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Rathna
06-02-2013, 10:48 AM
I have spoken a lot of the Italian G2c-M377 (now G2b) and about their ancientness and probably origin in Italy. I think it is noteworthy that this sample from Benevento (from Boattini et al. 2013), clearly linked to the other known Italian samples, has DYS635=24, whereas the other Italian known has the more modal 21, and 24 or about it is the value of the Jewish G2c (now G2b2) cluster.



539 Benevento 13 23 15 10 13 16 11 12 11 14 11 30 18 16 21 13 15 10 24 G2c-M377

159519 Laiacona 12 23 15 10 13 16 11 12 11 14 11 31 17 17 21 10 17 10 NA
N19100 Colonnello 13 23 15 10 13 16 11 12 11 14 11 30 18 16 21 12 15 10 NA
N43746 Cigliano 13 23 16 10 16 18 11 12 13 14 11 30 16 15 21 10 15 10 21

DMXX
06-02-2013, 11:08 AM
Highly unlikely that G-M377 originated in Italy given its' significant (upwards of 11%) presence in select parts of Asia (e.g. the Pashtuns of Pakistan and Afghanistan) as Rome never extended so far east.

newtoboard
06-02-2013, 12:17 PM
Highly unlikely that G-M377 originated in Italy given its' significant (upwards of 11%) presence in select parts of Asia (e.g. the Pashtuns of Pakistan and Afghanistan) as Rome never extended so far east.

I have no real opinions on its origins but I thought the high frequencies were a result of small sample sizes and just pure luck that so much G-M377 turned up. I do agree that there is no evidence for it being from Italy especially given there is no or little G-M377 among many ethnic groups between Italy and Afghanistan. What do you suggest its origins is then? It is found among Jews (and we all about the theories of Israelite origins of the Pashtuns) but recent things I have reads seems to be indicate that this haplogroup spread from non-Jewish people to Jewish people and that theory would have problems explaining a lot of things with regards to haplogroup frequencies ie the lack of R1b/J1 in Pashtuns and the presence of L1a, L1c, R2a, R1a-Z93+ and different J2a clades. An origin of G-M377 somewhere in Anatolia or the Levant makes more sense to me.

Rathna
06-02-2013, 12:25 PM
Highly unlikely that G-M377 originated in Italy given its' significant (upwards of 11%) presence in select parts of Asia (e.g. the Pashtuns of Pakistan and Afghanistan) as Rome never extended so far east.

I have published some exams of this haplogroup on Worldfamilies and we should read them. I know that everybody thinks that hg. G comes from Caucasus, like hg R1b1 etc. Many thinks also mtDNA H, K (mine: K1a1b1e) etc. Indians think that Indo-European languages were born there etc. etc. This last paper of Boattini et al. probably has demonstrated that G2a is very ancient in Italy, probably Palaeolitic etc. I think that we should discuss about data, and not ideology. You, with your R2a and D4j5, probably come from the Indian Sub-Continent, but not everybody comes from there, if not 30,000 or more years ago. I hope that we may discuss about data: G-M377 is in Italy probably from many thousands of years, like is in Italy from many thousands of years the G-L91 of Oetzi etc.
Data, data. My hypothesis was also about the origin of the Jewish G-M377, but, if some administrators may put Kandell amongst the ungrouped and not amongst his linked Jews, we may say that Genetics is an opinion and not a science as I believe:


Ungrouped

567 Kandell Israel G2c 13 23 15

10 13-15 11 12 12 14 11 32 18 8-9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13-14-15-15 10 11 20-20 17 15 15 16 34-35 12 10

11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 0 21-22 15 10 11 12 14 9 13 19 21 17 13 11 13 10 11 11 12

30 15 8 15 11 21 27 20 11 12 12 13 11 9 10 11 10 11 11 31 11 12 23 16 11 11 30 15 20 12 24 16 13 15 27 12 24

17 12 12 18 9 12 11

G-M377 Jewish cluster

251127 Albert Ephraim Golburt, b: ~1865 Belarus G2c 13 23 15

10 13-15 11 12 11 14 11 32 18 8-9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13-14-15-15 10 11 20-20 17 16 15 16 33-35 12 10

11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 0 21-22 14 10 11 12 14 9 13 19 21 18 13 11 13 10 11 11 12

31 15 8 15 11 21 27 20 11 11 12 13 11 9 10 11 10 11 11 31 11 12 23 16 11 11 31 15 20 12 24 15 12 15 27 12 24

17 12 12 18 9 12 11

Rathna
06-02-2013, 12:50 PM
This is the speculative tree of Ray Banks:

M377, L72, L183
[PF5721 found in two M377+ men & in haplo K]
M283

When you find PF (Paolo Francalacci) it seems that this SNP has been found in Sardinia (Italy) and I’d be less sure than you about your ideas. Italians get the ancestor haplotype.
The two persons tested PF5721 are Kandell and Connuck of the Jewish G-M377 group.

newtoboard
06-02-2013, 03:03 PM
I have published some exams of this haplogroup on Worldfamilies and we should read them. I know that everybody thinks that hg. G comes from Caucasus, like hg R1b1 etc. Many thinks also mtDNA H, K (mine: K1a1b1e) etc. Indians think that Indo-European languages were born there etc. etc. This last paper of Boattini et al. probably has demonstrated that G2a is very ancient in Italy, probably Palaeolitic etc. I think that we should discuss about data, and not ideology. You, with your R2a and D4j5, probably come from the Indian Sub-Continent, but not everybody comes from there, if not 30,000 or more years ago. I hope that we may discuss about data: G-M377 is in Italy probably from many thousands of years, like is in Italy from many thousands of years the G-L91 of Oetzi etc.
Data, data. My hypothesis was also about the origin of the Jewish G-M377, but, if some administrators may put Kandell amongst the ungrouped and not amongst his linked Jews, we may say that Genetics is an opinion and not a science as I believe:


Ungrouped

567 Kandell Israel G2c 13 23 15

10 13-15 11 12 12 14 11 32 18 8-9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13-14-15-15 10 11 20-20 17 15 15 16 34-35 12 10

11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 0 21-22 15 10 11 12 14 9 13 19 21 17 13 11 13 10 11 11 12

30 15 8 15 11 21 27 20 11 12 12 13 11 9 10 11 10 11 11 31 11 12 23 16 11 11 30 15 20 12 24 16 13 15 27 12 24

17 12 12 18 9 12 11

G-M377 Jewish cluster

251127 Albert Ephraim Golburt, b: ~1865 Belarus G2c 13 23 15

10 13-15 11 12 11 14 11 32 18 8-9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13-14-15-15 10 11 20-20 17 16 15 16 33-35 12 10

11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 0 21-22 14 10 11 12 14 9 13 19 21 18 13 11 13 10 11 11 12

31 15 8 15 11 21 27 20 11 11 12 13 11 9 10 11 10 11 11 31 11 12 23 16 11 11 31 15 20 12 24 15 12 15 27 12 24

17 12 12 18 9 12 11


G2a was more likely born in Iran or Turkey than the Caucasus. Also R2a is found all over West Eurasia and his R2a isn't close to the Indian R1a. And mtdna D isn't common among South Asians anyways.

DMXX
06-03-2013, 12:04 PM
I know that everybody thinks that hg. G comes from Caucasus,


Without good reason; even if the discussion is reduced to clade frequencies, the fact that both G1 and G2 coexist in that region with several subclades each strongly hints Y-DNA G either originated in the Caucasus or a region immediately adjacent to it, such as the Anatolian or Iranian plateaus.



like hg R1b1 etc. Many thinks also mtDNA H, K (mine: K1a1b1e) etc. Indians think that Indo-European languages were born there etc. etc.


As you stated elsewhere in the message I'm quoting, the foundation of conclusions concerning population genetics should centre around the facts rather than ideology or dogma. Indocentrists who believe the Indo-Europeans spawned from the Indian Subcontinent are miseducating themselves by not exploring the plethora of evidence which counters their assertion. That simply isn't the same with other population genetics topics, such as the exact region of origin of Y-DNA R1b, where data is still being received.



This last paper of Boattini et al. probably has demonstrated that G2a is very ancient in Italy, probably Palaeolitic etc.


Note that Y-DNA G2a is a subclade of Y-DNA G. Data including modern frequencies or MRCA calculations must fit the phylogenetic tree of that subclade to support a wholesale origin of a haplogroup there.

Having said this, you haven't clarified your position (although parts of it can be surmised from your post) - Do you believe Y-DNA G originated in Italy rather than the Caucasus? If so, you'll have to provide more evidence of an Italian origin point which overruns the West Asian data.



I hope that we may discuss about data: G-M377 is in Italy probably from many thousands of years, like is in Italy from many thousands of years the G-L91 of Oetzi etc.
Data, data. My hypothesis was also about the origin of the Jewish G-M377, but, if some administrators may put Kandell amongst the ungrouped and not amongst his linked Jews, we may say that Genetics is an opinion and not a science as I believe:


Do you have any evidence which shows Y-DNA G-M377 in Italy has a greater age than anywhere further east?

Rathna
06-03-2013, 12:57 PM
I have written a lot about this on Worldfamilies and elsewhere

http://http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10769.0

Jill
03-03-2014, 02:57 PM
I have just come across your posting. My brother and second cousin are two of the members of the Family Tree DNA Jewish G2b M377 haplogroup. All members of this group are closely related and are said to descend from one man who ended up in the Lithuanian area from the Mediterranean sometime in the Middles Ages. The Pashtun group are a different sub group to the Jewish one, which must have divided off centuries before. One of the hypotheses is that the Jewish ancestor concerned arrived in Sicily and/or Italy from the caucasus/Babylonia area and moved up the coast of Italy via Naples/Venice and thence to central/Eastern Europe. The only way to prove this would be to find existing examples of G2b (e.g. in Italy) or family histories, and one member of the G2b group does have an oral history of Sicily transmitted down as well as a surname that is suggestive of this origin. But again this does not necessarily prove the movement of G2b. Yet others have suggested G2b may have gone straight to central/Eastern Europe from the caucaus. We just don't know enough as yet.

Rathna
03-04-2014, 05:54 PM
I have just come across your posting. My brother and second cousin are two of the members of the Family Tree DNA Jewish G2b M377 haplogroup. All members of this group are closely related and are said to descend from one man who ended up in the Lithuanian area from the Mediterranean sometime in the Middles Ages. The Pashtun group are a different sub group to the Jewish one, which must have divided off centuries before. One of the hypotheses is that the Jewish ancestor concerned arrived in Sicily and/or Italy from the caucasus/Babylonia area and moved up the coast of Italy via Naples/Venice and thence to central/Eastern Europe. The only way to prove this would be to find existing examples of G2b (e.g. in Italy) or family histories, and one member of the G2b group does have an oral history of Sicily transmitted down as well as a surname that is suggestive of this origin. But again this does not necessarily prove the movement of G2b. Yet others have suggested G2b may have gone straight to central/Eastern Europe from the caucaus. We just don't know enough as yet.

A sample of G-M377 is amongst the about 2000 samples released by Chromo2 with these mutations:
L183+, M377+, PF5721+, S1984+, S315/L72+, S3577+, S7520+, S7524+, S7535+, S7536+, S7538+, S7540+, S7541+
Of course we don't know who he is neither which is his origin, but if he were a British, this could be interesting, also for my theories.