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alan
05-31-2013, 09:51 PM
10% of the population according to this paper http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html

Its by far the highest % of L21 in Italy in this survey. I had a look at the Wiki page for Bologna and the only likely historic major input that could have brought L21 was the Celtic tribes who accompanied the Boii to Bologne.

Wiki states

According to the ancient authors, the Boii arrived in northern Italy by crossing the Alps. While of the other the tribes who had come to Italy along with the Boii, the Senones, Lingones and Cenomani are also attested in northern Gaul at the time of the Roman conquest, there is no such clear evidence for the Boii in Gaul. It remains therefore unclear where exactly the Central European origins of the Boii lay, if somewhere in Gaul, Southern Germany or in Bohemia.

The origin of all except perhaps the Boii themselves was within Gaul. Of the groups I think the Cenomani (who alledgedly founded Brescia) may have been very high in L21 if they did indeed come from Maine in NW France (perhaps via a colony of them at Marsielles) as their name suggests. I just cannot see anything in the history of Bolognia which would have brought a lot of L21.

rms2
06-01-2013, 12:34 AM
Interesting!

Do you know what the sample size in Bologna was?

That's a good find. I notice the total number of L21 in that study was 15, if I am reading what Dienekes has correctly. That's not too bad.

Working from the other figures for L21, it looks like about 57% of the total L21+ samples came from Bologna. That's about nine, which means the Bolognese sample must have been around 90 or so (that's me guesstimating without seeing the actual figure from the paper). A sample of 90 is not bad.

alan
06-01-2013, 01:40 AM
I am not usually into pinpointing historic tribes to DNA but I think an L21 hotspot in Bologna really is most likely linked to one of the Gaulish tribes who arrived with the Boii. Odd though it seems, most of these other tribes have names that link them to northern Gaulish tribes, including NW.

Some other tribes of Celts or Cisalpiine Gauls are more likely to have come from the Alpine areas where L21 was scarce. The history of Celts in north Italy is complex.

MacEochaidh
06-01-2013, 07:00 AM
My branch of DF23 supposedly originated in Peidmonte, Italy (Bonnet), so couldn't L21 have originated in Italy? Bonnet believes his line came to The Isles with the Normans and that's why he matches with Greenlee (Scotland), Dougherty (Ireland) and me (Kehoe-Ireland).

alan
06-01-2013, 08:53 AM
and he kicks off with a troll.

jdean
06-01-2013, 09:22 AM
Interesting!

Do you know what the sample size in Bologna was?


Unfortunately Bologna was the smallest by a long way being only 29 and the L21's only comprised of 3 people.

rms2
06-01-2013, 11:25 AM
Unfortunately Bologna was the smallest by a long way being only 29 and the L21's only comprised of 3 people.

Well, that's weird. I guess I was way off with my guesstimating!

I had to assume roughly proportionate sample sizes, which was the only way such guesstimating could be done with the limited info I had. Obviously, they weren't proportionate.

jdean
06-01-2013, 12:34 PM
Well, that's weird. I guess I was way off with my guesstimating!

I had to assume roughly proportionate sample sizes, which was the only way such guesstimating could be done with the limited info I had. Obviously, they weren't proportionate.

I think it's interesting that there's a significantly high level of U152 there as well though, which is carried over into the neighboring areas to the west.

Rathna
06-01-2013, 12:36 PM
It was enough that someone posted a link with Dienekes that the novel writers gave vent to their instinct.
1) this paper was posted before all (at least on the forums I read) by Jean Lohizun on eng.molgen. To it replied Walker (Penna’s half-brother) and me. Dienekes has published the link to this paper after a few days, after that me and many others (above all Richard Rocca to whom I spoke of the paper in a private letter) had spoken of it largely. What has Dienekes added to the paper? Only that he doesn’t believe that there has been an Italian Refugium. If so, how many years did he waste!
2) It has been enough that someone spoke of a largely presence of R-L21 in Bologna, that many spoke of the Boii etc. Roman historians have demonstrated that Boii were defeated by Romans, pretty annihilated and the few remnants came back to Bohemia. If it were true, we should find many R-L21 in Bohemia, but it isn’t so.
3) After someone corrected the data: R-L21 in Bologna are 3 out 29 tested, the others are diffused all over Italy. Then no Boiis etc.
4) Anyway these 15 R-L21 in Italy out of 850 tested surprised me too. Who knows me knows that I have always supported that R-L21 isn’t in Italy at a detectable percentage, being those found of French origin (Waldensians of Piedmont) or of unknown origin and they aren’t to attribute to a certain Italian one. I have spoken so long of the case of Argiedude, who are now DF13*, but who didn’t any SNP upgrade, and I have taken in consideration the possibility that, being I the theorist of the Italian Refugium , also R-L21 might have born in Italy or near it. I spoke of the case of Soncina, a possible ancient R-L21 from the Italian lake Region.
5) Of course we should test these Italians for all the R-L21 SNPs, and it is always open the case of the Jewish Balkan cluster, they took in the Rhine Region or even in Italy. If these Italians sprang up Z251, the thing would be very interesting. But their haplotypes seem pretty usual, and an introgression from some German people after the fall of the Roman Empire is a hypothesis to take in consideration.

These are the haplotypes:
14 Cuneo 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 31 17 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
78 Savona/Genova 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 15 19 11 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
142 Brescia 13 25 14 10 11 15 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
240 Bologna 13 22 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 16 13 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
252 Bologna 13 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
256 Bologna 13 24 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 14 19 12 16 13 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
274 LaSpezia/Massa 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30 18 15 19 11 17 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
285 LaSpezia/Massa 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 18 15 19 11 17 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
509 Campobasso 13 25 14 10 11 15 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 15 13 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
555 Benevento 13 24 14 10 12 15 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
604 Lecce 13 24 14 10 10 11 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
667 Agrigento 13 24 14 12 11 11 12 12 13 13 13 29 18 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
727 Catania 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 19 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
757 Catania 13 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
766 Ragusa/Siracusa 13 24 14 10 12 15 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)



PS. Anyway they are all xM222, thus no children of an Irish monk.

alan
06-01-2013, 02:44 PM
It was enough that someone posted a link with Dienekes that the novel writers gave vent to their instinct.
1) this paper was posted before all (at least on the forums I read) by Jean Lohizun on eng.molgen. To it replied Walker (Penna’s half-brother) and me. Dienekes has published the link to this paper after a few days, after that me and many others (above all Richard Rocca to whom I spoke of the paper in a private letter) had spoken of it largely. What has Dienekes added to the paper? Only that he doesn’t believe that there has been an Italian Refugium. If so, how many years did he waste!
2) It has been enough that someone spoke of a largely presence of R-L21 in Bologna, that many spoke of the Boii etc. Roman historians have demonstrated that Boii were defeated by Romans, pretty annihilated and the few remnants came back to Bohemia. If it were true, we should find many R-L21 in Bohemia, but it isn’t so.
3) After someone corrected the data: R-L21 in Bologna are 3 out 29 tested, the others are diffused all over Italy. Then no Boiis etc.
4) Anyway these 15 R-L21 in Italy out of 850 tested surprised me too. Who knows me knows that I have always supported that R-L21 isn’t in Italy at a detectable percentage, being those found of French origin (Waldensians of Piedmont) or of unknown origin and they aren’t to attribute to a certain Italian one. I have spoken so long of the case of Argiedude, who are now DF13*, but who didn’t any SNP upgrade, and I have taken in consideration the possibility that, being I the theorist of the Italian Refugium , also R-L21 might have born in Italy or near it. I spoke of the case of Soncina, a possible ancient R-L21 from the Italian lake Region.
5) Of course we should test these Italians for all the R-L21 SNPs, and it is always open the case of the Jewish Balkan cluster, they took in the Rhine Region or even in Italy. If these Italians sprang up Z251, the thing would be very interesting. But their haplotypes seem pretty usual, and an introgression from some German people after the fall of the Roman Empire is a hypothesis to take in consideration.

These are the haplotypes:
14 Cuneo 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 31 17 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
78 Savona/Genova 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 15 19 11 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
142 Brescia 13 25 14 10 11 15 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
240 Bologna 13 22 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 16 13 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
252 Bologna 13 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
256 Bologna 13 24 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 14 19 12 16 13 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
274 LaSpezia/Massa 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30 18 15 19 11 17 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
285 LaSpezia/Massa 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 18 15 19 11 17 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
509 Campobasso 13 25 14 10 11 15 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 15 13 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
555 Benevento 13 24 14 10 12 15 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
604 Lecce 13 24 14 10 10 11 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
667 Agrigento 13 24 14 12 11 11 12 12 13 13 13 29 18 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
727 Catania 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 19 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
757 Catania 13 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
766 Ragusa/Siracusa 13 24 14 10 12 15 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)



PS. Anyway they are all xM222, thus no children of an Irish monk.

I actually dont think the Boii themselves would have had much if any L21 because from what we know they were likely one of the more central European tribes originally. I would also say that some other Celtic elements also came from such a source or were Celto-Ligurian and not likely to be L21. That includes of course the pre-Gaulish invasion Celts of north Italy speaking Lepontic. However, the phase that saw the Boii invade was also associated with movement of several other tribes whose namesakes are found in northern Gaul where L21 has a good showing. The sample is rather small but that is hardly unusual in these sortof studies and I dount its entirely chance. I think its pretty well established now that L21 on the continent is mainly found in northern and western France with an overspill just over the Spanish border. It seems to exploited the rivers that flowed from the interior of France to the Atlantic and English Channel. So I think a high count out of L21's real zone does likely represent a move from the L21 zone of France. The shortest route for the Cenomani of NW France (assuming they really were related to the other tribe of that name) would have been down the Rhone starting at its headwaters where they approached the headwaters of the Loire etc and that is indeed suggested by a colony of Cenomani near Marsielles on the route. Of course this is only a hypothesis but I did read a few articles on Bologna and there is no other significant movement into the area from the L21 zone of NW Europe.

alan
06-01-2013, 02:48 PM
It was enough that someone posted a link with Dienekes that the novel writers gave vent to their instinct.
1) this paper was posted before all (at least on the forums I read) by Jean Lohizun on eng.molgen. To it replied Walker (Penna’s half-brother) and me. Dienekes has published the link to this paper after a few days, after that me and many others (above all Richard Rocca to whom I spoke of the paper in a private letter) had spoken of it largely. What has Dienekes added to the paper? Only that he doesn’t believe that there has been an Italian Refugium. If so, how many years did he waste!
2) It has been enough that someone spoke of a largely presence of R-L21 in Bologna, that many spoke of the Boii etc. Roman historians have demonstrated that Boii were defeated by Romans, pretty annihilated and the few remnants came back to Bohemia. If it were true, we should find many R-L21 in Bohemia, but it isn’t so.
3) After someone corrected the data: R-L21 in Bologna are 3 out 29 tested, the others are diffused all over Italy. Then no Boiis etc.
4) Anyway these 15 R-L21 in Italy out of 850 tested surprised me too. Who knows me knows that I have always supported that R-L21 isn’t in Italy at a detectable percentage, being those found of French origin (Waldensians of Piedmont) or of unknown origin and they aren’t to attribute to a certain Italian one. I have spoken so long of the case of Argiedude, who are now DF13*, but who didn’t any SNP upgrade, and I have taken in consideration the possibility that, being I the theorist of the Italian Refugium , also R-L21 might have born in Italy or near it. I spoke of the case of Soncina, a possible ancient R-L21 from the Italian lake Region.
5) Of course we should test these Italians for all the R-L21 SNPs, and it is always open the case of the Jewish Balkan cluster, they took in the Rhine Region or even in Italy. If these Italians sprang up Z251, the thing would be very interesting. But their haplotypes seem pretty usual, and an introgression from some German people after the fall of the Roman Empire is a hypothesis to take in consideration.

These are the haplotypes:
14 Cuneo 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 31 17 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
78 Savona/Genova 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 15 19 11 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
142 Brescia 13 25 14 10 11 15 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
240 Bologna 13 22 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 16 13 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
252 Bologna 13 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
256 Bologna 13 24 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 14 19 12 16 13 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
274 LaSpezia/Massa 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30 18 15 19 11 17 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
285 LaSpezia/Massa 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 18 15 19 11 17 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
509 Campobasso 13 25 14 10 11 15 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 15 13 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
555 Benevento 13 24 14 10 12 15 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
604 Lecce 13 24 14 10 10 11 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
667 Agrigento 13 24 14 12 11 11 12 12 13 13 13 29 18 15 19 12 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
727 Catania 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 19 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
757 Catania 13 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)
766 Ragusa/Siracusa 13 24 14 10 12 15 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 16 12 23 R1b1b2a1b5-L21 (xM222)



PS. Anyway they are all xM222, thus no children of an Irish monk.

BTW, I have posted on another thread about the possibility of a refugium in the now-flooded Adriatic Plain of the LGM period. At that time Italy and the west Balkans were largely the upland fringes of the great plain there that probably featured a long extension of the Po running south as well as long stretches of the perpendicular rivers that today only remain as short rivers in eastern Italy (and I suppose from the west Balkans too but the mountains reach the sea there).

rms2
06-01-2013, 03:30 PM
There could have been an Italian Ice Age/Younger Dryas Refugium. If the climate there was suitable, no doubt there was.

But that doesn't mean there was any R1b in it.

alan
06-01-2013, 04:23 PM
There could have been an Italian Ice Age/Younger Dryas Refugium. If the climate there was suitable, no doubt there was.

But that doesn't mean there was any R1b in it.

I would tend to agree so I have started a thread in the general DNA section on the Italian/Adriatic refugium subject so as to leave the yDNA of any such refugia as an open question. I would actually tend to think the peak in haplogroup I in Croatia and nearby is the most likely remnant of any flooded refugia in the Adriatic basin. Unfortunatley R1b was doing incredibly little before 5000BC and all we have is three clades which took off about that time. However the three clades (M269. M73 and V88) only shared ancestry at a deeper point in time - M269 and M73 around 8-10000BC and V88 with the other two quite a few millenia earlier if the variance is correct. So when the three lines took off c. 4-5000BC M269 and M73 were already maybe 4000 years or so from their common ancestor and V88 hadnt shared a common ancestor with the other two for perhaps 9000 years or so. The question in my mind is whether that sort of separation to common ancestor was reflected in geographical separation OR did they stick around in the same area until 4-5000BC. I suspect the latter because the similar dates of these three lineages suggests that they were subject to similar opportunities/difficulties etc. Otherwise it seems a big coincidence. The only other thing I can think is that the extremely arid snap around 4000BC just simply killed off most of the lineages, only leaving the three main lines.

Rathna
06-01-2013, 04:53 PM
That includes of course the pre-Gaulish invasion Celts of north Italy speaking Lepontic.

A little correction about Lepontii: probably they weren’t Celts come to Italy, but perhaps the remnants of Celt people (separated from Italic languages) before they migrated from Italy to North:

“The majority view[4] (e.g. Lejeune 1971, Koch 2008) is that Lepontic is a distinct Continental Celtic language.[1][2] A minority opinion considers it as simply an early form of Cisalpine Gaulish (or Cisalpine Celtic) and thus a dialect of the Gaulish language (e.g. Eska 1998). An earlier view, which was prevalent for most of the 20th century and until about 1970, regarded Lepontic as a "para-Celtic" western Indo-European language, akin to but not part of Celtic, possibly related to Ligurian (Whatmough 1933 and Pisani 1964). However, Ligurian itself has been considered akin to, but not descended from, Common Celtic, see Kruta 1991 and Stifter 2008.[7][8]
Referring to linguistic arguments as well as archaeological evidence, Schumacher even considers Lepontic a primary branch of Celtic, perhaps even the first language to diverge from Proto-Celtic.[4] In any case, the Lepontic inscriptions are the earliest attestation of any form of Celtic”.

Rathna
06-01-2013, 05:05 PM
But that doesn't mean there was any R1b in it.

Here is all my theory and the thousands of letters I wrote from 2007 on Rootsweb, DNA forum, Worldfamilies, Dienekes' Anthropology blog, Maju's blog, and recently eng.molgen and here. In those letters I carried tons of data and I have always invoked the ancient DNA like a proof and it will decide who was right and who was wrong.

Gioiello/Maliclavelli/Claire (Vernade's daughter, but was I)/Rathna

Rathna
06-01-2013, 05:11 PM
"In any case, the Lepontic inscriptions are the earliest attestation of any form of Celtic”.

But I spoke also of an interpretation of the "Stele di Novilara" like a very ancient form of Celt languages published on "La parola del passato". If true, Italy would have also another remnant of Celt language long before Lepontic (of course as to the language and not the inscription).

History-of-Things
06-02-2013, 06:21 AM
10% of the population according to this paper http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html
I just cannot see anything in the history of Bolognia which would have brought a lot of L21.

One of Europe's greatest universities.

rms2
06-02-2013, 02:09 PM
That might account for a stray L21+ result or two, but not 10.3% (if that figure can be relied on, given such a small sample size).

And "Bologna" is just what they called the sample. The map shows that samples were collected from the surrounding entire region, not just from the city of that name.

MacEochaidh
06-02-2013, 04:03 PM
But I spoke also of an interpretation of the "Stele di Novilara" like a very ancient form of Celt languages published on "La parola del passato". If true, Italy would have also another remnant of Celt language long before Lepontic (of course as to the language and not the inscription).

Lepontic is a younger form of Celtic than the Q-Celtic spoken in Iberia and Ireland. Is there evidence of a Q-Celtic language in Italy? Place names, anything?

R.Rocca
06-02-2013, 04:40 PM
Lepontic is a younger form of Celtic than the Q-Celtic spoken in Iberia and Ireland. Is there evidence of a Q-Celtic language in Italy? Place names, anything?

Ligurian is an intermediate language between Celtic and Italic and if I recall correctly is a "Q" language.

Rathna
06-02-2013, 04:54 PM
Lepontic is a younger form of Celtic than the Q-Celtic spoken in Iberia and Ireland. Is there evidence of a Q-Celtic language in Italy? Place names, anything?

Perhaps you may find an answer here:

Schumacher, Stefan; Schulze-Thulin, Britta; aan de Wiel, Caroline (2004). Die keltischen Primärverben. Ein vergleichendes, etymologisches und morphologisches Lexikon. Innsbruck: Institut für Sprachen und Kulturen der Universität Innsbruck. pp. 84–85.

For what I know, Schumacher is a great linguist who wrote a lot also about Etruscan language. The problem of the Q-Celtic is probably complex, because the initial p- was lost and Q from *Kw became *p also in Italic languages: Latin maintains *Kw (quis) and Osko-Umbrian has p- (pis). Many linguists has hypothesized that the Celtic /p/ from /kw/ was due to the Etruscan influence. That the Tartessian maintains the initial p- has made many linguists hypothesize the Ligurian origin of this form of Celtic language and the more ancientness of the Iberian Celtic as to the Central European one, etc etc.

History-of-Things
06-02-2013, 05:18 PM
That might account for a stray L21+ result or two, but not 10.3% (if that figure can be relied on, given such a small sample size).

And "Bologna" is just what they called the sample. The map shows that samples were collected from the surrounding entire region, not just from the city of that name.

One doesn't excavate a site from the bottom up. Cosmopolitanism is the answer for much in the later medieval and early modern era. The sample is much to small for all of this fuss, anyway.

rms2
06-02-2013, 05:29 PM
I agree about the sample size, but there is no fuss, just some lightweight discussion.

If 10.3% of the male population in and around Bologna is L21+, which I strongly doubt, I don't think the University of Bologna could possibly be the sole or even the chief reason for it.

alan
06-02-2013, 05:33 PM
Perhaps you may find an answer here:

Schumacher, Stefan; Schulze-Thulin, Britta; aan de Wiel, Caroline (2004). Die keltischen Primärverben. Ein vergleichendes, etymologisches und morphologisches Lexikon. Innsbruck: Institut für Sprachen und Kulturen der Universität Innsbruck. pp. 84–85.

For what I know, Schumacher is a great linguist who wrote a lot also about Etruscan language. The problem of the Q-Celtic is probably complex, because the initial p- was lost and Q from *Kw became *p also in Italic languages: Latin maintains *Kw (quis) and Osko-Umbrian has p- (pis). Many linguists has hypothesized that the Celtic /p/ from /kw/ was due to the Etruscan influence. That the Tartessian maintains the initial p- has made many linguists hypothesize the Ligurian origin of this form of Celtic language and the more ancientness of the Iberian Celtic as to the Central European one, etc etc.

I suppose in theory if the shift was down to Etruscan influence we can imagine that before the Etruscans arrived Lepontic was also Q. That doesnt of course mean that they were late Celtic, just that they were influenced by another people. Tradtionally they are thought to have come from Asia Minor or the Aegean in the period 1200-800BC. Raetic in north Italy and eastern Switzerland, Bavaria and adjacent were apparently an offshoot of the Etruscans. I know Ratha doesnt probably agree with this but that is the most popular idea of these peoples at the moment. Its also known from archaeological material the Celts on the north side of the Alps were strongly in contact with the Italian Etruscans in the Hallstatt D period. So, regardless of how long the Etruscans and Raetians were around it is pretty clear that the Celts of the Alps could have been under significant influence from them in the period 800-600BC.


One paper on the trade

Invisible trade: sea piracy and land-based slave trade in the history of Villanovan and Etruscan Italy and France from the ninth to the fifth centuries BC.
Etruscan trade in metalwork, wine, and sundry manufactures is familiar from finds across Mediterranean and Continental Europe (e.g. G. Camporeale, Gli Etruschi fuori d'Etruria, 2001). Organized links with Villanovan and Etruscan Italy (not with Massalia, unimportant in this respect) sustained the HaD and LTA Celtic elites in France (as I suggested in Nash 1985, "Celtic territorial expansion and the Mediterranean world"). Trade simply in raw materials cannot explain this phenomenon, especially in northern France: slave procurement must be factored in. Etruscan piracy and slave dealing are widely acnowledged, usually in passing, but their historical signficance for both Etruria and Central Europe has been severely underplayed. I propose to look into them in some detail.

Another couple of papers on the contacts

http://www.southampton.ac.uk/~counihan/etruscan.pdf

http://www.academia.edu/2330797/Work_notes_on_Etruscan_Devotional_Texts_among_the_ Celts

jdean
06-02-2013, 05:47 PM
I agree about the sample size, but there is no fuss, just some lightweight discussion.

If 10.3% of the male population in and around Bologna is L21+, which I strongly doubt, I don't think the University of Bologna could possibly be the sole or even the chief reason for it.

We had this problem with the Alpes De Haute Provence data in Busby, which should have been interesting but due to the small sample size nobody wanted to over egg it.

In my opinion you are pretty unlikely to accidentally collect this many L21 folk in samples this small from areas low in L21.

R.Rocca
06-02-2013, 05:56 PM
I suppose in theory if the shift was down to Etruscan influence we can imagine that before the Etruscans arrived Lepontic was also Q. That doesnt of course mean that they were late Celtic, just that they were influenced by another people. Tradtionally they are thought to have come from Asia Minor or the Aegean in the period 1200-800BC. Raetic in north Italy and eastern Switzerland, Bavaria and adjacent were apparently an offshoot of the Etruscans. I know Ratha doesnt probably agree with this but that is the most popular idea of these peoples at the moment. Its also known from archaeological material the Celts on the north side of the Alps were strongly in contact with the Italian Etruscans in the Hallstatt D period. So, regardless of how long the Etruscans and Raetians were around it is pretty clear that the Celts of the Alps could have been under significant influence from them in the period 800-600BC.


One paper on the trade

Invisible trade: sea piracy and land-based slave trade in the history of Villanovan and Etruscan Italy and France from the ninth to the fifth centuries BC.
Etruscan trade in metalwork, wine, and sundry manufactures is familiar from finds across Mediterranean and Continental Europe (e.g. G. Camporeale, Gli Etruschi fuori d'Etruria, 2001). Organized links with Villanovan and Etruscan Italy (not with Massalia, unimportant in this respect) sustained the HaD and LTA Celtic elites in France (as I suggested in Nash 1985, "Celtic territorial expansion and the Mediterranean world"). Trade simply in raw materials cannot explain this phenomenon, especially in northern France: slave procurement must be factored in. Etruscan piracy and slave dealing are widely acnowledged, usually in passing, but their historical signficance for both Etruria and Central Europe has been severely underplayed. I propose to look into them in some detail.

Another couple of papers on the contacts

http://www.southampton.ac.uk/~counihan/etruscan.pdf

http://www.academia.edu/2330797/Work_notes_on_Etruscan_Devotional_Texts_among_the_ Celts

I'm not a linguistics expert by any stretch, but I've heard this theory before and think it is highly unlikely given that the groups the Etruscans would have influenced the most - Latins, Ligurians and Venetics all spoke a "Q" language. The ones they influenced the least, the Umbrians and Oscans spoke P-Italic. Hopefully Gioiello can correct me if I'm wrong.

rms2
06-02-2013, 06:05 PM
We had this problem with the Alpes De Haute Provence data in Busby, which should have been interesting but due to the small sample size nobody wanted to over egg it.

In my opinion you are pretty unlikely to accidentally collect this many L21 folk in samples this small from areas low in L21.

I would certainly feel a lot better about it had the sample been at least twice as large. It's too bad they didn't recruit more test subjects.

Rathna
06-02-2013, 06:59 PM
Hopefully Gioiello can correct me if I'm wrong.

Of course it is only a theory. Difficult to demonstrate it, but from the linguistic universals we can say that in every language of the world does happen the passage from /kw/ to /p/ (but may happen also the other way around: Latin “quinque” from *penkwe, and similar probably in Gaelic [
5 cúig còig queig
]). Also Italic languages had these two different derivatives. One of the most interesting hypotheses about the link of Etruscan with Pre-Indo-European is that *puplu is the derivative of *kwekwlo-, the IE form of Latin “cyclus” from Greek κύκλος. But glottology does many progresses and probably also these problems will be solved next.