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rms2
06-01-2013, 11:29 PM
The autosomal SNP rs1805008 is apparently the same thing as R160W or Arg160Trp, which is one of the "RHC" (Red Hair Color) variants on the MC1R gene. My Family Finder raw data show that I have a "TC" there. The T is the allele for red hair, but it's a recessive trait, so you have to have "TT" to actually have red hair yourself. So, though I carry the trait for red hair, I don't have red hair myself, although I did have a lot of it in my moustache and beard before everything started going gray. When I was younger I was also told that I had "red highlights" in my otherwise dark hair.

My youngest daughter has red hair, as do three of my four grandkids, two boys and a girl, the children of my youngest son.

Rs1805008 is not the only red hair SNP. There are several others.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2013/04/26/sweeney-redhead-gene.cnn.html

http://imageshack.us/a/img546/66/redhairk.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/redhairk.jpg/)

rossa
06-03-2013, 02:48 PM
I have CC for rs1805008.
I seem to remember a 23andme post that listed about 6 different snp's. I can't find the particular post but from a different post it seems rs1805007 is another one.

DMXX
06-03-2013, 08:15 PM
^ The following might be what you're referring to, rossa.

The 23andMe Blog (http://blog.23andme.com/news/snpwatch-researchers-find-link-between-red-hair-and-avoiding-the-dentist/) has a set of SNP's listed which code for red hair:



SNP “Red Hair” Version Alternate Name For Mutation
rs34474212 C S83P
rs1805006 A D84E
rs11547464 A R142H
rs1110400 C I155T
rs1805007 T R151C
rs1805008 T R160W
i3002507 C D294H


I have absolutely none of those alleles for those SNPs. The overwhelming majority of my hair is dark brown, but there are occasional flecks of red and blonde.

Looks like half of these are originally on MC1R, which is the main "red hair gene".

AJL
06-03-2013, 08:25 PM
The autosomal SNP rs1805008 is apparently the same thing as R160W or Arg160Trp, which is one of the "RHC" (Red Hair Color) variants on the MC1R gene. My Family Finder raw data show that I have a "TC" there. The T is the allele for red hair, but it's a recessive trait, so you have to have "TT" to actually have red hair yourself. So, though I carry the trait for red hair, I don't have red hair myself, although I did have a lot of it in my moustache and beard before everything started going gray. When I was younger I was also told that I had "red highlights" in my otherwise dark hair.

I'm in exactly the same boat as you. I've even traced this by triangulating 23andme/Family Finder matches to a known ancestor from this little part of the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Inner_Hebrides

rossa
06-03-2013, 08:28 PM
^ The following might be what you're referring to, rossa.

The 23andMe Blog (http://blog.23andme.com/news/snpwatch-researchers-find-link-between-red-hair-and-avoiding-the-dentist/) has a set of SNP's listed which code for red hair:



SNP “Red Hair” Version Alternate Name For Mutation
rs34474212 C S83P
rs1805006 A D84E
rs11547464 A R142H
rs1110400 C I155T
rs1805007 T R151C
rs1805008 T R160W
i3002507 C D294H


I have absolutely none of those alleles for those SNPs. The overwhelming majority of my hair is dark brown, but there are occasional flecks of red and blonde.

Looks like half of these are originally on MC1R, which is the main "red hair gene".

Yes that looks like it, thanks.

GTC
06-04-2013, 07:22 AM
^ The following might be what you're referring to, rossa.



SNP “Red Hair” Version Alternate Name For Mutation
rs34474212 C S83P
rs1805006 A D84E
rs11547464 A R142H
rs1110400 C I155T
rs1805007 T R151C
rs1805008 T R160W
i3002507 C D294H




So, how do these SNPs work to produce red hair? That is, does a person need two or more of them to be present in the dominant form (i.e. an AND condition) or at least one them to be dominant? Or perhaps a combination of AND and OR?

rms2
06-04-2013, 10:56 AM
So, how do these SNPs work to produce red hair? That is, does a person need two or more of them to be present in the dominant form (i.e. an AND condition) or at least one them to be dominant? Or perhaps a combination of AND and OR?

I believe all you need is one of them, but since red hair is a recessive trait, you have to be homozygous to actually have red hair; having "TT" at rs1805008 is one example.

I also believe that different red hair variants prevail in different regions. SNPedia says, for example, that rs1805008 or Arg160Trp is the one primarily responsible for red hair in Ireland.

MJost
06-04-2013, 01:01 PM
Here is what I found from SNPedia and I have shown my alllele values

rs1805005 GT
Val60Leu or V60L, is a SNP in the MC1R gene associated with light blond hair color in one study. risk allele is rs1805005(T)

rs1805006
Asp84Glu or D84E, is one of several SNPs in the MC1R gene associated with higher risk of melanoma. risk allele is rs1805006(A)

Allelic odds ratio for pale skin


rs1805007 CC
Arg151Cys or R151C, one of several SNPs in the MC1R gene associated with red hair color (redheads), and in redheaded females, linked to being more responsive to the anesthetics pentazocine, nalbuphine, and butorphanol, often used by dentists [PMID 9571181, PMID 12663858, PMID 18488028] The risk allele is rs1805007(T)

The risk allele has also been reported in several studies to be associated with increased risk for melanoma. risk allele is (A)


rs1805008 CC
Arg160Trp or R160W, is one of several SNPs in the MC1R gene associated with red hair color (redheads), in this case in an Irish population. risk allele is rs1805008(T)


rs1805009 Asp294His or D294H and located in the MC1R gene, is the most common variant associated with red hair (redheads) and poor tanning ability in one study. risk allele is rs1805009(C)


MJost

newtoboard
06-04-2013, 07:16 PM
Any frequencies for Uralic speakers?

AJL
06-04-2013, 07:18 PM
Any frequencies for Uralic speakers?

Stats on Uralic speakers as a group, or are you just asking if there are any Estonians here that can post their results?

DMXX
06-05-2013, 09:42 AM
Any frequencies for Uralic speakers?

I don't know of any anthropology study which separates Eurasian results along linguistic parameters. Regardless, I doubt any attempt to do so will yield meaningful results.

You probably have the Udmurt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people) in mind, who are apparently exceptionally inclined to have redheads amongst them.

On that note, I've always found it interesting how this description as well as the location of Udmurtia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Udmurt_in_Russia.svg) correlates quite nicely with Greek accounts of the Budini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini), who were essentially described as forest-dwelling light-pigmented hunter-gatherers.

newtoboard
06-06-2013, 02:58 PM
I don't know of any anthropology study which separates Eurasian results along linguistic parameters. Regardless, I doubt any attempt to do so will yield meaningful results.

You probably have the Udmurt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people) in mind, who are apparently exceptionally inclined to have redheads amongst them.

On that note, I've always found it interesting how this description as well as the location of Udmurtia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Udmurt_in_Russia.svg) correlates quite nicely with Greek accounts of the Budini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini), who were essentially described as forest-dwelling light-pigmented hunter-gatherers.

Yea I was curious on why red hair seems to peak at opposite ends of Europe. Maybe isolation?

rms2
08-08-2013, 10:33 AM
Here's a photo of some Udmurts.

595

rms2
09-01-2013, 05:05 PM
Here's BritainsDNA's latest map of the frequency of carriers of at least one gene variant for red hair in the British Isles.

654

http://blog.britainsdna.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/08/Carriers.jpg

:beerchug:

Anglecynn
09-02-2013, 10:29 AM
My grandmother carries one gene variant for red hair, only person in my family that i know of. She is also the most Celtic person in the family too :)

rms2
09-02-2013, 01:08 PM
I know that y-dna and autosomal dna are separate entities, but I thought it would be interesting to post BritainsDNA's red hair gene map and the map of R-L21 side by side. They do look somewhat similar, even down to both having their lowest British frequencies in the southeast.

657 658

rms2
09-02-2013, 02:28 PM
Here's a photo of my youngest daughter from a few years ago.

660

Scarlet Ibis
09-02-2013, 05:13 PM
Here's a photo of my youngest daughter from a few years ago.

660


So cute :)

evon
09-02-2013, 05:46 PM
We have it in my family, i think its from my maternal grandfather, a picture of my mother and grandmother:
http://imageshack.us/a/img823/154/29880133414983035931349.jpg

My little brother was red as a child and is now dark blond with a red beard, i too have inherited this red beard, but with brown hair, as have my cousin..

Jean M
09-02-2013, 07:12 PM
Greek accounts of the Budini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini), who were essentially described as forest-dwelling light-pigmented hunter-gatherers.

Herodotus actually said the Budini had bright red hair.

basque
09-02-2013, 07:26 PM
I have one of the genes for red hair CT at 1805007 this comes from my paternal side my dad had light brown hair two of his sisters had red hair another had blonde hair, my hair was a strawberry blonde as a child and went darker as I got older but still has a lot of red in it.

basque :rolleyes:

rms2
09-03-2013, 12:04 AM
Here's food for thought.

665 666

Notice the drop in red hair variant frequency from Wales to England Central and how similar it is to the drop in L21 from Wales to the West Midlands of England. Coincidence?

Scarlet Ibis
09-03-2013, 01:28 AM
We have it in my family, i think its from my maternal grandfather, a picture of my mother and grandmother:
http://imageshack.us/a/img823/154/29880133414983035931349.jpg

My little brother was red as a child and is now dark blond with a red beard, i too have inherited this red beard, but with brown hair, as have my cousin..

What is that cutout on the background of the man holding an "I love you" sign?

evon
09-03-2013, 06:22 PM
What is that cutout on the background of the man holding an "I love you" sign?

Hippy generation i guess...i would have to ask her :P

basque
09-03-2013, 07:37 PM
What is that cutout on the background of the man holding an "I love you" sign?

Its Donny Osmond in the 1970s

Basque :rolleyes:

alan
09-03-2013, 10:27 PM
I wonder if you can see the effect of carrying just one marker instead of two in people who kind of have the super pale skin, some freckles etc but brown hair instead of red. That is a very common look among the Irish and Scots in particular especially obvious when young although less obvious when older.

ilmari
09-03-2013, 10:29 PM
Yep, basque beat me to the Donny Osmond answer! I had the same "outfit".

evon
09-04-2013, 09:34 PM
Yep, basque beat me to the Donny Osmond answer! I had the same "outfit".

picture? ;)

avalon
09-06-2013, 08:17 AM
Here is another map of the red hair allele MC1R from selected regions.

The hot spots here are in Denmark, Yorkshire and South East Wales so this shows some similarity to the BritainsDNA study.

Interestingly, this map shows MC1R being quite low in Ireland.

670

rms2
09-06-2013, 10:51 AM
Here is another map of the red hair allele MC1R from selected regions.

The hot spots here are in Denmark, Yorkshire and South East Wales so this shows some similarity to the BritainsDNA study.

Interestingly, this map shows MC1R being quite low in Ireland.

670

I haven't read that study, but I wonder which MC1R variant or variants were studied. That Irish result is so out of line with every other result I have read about that it makes the whole thing suspect.

rms2
09-06-2013, 11:25 AM
Here is what Maciamo Hay of Eupedia has to say about red hair:

The genetic causes, ethnic origins and history of red hair (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml)

I haven't read the whole thing yet. I don't see what his sources are, but he also has a red hair map there.

avalon
09-06-2013, 12:07 PM
The POBI project is also testing participants for red hair alleles and they released an early map of this in 2006.

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/press/nl1.pdf on page 3.

Norway and Ireland came out with the highest frequencies.

One thing I would say is that different studies into red hair genes sometimes produce different results. I guess this must depend on the sampling techniques used, locations sampled and whether or not the sample is statistically unbiased. For example, the POBI project relies on volunteers.

alan
09-06-2013, 04:53 PM
The lack of a Scottish sample except atypical Orkney is a pity. I think based on some other data that some parts of eastern and central Highland Scotland will match and even slightly exceed the Irish sample. However, red hair IMO will tend to manifest itself in areas of relative conservative tight knit populations. That is probably the biggest factor other than the actual presence of the genetic marker as it will heighten the chances of getting two copies. Broadly the distribution though is consistant in that it shows the north and west of the isles as higher in red hair and the markers while the SE is low. Its clear that Anglo-Saxons were not a rufus people and that the well known gingerness of the isles is an early genetic inheritance.

I actually have a hunch that this originates in the Mesolithic narrow blade group who were the first substantial permanent hunter settlers in much of Scotland and Ireland and spread throughout much of the isles. The ealiest date is from Cramond in eastern Scotland c. 8300BC and this group also built the famous Mesolithic sunstantial huts at Mount Sandell in Ulster and another one in Northumbria the name of which has slipped my mind. The dating suggests an eastern entry from the northern end of what was doggerland. I think this might be the urheimut of the ginger race lol.

You know gingers, well really male gingers, are somewhat persecuted in Britain and Ireland even though its most common there. Personally I think when a redhead woman is pretty it looks stunning.


The POBI project is also testing participants for red hair alleles and they released an early map of this in 2006.

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/press/nl1.pdf on page 3.

Norway and Ireland came out with the highest frequencies.

One thing I would say is that different studies into red hair genes sometimes produce different results. I guess this must depend on the sampling techniques used, locations sampled and whether or not the sample is statistically unbiased. For example, the POBI project relies on volunteers.

rms2
09-07-2013, 12:24 AM
Interestingly, Norway has the highest frequency of L21 in Scandinavia. If L21 there mostly represents British Isles input in the Viking Age and subsequently, that might account for Norway's high frequency (at least as shown on the POBI map) of red hair carriers.

Regarding the different results obtained in different studies, I have wondered at that, too. I suspect these studies are testing for different red hair variants, although I don't know that for sure. There are a handful of red hair variants, and it occurs to me that different variants might be responsible for the red hair in different regions. In other words, the variant that makes the Udmurts rufous might not be the same one that makes the Irish rufous, and so on.

Curious
09-07-2013, 12:59 AM
The lack of a Scottish sample except atypical Orkney is a pity. I think based on some other data that some parts of eastern and central Highland Scotland will match and even slightly exceed the Irish sample. ... I actually have a hunch that this originates in the Mesolithic narrow blade group who were the first substantial permanent hunter settlers in much of Scotland and Ireland and spread throughout much of the isles. The ealiest date is from Cramond in eastern Scotland c. 8300BC ...

I agree that the estimate is low for Scotland. A lot of Scots have red hair. But, given that red hair is a recessive trait, if it arrived in Scotland and Ireland at an early date, how does that interact with the idea that most early male lineages were replaced? If a man without the red hair trait is married to a woman with red hair, would that not produce children with the trait but with no red hair? Would red hair re-emerge eventually if enough folks married their cousins? And does that relate to your comment about red hair tending to manifest itself in areas of relative conservative tight knit populations?

avalon
09-07-2013, 07:06 AM
The lack of a Scottish sample except atypical Orkney is a pity. I think based on some other data that some parts of eastern and central Highland Scotland will match and even slightly exceed the Irish sample. However, red hair IMO will tend to manifest itself in areas of relative conservative tight knit populations. That is probably the biggest factor other than the actual presence of the genetic marker as it will heighten the chances of getting two copies. Broadly the distribution though is consistant in that it shows the north and west of the isles as higher in red hair and the markers while the SE is low. Its clear that Anglo-Saxons were not a rufus people and that the well known gingerness of the isles is an early genetic inheritance.

I actually have a hunch that this originates in the Mesolithic narrow blade group who were the first substantial permanent hunter settlers in much of Scotland and Ireland and spread throughout much of the isles. The ealiest date is from Cramond in eastern Scotland c. 8300BC and this group also built the famous Mesolithic sunstantial huts at Mount Sandell in Ulster and another one in Northumbria the name of which has slipped my mind. The dating suggests an eastern entry from the northern end of what was doggerland. I think this might be the urheimut of the ginger race lol.

You know gingers, well really male gingers, are somewhat persecuted in Britain and Ireland even though its most common there. Personally I think when a redhead woman is pretty it looks stunning.

I like your theory that red hair arrived with hunter-gathers in Britain, it makes sense to me. Hypothetically, I can imagine a scenario where actual red hair was once at high frequencies during the Mesolithic and that subsequent waves of Neolithic and Metal Age incomers diluted the frequency to the low count we see today, whilst at the same time absorbing the genes for red hair from the existing inhabitants. Hence, we now see high frequencies of genes for red hair but low frequencies of actual red hair.

I would also reiterate my point that whilst red hair in the Isles is largely pre-Roman I believe people like the Danes and Flemings may have brought a small element to Britain as well.

avalon
09-07-2013, 07:23 AM
I agree that the estimate is low for Scotland. A lot of Scots have red hair. But, given that red hair is a recessive trait, if it arrived in Scotland and Ireland at an early date, how does that interact with the idea that most early male lineages were replaced? If a man without the red hair trait is married to a woman with red hair, would that not produce children with the trait but with no red hair? Would red hair re-emerge eventually if enough folks married their cousins? And does that relate to your comment about red hair tending to manifest itself in areas of relative conservative tight knit populations?

So much in these genetic studies depends on the precise locations and methods of sampling. As alan has said geographic isolation can breed certain characteristics in local areas not replicated elsewhere. So, obviously Orkney shouldn't be taken as a proxy for the whole of Scotland, just as Donegal isn't a proxy for the rest of Ireland.

Regarding hunter gather male lineages dying out, their red haired genes would still be passed on through their daughters, who then married a Neolithic man and so on...

Also, whilst it is true that the Scots are stereotypically the most ginger haired in Britain, only 6% of Scots actually have red hair according to BritainsDNA.

rms2
09-07-2013, 11:45 AM
I like your theory that red hair arrived with hunter-gathers in Britain, it makes sense to me. Hypothetically, I can imagine a scenario where actual red hair was once at high frequencies during the Mesolithic and that subsequent waves of Neolithic and Metal Age incomers diluted the frequency to the low count we see today, whilst at the same time absorbing the genes for red hair from the existing inhabitants. Hence, we now see high frequencies of genes for red hair but low frequencies of actual red hair.

I would also reiterate my point that whilst red hair in the Isles is largely pre-Roman I believe people like the Danes and Flemings may have brought a small element to Britain as well.

I would like to know which red hair variants are most prevalent in which regions. Is the red hair variant most common among the Danes, for example, the same one that is most common in Ireland?

Personally, it seems to me the areas most heavily settled by Danish Vikings are among the lowest for red hair carriers, at least according to the BritainsDNA red hair carrier map. I'm less sure about Flemings, but were they ever so numerous in Britain as to make much of a genetic impact one way or the other?

rms2
09-07-2013, 12:25 PM
Here's a photo of my dad's older sister, Lois, who, obviously, had red hair, and her husband, my Uncle Charles.

673

May dad's maternal grandmother was a McElroy, a surname which in Gaelic means "son of the red youth", or so I am told.

Here's a not-all-that-good photo of my youngest son and his kids (my grandkids). My son is a "strawberry blond", but his kids are all redheads. Their mother, who is Russian, is a redhead. As you can see, my son likes to ham it up for the camera. :)

674

Curious
09-07-2013, 01:37 PM
So much in these genetic studies depends on the precise locations and methods of sampling. As alan has said geographic isolation can breed certain characteristics in local areas not replicated elsewhere. So, obviously Orkney shouldn't be taken as a proxy for the whole of Scotland, just as Donegal isn't a proxy for the rest of Ireland.

Regarding hunter gather male lineages dying out, their red haired genes would still be passed on through their daughters, who then married a Neolithic man and so on...

Also, whilst it is true that the Scots are stereotypically the most ginger haired in Britain, only 6% of Scots actually have red hair according to BritainsDNA.

Yes, I acknowledged in my post that a tendency for red hair would have survived but, as I stated, I'm curious about the circumstances in which actual red hair would have re-emerged in a scenario where there would continue to be incomers who didn't have a rufus tendency. And I think 6% is too low an estimate - I know for a fact that some Scots colour their hair because they don't want to be seen as gingers.

rms2
09-07-2013, 01:52 PM
Yes, I acknowledged in my post that a tendency for red hair would have survived but, as I stated, I'm curious about the circumstances in which actual red hair would have re-emerged in a scenario where there would continue to be incomers who didn't have a rufus tendency. And I think 6% is too low an estimate - I know for a fact that some Scots colour their hair because they don't want to be seen as gingers.

Probably a better measure would be a genetic one: count as redheads those people who are homozygous for at least one of the red hair variants and whose untreated head hair is some version of red.

I think as everyone has probably noticed, there are many shades of red hair. I have seen folks who have a head of flaming orange hair who are the classic redheads (like my Aunt Lois) and others whose hair color, although orange, is more muted.

As I mentioned at the start of this thread, I carry one of the red hair variants, but I have dark hair (or had dark hair, before it started turning white). My moustache and beard, however, have a lot of red in them.

Curious
09-07-2013, 02:40 PM
Probably a better measure would be a genetic one: count as redheads those people who are homozygous for at least one of the red hair variants and whose untreated head hair is some version of red. ....

That was kind of my point - if red hair was an ancient British trait, why wouldn't it have been swamped by incomers without red hair, so that in spite of many people having the tendency for red hair, there would be few who actually had red hair? Whereas there are actually quite a few redheads of various shades in Britain and Ireland, even if they are a (sometimes persecuted) minority. And how do you explain the fact that red hair is found all over northern Europe, in various pockets? The article in Eupedia links red hair with the IE expansion, and I personally find that idea to be more plausible.

rms2
09-07-2013, 02:53 PM
That was kind of my point - if red hair was an ancient British trait, why wouldn't it have been swamped by incomers without red hair, so that in spite of many people having the tendency for red hair, there would be few who actually had red hair? Whereas there are actually quite a few redheads of various shades in Britain and Ireland, even if they are a (sometimes persecuted) minority. And how do you explain the fact that red hair is found all over northern Europe, in various pockets? The article in Eupedia links red hair with the IE expansion, and I personally find that idea to be more plausible.

It kind of was swamped - somewhat - by incomers. That BritainsDNA red hair carriers map shows the lowest frequencies of red hair in the places most thickly settled by Anglo-Saxons and Danes. The places where the Celts held out in greater numbers are also the places with the highest frequencies of red hair carriers.

675

Anglecynn
09-07-2013, 03:01 PM
I would like to know which red hair variants are most prevalent in which regions. Is the red hair variant most common among the Danes, for example, the same one that is most common in Ireland?

Personally, it seems to me the areas most heavily settled by Danish Vikings are among the lowest for red hair carriers, at least according to the BritainsDNA red hair carrier map. I'm less sure about Flemings, but were they ever so numerous in Britain as to make much of a genetic impact one way or the other?

I think there were a few areas with significant Flemish settlement. I heard that in a small part of southern Wales, Flemish was the main language for some time.

Curious
09-07-2013, 03:37 PM
It kind of was swamped - somewhat - by incomers. That BritainsDNA red hair carriers map shows the lowest frequencies of red hair in the places most thickly settled by Anglo-Saxons and Danes. The places where the Celts held out in greater numbers are also the places with the highest frequencies of red hair carriers.

675

And you don't associate the Celts with the IE expansion? I was replying to someone who associated red hair with the Mesolithic inhabitants of Britain.

Jean M
09-07-2013, 09:41 PM
Private Eye no. 1348 (19 September 2013) has a column on p. 31 fulminating about BritainsDNA publishing the data on red hair genetics on their blog without peer-review, and the way this got taken up unquestioningly by the British press. This follows a previous column in issue 1345, attacking Moffat for his "ludicrous but headline-grabbing claims". Looks like it was penned by either Prof. David Balding or Prof. Mark Thomas. They are not giving up.

Curious
09-07-2013, 09:57 PM
If it's wrong to put something in a blog without first having it peer reviewed, an awful lot of folks are in trouble. Or was it just that criticizing the lack of peer review was simpler than trying to addressing the data?

Jean M
09-07-2013, 10:50 PM
@ Curious - This was just another round of a long-running public battle.

The drama started with an injudicious radio interview by Alistair Moffatt in July 2012 promoting his collaboration with Jim Wilson in the testing firm BritainsDNA (also trading as ScotlandsDNA etc). It demonstrated a poor grasp of genetics. Prof. Mark Thomas and his UCL colleague David Balding listened to it and asked questions of the Britain’s DNA scientific team; the questions have not been satisfactorily answered. Instead, a threat of legal action was issued by solicitors for Mr Moffat. The story went public in December 2012 on the blog Genomes Unzipped, under the heading "Exaggerations and errors in the promotion of genetic ancestry testing": http://www.genomesunzipped.org/2012/12/exaggerations-and-errors-in-the-promotion-of-genetic-ancestry-testing.php

Undeterred, Alistair Moffat gave a presentation at the Who Do You Think You Are roadshow. I quote someone present "It was excruciatingly painful to listen to, if you knew anything serious about haplogroups and genetic diversity and movement." The chap I quote had given out two free tickets for Mark Thomas and David Balding to attend. It stoked the fires of grievance. The last straw was Jim Wilson's claim to the press in connection with said WDYTYA show that "One million Brits are 'descended from Romans' " http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9888402/One-million-Brits-descended-from-Romans.html . This is on the basis of the marker R1b-U152/S28, which most probably arrived in Britain with La Tene. Prof. Mark Thomas is enraged by them and went into print in the Guardian to say so:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2013/feb/25/viking-ancestors-astrology

GailT
09-08-2013, 06:03 AM
The problem with Moffat is that he simplifies DNA to the point where his statement are not just factually wrong, they become just plain nonsense. Remember the Scottish lecturer with mtDNA haplogroup L0 who is the "grandfather of everyone in Britain" (link) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9363268/Scottish-lecturer-found-to-be-grandfather-of-everyone-in-Britain.html). The newspaper report is riddled with obvious errors, and Moffat is quoted saying:



It is an astonishing result and means he could have been in the 'Garden of Eden'

avalon
09-08-2013, 06:27 PM
It kind of was swamped - somewhat - by incomers. That BritainsDNA red hair carriers map shows the lowest frequencies of red hair in the places most thickly settled by Anglo-Saxons and Danes. The places where the Celts held out in greater numbers are also the places with the highest frequencies of red hair carriers.

675

Well, Yorkshire was heavily settled by the Danes and it has the highest % red hair genes in England according to BritainsDNA. Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire were also settled by the Danes but we don't have a % breakdown for these counties - they are included in other, broad regions.

I would also point out that Cornwall is the most "Celtic" area in England, they held out far longer against the "English" than did the inhabitants of Northern England. All the red hair gene studies I have seen show Cornwall with noticeably lower frequencies than Northern England.

avalon
09-08-2013, 06:48 PM
Yes, I acknowledged in my post that a tendency for red hair would have survived but, as I stated, I'm curious about the circumstances in which actual red hair would have re-emerged in a scenario where there would continue to be incomers who didn't have a rufus tendency. And I think 6% is too low an estimate - I know for a fact that some Scots colour their hair because they don't want to be seen as gingers.

Presumably BritainsDNA had a good reason to estimate 6%, maybe they actually surveyed people, I don't know? I believe the most extensive study of hair colour in Scotland was carried out by Tocher and Grey in 1900 with a systematic survey of 7,000 adults and they said it was 5% red hair so the 6% figure seems reasonable.

I have never read of any study that shows Scotland with greater than 10% of people with red hair? Even allowing for 10% as a high end estimate, which I think it is, then this is still a small minority of the population.

avalon
09-08-2013, 07:05 PM
I think there were a few areas with significant Flemish settlement. I heard that in a small part of southern Wales, Flemish was the main language for some time.

Indeed. The Normans managed to penetrate right along the South Wales coast and establish themselves in Gwent, Vale of Glamorgan, Gower and Pembrokeshire. The 12th century Anglo-Flemish plantation in Southern Pembrokeshire was substantial - a Welsh chronicle records the native Welsh as being forced to leave the area.

Interestingly, an anthropological survey of Wales published in 1958 found that Southern Pembrokeshire had very high levels of red hair compared to the rest of Wales. Of course this may have nothing to do with the Flemings.

rms2
09-09-2013, 11:39 AM
I doubt the Flemings had much to do with red hair in the British Isles. Look at the places where their closest genetic cousins, the Anglo-Saxons, settled. At least according to the BritainsDNA red hair carriers map, those are the places with the lowest frequencies of red hair carriers.

Curious
09-09-2013, 04:57 PM
Presumably BritainsDNA had a good reason to estimate 6%, maybe they actually surveyed people, I don't know? I believe the most extensive study of hair colour in Scotland was carried out by Tocher and Grey in 1900 with a systematic survey of 7,000 adults and they said it was 5% red hair so the 6% figure seems reasonable.

I have never read of any study that shows Scotland with greater than 10% of people with red hair? Even allowing for 10% as a high end estimate, which I think it is, then this is still a small minority of the population.


Wikipedia states that redheads constitute approximately 4% of the European population but Scotland has the highest proportion of redheads with 13% of the population having red hair and approximately 40% carrying the recessive redhead gene. Wikipedia also states that Ireland has the second highest percentage with as many as 10% of the Irish population having red, auburn, or strawberry blond hair and up to 46% of carrying the recessive redhead gene. And is Wikipedia ever inaccurate? (Please don't answer that question.) Obviously, any count of people who have actual red hair could vary vastly, depending on how one defines the term "redhead", so I'd be dubious about comparing any figures for two populations unless I was sure those figures came from the same study.

Curious
09-09-2013, 05:04 PM
The Eupedia article on red hair has two maps showing the distribution of Y haplotype R1b and red hair in Europe, and they seem to match up very well, except for a large blotch of redheads right in the middle of western Russia. If we assume that in many cases people who are R1b also inherited the mutation for red hair, and if we accept the now current idea that R1b matches the westward IE expansion, I think we pretty much have to accept the idea that red hair is associated withe the IE expansion into western Europe. Perhaps those redheaded Russians would be a better choice for people inheriting the redhead mutation from the pre-IE side of the family.

Anglecynn
09-09-2013, 06:57 PM
The Eupedia article on red hair has two maps showing the distribution of Y haplotype R1b and red hair in Europe, and they seem to match up very well, except for a large blotch of redheads right in the middle of western Russia. If we assume that in many cases people who are R1b also inherited the mutation for red hair, and if we accept the now current idea that R1b matches the westward IE expansion, I think we pretty much have to accept the idea that red hair is associated withe the IE expansion into western Europe. Perhaps those redheaded Russians would be a better choice for people inheriting the redhead mutation from the pre-IE side of the family.

I think it's spread across most of Europe but the pooling roughly where R1b has pooled is supportive of that scenario indeed.

avalon
09-10-2013, 04:01 PM
Wikipedia states that redheads constitute approximately 4% of the European population but Scotland has the highest proportion of redheads with 13% of the population having red hair and approximately 40% carrying the recessive redhead gene. Wikipedia also states that Ireland has the second highest percentage with as many as 10% of the Irish population having red, auburn, or strawberry blond hair and up to 46% of carrying the recessive redhead gene. And is Wikipedia ever inaccurate? (Please don't answer that question.) Obviously, any count of people who have actual red hair could vary vastly, depending on how one defines the term "redhead", so I'd be dubious about comparing any figures for two populations unless I was sure those figures came from the same study.

The 13% quoted by wikipedia doesn't appear to be based on any study at all, to me it looks like a total guess. The 10% for Ireland however was based on the Harvard Study so I would give that more credence.

Having said that, it is my personal experience that Scots are the most red-headed in Britain but I still think 13% is too high.

And I agree that hair colour studies are very tricky because there are so many shades and definitions.

rms2
09-11-2013, 12:46 AM
I know this is just anecdotal information, so take it for what it's worth, but when I was in Ireland back in March I saw what seemed to me to be an exceptional number of redheads. They were everywhere. My daughter fit right in. I recall some really strikingly beautiful female redheads, with freckles across the bridge of the nose, light eyes, and, of course, stunning orange locks, like the foliage of the Sugar Maple in autumn.

geebee
09-11-2013, 10:05 AM
... like the foliage of the Sugar Maple in autumn.

Ummm. Can't wait to get back to Pennsylvania at the end of this month. We have no seasons where I'm living most of the time -- Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, just 3 degrees about the equator. So no autumn, no autumn colors. :(

EDIT: My understanding, though, is that many folks who are not noticeably redheads actually just have a red sheen on very dark hair. They have some, though not all, of the same genes that produce red hair in people whose hair would otherwise just be light brown or nearly blond.

rms2
09-12-2013, 12:06 PM
When I was younger I was told I had "red highlights" in my otherwise dark brown hair. They were supposed to be particularly noticeable in the sunlight. As I mentioned early on in this thread, I carry one of the red hair variants: rs1805008, otherwise known as as R160W, Arg160Trp, or "tryptophan red". But I am heterozygous for it, so I don't actually have red hair. I guess carrying one variant is enough to produce a few red hairs here and there.

avalon
09-12-2013, 01:11 PM
@rms2
Cross posted from another thread about possible Danish red haired input into Britain.


I'm not at home, so I don't have access to Busby's spreadsheet (it's on my home computer), but I remember pretty well that the level of L21 is significantly higher in Busby's northern England sample than in its central and southeastern England samples. I'm not saying L21=red hair, that would be silly, but if one accepts L21 as a reasonable proxy for the insular Celts, and thus an indication of Celtic survival in an area, then the higher rate of red hair carriers in Yorkshire could be down to a higher rate of Celtic survival, just as it appears to be in the other places on that BritainsDNA red hair carriers map.

I've just checked and you are right - per Busby's sample from Leeds, L21 was 40% but in East England it was 12.8%. Leeds is of course part of the old West Riding and is also the location of "The Kingdom of Elmet" which was a Brythonic kingdom that lasted until the 7th century. There may well be a good case for Celtic survival in this area. I think that North Yorkshire and Humberside may be different though because Anglian and Danish placenames are more abundant there but I am not aware of any L21 data for these parts of Yorskshire.

This map shows that Celtic placenames are most common in South West Yorkshire.

678


I haven't read the Royrvik report, but I suspect it tested some sort of red hair variant that is particularly Scandinavian, or perhaps the one most common in Scandinavia. I suspect that is the case because of the oddly low frequency for Ireland. I have never seen a result that low for Ireland, so I would like to know which variant or variants she looked at.

I would agree with this but the Royrvik study does still indicate that the Danes do carry some variant of red hair genes.

rms2
09-12-2013, 11:45 PM
It could be that Danes contributed some red hair variant or variants in Yorkshire. It would be interesting to know if the variant or variants commonest in Denmark differ from those in, say, Ireland or Wales. If there is such a difference, parsing the variants might tell us who is likely to have contributed what and where.

Anglecynn
09-13-2013, 12:30 AM
It could be that Danes contributed some red hair variant or variants in Yorkshire. It would be interesting to know if the variant or variants commonest in Denmark differ from those in, say, Ireland or Wales. If there is such a difference, parsing the variants might tell us who is likely to have contributed what and where.

I think there was a map or graph or something related to that that did indeed show that the Danish type mutations were much more common in the east and in Yorkshire, but i can't remember where i saw it. I think it may have been posted on the old DNA forums perhaps.

rms2
12-18-2013, 12:54 AM
I recently got the results of my Chromo2 Complete test from BritainsDNA, which includes the "Red-Head" test of the 40 or so genetic variants for red hair. Here's part of what appears on my "myDNA" pages:




You are a
Carrier

You have a copy of the red-head variant
Arg160Trp
in your MC1R gene

This is a strong variant and you are a carrier of the red hair trait.

It is highly unlikely you have red or strawberry blond hair but may pass the trait on to your children.

Ponto
12-29-2013, 04:55 AM
rs1805008 CT

Dark haired. Children (4), red haired.

newtoboard
01-04-2014, 04:01 PM
It would be interesting if there was a way to gauge the relationship between the proportion of ANE and that of red hair carriers (not necessarily actual redheads) in a population.

That would be interesting. I am not that knowledgable about pigmentation issues but is auburn/chestnut hair a result of its own mutations or a result of carrying dark hair alleles alongside the mutation for red hair?

Jean M
01-04-2014, 04:06 PM
I have a section on red hair on my Looks page: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/looks.shtml#redhair but I'm not sure if it is right up to date.

rms2
01-04-2014, 04:17 PM
That would be interesting. I am not that knowledgable about pigmentation issues but is auburn/chestnut hair a result of its own mutations or a result of carrying dark hair alleles alongside the mutation for red hair?

I carry one of the MC1R variants for red hair (Arg160Trp), confirmed both by my FTDNA Family Finder result and by my BritainsDNA Chromo2 Complete result. My hair is gray now, but I started out blond as a boy. My hair went pretty dark in my twenties but always had what people told me were "red highlights". My beard and moustache had a lot of red and blond hair in them. I had freckles as a kid, especially across the bridge of my nose and my cheeks, but they faded away as I became an adult. I have a ruddy complexion.

My youngest son was born with red hair, but it changed to strawberry blond. Now his hair is kind of a dull reddish-blond. All three of his kids, two boys and a girl, have red hair, but so does their mother (a Russian). My youngest daughter has red hair.

All this is why red hair is kind of a pet interest of mine.

alan
01-04-2014, 04:23 PM
I suppose we have to bear in mind that even in pre-farming times the population was not uniform. The ancient DNA does indicate that at least one of the groups that penetrated into Sweden before 5500BC had ANE while other hunters in central Europe did not. Its not impossible that a group on a northern fringe trajectory at the end of the Palaeolithic/early Mesolithic that reached Sweden could have continued along the northern fringes of Europe and passed into other parts of Scandinavia, doggerland and the isles without entering central Europe. Maybe red hair was similar in that its modern distribution looks like a NW European thing with a similarity to the zone of late farming take-up in northern Europe. High amounts of Red hair may have been specific to these late hunters for some reason. I am not saying the peculiarity of ENE in the Scandinavian hunters and red hair are linked but I wouldnt rule out this possibility totally.

New land was opening up in those areas and settlement was often appearing surprisingly close to the edge of the ice sheets and polar deserts at first opportunity as conditions improved. Its additionally complex because of the oscillation of the climate in the period 12000-9000BC.

I have been digging around to see if there is anything in the archaeology of the lands south of Sweden that might explain how and when ANE entered Sweden. We know Sweden wasnt settled at all until something like 8000BC give or take a few centuries so we need to look at what entered Sweden and when in the timeframe c. 8000-5500BC and then look at the origins of the same group in their pre-Sweden days before that to try and work out how ANE could have entered. My initial reading of new stuff on Sweden suggests that the earliest settlers probaby came from Denmark, itself most likely settled from the south and west. Denmark and the entire south north Sea into England was also linked in the early Mesolithic so whoever could get to Sweden could also get to the Britain c. 8000BC.

Forward winding a few thousand years, the pointed pot phenomenon in Ertebole culture around 5500BC is interesting. Could the early mystery clades of R1a in Scandinavia and northern Europe relate to this and the ENE element noted in Sweden around this time? Certainly there was an apparent diffusion of the pointed based pots from east to west (with deeper roots further east and ultimately east Asia) along the edge of the north European plain as far as the Low Countries around this sort of time and perhaps ENE made its first appearance into Europe west of the old Iron Curtain line along with this. Potters may have been female though so it may not have a neat and tidy yDNA correspondence.

There do seem to be some significant changes in the Mesolithic and we probably should not view the hunter-gatherers as set in stone genetically right up to the farming period. Changes and new inputs may have been taking place in the centuries before farming too. To give a single example, the narrow blade microlithic tradition overlaid the older broad blade Maglemose traditions of the south north Sea and England/southern Scotland. We have no idea how much of this change was migratory and how much was simply functional change. The earliest RC dates for this actually come from Cramond in SE Scotland c. 8300BC. That seems to indicate it may have come from a tradition established originally in doggerland - perhaps due to a lack of flint sources in much of that area. Were new genes involved?

I am not saying this is linked to ANE or red hair or anything in particular. I am just demonstrating one of many examples of how dynamic the Mesolithic was - a lot more dynamic than the upper palaeolithic where one culture and its variants could cover vast areas for thousands of years. Although the Neolithic had a more dramatic impact, the Mesolithic could well have been a time when diversity commenced among the hunters and altered some (but perhaps not others) of the previously uniform looking palaeolithic hunter groups of temperate Europe and the period c. 9000-5000BC among non-farmers probably deserves a closer look in terms of genetics

vettor
01-04-2014, 04:30 PM
I carry one of the MC1R variants for red hair (Arg160Trp), confirmed both by my FTDNA Family Finder result and by my BritainsDNA Chromo2 Complete result. My hair is gray now, but I started out blond as a boy. My hair went pretty dark in my twenties but always had what people told me were "red highlights". My beard and moustache had a lot of red and blond hair in them. I had freckles as a kid, especially across the bridge of my nose and my cheeks, but they faded away as I became an adult. I have a ruddy complexion.

My youngest son was born with red hair, but it changed to strawberry blond. Now his hair is kind of a dull reddish-blond. All three of his kids, two boys and a girl, have red hair, but so does their mother (a Russian). My youngest daughter has red hair.

All this is why red hair is kind of a pet interest of mine.

The Udmurt people of the urals should be your source for your pet interest

Anthropologists relate Udmurts to the Urals branch of Europeans. Most of them are of the middle size, often have blue or gray eyes, high cheek-bones and wide face.[citation needed] The Udmurt people are not of an athletic build but they are very hardy.[6] and there have been claims that they are the "most red-headed" people in the world.[7] Additionally, the ancient Budini tribe, which is speculated to be an ancestor of the modern Udmurts, were described by Herodotus as being predominantly red-headed.

alan
01-04-2014, 05:06 PM
I am not certain but I strongly suspect Red hair and very fair or freckly skin are connected because you almost never see a redhead (certainly in Ireland) who doesnt have extremely fair or freckly skin - it would look odd. I strongly suspect a single copy of the red hair marker (as is apparently the case with an additional third of the population in Ireland who are not redheads) leads to the very common Irish type of brunette hair and very fair freckled skin (usually with light eyes). This common type is what I kind of think as 'dark haired gingers' which might sound a contradiction but there are a lot of brown haired Irish people who other than the darker hair have that redhead look of extremely little pigment in the skin, freckles and light eyes. Kind of a look like you would get if a ginger person dyed their hair and eyebrows dark. I believe that Hooton found that 60% of the population had the freckly ultra pale skin in SW Ireland even though its the darkest haired part of Ireland. Male examples of this sort of person usually also often have red in the facial hair. This red hair skin type on brunettes is most obvious when people are young IMO and is easily damaged and is much less obvious when older and goes either ruddy/weatherbeaten (men tend to go that way more) or loses its pale rosyness and freckles to go a deathly pale (women tend to do the colour drained thing more).

alan
01-04-2014, 05:10 PM
They are interesting. I believe they are a Komi subdivision of some sort. The Udmurt people dont have much R, they are mostly N, but other Komi groups do have a lot of R1a and b. Someone also concluded that the Komi were a new pole of European autosomal genetics in a paper last year. Is there any data on these peoples and ENE in that paper? I have to head to the shops so I dont have time to check right now.


The Udmurt people of the urals should be your source for your pet interest

Anthropologists relate Udmurts to the Urals branch of Europeans. Most of them are of the middle size, often have blue or gray eyes, high cheek-bones and wide face.[citation needed] The Udmurt people are not of an athletic build but they are very hardy.[6] and there have been claims that they are the "most red-headed" people in the world.[7] Additionally, the ancient Budini tribe, which is speculated to be an ancestor of the modern Udmurts, were described by Herodotus as being predominantly red-headed.

alan
01-04-2014, 05:12 PM
If its the same marker then somehow someway this strange blob on the redhaired map that looks out of place in Russia must be connected with the NW European group. Maybe a survival/isolate?


The Udmurt people of the urals should be your source for your pet interest

Anthropologists relate Udmurts to the Urals branch of Europeans. Most of them are of the middle size, often have blue or gray eyes, high cheek-bones and wide face.[citation needed] The Udmurt people are not of an athletic build but they are very hardy.[6] and there have been claims that they are the "most red-headed" people in the world.[7] Additionally, the ancient Budini tribe, which is speculated to be an ancestor of the modern Udmurts, were described by Herodotus as being predominantly red-headed.

vettor
01-04-2014, 05:35 PM
If its the same marker then somehow someway this strange blob on the redhaired map that looks out of place in Russia must be connected with the NW European group. Maybe a survival/isolate?

these Udmurts look Irish to me

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=udmurts&client=firefox-a&hs=NjW&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=np&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=_UXIUoW-LY2KiQfH-oGIDQ&ved=0CE0QsAQ&biw=1585&bih=773

alan
01-04-2014, 06:07 PM
It seems unlikely from the red hair maps that the Udmurts owe their red hair to the Russians because it is rare among them. Could be a fluke founder effect but it would be a lot more fun to speculate that it could be a remnant of some hunter groups pre-dating the main N line Siberians of today. The Komi autosomal pole suggested recently could suggest there was some sort of unique remnant among them. Just guessing because I dont follow the autosomal stuff closely and its pretty hard to understand a lot of it.

newtoboard
01-04-2014, 06:33 PM
How do you know it was Russians specifically? Jean's site has some info about there being descriptions of red haired people in that region long before Rusians existed. In that scenario forest steppe Baltic and the cultures formed as a result of Andronovo expansion into the forest steppe (called Andronovoid by scholars) cultures are more likely to be the source.

Jean M
01-04-2014, 06:52 PM
The Udmurts are Uralic speakers. There are many different alleles for red hair and I have no idea which one is found in Udmurts.

newtoboard
01-04-2014, 07:00 PM
I read unlikely as likely. Ignore my post.

alan
01-04-2014, 08:01 PM
There is an odd phenomenon that the classical sources incredibly often described red hair among all sorts of 'barbarian' groups whose apparent descendants today dont have a lot of it but are noted for having light hair. IMO I doubt that they were describing what we think of as red hair today. Perhaps more likely in some cases they were noting the kind of dirty fair/mousy fair hair that is common in adults of the same groups today.

rms2
01-04-2014, 10:36 PM
. . . How about moving this discussion to the thread on red hair? http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?979-Red-Hair

Then interested parties would know where to find it.

That's a good idea, but it would be nice if one of the mods or admins could split off all the "redhead" posts and stick them in the Red Hair thread.

newtoboard
01-04-2014, 11:10 PM
There is an odd phenomenon that the classical sources incredibly often described red hair among all sorts of 'barbarian' groups whose apparent descendants today dont have a lot of it but are noted for having light hair. IMO I doubt that they were describing what we think of as red hair today. Perhaps more likely in some cases they were noting the kind of dirty fair/mousy fair hair that is common in adults of the same groups today.

Which groups are you referring to?

alan
01-04-2014, 11:47 PM
Classical sources attribute red hair to all sorts of groups like Germanics and I am pretty sure Slavics and I am pretty sure from memory steppe groups too. A lot of groups where it certainly isnt that common today. I recall as study where the issue of classical references to red hair among Germans but the relative lack today was considered by ancient DNA of Medieval Germans and they found no red hair.

However, I suppose something doesnt really have to be that common for people to stereotype in descriptions. There is always been a tendency, even today, to stereotype nations based on striking but small minorities even if its only 10% or less - like red hair among Scots and Irish which has remained a stereotype into modern times. The human mind seems better at seeing difference than similarities (probably a cause of a lot of trouble in the world) and seems to focus on relatively small but striking things that look alien to them and then magnify them into stereotypes.


Which groups are you referring to?

rms2
01-04-2014, 11:51 PM
I recall reading somewhere that the Romans once surprised a band of German warriors in the process of dying their hair red and blond (probably with henna). I know I read it somewhere; I just can't recall where. Maybe Tacitus?

alan
01-04-2014, 11:58 PM
Come to think of it I think Thracians and also Ligurians too were described as red haired. Seems to that most populations of temperate Europe have been described as red haired at one time or other.


Classical sources attribute red hair to all sorts of groups like Germanics and I am pretty sure Slavics and I am pretty sure from memory steppe groups too. A lot of groups where it certainly isnt that common today. I recall as study where the issue of classical references to red hair among Germans but the relative lack today was considered by ancient DNA of Medieval Germans and they found no red hair.

However, I suppose something doesnt really have to be that common for people to stereotype in descriptions. There is always been a tendency, even today, to stereotype nations based on striking but small minorities even if its only 10% or less - like red hair among Scots and Irish which has remained a stereotype into modern times. The human mind seems better at seeing difference than similarities (probably a cause of a lot of trouble in the world) and seems to focus on relatively small but striking things that look alien to them and then magnify them into stereotypes.

newtoboard
01-05-2014, 12:18 AM
Yea the likelihood of Thracians being light pigmented or red haired is low given their Balkan ancestry. Plus even Proto Thracians ( catacomb culture) were darker pigmented than other IE groups in all likelihood.

Anglecynn
01-05-2014, 02:29 AM
I recall reading somewhere that the Romans once surprised a band of German warriors in the process of dying their hair red and blond (probably with henna). I know I read it somewhere; I just can't recall where. Maybe Tacitus?

Could be, i think it's either Tacitus or Caesar that describes the Gauls for example having yellow hair, 'but not only naturally so' because they also died it. So evidently most of these groups did have naturally yellow and red hair in some amount, but as we know that people have been modifying their bodies for a long time, and hair-dying is specifically described, i'd imagine if it was a cultural things among some tribes to dye their hair, as well as having various amounts of naturally occurring light hair - It may match the descriptions of them all being tall, pale and light featured. If the more medium brown shades with light undertones that are common in northern Europe were not that common in much of southern Europe, the natural occurrence of light hair, plus the dominance of light eyes and of pale skin, and then additionally the dyed hair probably makes their descriptions quite accurate, purely as descriptions.

ADW_1981
01-05-2014, 02:47 AM
Yea the likelihood of Thracians being light pigmented or red haired is low given their Balkan ancestry. Plus even Proto Thracians ( catacomb culture) were darker pigmented than other IE groups in all likelihood.

Not sure. Modern Balkan people cannot be a 1:1 proxy for ancient groups like Thracians. The most likely explanation is later groups such as R1b and R1a moved across territory inhabited by I2a1b folks (and other hg I groups) who seem to have been dark complexioned and dark haired as per recent studies. I think Jean M's hypothesis is most correct, dairy farmer pastoralists are probably linked to the spread of R1b and the lactose digestion genes which originated in west-central Asia.

newtoboard
01-05-2014, 02:59 AM
I was using the Catacomb culture as a proxy for Proto Thracians. We know these people were likely darker than other IE groups as that steppe study from earlier this year showed. Actual Thracians were probably a fusion of Catacomb and Tripolye so probably even darker.

I don't think European lactose tolerance originated in Central Asia. But an association with dairy farmers from NW Anatolia who probably had some R1b is likely. I don't think Asian R1b is is related to lactose tolerance like European R1b is. But I would still leave the possibility of an origin of lactose tolerance in Balkan and Caucasus culture as a viable one. Wasn't there some discussion about the ancestral lactose tolerance alleles being traced to the Caucasus?

vettor
01-05-2014, 03:16 AM
Not sure. Modern Balkan people cannot be a 1:1 proxy for ancient groups like Thracians. The most likely explanation is later groups such as R1b and R1a moved across territory inhabited by I2a1b folks (and other hg I groups) who seem to have been dark complexioned and dark haired as per recent studies. I think Jean M's hypothesis is most correct, dairy farmer pastoralists are probably linked to the spread of R1b and the lactose digestion genes which originated in west-central Asia.

did'nt Mr. hammer recently note a R1b centre in modern Bulgaria ( ancient thracian lands), logically then , the thracians had R1b.
If R1b was before Thracian, then some R1b stayed
If R1b arrived when Thracians where there then some R1b stayed.............there is no other compromise to Thracian having ancient R1b.

My guess is that thracians had R1b, I2a* and E as the top 3 Ydna markers

vettor
01-05-2014, 03:18 AM
Could be, i think it's either Tacitus or Caesar that describes the Gauls for example having yellow hair, 'but not only naturally so' because they also died it. So evidently most of these groups did have naturally yellow and red hair in some amount, but as we know that people have been modifying their bodies for a long time, and hair-dying is specifically described, i'd imagine if it was a cultural things among some tribes to dye their hair, as well as having various amounts of naturally occurring light hair - It may match the descriptions of them all being tall, pale and light featured. If the more medium brown shades with light undertones that are common in northern Europe were not that common in much of southern Europe, the natural occurrence of light hair, plus the dominance of light eyes and of pale skin, and then additionally the dyed hair probably makes their descriptions quite accurate, purely as descriptions.

Theory is the gauls dyed their hair with horse urine and let it dry in the sun............it would be a darker shade of blond

rms2
01-05-2014, 02:23 PM
The problem with studying red hair, as Jean M. pointed out and I have pointed out previously in this thread, is that there are a number of genetic variants responsible for it. I suspect different ones may predominate in different groups. For example, the variant responsible for red hair among the Udmurts may not be the same one responsible for red hair among the Welsh and the Irish.

In this post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1824-Skin-color-gene-study&p=25728&viewfull=1#post25728) jeanL pointed out that the Loschbour Mesolithic hunter-gatherer was heterozygous at rs28777 (C/A) and that an A/A there would mean red hair. That's a red hair variant I had not heard of, and it's not in the MC1R gene but in the SLC45A2 gene. At any rate, the Loschbour man was a carrier for that one. Rs28777 is apparently mentioned in this report (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-008-0338-3), but it's one of those pay-to-read types, unfortunately. If rs28777 is responsible for red hair, and if A/A is the homozygous state for red hair at rs28777, then maybe someone can explain the Hapmap CEU population chart here (http://snp-nexus.org/temp/snpnexus_18620/results.html#ceu) and how I am reading it wrongly. It appears to show an rs28777 genotype of A/A as 95% of the total CEU Hapmap population, and that cannot be right, if A/A means red hair. The chart shows the count for Genotype 1 (A/A) as 154. I get the impression, looking at all of the Hapmap charts for rs28777 at snp-nexus, that rs28777 has more to do with skin pigmentation than hair color, but maybe I am missing something. If someone can set me straight on this, I would appreciate it.

vettor
01-05-2014, 06:51 PM
Yea the likelihood of Thracians being light pigmented or red haired is low given their Balkan ancestry. Plus even Proto Thracians ( catacomb culture) were darker pigmented than other IE groups in all likelihood.

Thracians being red-haired is only due to murals and pottery in ancient times of thracians by Greeks and Roman artisans. If thracians are a Pontid race, then black hair with blue, green or grey eyes ( similiar to the "black Irish") would be the majority.
note: European black hair is different from Asian black hair in colour

rms2
01-06-2014, 12:58 PM
The problem with studying red hair, as Jean M. pointed out and I have pointed out previously in this thread, is that there are a number of genetic variants responsible for it. I suspect different ones may predominate in different groups. For example, the variant responsible for red hair among the Udmurts may not be the same one responsible for red hair among the Welsh and the Irish.

In this post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1824-Skin-color-gene-study&p=25728&viewfull=1#post25728) jeanL pointed out that the Loschbour Mesolithic hunter-gatherer was heterozygous at rs28777 (C/A) and that an A/A there would mean red hair. That's a red hair variant I had not heard of, and it's not in the MC1R gene but in the SLC45A2 gene. At any rate, the Loschbour man was a carrier for that one. Rs28777 is apparently mentioned in this report (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-008-0338-3), but it's one of those pay-to-read types, unfortunately. If rs28777 is responsible for red hair, and if A/A is the homozygous state for red hair at rs28777, then maybe someone can explain the Hapmap CEU population chart here (http://snp-nexus.org/temp/snpnexus_18620/results.html#ceu) and how I am reading it wrongly. It appears to show an rs28777 genotype of A/A as 95% of the total CEU Hapmap population, and that cannot be right, if A/A means red hair. The chart shows the count for Genotype 1 (A/A) as 154. I get the impression, looking at all of the Hapmap charts for rs28777 at snp-nexus, that rs28777 has more to do with skin pigmentation than hair color, but maybe I am missing something. If someone can set me straight on this, I would appreciate it.

Apparently rs28777 does not itself impart red hair but is a prerequisite for the actual red hair variants to work and produce red hair:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1824-Skin-color-gene-study&p=25819&viewfull=1#post25819

rhiannon
01-06-2014, 03:16 PM
The autosomal SNP rs1805008 is apparently the same thing as R160W or Arg160Trp, which is one of the "RHC" (Red Hair Color) variants on the MC1R gene. My Family Finder raw data show that I have a "TC" there. The T is the allele for red hair, but it's a recessive trait, so you have to have "TT" to actually have red hair yourself. So, though I carry the trait for red hair, I don't have red hair myself, although I did have a lot of it in my moustache and beard before everything started going gray. When I was younger I was also told that I had "red highlights" in my otherwise dark hair.

My youngest daughter has red hair, as do three of my four grandkids, two boys and a girl, the children of my youngest son.

Rs1805008 is not the only red hair SNP. There are several others.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2013/04/26/sweeney-redhead-gene.cnn.html

http://imageshack.us/a/img546/66/redhairk.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/redhairk.jpg/)

I don't know any of my genetic results because I haven't done any tests yet. I was strawberry blonde as a child and continue to have lots of red in my hair today. Would this possibly mean I am a likely carrier of the T allele?

rms2
01-06-2014, 05:28 PM
I don't know any of my genetic results because I haven't done any tests yet. I was strawberry blonde as a child and continue to have lots of red in my hair today. Would this possibly mean I am a likely carrier of the T allele?

It seems likely to me that you are a carrier of at least one of the red hair variants, but genetic testing is the only way to know for sure.

Jean M
01-06-2014, 06:40 PM
Classical sources attribute red hair to all sorts of groups like Germanics and I am pretty sure Slavics ...

Tacitus says the Germani have "wild blue eyes and reddish hair" (Germania, 4), but the only Classical description of the colouring of the Slavs that I know of refers to them as neither very blonde, nor entirely dark in colouring (Procopius.) You may be thinking of the Budini. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

rms2
01-11-2014, 01:19 AM
Here is an image from my BritainsDNA Chromo2 "myDNA" pages. It shows the percentage of red hair variant carriers showing up thus far in the four nations of the British Isles in testing done by BritainsDNA. Right now, Wales leads the league.


1202

newtoboard
01-11-2014, 01:31 AM
Tacitus says the Germani have "wild blue eyes and reddish hair" (Germania, 4), but the only Classical description of the colouring of the Slavs that I know of refers to them as neither very blonde, nor entirely dark in colouring (Procopius.) You may be thinking of the Budini. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

Is it possible the Budini are Balts rather than Udmurts?

Jean M
01-11-2014, 11:25 AM
Is it possible the Budini are Balts rather than Udmurts?

Not unless we completely ignore everything said about them by Herodotus.

alan
01-11-2014, 11:50 AM
One thing I feel is that primary selective factor for the MC1R mutation was probably not actually for red hair but for ultra fair skin and it appears to me that one copy may achieve this. Certainly that is the result for a lot of people in Ireland and Britain with the result apparently being the sort of skin that is associated with red heads but without the red hair. Certainly if 40% of the population in places like Scotland and Ireland carry it then it despite many centuries of more recent migration then it did its job. Interestingly the proportion of people with freckly skin noted in Hooton in Ireland is very similar to the percentage who carry the marker in Ireland today according to recent studies.

newtoboard
01-11-2014, 01:39 PM
Is it possible the Budini are Balts rather than Udmurts?

It says they likely lived in Ukraine.

rms2
01-11-2014, 01:51 PM
Here is another image from my BritainsDNA "myDNA" pages showing my profile for the red hair variants, with the one I carry, Arg160Tryp, in red.

1205

Here is what it says in the explanation that accompanies that image:



You are a Carrier of a Red-Head variant

You inherit one copy of chromosome 16 from your mother and one from your father. At one end of chromosome 16, lies the Melanocortin 1 Receptor (MC1R) gene, which encodes the receptor protein for melanocyte-stimulating hormone (MSH).

MC1R is a key regulator of skin and hair colour and works by controlling which type of melanin is being produced by melanocytes - specialised cells that produce melanin. There are two types of melanin: eumelanin and phaeomelanin. If your cells produce mostly eumelanin, you will have dark hair and dark skin, whereas if your cells produce mostly phaeomelanin, you will have red or strawberry blond hair, freckles and light-coloured skin.

The diagram to the right shows your copies of MC1R and what amino-acid you have for each of the 36 red-head variants tested. The numbers in the middle show the position of the amino acids. On the right hand side is a list of the amino acids at these positions in the versions of the protein that cause eumelanin production.

You have the amino acid Tryptophan at position 160. This red-head variant is known as Arg160Trp. This is considered a strong variant. It is highly unlikely you have red or strawberry blond hair, but you may pass the trait onto your children.

Genetic variants that cause red hair are recessive, so for there to be a red haired child, both parents must carry at least one copy of a red-head variant to pass on. This is because both copies of the gene must be affected in order to decrease the amount of black pigment produced and thus give red hair.

rms2
01-11-2014, 01:59 PM
One thing I feel is that primary selective factor for the MC1R mutation was probably not actually for red hair but for ultra fair skin and it appears to me that one copy may achieve this. Certainly that is the result for a lot of people in Ireland and Britain with the result apparently being the sort of skin that is associated with red heads but without the red hair. Certainly if 40% of the population in places like Scotland and Ireland carry it then it despite many centuries of more recent migration then it did its job. Interestingly the proportion of people with freckly skin noted in Hooton in Ireland is very similar to the percentage who carry the marker in Ireland today according to recent studies.

I mentioned this before, but along the lines of what you are saying above, I have always had a ruddy complexion, and when I was a kid I had freckles across the bridge of my nose and on my cheeks (I still have them on my shoulders). As a consequence of my reddish complexion, I was constantly teased about blushing when I was not blushing, which would only embarrass me and cause me to really blush. My youngest brother, Jim, has the same complexion, but the brother between us, Daniel, does not. Before my beard and moustache started going white, I had lots of red hair in them; in fact, my moustache showed up as red (I posted a photo of myself at 18 earlier in this thread that shows this).

So, apparently having even one copy of a red hair variant has some impact, unless there are other factors at work about which I do not yet know.

rms2
01-11-2014, 02:07 PM
Sorry for droning on in a third post in a row, but according to BritainsDNA, the three most common red hair variants (at least in the British Isles) are Arg151Cys, Arg160Trp and Asp294His. Here is what they say about the other variants:



There are various other red-head variants, but all are rare with an allele frequency below 2%.


I would really like to know which variants prevail in what areas, both in the Isles and on the Continent.

SNPedia says the following about Arg160Tryp:



rs1805008, known as Arg160Trp or R160W, is one of several SNPs in the MC1R gene associated with red hair color (redheads), in this case in an Irish population [PMID 9665397] although this has also been reported in Icelandic and Dutch populations [PMID 18488028].


http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1805008

Here's part of what SNPedia says about Arg151Cys:



The risk allele has also been reported in several studies to be associated with increased risk for melanoma. For example, an odds ratio of 2.94 (CI: 1.04-8.31) has been reported for an Italian population [PMID 16567973], and similarly an odds ratio of 2.9 has been reported for a Polish population [PMID 16988943].


http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1805007

I don't see any mention of geographic locations or ethnic groups associated with Asp294His.

rms2
01-11-2014, 02:46 PM
This study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2810292/), from 2009, found nearly four times as many redheads in its Scottish sample of 133 as in its Danish sample of 382. There were 20 Scottish redheads, 15% of the total Scottish sample population, versus 17 Danish redheads, or just 4% of the total Danish sample population. See tables 1 and 2.

Jean M
01-11-2014, 03:09 PM
It says they likely lived in Ukraine.

We don't know exactly where they lived, but the best sense than can be made of the account of Herodotus is that he thought they lived somewhere further east or north than the Sarmatians, whom he placed east of the Don. He was probably repeating what someone told him, rather than going off exploring himself. Other accounts mention reindeer in the lands of the Budini, so I think we need to look northward. They certainly lived in solid forest. Herodotus repeats that.

MitchellSince1893
01-12-2014, 08:15 PM
I'm CT for rs1805008 and am not homozygous for any of the red head SNPs so I guess I'm not a "true" red head.

However, I was born with Auburn hair and had it up to age 16. In my 10th grade school picture I had auburn hair but in the 11th grade picture it was brown.

I was taking medication for acne at the time and have read it has been known to cause hair color changes.

When I grow a beard it has some red in it.

My profile picture shows me with auburn hair at age 5. http://www.anthrogenica.com/image.php?u=607&dateline=1389553924&type=profile

MitchellSince1893
01-12-2014, 09:32 PM
Thought it was interesting to see the previous posted Red Hair map, compared to my EEF (Red band), WHG (Green band), and ANE (Blue band), values (see link below)


http://imageshack.us/a/img546/66/redhairk.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/redhairk.jpg/)

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/560768591073749614/

Sorry for the link vice actual image, but for some reason I'm currently unable to upload images to this site, either from a url or via my computer.

As you can see from the link, my EEG, WHG, and ANE values overlap over Ireland, Scotland, Orkneys, Southern, Norway and Denmark.

rms2
01-12-2014, 10:43 PM
That is interesting. My closest matches on the EEF/WHG/ANE thing are Orkney and Ukraine.

Like me, you are a carrier of the red hair variant Arg160Tryp.

Regarding that photo of you at 5: I would call that red hair, not auburn. Auburn is darker, it seems to me.

MitchellSince1893
01-13-2014, 01:08 AM
My mom always called me auburn so I just assumed it was the same thing as a red head.

alan
01-13-2014, 02:43 AM
Judging by modern distribution, it almost looks like the map of areas farmers hadnt reached in nort-west Europe until c. 4000BC. That makes me think it is pre-farming in northern Europe. It is located mostly in the area where the western derived final upper palaeolithic and Mesolithic groups expanded into northern Europe - those of distant Magdallenian ancestry.

It doesnt seem likely to relate to ANE as both the early and later Mesolithic cultures of the isles had mainly arrived somewhere in the isles already by 8300BC, neither is culturally related to eastern derived Late Upper Palaeolithic or Mesolithic groups and indeed the latter arrived too late on the fringes of north-west Europe and apparently didnt reach the isles at this time- doggerland was shrinking and Britain was an island by c. 6500BC.

rms2
01-13-2014, 01:04 PM
I don't know. No red hair variants were found in the Stuttgart farmer female or in the Loschbour Mesolithic WHG male, but those are only two individuals. Did they get hair color info from the WHGs from Motala, Sweden? I don't remember. I don't think MA-1 had any red hair variants either (it would have been news if he had).

It definitely does not seem to be associated with EEF, but the places where it is most frequent have pretty substantial amounts of both WHG and ANE. Hard to say which is responsible.

MitchellSince1893
03-14-2014, 03:10 AM
I'm CT for rs1805008 and am not homozygous for any of the red head SNPs so I guess I'm not a "true" red head.

I've read on another site that
having one or more heterozygous mutations has also been shown to have an effect on skin and hair color. The more variant alleles you have, the stronger the effect appears to be
http://tinyurl.com/luntvou I searched for a more definitive source but haven't found it yet.

However, if true the fact that I have CT for both rs1805007 and rs1805008 would explain why I am fair skinned and had red hair as a child.

Any other red heads out there that are heterozygous rather than homozygous for the red hair genes (forgive me if this info was already covered)

ADW_1981
03-25-2014, 02:01 AM
The autosomal SNP rs1805008 is apparently the same thing as R160W or Arg160Trp, which is one of the "RHC" (Red Hair Color) variants on the MC1R gene. My Family Finder raw data show that I have a "TC" there. The T is the allele for red hair, but it's a recessive trait, so you have to have "TT" to actually have red hair yourself. So, though I carry the trait for red hair, I don't have red hair myself, although I did have a lot of it in my moustache and beard before everything started going gray. When I was younger I was also told that I had "red highlights" in my otherwise dark hair.

My youngest daughter has red hair, as do three of my four grandkids, two boys and a girl, the children of my youngest son.

Rs1805008 is not the only red hair SNP. There are several others.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2013/04/26/sweeney-redhead-gene.cnn.html

http://imageshack.us/a/img546/66/redhairk.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/redhairk.jpg/)

rs1805008 CT
rs1805007 CT

No result for rs1805009 which seems to be the variant high in Dutch populations. My mother gave me rs1805008, the Irish version and my father gave me rs1805007. My mother is a natural blonde and she also carries rs1805005 CT but I did not inherit a copy of this mutation from her.

alan
04-25-2014, 03:16 PM
The red hair variant that you need two copies of to have red hair is often quoted as being carried - often one copy only - by around 40-odd percent in Scotland and Ireland. Its really the gene rather than the red hair in itself which is telling because it is just incredibly common in the Celtic fringe. I hate when you see on the internet people saying red hair came with the vikings because I dont think it is feasible to see this as arriving little over 1000 years ago and yet somehow getting into nearly half the population. I suspect its very early - not sure how early - and that its main selective function was ultra fair skin - something that perhaps only requires one copy. It is interesting that the Harvard study/Hooton gives a figure for freckly fair skin in Ireland at a very similar percentage to that found for the red hair genetic marker in recent studies.

rms2
04-25-2014, 05:55 PM
The red hair variant that you need two copies of to have red hair is often quoted as being carried - often one copy only - by around 40-odd percent in Scotland and Ireland. Its really the gene rather than the red hair in itself which is telling because it is just incredibly common in the Celtic fringe. I hate when you see on the internet people saying red hair came with the vikings because I dont think it is feasible to see this as arriving little over 1000 years ago and yet somehow getting into nearly half the population. I suspect its very early - not sure how early - and that its main selective function was ultra fair skin - something that perhaps only requires one copy. It is interesting that the Harvard study/Hooton gives a figure for freckly fair skin in Ireland at a very similar percentage to that found for the red hair genetic marker in recent studies.

I agree about the whole Viking thing. I get the impression that people have heard of "Eric the Red" and somehow have gotten the impression that the Vikings were responsible for spreading red hair around. Not likely.

rms2
04-26-2014, 12:12 AM
I want to post a fairly current photo of my youngest daughter. It was taken this past autumn. You'll see why it's relevant.

1776

I know I carry one of the red hair variants because I have been tested for it. Apparently my wife carries one, too, but she has not been tested. Neither my wife nor I has red hair.

The bad thing about that photo is that you can't really see my daughter's eyes very well. They're blue.

DMXX
04-26-2014, 12:26 AM
I want to post a fairly current photo of my youngest daughter. It was taken this past autumn. You'll see why it's relevant.

...

I know I carry one of the red hair variants because I have been tested for it. Apparently my wife carries one, too, but she has not been tested. Neither my wife nor I has red hair.

The bad thing about that photo is that you can't really see my daughter's eyes very well. They're blue.

As someone who's a carrier of MC1R mutations, have you noticed in your immediate family a correlation between very blue eyes and red hair? e.g., those with any signs of reddish hair colouring also having light eyes.

From my reading, studies concerning MC1R are oriented towards skin and hair pigmentation, but at least one has explicitly mentioned eye colour. More about this is outlined in this post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1057-DMXX-s-Eye-Colour-Project-(v-2)&p=36184&viewfull=1#post36184).

As an aside, the next time I grow my beard out, I'll post a picture. Us non-MC1R's can sprout out a few coppers too, you know. :P

rms2
04-26-2014, 12:36 AM
As someone who's a carrier of MC1R mutations, have you noticed in your immediate family a correlation between very blue eyes and red hair? e.g., those with any signs of reddish hair colouring also having light eyes.

From my reading, studies concerning MC1R are oriented towards skin and hair pigmentation, but at least one has explicitly mentioned eye colour. More about this is outlined in this post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1057-DMXX-s-Eye-Colour-Project-(v-2)&p=36184&viewfull=1#post36184).

As an aside, the next time I grow my beard out, I'll post a picture. Us non-MC1R's can sprout out a few coppers too, you know. :p

Almost all of us in my family have light blue eyes. The exception is my dad, whose eyes are brown.

Naturally, the redheads - my youngest daughter and three of my grandchildren (two boys and a girl) - have light blue eyes, as well.

I look forward to seeing your beard photo. I used to have a lot of red in my moustache and beard, too, but now my facial hair has gone almost all white.

ADW_1981
04-26-2014, 01:11 AM
The two red heads in my family have green eyes, rather than blue - myself included. I carry a copy of at least 2 MC1R variants which are commonly tested.

rms2
04-26-2014, 02:01 AM
The red hair variant that you need two copies of to have red hair is often quoted as being carried - often one copy only - by around 40-odd percent in Scotland and Ireland. Its really the gene rather than the red hair in itself which is telling because it is just incredibly common in the Celtic fringe. I hate when you see on the internet people saying red hair came with the vikings because I dont think it is feasible to see this as arriving little over 1000 years ago and yet somehow getting into nearly half the population. I suspect its very early - not sure how early - and that its main selective function was ultra fair skin - something that perhaps only requires one copy. It is interesting that the Harvard study/Hooton gives a figure for freckly fair skin in Ireland at a very similar percentage to that found for the red hair genetic marker in recent studies.

I want to post another shot of that BritainsDNA Red Hair Carriers map.

1777

alan
04-26-2014, 11:55 AM
I tend to agree that Red hair almost always goes with ultra light skin in the isles. Also, although I have seen the occasional darker eyed redhead its overwhelmingly light eyes that seem to go with it. The hair and eyes thing may however not be directly genetically linked - its just that red hair is most common in places where light eyes are very predominant too.

I think the dominant strain among the ancient Britons and Irish, the predominant one IMO, was a population with very fair skin, light eyes and brown or red hair. Not much true adult blond IMO although a minority of golden dark blond, sandy and mousey. I think its been proven in studies of unexposed skin that the groups like the Irish have fairer skins than Germanics or Slavs and the Scots and many British are similar. To me the Germanics from the Rhine to Scandinavia had a lot more light hair (although much less red) but their skin wasnt as fair. Extremely high proportion of light eyes seem to be a common trait to both the Celtic fringe element - especially Ireland and northern Scotland - and the Germanic, Slavic and Baltic peoples of the north European plane and Scandinavia. IMO and from what I have seen on colouring maps, the light eyed proportion drops off from the north coasts of Europe as you head inland - including places like inland Germany.

IMO English people are a mix of the Celtic fringe type strain and a generally significantly lesser element from east of the Rhine. I would characterise/stereotype the two elements as follows

1. PreGermanic light British -mid to brown haired dominant but carrying a lot of red hair genes and an elevated amount of redheads, predominantly light eyed, ultra fair skin with a lot of freckly ruddy sorts, medium height, more rugged features. This is commonest in Ireland and Scotland but also in the west of Britain in general and is found throughout the isles to some degree. Elements of this actually IMO probably are seen as typical isles although its purest in the fringes

2. A darker pre-Germanic pseudo-Med element. Probably seen on the eye colour maps which show more dark eyes in southern England and Wales than to the north or in Ireland. I would also say there is a bigger element with less fair skin too. This must surely come from an element which made more of an impact in the southern half of England and Wales than further north. I dont really know the origin of this but a number of factors could be at play - a deeper impact of Neolithic farmers, a generally more easy to access location to the continent throughout history and prehistory, the Roman empire etc. However, even in those areas I think its wrong to exaggerate - light eyes are still more common than dark in SW England and Wales. Wales also has a lot of red.

3. Germanic element-mousey to fair haired but also significant flat brown haired element fewer redheads or really dark hair, also predominantly light eyed, fair but tanable skin.

I am not sure if its worth commenting on height and build because it may tell us little about genetics and more about diet etc. For example around 1800 the Irish and Scots were really tall relative to the English and rest of Europe due to the potatoes, milk etc diet they had compared to the bread based diet that dominated in England. However, this changed with the potato famines and there has been a long history of relative poverty in the Celtic fringe. So, its really hard to make any useful observations about height and build. I can see this even in my own family where in generations the male height has gone from about 5ft 4 to 5ft 7 to 5ft 11 to 6ft 2 in the span of 4 generations born from the 1880s to the 1960s - a pretty steady gain of 3 or 4 inches per generation which also corresponds with a steady rise out of poverty. Built has changed too - slowly moving from more stocky to more lanky. So, I think height is not a good indicator of genetics. In Europe we were way behind the US in terms of this height gain with better conditions and although Europe has now eclipsed the US for height its only happened in the last decade or two.

alan
04-26-2014, 12:00 PM
Yes there is little doubt that red hair is a very good indicator of pre-Germanic isles roots. Probably the best one after the L21-U106 indicator. I dont think its any coincidence that the red hair gene carriers map looks rather like the L21 maps. Obviously they are not literally linked genes but its clear they both have a might strong correlation to the amount of pre-Germanic survival. I am not a believer in absolutes but that is one of the strongest correlations. The moderate drop off in NW Scotland, which some may find unexpected, has to be seen in light of the significant Norse imput in that area where many of the historic clans have strong norse roots/elements.


I want to post another shot of that BritainsDNA Red Hair Carriers map.

1777

Gray Fox
04-26-2014, 12:17 PM
Interesting points, Alan. My own y-line has had a surprisingly good record of physical description going back to pre-revolution times. Light blue eyes and sandy blond hair with a ruddy complexion being the most common recording. Even to this day this is common for my family.

rms2
04-26-2014, 12:55 PM
I tend to agree that Red hair almost always goes with ultra light skin in the isles. Also, although I have seen the occasional darker eyed redhead its overwhelmingly light eyes that seem to go with it. The hair and eyes thing may however not be directly genetically linked - its just that red hair is most common in places where light eyes are very predominant too.

I think the dominant strain among the ancient Britons and Irish, the predominant one IMO, was a population with very fair skin, light eyes and brown or red hair. Not much true adult blond IMO although a minority of golden dark blond, sandy and mousey. I think its been proven in studies of unexposed skin that the groups like the Irish have fairer skins than Germanics or Slavs and the Scots and many British are similar. To me the Germanics from the Rhine to Scandinavia had a lot more light hair (although much less red) but their skin wasnt as fair. Extremely high proportion of light eyes seem to be a common trait to both the Celtic fringe element - especially Ireland and northern Scotland - and the Germanic, Slavic and Baltic peoples of the north European plane and Scandinavia. IMO and from what I have seen on colouring maps, the light eyed proportion drops off from the north coasts of Europe as you head inland - including places like inland Germany.

IMO English people are a mix of the Celtic fringe type strain and a generally significantly lesser element from east of the Rhine. I would characterise/stereotype the two elements as follows

1. PreGermanic light British -mid to brown haired dominant but carrying a lot of red hair genes and an elevated amount of redheads, predominantly light eyed, ultra fair skin with a lot of freckly ruddy sorts, medium height, more rugged features. This is commonest in Ireland and Scotland but also in the west of Britain in general and is found throughout the isles to some degree. Elements of this actually IMO probably are seen as typical isles although its purest in the fringes

2. A darker pre-Germanic pseudo-Med element. Probably seen on the eye colour maps which show more dark eyes in southern England and Wales than to the north or in Ireland. I would also say there is a bigger element with less fair skin too. This must surely come from an element which made more of an impact in the southern half of England and Wales than further north. I dont really know the origin of this but a number of factors could be at play - a deeper impact of Neolithic farmers, a generally more easy to access location to the continent throughout history and prehistory, the Roman empire etc. However, even in those areas I think its wrong to exaggerate - light eyes are still more common than dark in SW England and Wales. Wales also has a lot of red.

3. Germanic element-mousey to fair haired but also significant flat brown haired element fewer redheads or really dark hair, also predominantly light eyed, fair but tanable skin.

I am not sure if its worth commenting on height and build because it may tell us little about genetics and more about diet etc. For example around 1800 the Irish and Scots were really tall relative to the English and rest of Europe due to the potatoes, milk etc diet they had compared to the bread based diet that dominated in England. However, this changed with the potato famines and there has been a long history of relative poverty in the Celtic fringe. So, its really hard to make any useful observations about height and build. I can see this even in my own family where in generations the male height has gone from about 5ft 4 to 5ft 7 to 5ft 11 to 6ft 2 in the span of 4 generations born from the 1880s to the 1960s - a pretty steady gain of 3 or 4 inches per generation which also corresponds with a steady rise out of poverty. Built has changed too - slowly moving from more stocky to more lanky. So, I think height is not a good indicator of genetics. In Europe we were way behind the US in terms of this height gain with better conditions and although Europe has now eclipsed the US for height its only happened in the last decade or two.

I have noticed that "tanability" of which you speak among Germans and Scandinavians, which I always found odd but attractive. I have a very ruddy complexion and sunburn pretty easily.

On the height issue, I think the overall U.S. average has declined due to an influx of really short people from Latin America and Asia. So, comparing the U.S. average to a northern European average is a little like comparing apples to oranges. You would get a better notion of height by comparing European-Americans to Europeans, etc. I have been to Europe, and I don't see any big differences between the height of white people there and in the United States. I'm fairly tall, and I am still taller than most folks in Europe, although not as tall as some, and that's the way it is here, too.

alan
04-26-2014, 01:25 PM
Yes the Scandinavians and north Germanics, and some British (not that many) can often go a really beautiful light golden colour in the sun which when combined with light hair kind of makes them look like eagles lol. I think usually isles people when on holiday in the sun do a great shade of beetroot. Got to be honest we got the short straw compared to the Scandies. The Germans nickname for us islanders is 'island monkeys'. :0(


I have noticed that "tanability" of which you speak among Germans and Scandinavians, which I always found odd but attractive. I have a very ruddy complexion and sunburn pretty easily.

On the height issue, I think the overall U.S. average has declined due to an influx of really short people from Latin America and Asia. So, comparing the U.S. average to a northern European average is a little like comparing apples to oranges. You would get a better notion of height by comparing European-Americans to Europeans, etc. I have been to Europe, and I don't see any big differences between the height of white people there and in the United States. I'm fairly tall, and I am still taller than most folks in Europe, although not as tall as some, and that's the way it is here, too.

alan
04-26-2014, 01:30 PM
The thing is European men were very small back around WWI and Americans towered over them - I think they were about 4 or 5 inches taller on average. America had a much better fed population back then compared to Europe. That gap slowly closed mainly because a lot of men were absolutely tiny 5ft 4 sort of guys then. I think the average was about 5ft 8 in my fathers generation and I think about 5ft 9 or 10 today among young men which is similar to the US. That is pretty well local change rather than influx which if anything would have dragged down.


I have noticed that "tanability" of which you speak among Germans and Scandinavians, which I always found odd but attractive. I have a very ruddy complexion and sunburn pretty easily.

On the height issue, I think the overall U.S. average has declined due to an influx of really short people from Latin America and Asia. So, comparing the U.S. average to a northern European average is a little like comparing apples to oranges. You would get a better notion of height by comparing European-Americans to Europeans, etc. I have been to Europe, and I don't see any big differences between the height of white people there and in the United States. I'm fairly tall, and I am still taller than most folks in Europe, although not as tall as some, and that's the way it is here, too.

rms2
04-26-2014, 02:25 PM
Yes the Scandinavians and north Germanics, and some British (not that many) can often go a really beautiful light golden colour in the sun which when combined with light hair kind of makes them look like eagles lol. I think usually isles people when on holiday in the sun do a great shade of beetroot. Got to be honest we got the short straw compared to the Scandies. The Germans nickname for us islanders is 'island monkeys'. :0(

Yeah, I have been that shade of beetroot far too often for my own good. When I was a kid I always believed the summer did not begin until I got sunburned so badly I looked like a boiled lobster.

Back on the height thing: here in the U.S. we have a large large number of fairly recent Latin American and East Asian immigrants who - and I mean no insult, this is merely an observation - are about the size of Hobbits. I tower over them.

I have noticed, though, that there are Latino and East Asian Americans who are reasonably tall but whose immigrant grandparents are Hobbit sized like the recent immigrants. So, apparently diet and perhaps other environmental factors do have a great impact on height.

alan
04-26-2014, 04:59 PM
Yeah I have been surprised how tall young chinese people are when I have seen sports teams visiting. I am not sure if they are entirely representative though - I have never been in China. Certainly the older Chinese we see running the food businesses are small. I have been in Japan and the older people are tiny. The younger guys are a lot bigger - sort of mediumish height I would say but have very slight frames. One other group of people I was surprised at their height was Egyptians. A lot of them seen pretty well a good European type height. Given that its not the richest country that shows they have a lot of latent potential to be a tall populations.

I have read that it can take a few generations of good feeding before the height starts to level off after a previous long period of poverty. I know in Britain that back a couple of generations ago the wealthy were already tall and there was a massive average height difference of about 5 inches between the wealthy and poor. That has leveled off a fair bit because food became very cheap.

Strangely although the UK had rationing during WWII but the poorest actually became healthier. We should be forever grateful to all the military and merchant seamen and the many from America who gave their lives in the Atlantic against the German U-boats so we wouldnt starve. 30,000 British and 10000 US, over 1000 Canadian merchant seamen and apparently it mechant seaman had the highest death rate of any profession in WWII on the allied side. I dont think the losses of merchant seamen is recognised enough. I have talked to some old men who tell me they survived being sunk several times including one old guy who was a radio operator who had dissentry when he was sunk and some how survived! Mind you the German U-Boatmen who did the damage was like a death sentence of a job- 85% of them died.


Yeah, I have been that shade of beetroot far too often for my own good. When I was a kid I always believed the summer did not begin until I got sunburned so badly I looked like a boiled lobster.

Back on the height thing: here in the U.S. we have a large large number of fairly recent Latin American and East Asian immigrants who - and I mean no insult, this is merely an observation - are about the size of Hobbits. I tower over them.

I have noticed, though, that there are Latino and East Asian Americans who are reasonably tall but whose immigrant grandparents are Hobbit sized like the recent immigrants. So, apparently diet and perhaps other environmental factors do have a great impact on height.

saxonlander
10-16-2014, 05:02 PM
Yes the British Isles indigenous populations have the highest frequency of red hair, fair skin, freckles in the world. Especially Ireland, Scotland, Wales, northern England.

Reith
11-14-2014, 02:07 PM
I am of mostly Germanic descent, but do have some Celtic.

I tan very well, have green eyes (other than my maternal grandfather, everyone else in my family has blue, both sides) and dark blonde hair. When I was younger it was almost platinum blonde.

Even all the men in my family for WWI and WWII had blonde/blue on their draft cards.

Concerning this thread though; I do have some red hairs in my beard and one of my paternal cousins has "strawberry blonde" hair. So my genes do have some red in there..

rms2
11-27-2014, 03:35 PM
I'm not sure whether I posted this here before or not, but here is a link to Maciamo Hay's theories about red hair, which for Western Europe he links to R1b and the Celts:

The genetic causes, ethnic origins and history of red hair (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml).

ADW_1981
11-27-2014, 04:15 PM
Anyone know if any ancient aDNA turned up positive, even carrying a single copy of either red or blonde hair mutations?

rms2
11-27-2014, 04:24 PM
Anyone know if any ancient aDNA turned up positive, even carrying a single copy of either red or blonde hair mutations?

I checked the Hinxton 4, the Iron Age Celt, for Arg160Tryp (rs1805008 T), but he didn't have a result for it, either positive or negative. I didn't check him for any other red hair variants.

I don't know about all the rest, but it would be interesting to find out.

rms2
12-03-2014, 01:18 PM
Over on the thread about Richard III's dna test results (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141202/ncomms6631/full/ncomms6631.html), Krefter mentioned the fact that Richard III was a carrier of the red hair variant rs1805007, known as Arg151Cys or R151C (you can find it in the report's supplementary info). T there is the risk allele, and Richard III had a CT at Arg151Cys. Since red hair is a recessive trait, you need TT to actually have red hair.

I am a carrier of the red hair variant Arg160Tryp (rs1805008). The risk allele there is also T. One of my dad's older sisters, my Aunt Lois, had red hair, and my dad carries the same variant I have, so he may have passed it on to me.

Finn
11-05-2019, 06:44 PM
Maciamo of Eupedia stated this, is this a right analysis of the 'origin' or red hair?


The red-haired Proto-Indo-Europeans split in three branches (Proto-Italic, Proto-Celtic and Proto-Germanic ) during the progressive expansion of the successive Bronze-age Unetice, Tumulus and Urnfield cultures from Central Europe. The Proto-Germanic branch, originating as the R1b-U106 subclade, is thought to have migrated from present-day Austria to the Low Countries and north-western Germany. They would continue their expansion (probably from 1200 BCE) to Denmark, southern Sweden and southern Norway, where, after blending with the local I1 and R1a people, the ancient Germanic culture emerged.

Nowadays, the frequency of red hair among Germanic people is highest in the Netherlands, Belgium, north-western Germany and Jutland, i.e. where the percentage of R1b is the highest, and presumably the first region to be settled by R1b, before blending with the blond-haired R1a and I1 people from Scandinavia and re-expanding south to Germany during the Iron Age, with a considerably lower percentage of R1b and red-hair alleles. Red-haired is therefore most associated with the continental West Germanic peoples, and least with Scandinavians and Germanic tribes that originated in Sweden, like the Goths and the Vandals. This also explains why the Anglo-Saxon settlements on southern England have a higher frequency of redheads than the Scandinavian settlements of northeast England.

The Italic branch crossed the Alps around 1300 BCE and settled across most of the peninsula, but especially in Central Italy (Umbrians, Latins, Oscans). They probably belonged predominantly to the R1b-U152 subclade. It is likely that the original Italics had just as much red hair as the Celts and Germans, but lost them progressively as they intermarried with their dark-haired neighbours, like the Etruscans. The subsequent Gaulish Celtic settlements in northern Italy increased the rufosity in areas that had priorly been non-Indo-European (Ligurian, Etruscan, Rhaetic) and therefore dark-haired. Nowadays red hair is about as common in northern and in central Italy.

The Celtic branch is the largest and most complex. The area that was Celtic-speaking in Classical times encompassed regions belonging to several distinct subclades of R1b-S116 (the Proto-Italo-Celtic haplogroup). The earliest migration of R1b to Western Europe must have happened with the diffusion of the Bronze Age to France, Belgium, Britain and Ireland around 2100 BCE - a migration best associated with the R1b-L21 subclade. A second migration took place around 1800 BCE to Southwest France and Iberia, and is associated with R1b-DF27. These two branches are usually considered Celtic, but because of their early separation, they are likely to be more different from each other than were the later Italic and continental Celtic branches (both R1b-U152). The Northwest Celtic branch could have been ancestral to Goidelic languages (Gaelic), and the south-western one to Celtiberian. Both belong to the Q-Celtic group, as opposed to the P-Celtic group, to which Gaulish and Brythonic belong and which is associated with the expansion of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures and R1b-U152 (the same subclade as the Italic branch). Nowadays, red hair is found in all three Celtic branches, although it is most common in the R1b-L21 branch. The reason is simply that it is the northernmost branch (red hair being more useful at higher latitudes) and that the Celtic populations of Britain and Ireland have retained the purest Proto-Celtic ancestry (extremely high percentage of R1b).

Red hair was also found among the tartan-wearing Chärchän man, one of the Tarim mummies dating from 1000 BCE, who according to the author were an offshoot of Central European Celts responsible for the presence of R1b among modern Uyghurs. The earlier, non-tartan-wearing Tarim mummies from 2000 BCE, which were DNA tested and identified as members of haplogroup R1a, did not have red hair, just like modern R1a-dominant populations.

Finn
02-16-2020, 11:40 AM
I'm not sure whether I posted this here before or not, but here is a link to Maciamo Hay's theories about red hair, which for Western Europe he links to R1b and the Celts:

The genetic causes, ethnic origins and history of red hair (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml).

When I read Maciamo I would go for Arg160Tryp as a Bell Beaker trait. In NW Europe it's most frequent in the old BB hotspots!


Nowadays, red hair is found in all three Celtic branches, although it is most common in the R1b-L21 branch.



Nowadays, the frequency of red hair among Germanic people is highest in the Netherlands, Belgium, north-western Germany and Jutland, i.e. where the percentage of R1b is the highest, and presumably the first region to be settled by R1b,

NW Germany/North Dutch area was an important departure point of the BB that went to the Isles.

Mytrueancestry is in many aspects too much (eager to connect you with illuster persons from the past for example), but they have an interesting feature the 'haplogroup analysis' it gives information about the Y-DNA and m-DNA of your ancestry.

This is my picture:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/7awd5yi1gp.26.07.png

The BB connection and undertone is very prominent present.....so the red hair snp Arg160Tryp can be regarded as a BB 'stigma'?

All no prove but I guess the we can assume a Bell Beaker connection!

23abc
02-17-2020, 01:00 AM
I'm a Greek islander and have/had red hair, but 23andme says I am unlikely to have it.

https://i.imgur.com/WpbaE4o.png

I have an uncle with red hair and a nephew with red hair, so I know it runs in the family... how can I work out which gene marker is responsible when it's not one of the common ones that a site like 23andme tests?

Ayetooey
02-17-2020, 01:20 AM
I'm a Greek islander and have/had red hair, but 23andme says I am unlikely to have it.

https://i.imgur.com/WpbaE4o.png

I have an uncle with red hair and a nephew with red hair, so I know it runs in the family... how can I work out which gene marker is responsible when it's not one of the common ones that a site like 23andme tests?

I don't know if it's the same gene exactly, but there's a redhair gene on mydnaportal that you can get tested for if you upload your data there. Also in the FTDNA family finder data there is/was a bunch of red hair/light haired snps, and using a excel program you can look through and see if you test positive for these individual snps. I did this before to check (negative for all red hair snps), though this was with the old data mind you, don't know if the new GSA chip has this.

rms2
02-17-2020, 02:49 AM
I'm a Greek islander and have/had red hair, but 23andme says I am unlikely to have it.

https://i.imgur.com/WpbaE4o.png

I have an uncle with red hair and a nephew with red hair, so I know it runs in the family... how can I work out which gene marker is responsible when it's not one of the common ones that a site like 23andme tests?

You probably carry just one copy of a red hair variant, which makes you a carrier but unlikely to be a redhead. Sometimes, however, a person with just one copy has red hair anyway.

Take a look at the chart of red hair variants below. Go to your 23andMe account. Click on the little down arrow by your name in the upper right, then on Browse Raw Data. Enter the rs number (RefSNP) of each of the red hair variants in the search bar one at a time and see if you have the risk allele for any of them.

36405

Here's what my result for rs1805008 (Arg160Trp) looks like using the process described above:

36406

T is the risk allele. I have it, so I am a carrier.

23abc
02-17-2020, 03:17 AM
You probably carry just one copy of a red hair variant, which makes you a carrier but unlikely to be a redhead. Sometimes, however, a person with just one copy has red hair anyway.

3 of those SNPs could not be found using the search, but among those searchable I found that I was a carrier of one of them:

https://i.imgur.com/GpdNpHg.png

I'm assuming that's what caused my red hair?

rms2
02-17-2020, 03:32 AM
3 of those SNPs could not be found using the search, but among those searchable I found that I was a carrier of one of them:

https://i.imgur.com/GpdNpHg.png

I'm assuming that's what caused my red hair?

That's probably it. For sure you're a carrier of that one.

rms2
02-17-2020, 04:09 AM
3 of those SNPs could not be found using the search, but among those searchable I found that I was a carrier of one of them:

https://i.imgur.com/GpdNpHg.png

I'm assuming that's what caused my red hair?

BTW, the variant you carry (Ile155Thr) was also carried by one of the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (I0013) from Motala, Sweden, from Lazaridis et al, 2013. The date range on that one was 5898-5531 BC. He belonged to y haplogroup I2a1b and mtDNA haplogroup U5a1.

So it's been in Europe awhile.

chocoholic
02-21-2020, 11:10 PM
I haven’t taken 23andme but I did upload to yourdnaportal and they said I wasn’t a carrier for genes that cause red hair. A bit of a disappointment since my Scots-Irish grandma is a redhead and she was praying for me to have red hair. :P

Ayetooey
02-23-2020, 03:11 AM
My British mother tests negative for every red hair SNP that I've checked. We have 0 red-haired people in our family, not even any distant cousins. A lot of blondes, however. I would assume East Anglia has the lowest red hair rates in the whole of the British isles.

Adamm
02-23-2020, 09:05 PM
I also test negative for all SNPs (I do have the SNPs but not the risk allele), my great grandmother was redhead (her whole life) and I have more red heads in my family and I was red head till my 3rd or 4th year, which makes me wonder that it was not actually red hair but more a brown hair variant which resembles red hair.

StillWater
02-23-2020, 09:11 PM
I also test negative for all SNPs (I do have the SNPs but not the risk allele), my great grandmother was redhead (her whole life) and I have more red heads in my family and I was red head till my 3rd or 4th year, which makes me wonder that it was not actually red hair but more a brown hair variant which resembles red hair.

For the SNPs I have, I tested negative for, with the exception of one of the minor ones, where I have both positive and negative alleles. I have a ginger tint to my beard when it gets long and my sibling was sometimes mistaken as ginger around the same age you speak of. I think there may have been another red hair mutation around the Middle East, as is seen in Samaritans.

Adamm
02-23-2020, 09:32 PM
For the SNPs I have, I tested negative for, with the exception of one of the minor ones, where I have both positive and negative alleles. I have a ginger tint to my beard when it gets long and my sibling was sometimes mistaken as ginger around the same age you speak of. I think there may have been another red hair mutation around the Middle East, as is seen in Samaritans.

Is it possible there are more SNPs which are responsible for red hair but we don't know about yet?

FionnSneachta
02-24-2020, 07:25 PM
I'm negative for Rs1805008. My dad is negative for Rs1805008 and two other SNPs. However, his brother has red hair and his dad had red hair. He must be a carrier for one of the red hair SNPs since his dad had red hair.

StillWater
02-25-2020, 02:53 AM
Is it possible there are more SNPs which are responsible for red hair but we don't know about yet?

That's what I'm wondering about.

cheshire
03-03-2020, 07:38 AM
By mendel logic, do you need to have copies on both parents in order to have a chance to get it?

cheshire
03-03-2020, 07:39 AM
Also, when a person receives just one copy of this gene, does it manifest somehow? Like having a red beard only?

moesan
03-03-2020, 07:38 PM
All depends on what people call 'red hair', on one side -
otherwise, I think they found 7 mutated genes in Australia, linked to red hair - not all of them had the same penetrance ("power of expression"). Generally it's accepted that 'red' genes are recessive, but someones could have more imput, according to (close?) genetic environment (other genes linked to pigmentation in some way); so some rufosity could be expressed on phenotype spite heterozygoty, in some cases.
I knew some men who were typically red haired at 20's and became just a bit aubern-brown at 35's, when other members of their family stayed red all the time until whitening.
OK to consider that maybe we don't know all mutations responsible for red hair, yet.

Finn
03-20-2020, 07:24 PM
I guess the red hair trait has most probably multiple sources.

This is from 23and Me:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/utvqcg0sjoc.png

My impression:

MC1R R51C is most 'Celtic' West European red hair type, connected with Indo-Europeans?

MC1R D294H is Isles and France/Belgium, Swiss, looks a bit LaTene?

MC1R R160W is typical NE European (high in Sweden/ Baltic), the parts of Europe with the highest HG level, we already found this along Moltala samples.

The last one is also my red hair variant (my HG level is that of Sweden/Poland).
https://www.mupload.nl/img/f76f5v7eb6keu.50.08.png

Finn
03-21-2020, 08:17 AM
In add.
We can see that there is a correlation between R151C and the most other light features, skin type 1 and blue eyes and most of all vulnerable for melanoma. D294H and R160W dint't have that connection, at least according to this article.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5802264/

https://www.mupload.nl/img/c33dklj2g.27.51.png


So R151C is very connected to the 'classic Celtic redhead', with very light skin and light blue eyes.

In German information about skin protection for sunshine and skin types:


Skin type 1: The Celtic type
They have strikingly light, freckled skin, blue or green eyes and often reddish hair. Only about two percent of Germans belong to this type. Caution! They are extremely sensitive to the sun. Optimal sun protection is particularly important for you. They don't turn brown.


See the spread of R151C (23andme map) this is for this variant restricted to the higher latitudes, roughly 55 and higher, mostly 'foggy' area's with least sun hours of Europe. Then we speak about Scotland, Northern Ireland and West Norway.

I guess this makes sense because of the correlation between R151C and melanoma, the 'survival' rate in this area's is the biggest for this variant.

Sun hours Europe:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/4t6embean15f.46.41.png

Again the 23and me map:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/5e2uipwb49.png

Jessie
03-21-2020, 09:02 AM
I guess the red hair trait has most probably multiple sources.

This is from 23and Me:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/utvqcg0sjoc.png

My impression:

MC1R R51C is most 'Celtic' West European red hair type, connected with Indo-Europeans?

MC1R D294H is Isles and France/Belgium, Swiss, looks a bit LaTene?

MC1R R160W is typical NE European (high in Sweden/ Baltic), the parts of Europe with the highest HG level, we already found this along Moltala samples.

The last one is also my red hair variant (my HG level is that of Sweden/Poland).
https://www.mupload.nl/img/f76f5v7eb6keu.50.08.png

I personally don't agree with 23&Me's conclusions on the different red haired genes. Everyone of my family tested have the R160W version and also another study found "rs1805008, known as Arg160Trp or R160W; associated with red hair in an Irish population."

In this study 15.5% of the people tested carried the R160W variant for red hair. 30% of people carried two variants for red hair. I doubt there is such a divide between Irish redheads and others as far as the variants they carry.

https://i.imgur.com/UnRHesU.png

Here's the full text if anyone is interested.

https://www.jidonline.org/article/S0022-202X(15)40141-1/fulltext

Finn
03-21-2020, 09:14 AM
I personally don't agree with 23&Me's conclusions on the different red haired genes. Everyone of my family tested have the R160W version and also another study found "rs1805008, known as Arg160Trp or R160W; associated with red hair in an Irish population."

In this study 15.5% of the people tested carried the R160W variant for red hair. 30% of people carried two variants for red hair. I doubt there is such a divide between Irish redheads and others as far as the variants they carry.

https://i.imgur.com/UnRHesU.png

Here's the full text if anyone is interested.

https://www.jidonline.org/article/S0022-202X(15)40141-1/fulltext

Jessie, I guess it's not a matter of absoluteness. It could well be that the sum of all variants is in Ireland (Scotland) the biggest!

Reasoning the other way around R151C seems to be the highest in the 'classic red head hotspots' Ireland and Scotland. Is more unique for this places.
R160W is less exclusive Ireland/Scotland (although it is also frequent!) and seems to be relative high in Sweden/Lithuania, R151C is more seldom in NE Europe.

You see that R151C is more connected to the 'Celtic type' with very light features (=red hair + skin type 1 + blue eyes). That type is very seldom in Northeast and North-Central Europe.

I guess that in this case sun hours and their connection with high melanoma risk in R151C. In places with more sun (and that's also in NE Europe ^^^) this is for R151C an evolutionary disadvantage (certainly in agricultural society's).

From your mentioned article:

When the skin pigmentation was analyzed according to the degree of tanning following repeated exposure to natural sunlight, the presence of any variant and the Arg151Cys variant was significantly more common in individuals who did not tan or tanned poorly.

Personally I have R160W (not known R151C) gold blond hair (with light red undertone) but with chestnut eyes and I can tan.

Finn
03-21-2020, 12:17 PM
I personally don't agree with 23&Me's conclusions on the different red haired genes. Everyone of my family tested have the R160W version and also another study found "rs1805008, known as Arg160Trp or R160W; associated with red hair in an Irish population."

In this study 15.5% of the people tested carried the R160W variant for red hair. 30% of people carried two variants for red hair. I doubt there is such a divide between Irish redheads and others as far as the variants they carry.

https://i.imgur.com/UnRHesU.png

Here's the full text if anyone is interested.

https://www.jidonline.org/article/S0022-202X(15)40141-1/fulltext

This is a clear article of the BBC:


The result is red hair, light skin colour, often freckles and a greater sensitivity to sunlight.
The three types of red-head gene are:
Cysteine-red (or R151C) is carried by 10% of British people
Tryptophan-red (or R160W) is carried by 9% of British people
Histidine-red (or D294H) is carried by 2.5% of British people
There are also other, much rarer, variants.


Source (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-20237511)

I guess on the continent were the amount of redheads is much lower, but higher than world-wide average the Tryptophan-red (or R160W) is most probably (see the 23map) prevailing.

23abc
03-21-2020, 01:52 PM
Also, as I posted before in the thread, I have none of the 3 SNP variants 23andme claims are responsible for red hair and do have red hair. Out of all MC1R SNP variants connected with red hair, the only one I am a carrier of is rs1110400 (I155T). I also have common traits shared among red hair persons (relatively more pale & sensitive skin, more easily burnt, don't tan well). I think it's possible they don't have a full picture of what causes red hair, e.g. there may be some other SNP variants which cause red hair that they don't know about.

Finn
03-21-2020, 02:50 PM
Also, as I posted before in the thread, I have none of the 3 SNP variants 23andme claims are responsible for red hair and do have red hair. Out of all MC1R SNP variants connected with red hair, the only one I am a carrier of is rs1110400 (I155T). I also have common traits shared among red hair persons (relatively more pale & sensitive skin, more easily burnt, don't tan well). I think it's possible they don't have a full picture of what causes red hair, e.g. there may be some other SNP variants which cause red hair that they don't know about.

That could well be the case 23abc, or in the words of the BBC:

There are also other, much rarer, variants.

Finn
03-23-2020, 01:58 PM
The different snp's 'responsible' for red hair have a somewhat different spread. And all red heads seem to be more vulnerable for sunlight/uv radiation.


All of the variants that were related to red hair color were more frequent in the fair skinned individuals, although only the Arg160Trp was statistically significant (p = 0.046); none the less the Arg151Cys and Asp294His were more common in those with light skin type [14 of 45 (31%) vs three of 26 (12%), and seven of 63 (11%) vs one of 39 (3%)], respectively. When the skin pigmentation was analyzed according to the degree of tanning following repeated exposure to natural sunlight, the presence of any variant and the Arg151Cys variant was significantly more common in individuals who did not tan or tanned poorly.


So Cysteine-red (or R151C), carried by 10% of British people, tanned the most poorly, so have mostly skintype 1.

I already showed a map with sun hours but when I take the map of UV radiation, we see a clearly connection between the R151 C hotspots Ireland/Scotland/Norway, the lightest yellows, very low in UV radiation:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/f1bnenwkpap.28.59.png

rms2
03-23-2020, 02:09 PM
When the skin pigmentation was analyzed according to the degree of tanning following repeated exposure to natural sunlight, the presence of any variant and the Arg151Cys variant was significantly more common in individuals who did not tan or tanned poorly.

Am I reading that sentence correctly?

Because it looks to me like it is saying those who had any of the red hair variants plus Arg151Cys did not tan or tanned only poorly. In other words, those who had two variants, one of which was Arg151Cys, had the tanning problem.

But maybe I'm not understanding the wording of that sentence rightly. Of course, I have noticed that often the authors of scientific papers are not the best at making themselves understood.

Finn
03-23-2020, 02:28 PM
Am I reading that sentence correctly?

Because it looks to me like it is saying those who had any of the red hair variants plus Arg151Cys did not tan or tanned only poorly. In other words, those who had two variants, one of which was Arg151Cys, had the tanning problem.

But maybe I'm not understanding the wording of that sentence rightly. Of course, I have noticed that often the authors of scientific papers are not the best at making themselves understood.

Indeed the sentence seems to suggest that.

The research about the Russian situation tells this:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/y5cq0w.18.48.png

The R151C CT genotype was associated with a decreased number of individuals with brown eyes in melanoma patients compared with the control group (Table ​(Table3).3)


So my tentative conclusion all Red hair variants have mostly skins that are quite vulnerable for sun/uv, but R151C seems to be the most vulnerable and is mostly combined with other light features (eyes/skin).

Finn
03-23-2020, 02:37 PM
SNPedia makes this difference:

R151C
https://www.mupload.nl/img/voxpth.33.08.png

R160W
https://www.mupload.nl/img/f0plwpvtx53ic.33.55.png

Nice trivialities.

ADW_1981
03-23-2020, 02:48 PM
Also, as I posted before in the thread, I have none of the 3 SNP variants 23andme claims are responsible for red hair and do have red hair. Out of all MC1R SNP variants connected with red hair, the only one I am a carrier of is rs1110400 (I155T). I also have common traits shared among red hair persons (relatively more pale & sensitive skin, more easily burnt, don't tan well). I think it's possible they don't have a full picture of what causes red hair, e.g. there may be some other SNP variants which cause red hair that they don't know about.

I'll be honest, I've never seen a Greek with (true) red hair. It would be a first for me. I carry single copies of R160W, and R151C and had red hair as a child but turned that reddish brown with age. I'm just sometimes curious what people's definitions are of "red".

Finn
03-23-2020, 02:49 PM
Am I reading that sentence correctly?

Because it looks to me like it is saying those who had any of the red hair variants plus Arg151Cys did not tan or tanned only poorly. In other words, those who had two variants, one of which was Arg151Cys, had the tanning problem.

But maybe I'm not understanding the wording of that sentence rightly. Of course, I have noticed that often the authors of scientific papers are not the best at making themselves understood.
The sentences before makes it even more confusing rms2:

All of the variants that were related to red hair color were more frequent in the fair skinned individuals, although only the Arg160Trp was statistically significant (p = 0.046); none the less the Arg151Cys and Asp294His were more common in those with light skin type [14 of 45 (31%) vs three of 26 (12%), and seven of 63 (11%) vs one of 39 (3%)],

So fair skin is statistical correlated with R160W but light skin type is more seen in R151C.

So what's the difference between fair and light?

It's not my mother tongue so may be I miss the nuance.

PS add:
https://skincaregeeks.com/fair-vs-light-skin/

With regard to many Caucasians and Asians, a fair skin tone is associated with white skin in general. However, when applied to non-Caucasians or mixed Caucasians, fair skin is just a number of shades lighter than a tan skin tone. It is about as close to white as one could get, but just falling short of actually being white.

Light skin is sometimes subject to similar confusion, but it at least has a specific quality that distinguishes it from mere white skin. A light skin tone is a typically pale complexion, but with undertones of beige or yellow. It is a trait that can occur to a degree in Caucasian skin but is much more pronounced among lighter-skinned Asian races.

So fair can be skin type II or III, light is more bound to I???????????????

23abc
03-23-2020, 06:26 PM
I'll be honest, I've never seen a Greek with (true) red hair. It would be a first for me. I carry single copies of R160W, and R151C and had red hair as a child but turned that reddish brown with age. I'm just sometimes curious what people's definitions are of "red".

What is 'true' red hair? I had red hair on the top of my head until I hit my 20s, and it has since darkened. But I still have red hair in some areas (facial & pubic hair), are you saying this is not 'true' red hair? I also am very vulnerable to developing skin cancer, and have to get my moles checked regularly. My uncle also had red hair (but his did not darken much at all), and so does my nephew. I also do not know many other Greeks with red hair - it's rare, not impossible. I have an Assyrian friend with red hair, and a Jewish friend with red hair - red hair exists in many other places, just with much lower frequency than the traditional places that are associated with red hair.

lgmayka
03-23-2020, 09:13 PM
So R151C is very connected to the 'classic Celtic redhead', with very light skin and light blue eyes.
My ancestors are entirely from rural southeastern Poland. Two of my brothers are redheads. I have one red-hair allele at R151C. All three of us have brown eyes, although another brother has blue. (I am the only one of us who has taken a DNA test.)

Neither of our parents had red hair. My father's eyes were brown, my mother's blue.

rms2
03-23-2020, 10:32 PM
I probably posted this map somewhere in this thread already. It is based on the results of 23andMe customers and is a few years old, so take it with a grain of salt.

36940

rms2
03-23-2020, 10:36 PM
What is 'true' red hair? I had red hair on the top of my head until I hit my 20s, and it has since darkened. But I still have red hair in some areas (facial & pubic hair), are you saying this is not 'true' red hair? I also am very vulnerable to developing skin cancer, and have to get my moles checked regularly. My uncle also had red hair (but his did not darken much at all), and so does my nephew. I also do not know many other Greeks with red hair - it's rare, not impossible. I have an Assyrian friend with red hair, and a Jewish friend with red hair - red hair exists in many other places, just with much lower frequency than the traditional places that are associated with red hair.

I know a Jewish guy - 100% Ashkenazi in his autosomal results - who has a red beard. The hair on his head is kind of auburn and not as orange-red as his beard.

alan
03-24-2020, 12:26 AM
My ancestors are entirely from rural southeastern Poland. Two of my brothers are redheads. I have one red-hair allele at R151C. All three of us have brown eyes, although another brother has blue. (I am the only one of us who has taken a DNA test.)

Neither of our parents had red hair. My father's eyes were brown, my mother's blue.

When travelling through Poland I noticed that southern Poland around the Carpathians has a different look from other parts of Poland, including a number of redheads. I had practically seen no other redheads in northern and middle Poland.

Finn
03-25-2020, 04:29 PM
I probably posted this map somewhere in this thread already. It is based on the results of 23andMe customers and is a few years old, so take it with a grain of salt.

36940


My ancestors are entirely from rural southeastern Poland. Two of my brothers are redheads. I have one red-hair allele at R151C. All three of us have brown eyes, although another brother has blue. (I am the only one of us who has taken a DNA test.)

Neither of our parents had red hair. My father's eyes were brown, my mother's blue.

I guess that the 23and me is indeed rough, it's not detailed. But I guess not false.

From the hair variants, variants RC151 has the highest impact on having red hair followed the other two. The correlation between red hair and UV amount is assumable because of the higher melanoma risk. And of course it must be part of the gene pool, because Saami don't have much red hair but are living in a almost UV less area.
Ireland (11%) and Scotland (13%) are the frontrunners in red hair.

That said doesn't mean of course that is doesn't exist in for example Poland, but it's more rare in Poland.


In the Netherlands it's with average 2,5% also rare, in the Netherlands there is decreasing amount from the NE (Drenthe) to the SW (Zeeland).

Wiki:

In the Netherlands, 2.45% of the population is red-haired, according to the 1904 survey of 478,976 Dutch schoolchildren by anatomist Louis Bolk. Bolk found that the province of Drenthe had the highest frequency of the characteristic at 2.78%, and the province of Zeeland had the lowest frequency of 1.88%.


It would not surprise me if reddish blond is more prevalent in the Netherlands, but that's pure impression.

In general sense I think the correlation between blond hair and blue/grey eyes and brown/black hair and brown eyes and the red haired also tending to blue/grey eyes (bit less extreme as blond haired).

From a Dutch research:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/2bub2ao.07.15.png

I'm also a exception to that rule, I have gold blond hair with red touch (somewhat darkened trough the years) and chestnut eyes....that's quite exceptional I guess.

mildlycurly
03-27-2020, 07:22 PM
I carry absolutely none of the red hair alleles, which is shocking as two of my great-grandparents had red hair (one ginger, one auburn).

texasredphotog
09-01-2020, 09:57 PM
The autosomal SNP rs1805008 is apparently the same thing as R160W or Arg160Trp, which is one of the "RHC" (Red Hair Color) variants on the MC1R gene. My Family Finder raw data show that I have a "TC" there. The T is the allele for red hair, but it's a recessive trait, so you have to have "TT" to actually have red hair yourself. So, though I carry the trait for red hair, I don't have red hair myself, although I did have a lot of it in my moustache and beard before everything started going gray. When I was younger I was also told that I had "red highlights" in my otherwise dark hair.

My youngest daughter has red hair, as do three of my four grandkids, two boys and a girl, the children of my youngest son.

Rs1805008 is not the only red hair SNP. There are several others.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2013/04/26/sweeney-redhead-gene.cnn.html

http://imageshack.us/a/img546/66/redhairk.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/redhairk.jpg/)

I had red hair from birth, I have 3 kids with red hair, my mother was born red then went brown, my grandmother on my father's side was redheaded, and my grandfather on my mother's side was a redhead. I am so confused with my DNA report from Crigenetics. It also said I was brown eyed and freckles were inconclusive. It almost sounds like a different person's test but they assure me it is mine. Silly question: does DNA change as you get older or alter? my marker for freckles: Your genotype alleles are:
rs12203592 is TC
ilmnseq_seq_rs1805007.3_f2bt_ilmndup3 is --

texasredphotog
09-01-2020, 10:04 PM
I had red hair from birth, I have 3 kids with red hair, my mother was born red then went brown, my grandmother on my father's side was redheaded, and my grandfather on my mother's side was a redhead. I am so confused with my DNA report from Crigenetics. It also said I was brown eyed and freckles were inconclusive. It almost sounds like a different person's test but they assure me it is mine. Silly question: does DNA change as you get older or alter? my marker for freckles: Your genotype alleles are:
rs12203592 is TC
ilmnseq_seq_rs1805007.3_f2bt_ilmndup3 is --

pmokeefe
09-01-2020, 10:29 PM
I have brown hair but I am a carrier for a rare allele (~0.004) for red hair: rs11547464.
Genome-wide study of hair colour in UK Biobank explains most of the SNP heritability
(https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07691-z)
My father is also a carrier and his ancestors are from the British Isles, his hair is black.
As mentioned in previous posts Cheddar Man was also a carrier (https://www.nhm.ac.uk/content/dam/nhmwww/our-science/our-work/origins-evolution-futures/cheddar-man-pigmentation-data.xlsx).

I'm also a carrier for two other, less common, variants in the same gene, rs188004548 and rs140481921. They are in LD with rs11547464. I got those two from a WGS, they do not seem to be covered by 23andMe or AncestryDNA.

If you too have this allele, head straight to the dermatologist:
Multiple pigmentation gene polymorphisms account for a substantial proportion of risk of cutaneous malignant melanoma (https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/3672059)

erikjankoers
09-25-2020, 01:39 PM
Hello,

Hereby my results from 23&Me. The said that I have 5% chance of having red hair. What do you think? Was born with a bush black hair. It felt of and strawberry blond/orange returned. Now I am 33 and its light/medium auburn with some darkblonde copper strands in sun. I don't know why I got red hair, because I have only one variant copy at R160W (rs1805008)



Common red hair SNP's

R151C (rs1805007) -> CC (no variant)
R160W (rs1805008) -> CT (one variant copy)
D294H (i3002507/rs1805009) -> GG (no variant)



Other possible red hair SNP's

rs885479 -> GG (no variant)
rs2228479 -> GG (no variant)
rs1110400 -> TT (no variant)
rs1805005 -> GG (no variant)
rs1805006 -> Not genotyped said 23&Me (why not???)
rs11547464 -> GG (no variant)
rs34158934 -> CC (no variant)
rs368507952 -> GG (no variant)
rs200000734 -> CC (no variant)

pmokeefe
09-25-2020, 02:12 PM
Hereby my results from 23&Me.

...
1805006 -> Not genotyped said 23&Me (why not???)
...


23andMe: What does "not determined" mean?
(https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/212196888-What-does-not-determined-mean-)

In order to ensure that the data we return to customers is highly accurate, we use a stringent algorithm to make genotype calls. Occasionally, a user's data may not allow us to confidently determine his or her genotype at a particular marker. When the algorithm cannot make a confident genotype call, it gives a "not determined" result instead. It is possible that future review will allow us to call the genotype, but until that time, the data does not appear. In downloaded data, the entry for any uncalled SNPs displays '--' instead of a two-letter genotype.

loxias
09-25-2020, 05:11 PM
Mine : dark brown hair
R151C (rs1805007) -> CC (no variant)
R160W (rs1805008) -> CC (no variant)
D294H (i3002507/rs1805009) -> GG (no variant)

My partner : dark brown hair, but red-haired mother (who is part Silesian).
R151C (rs1805007) -> CC (no variant)
R160W (rs1805008) -> CC (no variant)
D294H (i3002507/rs1805009) -> GC (no variant)

Xeon
09-25-2020, 05:24 PM
Mine : dark brown hair
R151C (rs1805007) -> CC (no variant)
R160W (rs1805008) -> CC (no variant)
D294H (i3002507/rs1805009) -> GG (no variant)

My partner : dark brown hair, but red-haired mother (who is part Silesian).
R151C (rs1805007) -> CC (no variant)
R160W (rs1805008) -> CC (no variant)
D294H (i3002507/rs1805009) -> GC (no variant)

I've got somewhat lighter brown hair and have the same alleles as your partner. Interesting

loxias
09-25-2020, 05:34 PM
I've got somewhat lighter brown hair and have the same alleles as your partner. Interesting

Actually her hair can verge on medium brown in summer and she has the rare occasional red hair. Do you get those too?

Xeon
09-25-2020, 09:05 PM
Actually her hair can verge on medium brown in summer and she has the rare occasional red hair. Do you get those too?

I know that long exposure to sun light can lighten certain hair types, so it makes sense and I dont think so.
I had red hair in my early childhood days and it darkened over the years however, my facial hair has a reddish brown colour to it. sort of like Ashburn

Xeon
09-26-2020, 02:22 AM
nothing rare in west asia. childhood reddish or brown hair turns black or dark brown.

Yeah I'm not sure why that is. I'm guessing children have no melanin? My brother had platinum blonde hair