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sktibo
02-18-2017, 11:03 PM
14122

I'm looking for a chart that shows the percentages of each region in numerical form instead of a pie chart. Does such a thing exist? If no, is it possible to convert a pie or graph chart into numerical form?

Thanks for any help on this, and I hope this is an OK section of the forums to post this request in.

Jessie
02-19-2017, 05:56 AM
This is a percentage list that I've found.

England
Core England
35% North France
22% Denmark-North Germany
15% Germany
10% Brittany
10% Sweden-Norway
8% Belgium
1% France & Spain

Scotland & Northern Ireland
West Scotland/Northern Ireland
33% Brittany
23% Sweden-Norway
18% North France
13% Germany
6% France & Spain
5% Belgium
2% Denmark-North Germany

South Scotland/Northern Ireland
25% Brittany
24% Germany
18% Sweden-Norway
10% Belgium
8% North France
8% France & Spain
7% Denmark-North Germany

North East Scotland
25% Brittany
20% North France
18% Sweden-Norway
17% Germany
11% Belgium
7% Denmark-North Germany
2% France & Spain

Wales
West Wales
36% Brittany
31% Germany
13% France & Spain
8% Sweden-Norway
7% Belgium
5% Denmark-North Germany
0% North France

Cornwall
35% North France
25% Brittany
19% Denmark-North Germany
10% Germany
5% Belgium
4% Sweden-Norway
2% France & Spain

What is quite interesting is that Wales is the only area with 0 North France input.

sktibo
02-19-2017, 06:48 AM
This is a percentage list that I've found.

England
Core England
35% North France
22% Denmark-North Germany
15% Germany
10% Brittany
10% Sweden-Norway
8% Belgium
1% France & Spain

Scotland & Northern Ireland
West Scotland/Northern Ireland
33% Brittany
23% Sweden-Norway
18% North France
13% Germany
6% France & Spain
5% Belgium
2% Denmark-North Germany

South Scotland/Northern Ireland
25% Brittany
24% Germany
18% Sweden-Norway
10% Belgium
8% North France
8% France & Spain
7% Denmark-North Germany

North East Scotland
25% Brittany
20% North France
18% Sweden-Norway
17% Germany
11% Belgium
7% Denmark-North Germany
2% France & Spain

Wales
West Wales
36% Brittany
31% Germany
13% France & Spain
8% Sweden-Norway
7% Belgium
5% Denmark-North Germany
0% North France

Cornwall
35% North France
25% Brittany
19% Denmark-North Germany
10% Germany
5% Belgium
4% Sweden-Norway
2% France & Spain

What is quite interesting is that Wales is the only area with 0 North France input.

Thank you so much, I wasn't sure if this existed.
IIRC, the fact that Wales gets 0% of North France (they said it was a pre-Roman Iron Age migration) indicates that they carry the closest genes to the original settlers of Britain. Do you think this is plausible / do you have any other ideas about it?

avalon
02-19-2017, 05:46 PM
IIRC, the fact that Wales gets 0% of North France (they said it was a pre-Roman Iron Age migration) indicates that they carry the closest genes to the original settlers of Britain. Do you think this is plausible / do you have any other ideas about it?

I don't think there is any doubt that the modern Welsh are the closest proxy we have to Iron Age Britons. There was actually a study recently about Roman gladiators from York which had an Iron Age sample that matched modern Welsh closely. Tbh though, this shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone if we think about language and the fact that 563,000 people still speak Welsh (300,000 of them speak it as a first language according to the Welsh language board) so there is a clear continuity there from pre-Roman times that exists nowhere else in Britain.

Whether this means they are closest to original settlers is another question. I am no linguist but I believe that Gaelic is the more archaic form of Celtic and that Brythonic (Welsh) was a later language shift introduced to Britain from France. Of course this makes it all the more bizarre that in the POBI project the Welsh had 0% of the Northern France component but a the same time they did have the highest amounts of NW France (Brittany) component.

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326/figures/3

A Norfolk L-M20
02-19-2017, 05:55 PM
Whether this means they are closest to original settlers is another question.

I think that the Neolithic farmers might have objected to that, and the Mesolithic foragers before them, and bands of Palaeolithic hunters (when they could wander up here) before them ... and so on it goes, back to those footsteps off of a Norfolk beach in a fossilised forest, dating to 900,000 years ago or so.

rms2
02-19-2017, 06:14 PM
Nobody in Europe nowadays is really close to the "original settlers", if by that one means the hunter-gatherers who emerged from their refuges at the end of the LGM.

It's interesting that Germany scores so high for the Welsh.

sktibo
02-19-2017, 06:22 PM
Nobody in Europe nowadays is really close to the "original settlers", if by that one means the hunter-gatherers who emerged from their refuges at the end of the LGM.

It's interesting that Germany scores so high for the Welsh.

I'm sure they're not actually close to the original setters, but I think they're the closest, or, as close as any British population can get today.
Yeah the German component is one of the more interesting ones, I think the large component as seen in Welsh is what they call "West German" and refers to a very early group of migrants. I think every population contains it to some degree. Bell beaker or something? I don't know anything about bell beakers so if a bell beaker expert could hop into this thread and give his/her 2 cents I wouldn't object.

rms2
02-19-2017, 06:36 PM
I'm sure they're not actually close to the original setters, but I think they're the closest, or, as close as any British population can get today.
Yeah the German component is one of the more interesting ones, I think the large component as seen in Welsh is what they call "West German" and refers to a very early group of migrants. I think every population contains it to some degree. Bell beaker or something? I don't know anything about bell beakers so if a bell beaker expert could hop into this thread and give his/her 2 cents I wouldn't object.

I guess one would have to see how the Welsh come out on a PCA chart when compared to actual hunter-gatherers, but I seriously doubt they are any closer to them than anyone else is.

From what I have seen, the Welsh cluster pretty closely with the rest of the Isles population. It's not like they stand out in an HG direction.

rms2
02-19-2017, 06:41 PM
Watch this video, and listen to what he has to say starting at 9:16 in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTY9K1Q_Sbg

avalon
02-19-2017, 08:24 PM
I guess one would have to see how the Welsh come out on a PCA chart when compared to actual hunter-gatherers, but I seriously doubt they are any closer to them than anyone else is.

From what I have seen, the Welsh cluster pretty closely with the rest of the Isles population. It's not like they stand out in an HG direction.

I haven't seen such a PCA (Welsh often get ignored in published papers) but I'm sure you're right. In terms of ancient admixture the Welsh are probably very similar to Irish and Scottish. I did read somewhere though that Celtic fringe countries tend to have higher WHG than England, although this may not mean too much in terms of direct ancestry from earliest inhabitants of Britain.

avalon
02-19-2017, 08:48 PM
I'm sure they're not actually close to the original setters, but I think they're the closest, or, as close as any British population can get today.
Yeah the German component is one of the more interesting ones, I think the large component as seen in Welsh is what they call "West German" and refers to a very early group of migrants. I think every population contains it to some degree. Bell beaker or something? I don't know anything about bell beakers so if a bell beaker expert could hop into this thread and give his/her 2 cents I wouldn't object.

It's tricky though because as others have said, it looks like a major population change in the Bronze Age largely replaced the genes of the previous inhabitants. Welsh could well be a good proxy for Bronze Age Britons but it would be nice if Welsh actually featured in some ancient DNA papers, often they don't and then we need to factor in genetic changes in later Bronze Age and Iron Age.

Like I said, it is totally logical that they should be a good proxy for Iron Age Britons but beyond that I'm not sure.

JMcB
02-19-2017, 08:56 PM
Watch this video, and listen to what he has to say starting at 9:16 in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTY9K1Q_Sbg

That's an excellent lecture. I watched it a while back and he really does a nice job!

rms2
02-19-2017, 10:07 PM
It's tricky though because as others have said, it looks like a major population change in the Bronze Age largely replaced the genes of the previous inhabitants. Welsh could well be a good proxy for Bronze Age Britons but it would be nice if Welsh actually featured in some ancient DNA papers, often they don't and then we need to factor in genetic changes in later Bronze Age and Iron Age.

Like I said, it is totally logical that they should be a good proxy for Iron Age Britons but beyond that I'm not sure.

In this video below Dr. Koch mentions the Welsh as being close to the Irish and Scots and like the Bronze Age Rathlin Island men.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub5izFOdtDs

sktibo
02-19-2017, 10:18 PM
Watch this video, and listen to what he has to say starting at 9:16 in.

rms2, this was absolutely fantastic. I finally have some idea what these Bell Beakers are that everyone is talking about, but I'm going to ask you to make sure I'm on the right track: are they the western european farmers who were mixed with the original WHG?
I thought there would have been more Hunter-gatherer DNA left in us, but in the video he made a good point- there were a lot more farmers. I just went over and looked through some posts such as FTDNA ancient origins and the new MDLP k11. I'm now rather confused as to why both of these seem to list WHG as the majority population in many of us majority Western European folks, when it seems like in the presentation, the largest population was either the Farmers or the Steppe Pastoralists (those are the Yamnaya?(sp?)) I'm assuming the Steppe people are Metal Age Invaders in FTDNA and EHG in k11. Could this indicate there's a problem with our current ancient calculators?

14150

I took a screen (15:55 in the video) on the modern populations and how they relate to the ancient peoples. It's probably hard to see so,
Blue = WHG, Orange = Farmers, Green = Yamnaya
Top to Bottom modern ethnicities:
Norway
Lithuania
Estonia
Iceland
Scotland
Czech
Belarus
Hungary
Ukraine
England
Orkney
South France
Croatia
France
North Spain
Bulgaria
Tuscany
Basque
Bergamo
Spain
Greece
Albania
Sardnia

rms2
02-19-2017, 10:20 PM
rms2, this was absolutely fantastic. I finally have some idea what these Bell Beakers are that everyone is talking about, but I'm going to ask you to make sure I'm on the right track: are they the western european farmers who were mixed with the original WHG?
I thought there would have been more Hunter-gatherer DNA left in us, but in the video he made a good point- there were a lot more farmers. I just went over and looked through some posts such as FTDNA ancient origins and the new MDLP k11. I'm now rather confused as to why both of these seem to list WHG as the majority population, when it seems like in the presentation, the largest population was either the Farmers or the Steppe Pastoralists (those are the Yamnaya?(sp?)) I'm assuming the Steppe people are Metal Age Invaders in FTDNA and EHG in k11. Could this indicate there's a problem with our current ancient calculators?

14150

I took a screen (15:55 in the video) on the modern populations and how they relate to the ancient peoples. It's probably hard to see so,
Blue = WHG, Orange = Farmers, Green = Yamnaya
Top to Bottom modern ethnicities:
Norway
Lithuania
Estonia
Iceland
Scotland
Czech
Belarus
Hungary
Ukraine
England
Orkney
South France
Croatia
France
North Spain
Bulgaria
Tuscany
Basque
Bergamo
Spain
Greece
Albania
Sardnia

No, IMHO, Bell Beaker was an offshoot of Yamnaya and brought Indo-European speech to the Isles.

sktibo
02-19-2017, 10:22 PM
No, IMHO, Bell Beaker was an offshoot of Yamnaya and brought Indo-European speech to the Isles.

Alright, I'll have to look into it some more.

rms2
02-19-2017, 10:29 PM
Here are some snippets from Marija Gimbutas' book, The Kurgan Culture and the Indo-Europeanization of Europe:



The Bell Beaker complex, an offshoot of the Vucedol bloc (more precisely of the Zok-Mako group in Hungary) continued Kurgan characteristics. The Bell Beaker of the second half of the 3rd millennium BC were vagabondic horse riders and archers in much the same way as their uncles and cousins, the Corded people of northern Europe and Catacomb-grave people of the North Pontic region. Their spread over central and western Europe to the British Isles and Spain as well as the Mediterranean islands terminates the period of expansion and destruction . . . (p. 104)

In western Hungary and northwestern Yugoslavia, the Vucedol complex was followed by the Samogyvar-Vinkovci complex, the predecessor of the Bell Beaker people. Furthermore, the exodus of the horse-riding Bell Beaker people in the middle of the 3rd millennium, or soon thereafter, from the territories of the Vucedol complex, may not be unconnected with the constant threat from the east. They carried to the west Kurgan traditions in armament, social structure, and religion. The fact of paramount importance of Bell Beaker mobility is the presence of the horse. Seven Bell Beaker sites at Budapest in Hungary have shown that the horse was the foremost species of the domestic fauna (pp. 258-259).

Here are some more from her book, The Civilization of the Goddess:



The Bell Beaker culture of western Europe which diffused between 2500 and 2100 B.C. between central Europe, the British Isles, and the Iberian Peninsula, could not have arisen in a vacuum. The mobile horse-riding and warrior people who buried their dead in Yamna type kurgans certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture. We must ask what sort of ecology and ideology created these people, and where are the roots of the specific Bell Beaker equipment and their burial rites. In my view, the Bell Beaker cultural elements derive from Vucedol and Kurgan (Late Yamna) traditions.

The specific correspondence between the Yamna, Late Vucedol, and Bell Beaker complexes is visible in burial rites which include grave pits under round barrows, the coexistence of cremation and inhumation rites, and the construction of mortuary houses. (FIGURE 10-38) In armaments we see tanged or riveted triangular daggers made of arsenic copper, spear points of arsenic copper and flint, concave-based or tanged triangular arrowheads of flint, and arrow straighteners. In ornaments there are necklaces of canine teeth, copper tubes, or bird bones; boar tusks; and crescent-shaped pendants resembling breast plates. In solar symbolism we find sun or star motifs excised and white encrusted on the inside of braziers, or incised on bone or amber button-shaped beads. Techniques of ceramic decoration include stamping or gouging in zoned metopes, encrustation with white paste of delicate geometric motifs, zigzags, dashes, nets, lozenges, and dots or circles (a Baden-Kostolac-Vucedol tradition). Certain ceramic forms placed in graves, such as braziers and beakers, are from the Kurgan tradition. The Bell Beaker people, wherever they spread, continued the traditional ceramic art connected with their faith. Only the ritual importance of their uniquely beautiful stereotyped beakers could have motivated their production for hundreds of years in lands far from the homeland. The correspondences linking the Bell Beaker and Yamna with the Vucedol - in armament, costume, funeral rites, beliefs in life after death, and in symbolism - are precisely the most significant and revealing. It is very likely that the Bell Beaker complex is an amalgam of Vucedol and Yamna traditions formed after the incursion of the Yamna people into the milieu of the Vucedol culture, i.e., in the course of 300 to 400 years after 3000-2900 B.C. (pp. 390-391)
. . .

Horse bones in a series of sites provide a clue to the mobility of the Bell Beaker people. Analysis of animal bones from the sites at Budapest (Csepel Hollandiut and Csepel-Haros) have shown that the horse was the foremost species of the domestic fauna, constituting more than 60 percent of the total animal bones. This suggests a large-scale domestication of the horse in the Carpathian basin. Bell Beaker migrations were carried out on horseback from central Europe as far as Spain (where horse bones have also been found in Bell Beaker contexts). The horse also played a significant role in religion, as can be seen from the remains of the horse sacrifice where skulls are found in cremation graves . . .

The striking similarity of burial practices ties the Bell Beaker complex to the Kurgan (Late Yamna) tradition. (p. 391)

There is hardly any reason to treat these groups [Vinkovci-Samogyvar and Bell Beaker] as separate cultures. (p. 391).

4. The warlike and horse-riding Bell Beaker people of the middle and second half of the third millennium B.C., who diffused over western Europe, are likely to have originated from an amalgam of remnants of the Vucedol people with the Yamna colonists (after Wave No. 3) in Yugoslavia and Hungary. Their parent culture is called Vinkovci-Samogyvar. This was the largest and last outmigration, from east-central Europe into western Europe, up to the west Mediterranean and the British Isles, before the onset of a more stable period, and the formation of Bronze Age cultural units. (p. 401)

razyn
02-19-2017, 10:33 PM
I took a screen (15:55 in the video) on the modern populations and how they relate to the ancient peoples.

The constant in that bar graph would appear to be Yamnaya component vs. everything else (in this model, two other components). And viewed that way, it skews markedly from north to south. Isn't that kind of new?

Anyway the Mediterranean does not look like the main route for a steppe-derived re-peopling after the First Farmers. And maybe not even the Danube. Notably absent from the model (if that's what it models) are Russia, Poland, Latvia, Finland, Belarus... probably others; but I'm just suggesting there may have been an element of surprise at these results, given the sampling bias.

rms2
02-19-2017, 10:37 PM
The Danube is clearly the path, unless one is talking about Corded Ware. There are literally thousands of Yamnaya kurgans in the Carpathian Basin, and that is where it appears things came together.

14151 14152 14153

sktibo
02-19-2017, 11:15 PM
Here are some snippets from Marija Gimbutas' book,
Here are some more from her book,

Thank you for posting these.
So the Bell Beaker are more or less descended from the Corded Ware?

Jessie
02-20-2017, 02:06 AM
Alright, I'll have to look into it some more.

FTDNA Ancient Origins looks like it is basing its Metal Age Invaders on CHG and not Yamnaya so it is not accurate.

Jessie
02-20-2017, 02:11 AM
This is from Matt's post on Eurogenes Blog.

"Been trying some more modeling of European population history using the Globe10+Days of High Adventure merge sheets with nMonte:

Calc populations*: Steppe_EMBA (average of Afanasievo, Yamnaya, Poltvaka), Anatolia_N (average of Barcin_N and Mentese_N), Iberia_M, Loschbour, Motala_H, Ukraine_N1, Hungary_HG, Karelia_HG

European target populations: Basque French, Basque_Spanish, Belarusian, Bosnian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Czech, Dutch, English_Cornwall, French, Germany, Hungarian, Irish, Italian_North, Latvian, Lithuanian, Macedonian, Norwegian, Polish, Russian_West, Sardinian, Scottish, Serbian, Spanish, Swedish, Ukrainian_West

Calc chosen to represent the Mesolithic HG, plus Steppe and Barcin_N. Difference from what I've previously run in avoiding using Kotias rather than the more proximate Steppe_EMBA."

http://i.imgur.com/inI5BLV.png

sktibo
02-20-2017, 02:18 AM
This is from Matt's post on Eurogenes Blog.

"Been trying some more modeling of European population history using the Globe10+Days of High Adventure merge sheets with nMonte:

Calc populations*: Steppe_EMBA (average of Afanasievo, Yamnaya, Poltvaka), Anatolia_N (average of Barcin_N and Mentese_N), Iberia_M, Loschbour, Motala_H, Ukraine_N1, Hungary_HG, Karelia_HG

European target populations: Basque French, Basque_Spanish, Belarusian, Bosnian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Czech, Dutch, English_Cornwall, French, Germany, Hungarian, Irish, Italian_North, Latvian, Lithuanian, Macedonian, Norwegian, Polish, Russian_West, Sardinian, Scottish, Serbian, Spanish, Swedish, Ukrainian_West

Calc chosen to represent the Mesolithic HG, plus Steppe and Barcin_N. Difference from what I've previously run in avoiding using Kotias rather than the more proximate Steppe_EMBA."

http://i.imgur.com/inI5BLV.png

That is fascinating. Is Iberia_M a Hunter-gatherer or a farmer? I think it's HG but I really don't know. I know Loschbour is HG, and I'm assuming that's what HG stands for.
Crazy that Scotland and Ireland are almost identical on this. It looks like the more northern populations are more Yamnaya influenced, is that correct?
Thank you

Jessie
02-20-2017, 02:39 AM
That is fascinating. Is Iberia_M a Hunter-gatherer or a farmer? I think it's HG but I really don't know. I know Loschbour is HG, and I'm assuming that's what HG stands for.
Crazy that Scotland and Ireland are almost identical on this. It looks like the more northern populations are more Yamnaya influenced, is that correct?
Thank you

Iberia_M is a farmer (I think). Could someone please clarify?

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/ancient_genome_of_iberian_farmer_sequenced-157059

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1646-Genome-of-a-late-Neolithic-Iberian-farmer

sktibo
02-20-2017, 02:48 AM
Iberia_M is a farmer (I think). Could someone please clarify?

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/ancient_genome_of_iberian_farmer_sequenced-157059

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1646-Genome-of-a-late-Neolithic-Iberian-farmer

Is everything to the right of Loschbour hunter-gatherer then?
I apologize for all the questions, but I've just gained interest in this area of ancient populations and I'm starting from the ground floor
Thanks again

Jessie
02-20-2017, 02:52 AM
Is everything to the right of Loschbour hunter-gatherer then?
I apologize for all the questions, but I've just gained interest in this area of ancient populations and I'm starting from the ground floor
Thanks again

Yes you are right as adding up it wouldn't make sense if Basque have that high a farmer component. I'm sure someone will confirm.

Mestace
02-20-2017, 03:27 AM
Iberia_M is LaBrana, it's a hunter. M stands for Mesolithic.

Im not sure how he can really differentiate the two, with Loschbour they are typical WHG's.

rms2
02-20-2017, 01:03 PM
Thank you for posting these.
So the Bell Beaker are more or less descended from the Corded Ware?

No. Bell Beaker is probably descended from western Yamnaya combined with some offshoots of Vucedol in the Carpathian Basin. Corded Ware was farther north, mainly on the North European Plain, round the north side of the Carpathians. Corded Ware is a separate culture.

sktibo
02-20-2017, 06:51 PM
No. Bell Beaker is probably descended from western Yamnaya combined with some offshoots of Vucedol in the Carpathian Basin. Corded Ware was farther north, mainly on the North European Plain, round the north side of the Carpathians. Corded Ware is a separate culture.

Gotcha. I had equated yamnaya to corded ware. Appreciate your response.

AnnieD
02-20-2017, 07:39 PM
Thank you so much, I wasn't sure if this existed.
IIRC, the fact that Wales gets 0% of North France (they said it was a pre-Roman Iron Age migration) indicates that they carry the closest genes to the original settlers of Britain. Do you think this is plausible / do you have any other ideas about it?

The description of the S. Wales border in new LivingDNA test might be of interest in regard to early Britons and historical migration patterns. I repeatedly see this reference to shared genetics with this region in my population matches on the test:

"DNA here shows similar genetics with Germany, France and Belgium"

South Wales Border

The areas of Shropshire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire, Worcestershire, Powys and Gwent are collectively called the South Wales border. DNA here shows similar genetics with Germany, France and Belgium which may be legacy to some of the first settlers in Britain after the last ice age. These connections first appear with the most ancient settlers of the Welsh border, and may still make up a sizable amount of your DNA today. The Celtic tribe “Silures” occupied much of this area, and were famously impassioned against the Roman invasions.

The South Wales border is a place full of imagination and mythical legend - King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table are thought to originate in Caerleon, being part of the British defence against the Anglo-Saxons. Such myths are based around some truth from historic events across the borders. Wales was part of the British defence against the Anglo-Saxon invasions. The genetic signature of the Welsh borders may differentiate from both England and the rest of Wales due to this invasion - it experienced less genetic impact from the Anglo-Saxons than the English, but saw more of an impact than the south and north regions of Wales.

People began to migrate across to the South Wales border after the Ice Age lost its grasp across Britain around 10,000 - 12,000 years ago. At such a westerly point, it is unlikely that the first migrants here traveled from central Europe across the landbridge to Britain. Instead, they probably followed the Atlantic coast from (perhaps from Western France), enduring the lengthy journey by boat (Keeling, 2013). You may be genetically connected to these most ancient people, which is largely due to the isolation of Wales from the rest of Britain. These first migrants probably travelled to the area in search of new lands for hunting and foraging. The melting glaciers led to migrations of animals with the seasons and growing forests, shortly followed by these new inhabitants of Wales.

Although Wales was relatively isolated, it was influenced by select movements of people. Migrations from continental Europe brought new farming technologies into Britain, changing the face of human subsistence forever and introducing the “New Stone Age”. This may have happened in different stages, and it is thought that the southwest areas of Britain, including the Welsh border, had farming practices introduced by people who migrated from mainland Europe, perhaps from Normandy and the Channel Islands (Collard et al., 2010). The revolution of metal working is also owed to migrations to Britain, and is thought to have been introduced by the “Beaker People”, who likely migrated from Western Europe. They changed culture and lifestyles with the introduction of metalwork and new tombed burial practices (Pearson et al., 2012).

Migration of Individuals

Iron Age people migrated to Wales from Europe, and had a huge cultural influence on the settlers who already occupied the Welsh borders. However, the extent of their genetic influence may not be as extensive as once thought, and you are more likely to share more of your genetic signature with the first settlers who arrived after the last ice age and to an extent from the previous “Beaker People” migrations (Ross, N/A). From the Iron Age, the inhabitants were named by the Romans as the “Silures” tribe. The Romans invaded and occupied the South Wales borders from around 60AD, but the warlike mentality of the Silures meant that the Romans struggled to fully conquer them. We rely on the Roman accounts of this tribe, who described them as having curly hair and Spanish in appearance. The Romans believed they were from Spain, but genetic evidence shows no such connection to the Welsh borders (BBC History, 2014).

There is not yet any evidence that the Romans left any genetic legacy across the Welsh borders, or elsewhere in Britain (Leslie et al., 2015). Despite this, the Romans did influence culture and the landscape. For example, the presence of the Romans can be seen in the genetics of Welsh Mountain ponies. Originally from Saxony, the wild ponies were strong and adapted to harsh climates before people settled permanently. The Romans had Arab horses, who were turned loose when they left, leaving their signature in the genetics of the Welsh ponies in the Brecon Beacons today (Devon Ponies, 2015). These ponies have gone on to be a huge part of Welsh history, pulling chariots and working the mines.

The South Wales border appears to have a shared prehistory and genetic legacy to South and North Wales, being relatively isolated after the first migrations from Western Europe after the ice age. So why does the South Wales border have a different genetic signature to the rest of Wales? The genetic signature across the South Wales border may be so unique because of the Anglo-Saxon invasions having a far smaller impact than they did on the rest of Britain, but more impact than on South and North Wales (Leslie et al., 2015). It may therefore be possible that your DNA has been influenced by Germanic Anglo-Saxons. Wales’ mountainous environments and westerly location could have been another cause. The fact that North Wales has its own unique DNA goes to show how the concept of one solidified Celtic tribe is a myth. Cornwall, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland were once all considered one unified Celtic group, yet there is no genetic commonality distinguishing them from the rest of the British Isles (Devlin, 2015).

The harsh landscape and climate of the last ice age was in full force across the Welsh border. Around 10,000 years ago, this became unrecognisably different - the vast icy tundra retreated, the freezing temperatures warmed and forests began to take over. As this transformation took place, people began to populate the area more. Their lifestyles changed from hunting mammoths and reindeer to fishing, foraging and hunting. They were true hunter-gatherers, and the South Wales border appears to have been a gold mine for berries, forage, deer and boar, and with the growth of forests it became much easier to hunt (Greene, 2003). People would have needed to find enough shelter to survive in the colder months. Evidence shows that early people used Arthur’s and Merlin’s cave at Doward, Herefordshire, as refuge from the cold and scavengers.

The Middle Stone Age

At the end of the Middle Stone Age, temperatures continue to rise, leading to an abundance in growth of edible forage. This led to more animals in the area, providing more energy efficient hunting for people. Across Europe, people were beginning to manipulate the land by cultivating crops and raising livestock on small allotments. As farming developed and farming communities formed, people began to build both roundhouse settlements and rectangular housing (Wales Prehistory). It is thought that these farming communities would have been based on close-knit family ties.

From the Roman texts we have today, such as Tacitus Annals, we can get an insight into the Celtic tribes of the southeast borders. We rely on texts from the Romans to gain information on these tribes, as they did not have writing of their own at this time. They described the Silures tribe as warlike and troublesome due to their strong resistance against the Roman occupation. They were relentless in their ambition to suppress the Romans - they ambushed them during the night and fled to their mountain homes during the day, which made it difficult for the Romans to reach them. The Romans failed to occupy them for 10 years, but had control of all of Wales and its borders by 80 AD (BBC History). The Silures tribe were very much people of the the mountains, being described as having thick, black curly hair and a violent and spirited character. The meaning of “Silures” in Latin is “people of the rocks”, which encapsulates the mountainous nature of their homeland.

The Anglo-Saxon Invasions

The Anglo-Saxon invasions had a bigger impact on the Welsh borders than they did on the rest of Wales, but much less than on the rest of England. Anglo-Saxon defence borders can be seen today, such as Offa’s Dyke which stretches across the majority of the border (Historic UK, 2016). The borders were pushed back, making Wales a smaller area than before. To the east of the Welsh borders in Shropshire, Worcestershire and parts of Hereford, the Anglo-Saxon tribal kingdom of “Hwicce” occupied the area. The Germanic origins of this tribe may be one explanation for the change in the genetics of people across the welsh Border.

“Ydych chi'n siarad Cymraeg?”

Around 19% of people in Wales and 70% of people in Snowdonia can speak Welsh, so if you translated the above then you are one of them! This is a living legacy to some of the early “Celtic” inhabitants of Wales. Throughout history, there has been ambiguity over the borders of England and Wales, and this maybe reflected in the prominence of Welsh being spoken. Welsh was spoken in Hereford until quite recently, and the language is being spoken less across the Welsh borders today (BBC Voices, 2014). Despite this, Welsh would have been widely spoken across the borders before the invasions of the Anglo-Saxons. The language is similar to Breton, which is a Celtic language spoken in Brittany. Cornish and Welsh are known as Brythonic languages, and are thought to originate with tribes from France that migrated to southern parts of Britain. Some people have argued that ancient Welsh existed before the migration of European Celtic tribes, but without the ancient language being written it is hard to be sure of its exact origins (Wales Online, 2006).

Citations


Keeling, J. (2013). What makes the British? (http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/features/what-makes-british)
Pearson, J, et al., (2012), The Beaker People (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/research/directory/beaker-people-parkerpearson)
Thomas, P. (2014), Welsh Today, (http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/multilingual/welsh.shtml)
Wales Prehistory, Wales Prehistory.org (https://my.livingdna.com/app#%21/ancestry/e5338143-f7a2-11e6-9078-5254002fd1a4)
BBC History, The Roman Invasion of Wales (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/events/roman_invasion_wales)
BBC History, (2014). Native Tribes of Britain (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/iron_01.shtml)
Collard, M. (2010) Radiocarbon evidence indicates that migrants introduced farming to Britain (https://my.livingdna.com/app#%21/ancestry/e5338143-f7a2-11e6-9078-5254002fd1a4)
Devlin, (2015) (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry)
Greene, M. (2003), Herefordshire through time (http://htt.herefordshire.gov.uk/1343.aspx)
Historic UK, (2016), Anglo-Saxon sites in Britain (http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMagazine/DestinationsUK/AngloSaxonSites/)

rms2
02-20-2017, 09:37 PM
. . .

South Wales Border

The areas of Shropshire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire, Worcestershire, Powys and Gwent are collectively called the South Wales border. DNA here shows similar genetics with Germany, France and Belgium which may be legacy to some of the first settlers in Britain after the last ice age . . .

There is still a lot of stuff being used and reused that is from the bad old days of about nine or ten years ago when the consensus was that most Europeans were basically the unchanged descendants of people who came out of the Iberian Refuge at the end of the LGM. That is what that sounds like. I seriously doubt modern people from the areas named are any more like "the first settlers in Britain after the last ice age" than anyone else in Britain is.

Think about those areas and how much has happened there in the last several millennia. Does it really seem likely the people there are closer to the "first settlers" than everyone else in Britain? Why would being similar to people in Germany, France, and Belgium represent a "legacy to some of the first settlers in Britain after the last ice age"? Am I the only who thinks that sounds goofy?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-21-2017, 08:02 AM
There is still a lot of stuff being used and reused that is from the bad old days of about nine or ten years ago when the consensus was that most Europeans were basically the unchanged descendants of people who came out of the Iberian Refuge at the end of the LGM. That is what that sounds like. I seriously doubt modern people from the areas named are any more like "the first settlers in Britain after the last ice age" than anyone else in Britain is.

Think about those areas and how much has happened there in the last several millennia. Does it really seem likely the people there are closer to the "first settlers" than everyone else in Britain? Why would being similar to people in Germany, France, and Belgium represent a "legacy to some of the first settlers in Britain after the last ice age"? Am I the only who thinks that sounds goofy?

You are right, there have been a lot of influences in the Welsh Borders, with Welsh, Anglo Saxon, Norman and Bretton and others. However the area has always been pretty accessible from Coastal Western Europe. In relation to Britain we tend to think of migration/conquest from the East, with Wales/Borders being at the end of the line so to speak, but this is a bit misleading in terms of travel by sea from the Western seaboard of continental Europe.
It's partly why the Romans created large settlement in Caerleon and Caerwent - easy access, good agricultural land and resources and access up the Severn river valley. I think it's quite possible this has always been a migration route going way back, so maybe the Borders could have a sort of underlying distinct early genetic character not entirely due to a blend of Welsh and A/S ? Whether it can be identified or not is a different matter. :) John

rms2
02-21-2017, 12:42 PM
I think it's more likely to be a holdover from the thinking of nine or ten years ago and perhaps not a little from the old 19th century idea that Wales, along with the rest of the Celtic Fringe, was peopled by primitives whom it was the duty of the English to civilize.

I'm not saying the modern English hold to the entirety of that view, but aspects of it remain, e.g., the idea that Wales was relatively untouched by the civilizational currents that affected the rest of Britain, especially England, and that the Welsh people are some sort of pristine British aboriginals (kind of like an Isles version of the Basque silliness).

Honestly, I'm not sure any of us is actually descended from the very same HGs who repopulated the Isles at the end of the LGM. We all carry HG ancestry, but it could be that all of it comes from later arrivals who brought it from the Continent as one component in their own genetic make-up.

Jessie
02-21-2017, 01:35 PM
I think it's more likely to be a holdover from the thinking of nine or ten years ago and perhaps not a little from the old 19th century idea that Wales, along with the rest of the Celtic Fringe, was peopled by primitives whom it was the duty of the English to civilize.

I'm not saying the modern English hold to the entirety of that view, but aspects of it remain, e.g., the idea that Wales was relatively untouched by the civilizational currents that affected the rest of Britain, especially England, and that the Welsh people are some sort of pristine British aboriginals (kind of like an Isles version of the Basque silliness).

Honestly, I'm not sure any of us is actually descended from the very same HGs who repopulated the Isles at the end of the LGM. We all carry HG ancestry, but it could be that all of it comes from later arrivals who brought it from the Continent as one component in their own genetic make-up.

You could see what they put for Ireland on LivingDNA. The information on the British areas is much more up-to-date.

"The Middle Stone Age was brought to an end with what seems to be a large migration of people from the Mediterranean. This spurred the beginning of the New Stone Age, and changed the lives of the Irish inhabitants forever. Most likely arriving from Spain, these people brought a new survival technique to the Irish population - farming. Unlike Britain, people traveled by boat from Spain into Southern Ireland, gradually spreading all across the country and into the most northern areas. The DNA from a New Stone Age woman has been tested, linking her origins to the Spanish Mediterranean. Her genetics also linked her to the hunter gatherer people of Ireland, showing that a large scale admixture of groups likely occurred (Cassidy et al., 2016). It is probable that these early migrations have had a significant lasting effect on the genetics of the Irish population today (McKeon, 2013)."

We know from the same study (Cassidy) that the people that have had a lasting effect on the genetics of the Irish are Rathlin. Also the Irish must be very similar to the British because they cluster with them so it's not likely they had a different farmer population than the British which is what is implied here.

sktibo
03-11-2017, 07:46 AM
Found the excel sheet with the percentages, and put it into a text document

14480