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jpb
02-19-2017, 04:59 AM
My mom transferred her data from ancestry, and in MyOrigins, she got 7% Finnish. This was a surprise as we have no known Finnish heritage. We have family from New Sweden (10th great grandparents so REALLY far back). She has a 4th cousin who got 90 something % Finnish DNA and whose ancestors only come from North and Central Finland. She also has a bunch of (smaller) Swedish and Finnish matches on this segment on GEDMatch. Does this mean she has genuine Finnish heritage, with the MyOrigins and matches?

Ebizur
02-19-2017, 05:36 AM
I apologize for asking a question that is entirely off-topic and personal, but what is the known genealogy of your paternal lineage?

Mike_G
02-19-2017, 05:41 AM
I've got 5% in FTDNA for that region. FWIW I have quite a few distant Finn matches on one small segment on one chromosome. I disregarded it as noise.

jpb
02-19-2017, 05:43 AM
I apologize for asking a question that is entirely off-topic and personal, but what is the known genealogy of your paternal lineage?

It is a mystery! :) I have an East Asian haplogroup as you can see but my known paternal lineage is Bavarian.

jpb
02-19-2017, 05:43 AM
Do you still think it's noise because of the matches? My mom's closest Finnish match is 14 cMs.

Ebizur
02-19-2017, 06:25 AM
It is a mystery! :) I have an East Asian haplogroup as you can see but my known paternal lineage is Bavarian.Thank you very much. You probably are aware of this already, but for the sake of the general edification, let me point out that C-CTS3385 is a subclade of C-F2613, which has an estimated TMRCA of 11,400 years before present and is widespread in eastern Asia from Yakutia in the north to Pakistan, Bangladesh, Yunnan, and Vietnam in the south. It appears that most extant Siberian members of C-F2613 belong to the highly derived C-M407 subclade. The present-day distribution of C-F2613 is similar to that of other Y-DNA haplogroups typically associated with Chinese or with East Asians in general. This contrasts with the distribution of C-L1373, which is typically North Eurasian and American in a manner similar to Q-L54. A minor clade, C-CTS4660, which appears to be slightly more closely related to C-F2613 than it is related to C-L1373, also has been found in China.

Anyway, I would expect to find a member of C-L1373 rather than a member of C-F2613 in Europe, so your Y-DNA is quite interesting. Can you submit your Y-DNA data to YFull? I would like to see an estimate of the TMRCA between your Y-DNA and that of NA18612 from the CHB (Han Chinese in Beijing) sample.

deadly77
02-19-2017, 07:10 AM
I have 4% Finland and Northern Siberia on My Origins. All my ancestry is Britain and Ireland. My 23andme gave 0% Finland so I'm not convinced it's real. Interested to see if the upcoming My Origins update gives a different result.

anglesqueville
02-19-2017, 07:50 AM
I have 4% Finland and Northern Siberia on My Origins. All my ancestry is Britain and Ireland. My 23andme gave 0% Finland so I'm not convinced it's real.
Just to take one example, my father ( I could tell about me, his brother, his brother's grand daughter). I have uploaded his 23&me v4 kit this week to ftdna, and he got 8% Finland Northern Siberia ( beside 10% Scandinavia and 7 % eastern Europe), while 23&me gives him only 0.2% Finnish in conservative mode. My father happens to have many finnish relatives. On gedmatch, with segments greater than 7cM, more than 120; around 40 with more than 9cM, up to 12 or 13 cM, around 5 generations to MRCA. It would be too long to explain it in details, but shortly said, after a hard triangulation work, and having contacted the closest relatives, we have very likely ( in fact nearly certainly) traced the most probable route between Finland and Normandy, through the Netherlands, in the XVIIIth and XIXth centuries. I am not a great fan of ftdna, far from it, but I'm really convinced that our Finnish scores on their ethnic makeup is real ( even if I don't take the numerical values as gospel). Your 4 % is likely for something real, and you should explore your genealogy a little deeper.

deadly77
02-19-2017, 09:48 AM
Just to take one example, my father ( I could tell about me, his brother, his brother's grand daughter). I have uploaded his 23&me v4 kit this week to ftdna, and he got 8% Finland Northern Siberia ( beside 10% Scandinavia and 7 % eastern Europe), while 23&me gives him only 0.2% Finnish in conservative mode. My father happens to have many finnish relatives. On gedmatch, with segments greater than 7cM, more than 120; around 40 with more than 9cM, up to 12 or 13 cM, around 5 generations to MRCA. It would be too long to explain it in details, but shortly said, after a hard triangulation work, and having contacted the closest relatives, we have very likely ( in fact nearly certainly) traced the most probable route between Finland and Normandy, through the Netherlands, in the XVIIIth and XIXth centuries. I am not a great fan of ftdna, far from it, but I'm really convinced that our Finnish scores on their ethnic makeup is real ( even if I don't take the numerical values as gospel). Your 4 % is likely for something real, and you should explore your genealogy a little deeper.

Thanks for the different perspective. And you're right, I should look into it. However, unlike your father I don't appear to have many Finnish relatives through matches. While I haven't looked at every single one in my autosomal match list, none with a Finland connection have come to my attention. And I would expect at 4% that this would equate to a fully Finnish ggg-grandparent (with each one contributing 3.12%) on my paper trail. I know 31 of my 32 ggg-grandparents and no known Finns. While that doesn't rule it out, it doesn't confirm it either. My unknown ggg-grandparent is my mtDNA ancestor and none of my close mtDNA matches show any connection to Finland. If you extend that out to the parent haplogroup J then it becomes impossible to confirm or not. In order to try and gather more evidence - do any of the gedmatch calculators show up your father's Finnish ancestry accurately? How about AncestryDNA? Any way to quickly search ancestor birthplaces on the FTDNA or Gedmatch matches list? 23andme has that feature and it gave me zero Finnish matches. I would rather collect some additional confirming evidence than base everything on My Origins.

anglesqueville
02-19-2017, 10:08 AM
Thanks for the different perspective. And you're right, I should look into it. However, unlike your father I don't appear to have many Finnish relatives through matches. While I haven't looked at every single one in my autosomal match list, none with a Finland connection have come to my attention. And I would expect at 4% that this would equate to a fully Finnish ggg-grandparent (with each one contributing 3.12%) on my paper trail. I know 31 of my 32 ggg-grandparents and no known Finns. While that doesn't rule it out, it doesn't confirm it either. My unknown ggg-grandparent is my mtDNA ancestor and none of my close mtDNA matches show any connection to Finland. If you extend that out to the parent haplogroup J then it becomes impossible to confirm or not. In order to try and gather more evidence - do any of the gedmatch calculators show up your father's Finnish ancestry accurately? How about AncestryDNA? Any way to quickly search ancestor birthplaces on the FTDNA or Gedmatch matches list? 23andme has that feature and it gave me zero Finnish matches. I would rather collect some additional confirming evidence than base everything on My Origins.

About the gedmatch and diverse DIY calculators: difficult to answer precisely. I'm tempted to think that no admixture calculator is able to detect a very minor ancestrality, unless it is very specific. But the fact is that most calculators are a bit confused by my father, showing him as more or less convincing blends of northwestern ( dutch or british) and northeastern ( bellarus, lithuanian, etc). The most recent ( Global 10 in particular) seem to detect between 10% and 20% of finnish ancestry, with a persisting saami or northern siberian percentage. For example ( G10) :
[1] "distance%=0.6461 / distance=0.006461"
anglesqueville:dad
English_Kent 47.7
French_East 31.4
Finnish 20.9

About MtHaplo: yes, I forgot this very important point. The maternal line of my father ( though the complete Mt of his brother) is K1c1c ( on GenBank, present only in Finland and North Russia), and btw that's one of the reasons why I decided to interest myself to the genealogy of his mother, which was very obscure only two years ago.

jpb
02-19-2017, 03:06 PM
Anglesqueville, my mother has about the same amount on GEDmatch.

jpb
02-19-2017, 03:22 PM
Ebizur, that is interesting! Thank you! I want to do a more advanced Y DNA test and when I do, I will upload to Y Full.

anglesqueville
02-19-2017, 03:28 PM
Anglesqueville, my mother has about the same amount on GEDmatch.

Imo you have a big work in front of you. You should use the segment tools on gedmatch tier 1 : you should have more than 1 segment with many finnish relatives on it. My father has three large segments ( and many smaller) that I can considere as "finnish". For example ( just an extract), on the chrom 8:
81,618,318 90,358,442 5.3 840 Inkeri K****nen
79,993,817 91,725,644 6.8 1,184 Rauno V****lo
80,006,561 92,157,337 7.0 1,224 Hilkka H***ti
82,022,928 94,427,906 7.1 1,094 *M. T. Vi**ta
72,180,729 79,984,081 7.5 1,064 Tapi T***nen
75,210,665 88,970,925 7.6 1,414 Anssi K****iemi
71,625,653 78,900,557 8.2 1,001 Ritva K***ki
71,848,376 79,984,081 8.2 1,079 *T****a
75,495,378 90,937,968 8.2 1,999 *S****maa Native
71,625,653 79,562,307 8.4 1,046 *A****a
73,607,217 93,279,477 11.8 2,102 Martti Sa***nen
After having identified your closest relatives, you have one thing to do: write them.

jpb
02-19-2017, 03:36 PM
Thank you! My mom's segments are shared with both Swedes and Finns, but the biggest match is 14 cM with a Finnish person, whose family has lived in one part of Finland for centuries. She has a big segment on Chromosome 1, one on Chromosome 17, and one on Chromosome 19 (which I share too). The largest match's name is very Finnish.

Mike_G
02-19-2017, 03:56 PM
Do you still think it's noise because of the matches? My mom's closest Finnish match is 14 cMs.

My apologies, my 30+ Swede matches are all on one chromosome. I have about 10-12 Finnish matches. They're not on the same chromosome. Highest match I believe is about 30 CM with a longest block of 8. I'll check my spreadsheet later today. I think that's very distant if valid at all. Could be coincidence.

deadly77
02-19-2017, 07:23 PM
About the gedmatch and diverse DIY calculators: difficult to answer precisely. I'm tempted to think that no admixture calculator is able to detect a very minor ancestrality, unless it is very specific. But the fact is that most calculators are a bit confused by my father, showing him as more or less convincing blends of northwestern ( dutch or british) and northeastern ( bellarus, lithuanian, etc). The most recent ( Global 10 in particular) seem to detect between 10% and 20% of finnish ancestry, with a persisting saami or northern siberian percentage. For example ( G10) :
[1] "distance%=0.6461 / distance=0.006461"
anglesqueville:dad
English_Kent 47.7
French_East 31.4
Finnish 20.9

About MtHaplo: yes, I forgot this very important point. The maternal line of my father ( though the complete Mt of his brother) is K1c1c ( on GenBank, present only in Finland and North Russia), and btw that's one of the reasons why I decided to interest myself to the genealogy of his mother, which was very obscure only two years ago.

Yes, so it seems that other pieces of evidence point that way in your case. The mtDNA haplogroup being that region specific and the autosomal matches from Finland allow a stronger confirmation. I don't have the latter two. I ran my data through several of the calculators on Gedmatch but nothing much came up as Finland or Siberia unless it was lumped in with others such as Fennoscandinavian or Northern European. The only calculator that gives me Finnish at 4.1% is DNA.Land, which also gave me 5.5% Balkan. On other threads, it seems pretty common for people of British and Irish ancestry to be assigned Finnish and Balkan on that calculator.

I'm still highly skeptical, but you're right - I shouldn't dismiss it out of hand. I'll have it in the back of my mind if I start coming across Finland in autosomal matches but so far I haven't seen it.

One last question - you said your father was 0.2% Finland on 23andme with conservative mode. Does that increase on speculative mode? I'm still 0% on speculative mode.

anglesqueville
02-19-2017, 10:19 PM
^^deadly77: no 0.2% in the 3 modes, the same for me. If you want my opinion, forget all the admixture analyses for that problem ( including 23&me, ftdna, dnaland and tutti quanti), and search your relatives with complete finnish ancestry.

deadly77
02-20-2017, 12:54 AM
^^deadly77: no 0.2% in the 3 modes, the same for me. If you want my opinion, forget all the admixture analyses for that problem ( including 23&me, ftdna, dnaland and tutti quanti), and search your relatives with complete finnish ancestry.

As I said, I don't have any matches with any Finland component that I can easily see. I've tried refining the FTDNA list using the search tool - 9 of the 10 most common surnames in Finland as listed here http://verkkopalvelu.vrk.fi/Nimipalvelu/default.asp?L=3 come up with zero. One of those (Laine) comes up as 6 matches, but they are all picking up part of Elaine or Blaine. I also tried Finland (0), Suomi (0), then moved on to some of the common suffixes -nen (15), -io (85), -sto (200) but in all cases I can see those fragments are part of a non-Finnish surname. I think I'm going to call it done at this point unless some new evidence comes my way. Thanks for your suggestions.