogroup U5b3. That seems to have expanded along the coast (Pala 2009).

alan
06-01-2013, 02:12 PM
Vince Vizachero made the point years ago that, although Italy was indeed an Ice-Age refugium, it did not contribute as much as other European refugia to the re-population of Northern Europe, being bottled in by the Alps. Boattini et al recognise that the only really good evidence for Mesolithic human spread from Italy is mitochondrial haplogroup U5b3. That seems to have expanded along the coast (Pala 2009).

I recall that conversation, as you say many many years ago. One thing I recall thinking was that the northern two-thirds of of the Adriatic didnt exist when the sea level was much lower so no coastal resources in eastern Italy until you were further south. Also of course a potential 'doggerland' type sumerged plain like that between the higher land may have been very attractive (this is of course very speculative)

http://bonesandskulls.co.uk/2012/12/29/adriatic-refugium/

I cant seem to source a really good set of maps of the central Med. coasts in this period on the web.

alan
06-01-2013, 02:20 PM
Actually this is not a bad map of the central Med. at the LGM. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/8/56/figure/F1


The plain that is now much of the Adriatic must have once features the Po running south through it as well as many much longer rivers than we see today in east Italy and the west Balkans. The west Balkans of today in particular must have not been too attractive due to the mountains and its hard not to think the paper I posted about the best hunter-gatherer-fisher lands (and the old coastline) of the Adriatic having been lost is interesting. The subsequent inundation of the land only left short rump rivers (other than the Po) in Italy

http://www.mapsofworld.com/italy/maps/italy-river-map.jpg

but there must have been an impressive network of long rivers draining into the Adriatic plain and then south to the LGM north shore of the Adriatic.

GailT
06-01-2013, 02:29 PM
In the new Boattini et al paper, they find 5.43% mtDNA U5, and this is very similar to the 5.8% U5 found in Asturians and Basques (if you exclude the 12% U5b1f in Basques, which probably is a result of drift or a founder effect).

For the 3 language groups in the 2012 Behar et al paper on Basque mtDNA, excluding U5b1f, we have:

Language U5 sample 
Basque 35 599 5.8%
French 9 164 5.5%
Castillian 10 145 6.9%

Maybe the fact that U5 is so uniform across the region says something about the population history? I'd like to compare the Italian samples by U5 subclade, but it seems they did not include mtDNA haplotypes in the supplement.

MJost
06-01-2013, 06:57 PM
I loaded the Boattini 2013 study Y-Haplotypes (Table S2) into my TRMCA Estimator for those who wish to play with the data. I did convert DYS389ii to b as I have the 389b mutation rate loaded. Note that the HGs are the Isogg 2009. I set the spreadsheet to 111 markers with Multicopy markers added. Or use 111 marker Bird's q Stable STRs option which will use only 10 STRs of the study's Haplotype STRs data set provided. Bird's stable STRs used: 390, 391, 439. 458, 437, 448, H4, 456, 438 & 635

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNLWJoS1AxSHBCcmc/edit?usp=sharing

MJost

R.Rocca
06-01-2013, 07:04 PM
Actually this is not a bad map of the central Med. at the LGM. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/8/56/figure/F1


The plain that is now much of the Adriatic must have once features the Po running south through it as well as many much longer rivers than we see today in east Italy and the west Balkans. The west Balkans of today in particular must have not been too attractive due to the mountains and its hard not to think the paper I posted about the best hunter-gatherer-fisher lands (and the old coastline) of the Adriatic having been lost is interesting. The subsequent inundation of the land only left short rump rivers (other than the Po) in Italy

http://www.mapsofworld.com/italy/maps/italy-river-map.jpg

but there must have been an impressive network of long rivers draining into the Adriatic plain and then south to the LGM north shore of the Adriatic.

Here is another...

http://www.pantalica.org/_/rsrc/1318526744341/Quaternario.gif?height=590&width=438

alan
06-01-2013, 07:37 PM
Here is another...

http://www.pantalica.org/_/rsrc/1318526744341/Quaternario.gif?height=590&width=438

Cheers. Do you know of any papers in English on the Italian upper Palaeolithic. All I recall off the top of my head is that there was an epigravettian culture but in general its never been seen as a major player in the repopulation of Europe after the LGM which has always seemed a bit odd to me even if its correct. I also recall that the idea of Balkans refugia that was once popular with geneticists has never really had much support as a significant player by archaeologists. Maybe I ma beig naive but a retreat into mountainous areas like much of the Balkans and I suppose a significant amount of Italy too during very cold periods always seemed unlikely to me. Perhaps the Adriatic Plain was the missing regugium and explains the lackk of similar in the Balkans and Italy. There is a peak of haplogroup I on the east side of the north Adriatic around Croatia. Would that seems a plausible retreat area for Adriatic Plain hunters as the sea level rose again? IS there anything similarly interesting on the Italian side (NE Italy I suppose)?

Rathna
06-01-2013, 07:41 PM
Actually the only true R1b-Z2105* (L584- L277-) that I know of is 1000 Genomes sample NA18645. Needless to say, he would point to the complete opposite of a west-east scenario as he is a Han Chinese from Beijing!!!

Let me understand, Richard. Of R-Z2105+ and L277-/L584- is plenty Europe. I am surely one of them: tested Z2105+ by FTDNA and L277- and L584- by 23andme (see “Adriano Squecco’s spreadsheet”). Like me are my son (of course) and my acquired cousin Giorgio Tognarelli (see always Adriano Squecco). But many on the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” are tested like me, one is Silesian and many others you may find there.
I understood that you have some element about the other SNPs from Z2106 to Z2110, I haven’t tested of course not having done Geno 2.0. Varipapa is Z2110+, but he is an Italian of Arberesh origin, coming from the Balkans.

If you haven’t some proof of the SNPs from Z2106 to Z2110, to say that only this Chinese (whom I presuppose descendant of a Roman soldier of the Crassus Army like another Hui who matches me in his STRs) is R-Z2105+ and L277-/L584- is clearly a great mistake.

R.Rocca
06-01-2013, 10:33 PM
Let me understand, Richard. Of R-Z2105+ and L277-/L584- is plenty Europe. I am surely one of them: tested Z2105+ by FTDNA and L277- and L584- by 23andme (see “Adriano Squecco’s spreadsheet”). Like me are my son (of course) and my acquired cousin Giorgio Tognarelli (see always Adriano Squecco). But many on the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” are tested like me, one is Silesian and many others you may find there.
I understood that you have some element about the other SNPs from Z2106 to Z2110, I haven’t tested of course not having done Geno 2.0. Varipapa is Z2110+, but he is an Italian of Arberesh origin, coming from the Balkans.

If you haven’t some proof of the SNPs from Z2106 to Z2110, to say that only this Chinese (whom I presuppose descendant of a Roman soldier of the Crassus Army like another Hui who matches me in his STRs) is R-Z2105+ and L277-/L584- is clearly a great mistake.

You are right, what I meant to say is, of all of the full sequences, there is only a Han Chinese as a remaining Z2103/Z2105*. With a few billion men on the planet, I'm sure others will be found.

TigerMW
06-03-2013, 03:32 PM
- L23* (or should we say Z2105) starts to pick up steam in southern Italy and seems to ride the wave of advance from west to east, which we know is the opposite of L51. L23* variance is highest in the eastern Balkans as per academia.


What study are you citing L23*/Z2105 variance from? Myres has this for L23*:
Pakistan______ AvgVar=0.410 __N=5
Caucasus______ AvgVar=0.292 __N=32
Turkey________ AvgVar=0.277 __N=58
Romania_______ AvgVar=0.264 __N=12
Italy_________ AvgVar=0.253 __N=14
Hungary_______ AvgVar=0.171 __N=7
Switzerland___ AvgVar=0.151 __N=10
Greece________ AvgVar=0.150 __N=15
Slovakia______ AvgVar=0.122 __N=10
Poland________ AvgVar=0.081 __N=7
Bashkir_______ AvgVar=0.046 __N=29


Richard R cited the Karachanak study, "Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry" (2013). Here is how they describe the situation.

The network of Hg R-L23* is characterized by multiple reticulations, which confirm that this haplogroup includes subclades
yet to be discovered [37]. The frequency and variance distributions of R-L23 (data not shown), together with its age variation, locate the most ancient presence of this lineage in the Circum-Pontic region, where similar estimates, coinciding with the post-glacial period, are registered: 16.867 kya in Eastern Bulgaria, 14.361 kya in Romania, 14.063 kya in the Caucasus and 13.662 kya in Anatolia. We abstain from premature conclusions on the coalescent estimate in Eastern Bulgaria since a significant portion of this value derives from a very different singleton haplotype whose exclusion substantially decreases the age estimate to 9.364 kya.

These ages were not based on germ-line mutation rates so I disagree with them, but their relative nature might still be instructive.

It makes me nervous that their data set was so small that a single unique haplotype affects the estimates significantly. On the other hand, an unusual haplotype is something of interest anyway. I don't want to argue by exception (a single haplotype or two) but it is something to file in the back of your mind in the discussion. We should likewise note that the Myres data set for L23xL51 is quite limited too, with the possible exception of the Caucasus and Turkey. Myres didn't even estimate L23xL51 variance/coalescence for Bulgaria and Romania that I can see.

Anyway, my current conclusion is that some area immediately adjacent to the Black Sea is likely to be some kind of origin or launch point for R1b-L23. The east, south and west are all well covered with L23xL51. The north side doesn't present us much evidence but I wouldn't rule that out since Alan has cited that their have been near total population replacements on the north side of the Black Sea, even in recent history.

Perhaps Karachanak's terminology is appropriate when they say "... the most ancient presence of this lineage (R-L23) in the Circum-Pontic region".

I still think an out of Italy Copper age launch of R1b or many elements of R1b, is an alternative. I just don't think that L23xL51 came out of there. Of course by the same reasoning I would use, others could argue that L51xL11's presence west of the Alps pulls L23's origin that direction (and away from the Black Sea area). I think the finding of L51xL11 east of the Alps, particularly if we find 426=12 types, would be important.... oh yes, I should add the standard "we need the ancient DNA" comment.:)

R.Rocca
06-03-2013, 06:29 PM
Richard R cited the Karachanak study, "Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry" (2013). Here is how they describe the situation.


These ages were not based on germ-line mutation rates so I disagree with them, but their relative nature might still be instructive.

It makes me nervous that their data set was so small that a single unique haplotype affects the estimates significantly. On the other hand, an unusual haplotype is something of interest anyway. I don't want to argue by exception (a single haplotype or two) but it is something to file in the back of your mind in the discussion. We should likewise note that the Myres data set for L23xL51 is quite limited too, with the possible exception of the Caucasus and Turkey. Myres didn't even estimate L23xL51 variance/coalescence for Bulgaria and Romania that I can see.

Anyway, my current conclusion is that some area immediately adjacent to the Black Sea is likely to be some kind of origin or launch point for R1b-L23. The east, south and west are all well covered with L23xL51. The north side doesn't present us much evidence but I wouldn't rule that out since Alan has cited that their have been near total population replacements on the north side of the Black Sea, even in recent history.

Perhaps Karachanak's terminology is appropriate when they say "... the most ancient presence of this lineage (R-L23) in the Circum-Pontic region".

I still think an out of Italy Copper age launch of R1b or many elements of R1b, is an alternative. I just don't think that L23xL51 came out of there. Of course by the same reasoning I would use, others could argue that L51xL11's presence west of the Alps pulls L23's origin that direction (and away from the Black Sea area). I think the finding of L51xL11 east of the Alps, particularly if we find 426=12 types, would be important.... oh yes, I should add the standard "we need the ancient DNA" comment.:)

The only thing I can figure is than an STR value in a certain lineage is unstable. I have observed this in the case of U152+Z56+Z144+Z145+Z146+ where the DYS385b values dance around from sample to sample, mostly 2, 3 or 4 repeats higher than the Z56 modal of 14. Almost like it's not comfortable being that high.

Either way, It is difficult to speculate what exactly they mean since they only list 3 eastern Bulgarian L23* haplotypes and one is very different than the other two. Sadly, they only provide data for 247 haplotypes out of the total 808 samples.

Rathna
06-03-2013, 07:24 PM
The only thing I can figure is than an STR value in a certain lineage is unstable. I have observed this in the case of U152+Z56+Z144+Z145+Z146+ where the DYS385b values dance around from sample to sample, mostly 2, 3 or 4 repeats higher than the Z56 modal of 14.

I have explained this by my third point of my theory: 3) sometime a mutation goes for the tangent instead of 1) around the modal [2) is that there is a tendency of all mutations to the modal value].
Everyone is free to accept or not this theory. Anyway this marks the importance to take in consideration the haplotypes in all our calculations, because they are different lines which had different outcomes.
Glad to read above that Mikewww recognized the importance of taking in consideration the outliers (they are too these lines even though with a few descendants) I spoke about as to the Boattini’s paper.

alan
06-03-2013, 08:08 PM
Richard R cited the Karachanak study, "Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry" (2013). Here is how they describe the situation.


These ages were not based on germ-line mutation rates so I disagree with them, but their relative nature might still be instructive.

It makes me nervous that their data set was so small that a single unique haplotype affects the estimates significantly. On the other hand, an unusual haplotype is something of interest anyway. I don't want to argue by exception (a single haplotype or two) but it is something to file in the back of your mind in the discussion. We should likewise note that the Myres data set for L23xL51 is quite limited too, with the possible exception of the Caucasus and Turkey. Myres didn't even estimate L23xL51 variance/coalescence for Bulgaria and Romania that I can see.

Anyway, my current conclusion is that some area immediately adjacent to the Black Sea is likely to be some kind of origin or launch point for R1b-L23. The east, south and west are all well covered with L23xL51. The north side doesn't present us much evidence but I wouldn't rule that out since Alan has cited that their have been near total population replacements on the north side of the Black Sea, even in recent history.

Perhaps Karachanak's terminology is appropriate when they say "... the most ancient presence of this lineage (R-L23) in the Circum-Pontic region".

I still think an out of Italy Copper age launch of R1b or many elements of R1b, is an alternative. I just don't think that L23xL51 came out of there. Of course by the same reasoning I would use, others could argue that L51xL11's presence west of the Alps pulls L23's origin that direction (and away from the Black Sea area). I think the finding of L51xL11 east of the Alps, particularly if we find 426=12 types, would be important.... oh yes, I should add the standard "we need the ancient DNA" comment.:)

The paper on Tyrol showed something like 15% of L51* in the former Romance speaking southern area of East Tyrol. That is western Austria so that is somewhat further east than the previously identified SE France/NW Italy peak. In the formerly Slavic northern partof east Tyrole the L51* dropped dramatically. That suggests L51* is ancient and has a hotspot that cannot be explained by Slavs or Germanics and must relate to the prehistoric population of the area.

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

Tyrol was part of the Celtic Noricum as well as partly in Raetia. Wiki page on history of Tyrol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tyrol