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J1 DYS388=13
02-15-2017, 08:46 AM
"...Thus, it appears that the transition from proto-Celtic to Celtic culture in these regions, and the subsequent spread of Celtic culture to Britain during the La Tène period, may have been primarily a cultural transition."

http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/was-celtic-transition-demic.html

rms2
02-15-2017, 12:41 PM
Pretty anachronistic, IMHO.



The gene pools of Celtic Europe changes much earlier in the late Neolithic and the early Bronze age, not during the Iron Age when the Celts appeared.


How many people still think the Celts first "appeared" during the Iron Age? How many people think Celtic culture first spread to Britain with La Tene?

Jessie
02-15-2017, 01:08 PM
Pretty anachronistic, IMHO.



How many people still think the Celts first "appeared" during the Iron Age? How many people think Celtic culture first spread to Britain with La Tene?

There are a lot of anachronistic things online. The majority of people aren't aware of all the new information becoming available through genetics. With the internet as well a lot of older stuff will be circulating around forever.

J1 DYS388=13
02-15-2017, 01:19 PM
I hesitated before posting it.

I should have posted it on a forum about teeth instead, if there is one.

Jessie
02-15-2017, 02:00 PM
I hesitated before posting it.

I should have posted it on a forum about teeth instead, if there is one.

No reason not to post it. It is an interesting topic for discussion.

Jean M
02-15-2017, 02:21 PM
How many people still think the Celts first "appeared" during the Iron Age? How many people think Celtic culture first spread to Britain with La Tene?

Loads of them. And those people who define Celtic as "La Tene Culture" are naturally going to be confused when they find that the big population replacement in Britain actually comes with Bell Beaker, rather than La Tene. We have had one round of this already in the reaction of the Irish media to the Cassidy 2015 paper. Some produced headlines to the effect that there was change before the Celts arrived. I expect it to take some considerable time for the findings of Cassidy 2015 and similar to filter into university textbooks and then into schoolbooks. Which will still leave an older generation educated in the Celtic = La Tene thinking. It is not going to go away overnight.

vettor
02-15-2017, 05:15 PM
Loads of them. And those people who define Celtic as "La Tene Culture" are naturally going to be confused when they find that the big population replacement in Britain actually comes with Bell Beaker, rather than La Tene. We have had one round of this already in the reaction of the Irish media to the Cassidy 2015 paper. Some produced headlines to the effect that there was change before the Celts arrived. I expect it to take some considerable time for the findings of Cassidy 2015 and similar to filter into university textbooks and then into schoolbooks. Which will still leave an older generation educated in the Celtic = La Tene thinking. It is not going to go away overnight.

Strange how there is no association with the older Celtic=Hallstatt ................but they use the younger Celtic=La Tene

Maybe its to do with location , Halstatt= East Austria and La Tene = Switzerland .........closeness to Britain might mean more accurate theories

Jean M
02-15-2017, 06:08 PM
Strange how there is no association with the older Celtic=Hallstatt ................but they use the younger Celtic=La Tene Maybe its to do with location , Halstatt= East Austria and La Tene = Switzerland .........closeness to Britain might mean more accurate theories


The place named Hallstatt gave its name to a culture called Hallstatt, simply because the first items of that culture happened to be found there. The site is not the same as the culture. It is just one site of that type.
The place called La Tene in Switzerland gave its name to a culture called La Tene, simply because the first items of that culture happened to be found there. The site is not the same as the culture. It is just one site of that type.
These two cultures followed each other in Central Europe. Some Hallstatt material came to Britain. Some La Tene material came to Britain.
The La Tene culture was identified in the 19th century with the Celts, because it was in the right place and time to be linked to one the best-known references to Keltoi (i.e. Herodotus said that they lived around the head of the Danube), and because some La Tene cuture material was found in the remains of an Etruscan site, and the Romans said that the Celts/Gauls took the Etruscan towns of that area.
There is a long history of describing La Tene art as Celtic art. This has fixed the idea of La Tene = Celtic in the minds of many people.

Megalophias
02-15-2017, 06:36 PM
This is a recent Master's thesis from University of Fairbanks. M. Anctil, 2016. Ancient Celts: myth, invention, or reality? Dental affinities among continental and non-continental Celtic groups (https://scholarworks.alaska.edu/handle/11122/6802)

'Celtic' is being used here to refer to Hallstatt/La Tene material cultural styles, which is somewhat out of favour these days but far from gone, as Jean says. The author is not assuming that the connection of Hallstatt with linguistic Proto-Celts is actually correct.

The populations are: "Proto-Celts" - Hallstatt D phase (675-450 BC), from Hallstatt, Austria, n=30; "Continental Celts" - La Tene period (420-240 BC), from Musingen, Switzerland, n=33; "Non-Continental Celts" - Middle Iron Age (400-100 BC), Yorkshire, n=31; "comparative sample" - Iron Age (650-300 BC), from Pontecagnano, Campania (outside of the La Tene area), n=31. The Yorkshire samples are from five different graveyards which are noted for having burial rituals (Arras culture) similar to continental ones of the time (square barrows, cart burials) and has been linked to immigration from France.

Anway, all these populations turned out to be biologically distinct. So the bearers of Hallstatt, La Tene, and Arras cultures were not all one closely-related group. Which I guess they could have been in principle, but finding out that they weren't is not exactly shocking and doesn't really tell us that much about the spread of Celtic languages. It doesn't even tell us whether the Arras culture elite were immigrants, since they presumably wouldn't have come from Switzerland anyway.

MitchellSince1893
02-15-2017, 07:31 PM
This is a recent Master's thesis from University of Fairbanks. M. Anctil, 2016. Ancient Celts: myth, invention, or reality? Dental affinities among continental and non-continental Celtic groups (https://scholarworks.alaska.edu/handle/11122/6802)

The R1b-S28/U152 haplotype is found in geographical areas where the historical,
linguistic, and archaeological evidence signifies the presence of the La Tene and Hallstatt Celts
(Faux, 2008). The highest frequencies of the R-S28/U152 sub-type occur in France, northern
Italy, and France. While lower frequencies occur in southern Germany, Switzerland, the Czech
Republic, Slovakia, and Austria (Faux, 2008). As the high frequencies of this sub-type are in
southwestern France and northern Italy, and decreasing progressively to the north, west, and east
in the rest of Europe, this haplogroup has been dubbed the Southern European R1b haplotype or
the Alpine haplotype (Busby et al., 2012; Cruciani et al., 2011; De Beule, 2009; Lucotte, 2015;
Myres et al., 2007, 2011).

Although referenced, probably should use data from Myres and Busby studies for U152 present day distribution as Switzerland and Northern Italy have the highest known percentages for U152. Also typo in quoted text as France is mentioned twice in same sentence.

Author may have misinterpreted the Lucotte data which IIRC shows a map of U152 as a percentage of R1b (highest in southern France) as opposed to all haplogroups.

Megalophias
02-15-2017, 08:03 PM
The thesis was quite badly edited and has some errors, but hey, it has one author who is an overworked student, we can't expect a polished paper.

vettor
02-16-2017, 05:47 AM
This is a recent Master's thesis from University of Fairbanks. M. Anctil, 2016. Ancient Celts: myth, invention, or reality? Dental affinities among continental and non-continental Celtic groups (https://scholarworks.alaska.edu/handle/11122/6802)

'Celtic' is being used here to refer to Hallstatt/La Tene material cultural styles, which is somewhat out of favour these days but far from gone, as Jean says. The author is not assuming that the connection of Hallstatt with linguistic Proto-Celts is actually correct.

The populations are: "Proto-Celts" - Hallstatt D phase (675-450 BC), from Hallstatt, Austria, n=30; "Continental Celts" - La Tene period (420-240 BC), from Musingen, Switzerland, n=33; "Non-Continental Celts" - Middle Iron Age (400-100 BC), Yorkshire, n=31; "comparative sample" - Iron Age (650-300 BC), from Pontecagnano, Campania (outside of the La Tene area), n=31. The Yorkshire samples are from five different graveyards which are noted for having burial rituals (Arras culture) similar to continental ones of the time (square barrows, cart burials) and has been linked to immigration from France.

Anway, all these populations turned out to be biologically distinct. So the bearers of Hallstatt, La Tene, and Arras cultures were not all one closely-related group. Which I guess they could have been in principle, but finding out that they weren't is not exactly shocking and doesn't really tell us that much about the spread of Celtic languages. It doesn't even tell us whether the Arras culture elite were immigrants, since they presumably wouldn't have come from Switzerland anyway.

I recently also stated that they where not truly connected.............I said it seems to me that gallic-celts in SE germany and their association with Halstatt are different from the gallic-celts in SW germany and their association with La Tene

rms2
02-16-2017, 11:41 PM
This was posted by Dubhthach elsewhere, but it is applicable here, especially when Dr. Koch talks about "the dog that didn't bark".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub5izFOdtDs

rms2
02-17-2017, 06:33 PM
This was posted by Dubhthach elsewhere, but it is applicable here, especially when Dr. Koch talks about "the dog that didn't bark".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub5izFOdtDs

Listen to the one minute from 10 through 11 minutes in, where Dr. Koch says regarding ancient dna that "there is a lot more stuff in the pipeline" and that it supports the conclusion that there was discontinuity between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age.

Jean M
02-17-2017, 09:23 PM
This was posted by Dubhthach elsewhere, but it is applicable here...

Thanks. I didn't see this when Dubhthach posted it. Very good talk.

DNA. He's got a solid grip on the recent aDNA papers and their implications.
Language. His dismissal (as a fellow linguist) of Schrijver's postulation of an incredibly late date for the arrival of Celtic into Ireland was very welcome. I had also thought the same. If it was that late, why was there no recollection of it? But also why are there so few non-IE place-names. Either none or almost none. I had also noted Mallory's name on the Cassidy paper, and presumed that meant a change in his thinking since The Origins of the Irish.
Mythology. I was particularly interested in the mythology paper by John Carey that he talked about. Had not read that.

rms2
02-17-2017, 11:19 PM
I was gratified to see his honorable mention of Myles Dillon as someone who picked up on the possibility of an early form of Celtic arriving with the Beaker people. He could have mentioned Henri Hubert and a few others, as well, but it's nice to see Dillon get some credit as having been ahead of his time.

Jean M
02-18-2017, 10:50 AM
I was gratified to see his honorable mention of Myles Dillon as someone who picked up on the possibility of an early form of Celtic arriving with the Beaker people. He could have mentioned Henri Hubert and a few others, as well, but it's nice to see Dillon get some credit as having been ahead of his time.

Anyone can get the full list from Blood of the Celts, note 68 of chapter 2: Hubert 1934, 186; Dillon and Chadwick 1967, 4; Corcoran 1970, 24; Anthony 2007, 367; Cunliffe 2010, 34.

A lecture is not really the place for reading out a lot of references, but Prof. Koch did give out a hand-out sheet, which I presume listed references, so there could have been more there.

rms2
02-18-2017, 12:30 PM
I like this video below because Krause does such a good job explaining the PCA chart.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTY9K1Q_Sbg