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View Full Version : Ancient Eurasia K6 - Deducing Traces of Back to Africa Migrations



Angoliga
02-27-2017, 08:20 PM
Was there an ASI (Andamese/Papuan-like) migration back-to-Africa ~30kya?

Calling upon Africans to post their GedrosiaDNA (gedmatch calc) - Ancient Eurasia K6 results.
Feel free to share any related papers or personal observations for discussion :)



My results:

Ancestral_North_Eurasian -
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 4.60
East_Asian -
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer -
Natufian 3.14
Sub_Saharan 92.21


Family's results:

http://i.imgur.com/rLeKmK4.png
*All family members are >99% SSA on modern admix calculators (ie. no recent eurasian admixture)

My observations and some noteworthy back-to-africa papers:
I'm mostly interested in screening for traces of an ancestral south eurasian (Ancient South Indian/Andamese-like) component which seems to exhibit itself at low levels throughout East, Central and Northern African populations -- it's oddly apparent at non-negligible levels among SSAs that have no modern eurasian admixture (>99%SSA) which might give credence to notions of an ASI back-to-africa migration following the late glacial maximum (see paper under "observations" for details of younger M1 mtdna in East-Africa). On different ancient admix calculators, I noticed the afmd component is oftentimes accompanied with E_Asian/Papuan/Oceania-like affinities at non-negligible levels >2% - I'm curious if this is also just noise or part of an aggregate ASI/E_Asian population (ex. Onge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onge)) said to have anciently migrated back to Africa.

Within East-African SSA populations, one might argue the Ancestral S_Eurasian and E_Asian affinities are not direct and were passed through Cushitic intermediaries but proportionately this argument doesn't hold when comparing the results of other East-African populations with drastically varying "Cushitic" ancestry (Somali, Maasai, Hadza) -- on the calc's spreadsheet, these populations all have averages of ~2% S_Eurasian and E_Asian affinities despite having varying Natufian-like ancestry found in horners.

This paper, Ancient Human Migration after Out-of-Africa -- Daniel Shriner, Fasil Tekola-Ayele, Adebowale Adeyemo & Charles N. Rotim (2016) , suggests a possible back to Africa migration from India to East Africa; the presence of M1 is cited as supporting evidence:
Using autosmal ancestry-specific allele frequencies and a graph-based model implemented in TreeMix, the paper estimates different migration events which happen to show "non-tree-like behavior" :

Ancient Human Migration after
Out-of-Africa
Daniel Shriner, Fasil Tekola-Ayele, Adebowale Adeyemo & Charles N. Rotimi

...The second migration event indicates that Cushitic ancestry is a mixture of ancestries closely related to Nilo-Saharan/Omotic and Arabian ancestries. This migration event resolves the observed unstable placement between East African and Middle Eastern ancestries3,4,6: Cushitic ancestry has both East African and Middle Eastern origins. The fourth migration event indicated gene flow between Indian ancestry and the common ancestor of Arabian, Levantine-Caucasian, Northern European, and Southern European ancestries. In conjunction with the second migration event, this event connects India to East Africa. Taken together, these two events are consistent with the presence among East Africans of the mitochondrial DNA haplogroup M1, possibly reflecting migration from India to East Africa following the Last Glacial Maximum13,14,15.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4876373/pdf/srep26565.pdf





Interestingly, I also found my Central-Sudanic side of the family were the only members with traces of N_Eurasian affinities -- this seems to go inline with the traces of the "Metal Age Invader" (FTDNA's ancientorigins) that were also only found with this side of the family.

This paper delves into the genetic footprint of multiple Eurasian migrations into the Central-Sudanic region (present-day Chad). The traces of Ancestral N_Eurasian found on the C. Sudanic side of the family might be from the suggested African Humid Period. Based on R1b carriers in the region, the paper estimates the Chad R1b-V88 Y chromosomes coalesced 5,700–7,300 years ago: Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations (http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(16)30448-7)

Angoliga
02-28-2017, 03:11 AM
Here's the results of Africans in and around Central-East Africa, they're all distant GEDmatches of immediate family members:

Half Congolese(Bashi Tribe), half Rwandan (unknown ethnic group *probable Cushitic influence(Tutsi)):

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 0.82
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.51
East_Asian 1.45
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 2.81
Natufian 9.68
Sub_Saharan 84.73

Congolese (identified as Yembe, Central Congo?)
Ancestral_North_Eurasian -
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.43
East_Asian 0.08
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 0.13
Natufian 0.48
Sub_Saharan 98.88


Kenyan (unknown ethnic group)
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 1.27
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.16
East_Asian 1.22
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 0.26
Natufian 4.09
Sub_Saharan 91.99

half Ugandan (West-Nile region), half South Sudanese (Equatoria region, unknown ethnic group)
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 0.17
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.12
East_Asian 1.00
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer -
Natufian 5.07
Sub_Saharan 91.64


At first, I presumed the Ancestral_South_Eurasian and E_Asian results might be a bizarre rendering of my pygmy affinity but similarly to members in my immediate family, this Congolese match also has notable pygmy affinities ~10% yet lacks any ASE/E_Asian affinities above noise level.

The lack of these affinities in this Congolese match seems to agree with the idea that the ASE/E_Asian Back-to-Africa migration didn't expand into Western Africa. The Yoruba sample-set shows an average 100% Sub_Saharan on the calc's spreadsheet, further north/west the average Gambian however shows a hint of Ancestral S_Eurasian at 1.10%. Could this be from traces of ancient East-African migrations across the Sahel? Interestingly, the only West-African affinity of my immediate family on DNA.land is from the Senegalese River Valley and the Lower Niger river -- I assume this is due to ancient bidirectional migrations (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19309521) perhaps during the last Holocene .

Power77
02-28-2017, 03:20 AM
At first I thought the ASI and E_Asian affinities might be bizarre.
.

Hey NiloSaharan, have a look at this:

http://thegoldengnomon.blogspot.ca/2010/02/africans-and-east-asians-are-strikingly.html

Tell me what do you think.

Angoliga
02-28-2017, 04:23 AM
I smell a tangent brewing but hopefully the convo will swing back sooner than later...


Hey NiloSaharan, have a look at this:

http://thegoldengnomon.blogspot.ca/2010/02/africans-and-east-asians-are-strikingly.html

Tell me what do you think.

These common physical traits between some East-Asian and SSA populations can mislead people (*not implying you) to believe there must be a recent common genetic connection between the two populations when in fact, if we were to make the comparison between even more strikingly similar "black" looking East-Asian populations (ie. Papuans), we'd find they're genetically (yDNA, mtDNA and autsomally) anchored and closer related to other Asian populations than to SSAs.

I've seen striking similarities between Khoisan/San-like groups, even many Southern-Sudanese who have strikingly similar physical features to some East-Asians (ie. epicanthic folds, broad facial bone structure etc) -- IMO, without any academic reference handy, I think and believe it's already been proven that it's just human adaptation. Perhaps their common, near-treeless ancestral regions (The Kalahari, Sahara and Eastern Steppe) of these three afmd groups might explain some of their common physical traits -- that's pure speculation and conjecture on my part though

nee4speed111
02-28-2017, 07:27 AM
Instead of posting individual copts, I just decided to post the average result of the coptic samples I have

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 17.45
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.28
East_Asian 0.64
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 14.37
Natufian 55.01
Sub_Saharan 11.32

kikkk
02-28-2017, 10:36 AM
Results of my 2 Tunisian genocousins:
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 13.38
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.75
East_Asian 1.06
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 21.97
Natufian 46.30
Sub_Saharan 16.53

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 12.26
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.36
East_Asian -
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 24.91
Natufian 46.04
Sub_Saharan 15.44

JFWinstone
02-28-2017, 01:15 PM
My mother is half Mauritian, half british. We were expecting a lot more SSA but ended up with a lot of SEA, EA and SA, probably through Madagascar from slavery times and Indian from the indentured labourers. We think there might have been some Chinese indentured labourers in there somewhere as well though finding the proof is difficult.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 24.26
2 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 23.17
3 Natufian 17.49
4 Sub_Saharan 16.99
5 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 12.25
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 5.85

Deftextra
02-28-2017, 02:46 PM
Somali cousins:

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 5.52
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.25
East_Asian 1.16
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 5.89
Natufian 30.61
Sub_Saharan 56.58

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 7.00
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.00
East_Asian 0.07
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 5.72
Natufian 30.75
Sub_Saharan 54.45


Me and other Benadiris who have south-asian+other west asian ancestry through centries (possibly longer) of trade and interaction.

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 16.73
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 7.25
East_Asian 6.32
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 6.02
Natufian 28.68
Sub_Saharan 35.01

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 17.66
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 8.82
East_Asian 6.95
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 2.47
Natufian 30.85
Sub_Saharan 33.24

Population
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 15.93
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 7.52
East_Asian 3.81
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 6.22
Natufian 31.84
Sub_Saharan 34.68

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
02-28-2017, 06:48 PM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 88.07
2 Natufian 5.76
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 3.32
4 East_Asian 2.32
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.53

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hadza 7.37
2 Mota 7.86
3 Gambian 11.16
4 Esan 14.6
5 Yoruba 14.6
6 Masai 20.55
7 Somali 42.57
8 Moroccan 78.33
9 Saharawi 79.73
10 Algerian 81.96
11 Yemeni 87.8
12 Libyan 88.39
13 Egyptian 91.47
14 GoyetQ116 96.84
15 BedouinA 97.48
16 Jordanian 100.25
17 Syrian 101.19
18 Palestinian 101.49
19 Turkmen 103.25
20 Lebanese 103.48

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Azeri @ 2.04
2 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Azeri @ 2.04
3 67.3% Hadza + 32.7% Yoruba @ 2.25
4 67.3% Hadza + 32.7% Esan @ 2.25
5 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Iranian @ 2.26
6 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Iranian @ 2.26
7 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Iranian_Mazandarani @ 2.27
8 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Iranian_Mazandarani @ 2.27
9 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Iran_recent @ 2.27
10 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Iran_recent @ 2.27
11 87.8% Yoruba + 12.2% Iranian_Shirazi @ 2.31
12 87.8% Esan + 12.2% Iranian_Shirazi @ 2.31
13 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Kurd_C @ 2.31
14 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Kurd_C @ 2.31
15 90.7% Gambian + 9.3% Azeri @ 2.37
16 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Iran_N_WC1 @ 2.4
17 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Iran_N_WC1 @ 2.4
18 90.7% Gambian + 9.3% Iranian_Mazandarani @ 2.44
19 88.3% Yoruba + 11.7% Iran_ChL @ 2.45
20 88.3% Esan + 11.7% Iran_ChL @ 2.45

drobbah
02-28-2017, 09:32 PM
# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 54.10
2 Natufian 28.81
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 5.92
4 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 4.76
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 4.08
6 East_Asian 2.34


Finished reading population data. 136 populations found.
6 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Somali @ 3.769524
2 Masai @ 22.276991
3 Moroccan @ 34.589378
4 Hadza @ 34.828022
5 Saharawi @ 35.898506
6 Mota @ 37.272202
7 Algerian @ 38.246792
8 Yemeni @ 42.746281
9 Libyan @ 43.172455
10 Egyptian @ 46.118931

Awale
02-28-2017, 10:35 PM
NiloSaharan requested that I, the Sheikh, share this so here goes:

# Population Percent

1 Sub_Saharan 53.50
2 Natufian 29.94
3 West_European_Hunter_Gatherer 7.32
4 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 5.99
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.68

----

Using 1 population approximation:

1 Somali @ 3.916208
2 Masai @ 23.630966
3 Moroccan @ 32.424374
4 Saharawi @ 33.689442
5 Algerian @ 36.072395
6 Hadza @ 36.328186
7 Mota @ 38.750710
8 Libyan @ 41.446522
9 Yemeni @ 41.513435
10 Egyptian @ 44.524364
11 BedouinA @ 50.471107
12 Gambian @ 52.746883
13 Jordanian @ 53.276974
14 Palestinian @ 54.316074
15 Syrian @ 54.439693
16 Esan @ 56.176071
17 Yoruba @ 56.176071
18 Lebanese @ 56.340687
19 Jew_Libyan @ 56.385658
20 Saudi @ 56.882614

nee4speed111
02-28-2017, 11:11 PM
Forgot to include Oracle results, here are some for a copt

# Population Percent
1 Natufian 56.41
2 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 16.39
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 14.59
4 Sub_Saharan 12.3
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.3

# Population (source) Distance
1 BedouinA 7.51
2 Egyptian 7.88
3 Palestinian 8.99
4 Saudi 9.56
5 Jordanian 9.91
6 Jew_Yemenite 9.97
7 Libyan 10.03
8 Jew_Tunisian 10.49
9 Jew_Libyan 10.57
10 Lebanese 11.47
11 Levant_BA 12.07
12 Syrian 12.26
13 Jew_Moroccan 12.67
14 Yemeni 14.08
15 Druze 14.3
16 Cypriot 14.35
17 Jew_Ashkenazi 16.79
18 Sicilian 18.8
19 Italian_South 18.89
20 Jew_iraqi 19.1

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 64.4% Levant_BA + 35.6% Moroccan @ 1.42
2 61.9% Levant_BA + 38.1% Algerian @ 1.68
3 63.9% Levant_BA + 36.1% Saharawi @ 1.93
4 54.8% Libyan + 45.2% Levant_BA @ 2.26
5 68.8% Jew_Yemenite + 31.2% Saharawi @ 2.9
6 67% Jew_Yemenite + 33% Algerian @ 3.03
7 69.9% Saudi + 30.1% Saharawi @ 3.07
8 68.2% Saudi + 31.8% Algerian @ 3.38
9 62.5% Egyptian + 37.5% Levant_BA @ 3.87
10 70% Jew_Yemenite + 30% Moroccan @ 3.94
11 71.2% Saudi + 28.8% Moroccan @ 4.12
12 80.1% Egyptian + 19.9% Anatolia_N @ 4.2
13 50.2% Jew_Yemenite + 49.8% Libyan @ 4.2
14 51.5% Saudi + 48.5% Libyan @ 4.28
15 90.6% Levant_BA + 9.4% Gambian @ 4.37
16 90.9% Levant_BA + 9.1% Esan @ 4.37
17 90.9% Levant_BA + 9.1% Yoruba @ 4.37
18 89.3% Levant_BA + 10.7% Mota @ 4.52
19 89.1% Levant_BA + 10.9% Hadza @ 4.52
20 87.4% Levant_BA + 12.6% Masai @ 4.57

nee4speed111
02-28-2017, 11:25 PM
NiloSaharan requested that I, the Sheikh, share this so here goes:

# Population Percent

1 Sub_Saharan 53.50
2 Natufian 29.94
3 West_European_Hunter_Gatherer 7.32
4 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 5.99
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.68

----

Using 1 population approximation:

1 Somali @ 3.916208
2 Masai @ 23.630966
3 Moroccan @ 32.424374
4 Saharawi @ 33.689442
5 Algerian @ 36.072395
6 Hadza @ 36.328186
7 Mota @ 38.750710
8 Libyan @ 41.446522
9 Yemeni @ 41.513435
10 Egyptian @ 44.524364
11 BedouinA @ 50.471107
12 Gambian @ 52.746883
13 Jordanian @ 53.276974
14 Palestinian @ 54.316074
15 Syrian @ 54.439693
16 Esan @ 56.176071
17 Yoruba @ 56.176071
18 Lebanese @ 56.340687
19 Jew_Libyan @ 56.385658
20 Saudi @ 56.882614

I just noticed while looking at your results Awale, but your Eurasian side of your ancestry and the copt who's results I just included are very similar on this K6 Ancient Eurasia test.

Awale's Eurasian side, adjusted without the SSA portion

Natufian 64.38
West_European_Hunter_Gatherer 15.74
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 12.88
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 5.76

Coptic Eurasian side, adjusted without the SSA portion

Natufian 64.32
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 18.69
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 16.63
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.34

Now this is obviously a highly unscientific approach, but I just thought it was interesting how similarish the Eurasian side is.

Angoliga
02-28-2017, 11:58 PM
This paper uses the M1 mtdna haplogroup as an indicator for Asian back-to-africa migrations. It ironically demonstrates northwestern Africa as the earliest entry-point instead of Sinai Peninsula. I guess it's not a surprise that subsequent ancient migrations were followed in later periods:

Conclusion

"This study provides evidence that M1, or its ancestor, had an Asiatic origin. The earliest M1 expansion into Africa occurred in northwestern instead of northeastern areas; this early spread reached the Iberian Peninsula even affecting the Basques. The majority of the M1a lineages found outside and inside Africa had a more recent eastern Africa origin. Both western and eastern M1 lineages participated in the Neolithic colonization of the Sahara. The striking parallelism between subclade ages and geographic distribution of M1 and its North African U6 counterpart strongly reinforces this scenario. Finally, a relevant fraction of M1a lineages present today in the European Continent and nearby islands possibly had a Jewish instead of the commonly proposed Arab/Berber maternal ascendance."

Mitochondrial lineage M1 traces an early human backflow to Africa (2007) (http://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-8-223)


I wish we had more North-Western African samples for speculation's sake.

Abd.H
03-01-2017, 12:19 AM
My Ancestry results :
# Population Percent
1 Natufian 52.84
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 22.76
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 18.16
4 Sub_Saharan 2.96
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.78
6 East_Asian 0.5

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Cypriot 4.42
2 Druze 4.51
3 Lebanese 4.73
4 Syrian 6.48
5 Jew_Tunisian 6.7


My FTDNA results :
# Population Percent
1 Natufian 52.8
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 23.25
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 17.55
4 Sub_Saharan 3.09
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.49
6 East_Asian 0.83

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Druze 4.02
2 Lebanese 4.18
3 Cypriot 4.67
4 Syrian 5.88
5 Jordanian 6.77

Almagest
03-01-2017, 09:02 AM
# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 51.3
2 Natufian 31.51
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 7.08
4 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 5.94
5 East_Asian 3.64
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.54

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Somali 6.65




Oracle 4


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 51.30
2 Natufian 31.51
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 7.08
4 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 5.94
5 East_Asian 3.64


Finished reading population data. 136 populations found.
6 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Somali @ 6.456242



Which results should I be using generally, Oracle or Oracle-4?

JFWinstone
03-01-2017, 09:31 PM
Forgot to put oracles for mum:


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 GoyetQ116 24.57
2 Turkmen 27.62
3 Uzbek 27.73
4 Steppe_IA 30.01
5 Russian 34.27
6 Uygur 34.44
7 Hazara 34.68
8 Finnish 35.18
9 Tajik 35.51
10 Moroccan 36.97
11 Algerian 37.09
12 Steppe_MLBA 38.66
13 Ukrainian 39.54
14 Saharawi 39.62
15 Estonian 39.79
16 Hungarian 40.08
17 Balkar 40.18
18 Bulgarian 40.68
19 Libyan 40.75
20 Norwegian 40.82

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.8% Moroccan + 43.2% Clovis @ 12.58
2 56.7% Algerian + 43.3% Clovis @ 12.65
3 54.9% Saharawi + 45.1% Clovis @ 12.97
4 59.7% Moroccan + 40.3% Pima @ 13.51
5 59.6% Algerian + 40.4% Pima @ 13.73
6 57.9% Saharawi + 42.1% Pima @ 14.26
7 58.9% Moroccan + 41.1% Altaian @ 15.49
8 61.8% GoyetQ116 + 38.2% Uygur @ 15.58
9 69.9% GoyetQ116 + 30.1% Kyrgyz @ 15.75
10 62.1% GoyetQ116 + 37.9% Hazara @ 15.75
11 59.1% Moroccan + 40.9% Kusunda @ 15.81
12 65.5% Moroccan + 34.5% Eskimo @ 15.93
13 59.1% Algerian + 40.9% Kusunda @ 15.99
14 77.2% Uzbek + 22.8% Mota @ 16.02
15 72% GoyetQ116 + 28% Altaian @ 16.04
16 54.9% GoyetQ116 + 45.1% Uzbek @ 16.21
17 58.9% Algerian + 41.1% Altaian @ 16.22
18 62.3% Moroccan + 37.7% Sherpa @ 16.22
19 56.8% Moroccan + 43.2% Kyrgyz @ 16.22
20 75.6% GoyetQ116 + 24.4% Kalmyk @ 16.25

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Clovis +50% Saharawi @ 13.798530

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Finnish +25% Masai +25% Sherpa @ 3.295080

Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Eskimo + Finnish + GoyetQ116 + Somali @ 2.437281
2 Cambodian + Finnish + Masai + Russian @ 2.479501
3 Cambodian + Finnish + Finnish + Masai @ 2.517110
4 Eskimo + Estonian + GoyetQ116 + Somali @ 2.527614
5 Cambodian + Masai + Russian + Russian @ 2.603622
6 Eskimo + GoyetQ116 + Lithuanian + Somali @ 2.637577
7 Kurd_C + Masai + SHG + Tibetan @ 2.807920
8 GoyetQ116 + Nganasan + Somali + Steppe_MLBA @ 2.811912
9 Iran_recent + Masai + SHG + Tibetan @ 2.880444
10 Eskimo + GoyetQ116 + Russian + Somali @ 2.925536
11 Iran_N_WC1 + Masai + SHG + Tibetan @ 2.950706
12 Iranian_Mazandarani + Masai + SHG + Tibetan @ 3.058554
13 Iranian + Masai + SHG + Tibetan @ 3.074703
14 Eskimo + Europe_LNBA + GoyetQ116 + Somali @ 3.082004
15 Kurd_C + Masai + Motala12 + Tibetan @ 3.107023
16 Iranian_Mazandarani + Masai + Motala12 + Tibetan @ 3.189671
17 GoyetQ116 + Somali + Steppe_MLBA + Tibetan @ 3.209166
18 Iran_recent + Masai + Motala12 + Tibetan @ 3.213441
19 Iran_ChL + Masai + SHG + Tibetan @ 3.245047
20 Finnish + Masai + Steppe_MLBA + Tibetan @ 3.247599

blackflash16
03-02-2017, 01:42 AM
My results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 52.16
2 Natufian 31.36
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 7.98
4 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 6.33
5 East_Asian 1.49
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.67

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Somali 5.8
2 Masai 26.9
3 Moroccan 32.36
4 Saharawi 33.75
5 Algerian 36.17
6 Hadza 40.22
7 Yemeni 41.35
8 Libyan 41.54
9 Mota 42.88
10 Egyptian 44.65
11 BedouinA 50.85
12 Jordanian 53.84
13 Palestinian 54.91
14 Syrian 55.03
15 Lebanese 57.08
16 Jew_Libyan 57.31
17 Saudi 57.6
18 Gambian 57.62
19 Jew_Tunisian 57.84
20 Jew_Yemenite 57.89

Targum
03-24-2017, 10:10 PM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Natufian 49.18
2 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 25.96
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 19.27
4 Sub_Saharan 2.23
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.88
6 East_Asian 1.48

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Ashkenazi 2.01
2 Sicilian 3.56
3 Italian_South 3.7
4 Jew_Moroccan 4.65
5 Greek 6.43
6 Jew_Libyan 6.51
7 Jew_Tunisian 6.76
8 Albanian 8.13
9 Armenia_ChL 8.58
10 Cypriot 9.99
11 Turkish 11.36
12 Bulgarian 12.29
13 Lebanese 12.97
14 Druze 13.55
15 Syrian 13.85
16 Jordanian 13.95
17 Romanian 14.22
18 Palestinian 14.48
19 Adygei 15.62
20 Kumyk 15.9

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95% Jew_Ashkenazi + 5% Kurd_SE @ 0.38
2 95.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 4.9% Balochi @ 0.48
3 95.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 4.9% Brahui @ 0.51
4 91.4% Jew_Ashkenazi + 8.6% Iran_N_WC1 @ 0.52
5 91.9% Jew_Ashkenazi + 8.1% Iran_recent @ 0.53
6 95.2% Jew_Ashkenazi + 4.8% Pathan @ 0.54
7 95.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 4.9% Kalash @ 0.55
8 95.6% Jew_Ashkenazi + 4.4% Sindhi @ 0.55
9 94.4% Jew_Ashkenazi + 5.6% Pashtun_Afghan @ 0.55
10 90.6% Jew_Ashkenazi + 9.4% Azeri @ 0.56
11 95% Jew_Ashkenazi + 5% Makrani @ 0.62
12 95.7% Jew_Ashkenazi + 4.3% Punjabi @ 0.62
13 93.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 6.9% Iranian_Mazandarani @ 0.62
14 89.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 10.9% Adygei @ 0.63
15 91.9% Jew_Ashkenazi + 8.1% Iranian @ 0.64
16 94.8% Jew_Ashkenazi + 5.2% Baloch_Iranian @ 0.65
17 89.3% Jew_Ashkenazi + 10.7% Kumyk @ 0.65
18 89.6% Jew_Ashkenazi + 10.4% Balkar @ 0.66
19 85.7% Jew_Ashkenazi + 14.3% Turkish @ 0.67
20 92.3% Jew_Ashkenazi + 7.7% Kurd_C @ 0.68

JFWinstone
03-25-2017, 06:52 PM
My results, probably the smallest distances I've ever seen on any of the calculators for Oracle4 for me :P


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 34.09
2 Natufian 27.67
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 16.03
4 East_Asian 14.03
5 Sub_Saharan 6.46
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.73

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Russian @ 13.984088
2 Finnish @ 15.502388
3 Steppe_IA @ 18.311504
4 Ukrainian @ 18.610521
5 Hungarian @ 18.957626
6 GoyetQ116 @ 19.367043
7 Czech @ 19.857746
8 Steppe_MLBA @ 19.916378
9 Estonian @ 19.950245
10 Scottish @ 20.060392
11 Norwegian @ 20.072033
12 Croatian @ 20.110979
13 Romanian @ 20.342958
14 Bulgarian @ 20.534313
15 English @ 20.590715
16 Europe_LNBA @ 20.797421
17 French @ 21.079609
18 Icelandic @ 21.192158
19 Lithuanian @ 21.722002
20 Spanish @ 21.931713

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.2% Spanish + 25.8% Clovis @ 6.64
2 75.3% French + 24.7% Clovis @ 7.28
3 79% English + 21% Sherpa @ 7.37
4 82% Ukrainian + 18% Cambodian @ 7.39
5 76% Spanish + 24% Pima @ 7.41
6 77.5% English + 22.5% Kusunda @ 7.42
7 80.9% Ukrainian + 19.1% Sherpa @ 7.43
8 79.7% Czech + 20.3% Sherpa @ 7.49
9 80.2% English + 19.8% Cambodian @ 7.53
10 80.9% Czech + 19.1% Cambodian @ 7.55
11 78.2% Czech + 21.8% Kusunda @ 7.55
12 79.6% Scottish + 20.4% Sherpa @ 7.59
13 79.6% Ukrainian + 20.4% Kusunda @ 7.61
14 80.5% Hungarian + 19.5% Sherpa @ 7.62
15 80.8% Norwegian + 19.2% Cambodian @ 7.63
16 79.6% Norwegian + 20.4% Sherpa @ 7.63
17 77% French + 23% Pima @ 7.64
18 81.7% Hungarian + 18.3% Cambodian @ 7.66
19 77.7% Hungarian + 22.3% Clovis @ 7.67
20 70.6% Scottish + 29.4% Uygur @ 7.7

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Lithuanian +50% Turkmen @ 9.159871

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% BedouinA +25% Clovis +25% Hungarian_KO1 @ 2.186802

Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Algerian + Motala12 + Turkish + Uygur @ 0.484763
2 Algerian + Hazara + Motala12 + Turkish @ 0.691472
3 Algerian + SHG + Turkish + Uygur @ 1.101912
4 Motala12 + Saharawi + Turkish + Uygur @ 1.104446
5 Moroccan + Motala12 + Turkish + Uygur @ 1.107676
6 Algerian + Hungarian_KO1 + Iranian_Mazandarani + Uygur @ 1.123545
7 Algerian + Iranian_Mazandarani + Uygur + WHG @ 1.123545
8 Algerian + Hungarian_KO1 + Iran_ChL + Uygur @ 1.224255
9 Algerian + Iran_ChL + Uygur + WHG @ 1.224255
10 Hazara + Moroccan + Motala12 + Turkish @ 1.256416
11 Algerian + Hazara + SHG + Turkish @ 1.291474
12 Hazara + Motala12 + Saharawi + Turkish @ 1.299437
13 Algerian + Hazara + Hungarian_KO1 + Iranian_Mazandarani @ 1.339092
14 Algerian + Hazara + Iranian_Mazandarani + WHG @ 1.339092
15 Algerian + Hungarian_KO1 + Kurd_F + Uygur @ 1.350348
16 Algerian + Kurd_F + Uygur + WHG @ 1.350348
17 Algerian + Hazara + Hungarian_KO1 + Iran_ChL @ 1.380164
18 Algerian + Hazara + Iran_ChL + WHG @ 1.380164
19 Algerian + Hungarian_KO1 + Iranian + Uygur @ 1.393567
20 Algerian + Iranian + Uygur + WHG @ 1.393567

jaderose22
03-25-2017, 09:47 PM
These are my results.


Sub_Saharan 86.57
2 Natufian 6.31
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 2.56
4 East_Asian 2.43
5 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 1.65
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.48

Darko
03-25-2017, 10:07 PM
my result:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 54.66
2 Natufian 26.2
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 9.75
4 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 8.72
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.68

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Somali 7.73
2 Masai 23.23
3 Moroccan 35.71
4 Hadza 36.04
5 Saharawi 37.44
6 Mota 38.26
7 Algerian 39.49
8 Libyan 45.76
9 Yemeni 45.82
10 Egyptian 48.95
11 Gambian 53.23
12 BedouinA 55.09
13 Esan 56.81
14 Yoruba 56.81
15 Jordanian 57.91
16 Syrian 58.98
17 Palestinian 59.12
18 Jew_Libyan 60.88
19 Lebanese 61.14
20 GoyetQ116 61.23

jaderose22
03-25-2017, 10:19 PM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 88.07
2 Natufian 5.76
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 3.32
4 East_Asian 2.32
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.53

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hadza 7.37
2 Mota 7.86
3 Gambian 11.16
4 Esan 14.6
5 Yoruba 14.6
6 Masai 20.55
7 Somali 42.57
8 Moroccan 78.33
9 Saharawi 79.73
10 Algerian 81.96
11 Yemeni 87.8
12 Libyan 88.39
13 Egyptian 91.47
14 GoyetQ116 96.84
15 BedouinA 97.48
16 Jordanian 100.25
17 Syrian 101.19
18 Palestinian 101.49
19 Turkmen 103.25
20 Lebanese 103.48

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Azeri @ 2.04
2 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Azeri @ 2.04
3 67.3% Hadza + 32.7% Yoruba @ 2.25
4 67.3% Hadza + 32.7% Esan @ 2.25
5 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Iranian @ 2.26
6 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Iranian @ 2.26
7 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Iranian_Mazandarani @ 2.27
8 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Iranian_Mazandarani @ 2.27
9 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Iran_recent @ 2.27
10 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Iran_recent @ 2.27
11 87.8% Yoruba + 12.2% Iranian_Shirazi @ 2.31
12 87.8% Esan + 12.2% Iranian_Shirazi @ 2.31
13 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Kurd_C @ 2.31
14 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Kurd_C @ 2.31
15 90.7% Gambian + 9.3% Azeri @ 2.37
16 88.1% Yoruba + 11.9% Iran_N_WC1 @ 2.4
17 88.1% Esan + 11.9% Iran_N_WC1 @ 2.4
18 90.7% Gambian + 9.3% Iranian_Mazandarani @ 2.44
19 88.3% Yoruba + 11.7% Iran_ChL @ 2.45
20 88.3% Esan + 11.7% Iran_ChL @ 2.45

Our oracles look pretty close


# Population (source) Distance
1 Hadza 5.67
2 Mota 6.81
3 Gambian 12.63
4 Esan 16.17
5 Yoruba 16.17
6 Masai 18.9
7 Somali 40.86
8 Moroccan 76.41
9 Saharawi 77.78
10 Algerian 80.01
11 Yemeni 86.18
12 Libyan 86.61
13 Egyptian 89.75
14 GoyetQ116 94.83
15 BedouinA 95.81
16 Jordanian 98.57
17 Syrian 99.54
18 Palestinian 99.82
19 Turkmen 101.63
20 Jew_Libyan 101.79


Its backwards too I'm closer to middle eastern and east African while you're close to the Nigerian populations. Lol and I'm supposed to be the Nigerian lol.

Espoir
06-16-2019, 03:33 AM
As much it’s overdue, it’s interesting how it keep showing up.
Here is mine. Tutsi from Congo.


# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 69.68
2 Natufian 16.99
3 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 5.88
4 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 5.72
5 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 1.73


Finished reading population data. 136 populations found.
6 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Masai @ 6.727458
2 Hadza @ 16.249865
3 Mota @ 17.988869
4 Somali @ 19.575893
5 Gambian @ 32.199867
6 Esan @ 35.754124
7 Yoruba @ 35.754124
8 Moroccan @ 52.826511
9 Saharawi @ 54.070789
10 Algerian @ 56.318645
11 Yemeni @ 62.471874
12 Libyan @ 62.552933
13 Egyptian @ 65.670326
14 BedouinA @ 71.528435
15 GoyetQ116 @ 72.768639
16 Jordanian @ 74.184113
17 Syrian @ 75.215889
18 Palestinian @ 75.340179
19 Jew_Libyan @ 77.034256
20 Lebanese @ 77.226753

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Mota +50% Somali @ 4.220690


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Mota +25% Mota +25% Saharawi @ 3.260913


Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Mota + Mota + Mota + Saharawi @ 3.260913
2 Hadza + Mota + Mota + Saharawi @ 3.392245
3 Gambian + Masai + Mota + Saharawi @ 3.977344
4 Hadza + Moroccan + Mota + Mota @ 4.040066
5 Hadza + Hadza + Mota + Saharawi @ 4.085986
6 Algerian + Mota + Mota + Mota @ 4.159671
7 Moroccan + Mota + Mota + Mota @ 4.169758
8 Algerian + Hadza + Mota + Mota @ 4.194192
9 Mota + Mota + Somali + Somali @ 4.220690
10 Gambian + Masai + Moroccan + Mota @ 4.227795
11 Esan + Masai + Mota + Saharawi @ 4.274572
12 Masai + Mota + Saharawi + Yoruba @ 4.274572
13 Algerian + Gambian + Masai + Mota @ 4.347736
14 Hadza + Hadza + Moroccan + Mota @ 4.414671
15 Algerian + Esan + Masai + Mota @ 4.519278
16 Algerian + Masai + Mota + Yoruba @ 4.519278
17 Esan + Masai + Moroccan + Mota @ 4.558244
18 Masai + Moroccan + Mota + Yoruba @ 4.558244
19 Gambian + Libyan + Mota + Mota @ 4.682868
20 Gambian + Mota + Mota + Saharawi @ 4.695532

Done.

Espoir
06-16-2019, 05:03 AM
Here's the results of Africans in and around Central-East Africa, they're all distant GEDmatches of immediate family members:

Half Congolese(Bashi Tribe), half Rwandan (unknown ethnic group *probable Cushitic influence(Tutsi)):

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 0.82
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.51
East_Asian 1.45
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 2.81
Natufian 9.68
Sub_Saharan 84.73

Congolese (identified as Yembe, Central Congo?)
Ancestral_North_Eurasian -
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.43
East_Asian 0.08
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 0.13
Natufian 0.48
Sub_Saharan 98.88


Kenyan (unknown ethnic group)
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 1.27
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.16
East_Asian 1.22
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 0.26
Natufian 4.09
Sub_Saharan 91.99

half Ugandan (West-Nile region), half South Sudanese (Equatoria region, unknown ethnic group)
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 0.17
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.12
East_Asian 1.00
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer -
Natufian 5.07
Sub_Saharan 91.64


At first, I presumed the Ancestral_South_Eurasian and E_Asian results might be a bizarre rendering of my pygmy affinity but similarly to members in my immediate family, this Congolese match also has notable pygmy affinities ~10% yet lacks any ASE/E_Asian affinities above noise level.

The lack of these affinities in this Congolese match seems to agree with the idea that the ASE/E_Asian Back-to-Africa migration didn't expand into Western Africa. The Yoruba sample-set shows an average 100% Sub_Saharan on the calc's spreadsheet, further north/west the average Gambian however shows a hint of Ancestral S_Eurasian at 1.10%. Could this be from traces of ancient East-African migrations across the Sahel? Interestingly, the only West-African affinity of my immediate family on DNA.land is from the Senegalese River Valley and the Lower Niger river -- I assume this is due to ancient bidirectional migrations (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19309521) perhaps during the last Holocene .
The Congolese Yembe is very interesting, no clear sign of Eurasian ancestry. Cool!

Espoir
06-16-2019, 05:04 AM
Here's the results of Africans in and around Central-East Africa, they're all distant GEDmatches of immediate family members:

Half Congolese(Bashi Tribe), half Rwandan (unknown ethnic group *probable Cushitic influence(Tutsi)):

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 0.82
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.51
East_Asian 1.45
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 2.81
Natufian 9.68
Sub_Saharan 84.73

Congolese (identified as Yembe, Central Congo?)
Ancestral_North_Eurasian -
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.43
East_Asian 0.08
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 0.13
Natufian 0.48
Sub_Saharan 98.88


Kenyan (unknown ethnic group)
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 1.27
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.16
East_Asian 1.22
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 0.26
Natufian 4.09
Sub_Saharan 91.99

half Ugandan (West-Nile region), half South Sudanese (Equatoria region, unknown ethnic group)
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 0.17
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.12
East_Asian 1.00
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer -
Natufian 5.07
Sub_Saharan 91.64


At first, I presumed the Ancestral_South_Eurasian and E_Asian results might be a bizarre rendering of my pygmy affinity but similarly to members in my immediate family, this Congolese match also has notable pygmy affinities ~10% yet lacks any ASE/E_Asian affinities above noise level.

The lack of these affinities in this Congolese match seems to agree with the idea that the ASE/E_Asian Back-to-Africa migration didn't expand into Western Africa. The Yoruba sample-set shows an average 100% Sub_Saharan on the calc's spreadsheet, further north/west the average Gambian however shows a hint of Ancestral S_Eurasian at 1.10%. Could this be from traces of ancient East-African migrations across the Sahel? Interestingly, the only West-African affinity of my immediate family on DNA.land is from the Senegalese River Valley and the Lower Niger river -- I assume this is due to ancient bidirectional migrations (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19309521) perhaps during the last Holocene .
Be careful with Bashi, some of them like the Pastoral Bahavu are phenotypically closer to Tutsis. Donít know of any genetic study about them, but I assume they might be very close to Tutsis.

sum1
06-16-2019, 02:11 PM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 49.66
2 Natufian 31.02
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 7.67
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 7.29
5 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 4.35


Finished reading population data. 136 populations found.
6 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Somali @ 9.026160
2 Masai @ 27.902666
3 Moroccan @ 29.578457
4 Saharawi @ 30.719917
5 Algerian @ 33.196621
6 Libyan @ 38.547779
7 Yemeni @ 38.735924
8 Hadza @ 40.321583
9 Egyptian @ 41.693214
10 Mota @ 42.291828

Seems I scored a lot higher than most people in ASE.

WeGene also picks up some Indian ancestry for me when I have no known Indian ancestry and scored 99.9% Somali on 23andme. I wonder what caused them to pick up this ancestry.

VytautusofAukstaitija
06-16-2019, 02:21 PM
Be careful with Bashi, some of them like the Pastoral Bahavu are phenotypically closer to Tutsis. Don’t know of any genetic study about them, but I assume they might be very close to Tutsis.

Wait - how much phenotypically Tutsi or NE African-looking folks are there in Congo and the Great Lakes?

And what's the history of the more eastern members of this group? are there any past the the Congolese Rift mountain ranges? Did any such groups ever exist past the Congo river?

I know that some pastoralist groups went as far south as Katanga - and that the namesake people of the Songora region of the southern Rwenzori mountians look very Tutsi, as do the royal family. And that are Tutsis in the nearby Congolese section of the Virunga mountians, and we have the Hema further north in the vicinity of Bunia - so how large is the spread of Erythrean/Cushitic descended peoples in the Great Lakes and Central Africa? who are the farthest flung pastoralist groups historically (or even prehistorically) and presently that you know of?

Also - do you see any similarities between the Great Lakes pastoralist peoples and heavily Erythraen/Cushitic influenced SW African pastoralist people like the Khoi Nama, and Bantu Herero?

All this deserves it's own thread tbh, but is it possible that you can give a summary?

Espoir
06-17-2019, 06:22 AM
Wait - how much phenotypically Tutsi or NE African-looking folks are there in Congo and the Great Lakes?
In D.R.Congo there is Banyamulenge(most south-Western Tutsis) located in the plateaus of Itombwe/Fizi. Keep in mind that there are other groups in South Kivu that are Tutsis but not Banyamulenge. Bahavu, I already mentioned them. Tutsis of North Kivu, close to Rwanda-Uganda border. Then Bahema of areas around Bunia( close to Rwenzori mountains range), near their linguistic relatives Batooro of Uganda.

In Uganda, there is Basongola, Bahima( not to be confused with Bahema) of Ankole, Batuku. All those are closely related(phenotypically) groups. Though, they all speak different dialects. Bahema of Congo are also very much related to all these Ugandan groups said above.

Then comes Tutsis of Rwanda, Burundi.
Western Tanzania has other groups too. There is Baha of Buha kingdom, and many other that Iím not very knowledgeable about. Karagwe was a kingdom ruled by a dynasty of Ba-Hinda. Guess the populace has some Tutsi groups apart from royals. Someone knowledgeable can add to this since Iím not very familiar with Tanzania. I know the groups but donít want engolf the whole of kingdoms into Tutsis , I assume they have their agricultural neighbors in those Tanzanian kingdoms.



And what's the history of the more eastern members of this group? are there any past the the Congolese Rift mountain ranges? Did any such groups ever exist past the Congo river?

The first Person(Banyamulenge) to cross into present day Congo had few of his descendants move further West into Kasai and those people were completely assimilated in the local Kasai people. These look very Nilotic today.



I know that some pastoralist groups went as far south as Katanga - and that the namesake people of the Songora region of the southern Rwenzori mountians look very Tutsi, as do the royal family. And that are Tutsis in the nearby Congolese section of the Virunga mountians, and we have the Hema further north in the vicinity of Bunia - so how large is the spread of Erythrean/Cushitic descended peoples in the Great Lakes and Central Africa? who are the farthest flung pastoralist groups historically (or even prehistorically) and presently that you know of?
Impressed! How do u know all this? Other than Bunyoro, most of not all Kingdoms in the Great Lakes had Tutsi-looking royals. I was surprised by a royal from Batooro(Tooro kingdom) that was E-M75 and genetically was very similar to us, but specifically like Hema. I would expect him to be more Nilotic influenced since Bunyoro-Tooro-Buganda ruling dynasties are of Nilotic origin.
Banyamulenge are the farthest spread pastoralists in central Africa.


Also - do you see any similarities between the Great Lakes pastoralist peoples and heavily Erythraen/Cushitic influenced SW African pastoralist people like the Khoi Nama, and Bantu Herero?

Not really! From pictures I have seen, Nama look more like the Iraqw or other Tanzanian Cushitic/Nilotic pastoralists. Inter-lacustrine pastoralists, regardless which country they are from, have their own look with of course overlaps with other pastoral groups outside that region.


All this deserves it's own thread tbh, but is it possible that you can give a summary?

I know! You can if you want. I would be more than happy to share what I know:)

Rwaka
06-18-2019, 12:29 PM
Hello. Tutsi from Rwanda

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 74.10
2 Natufian 16.75
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 2.90
4 East_Asian 2.67
5 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 1.94
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.64


Finished reading population data. 136 populations found.
6 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Masai @ 3.007317
2 Hadza @ 11.334406
3 Mota @ 15.108930
4 Somali @ 22.739302
5 Gambian @ 27.783373
6 Esan @ 31.196812
7 Yoruba @ 31.196812
8 Moroccan @ 57.172150
9 Saharawi @ 58.345551
10 Algerian @ 60.646557
11 Yemeni @ 66.316193
12 Libyan @ 66.580467
13 Egyptian @ 69.629601
14 BedouinA @ 75.477638
15 Jordanian @ 78.189339
16 GoyetQ116 @ 78.241058
17 Syrian @ 79.221199
18 Palestinian @ 79.313744
19 Lebanese @ 81.255295
20 Jew_Libyan @ 81.351059

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Masai +50% Masai @ 3.007317


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Hadza +25% Masai +25% Somali @ 1.834042


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Hadza + Hadza + Masai + Somali @ 1.834042
2 Esan + Hadza + Somali + Somali @ 2.078049
3 Hadza + Somali + Somali + Yoruba @ 2.078049
4 Gambian + Masai + Masai + Somali @ 2.465501
5 Gambian + Hadza + Somali + Somali @ 2.470564
6 Hadza + Masai + Masai + Masai @ 2.655827
7 Esan + Mota + Somali + Somali @ 2.765312
8 Mota + Somali + Somali + Yoruba @ 2.765312
9 Esan + Masai + Masai + Somali @ 2.813773
10 Masai + Masai + Somali + Yoruba @ 2.813773
11 Hadza + Masai + Mota + Somali @ 2.834834
12 Masai + Masai + Masai + Masai @ 3.007317
13 Gambian + Mota + Somali + Somali @ 3.021153
14 Hadza + Hadza + Hadza + Somali @ 3.206467
15 Esan + Hadza + Hadza + Saharawi @ 3.337531
16 Hadza + Hadza + Saharawi + Yoruba @ 3.337531
17 Gambian + Gambian + Hadza + Libyan @ 3.368391
18 Esan + Gambian + Hadza + Libyan @ 3.500894
19 Gambian + Hadza + Libyan + Yoruba @ 3.500894
20 Gambian + Gambian + Somali + Somali @ 3.513886

drobbah
06-18-2019, 01:33 PM
My mum

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 53.72
2 Natufian 30.89
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 6.82
4 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 4.04
5 East_Asian 3.23
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.30


Finished reading population data. 136 populations found.
6 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Somali @ 4.112993
2 Masai @ 23.684034
3 Moroccan @ 33.660515
4 Saharawi @ 34.903416
5 Hadza @ 36.340923
6 Algerian @ 37.296864
7 Mota @ 39.177578
8 Yemeni @ 41.343452
9 Libyan @ 41.835911
10 Egyptian @ 44.714890
11 BedouinA @ 50.553032
12 Gambian @ 52.941902
13 Jordanian @ 53.373260
14 Palestinian @ 54.394234
15 Syrian @ 54.515766
16 Esan @ 56.316776
17 Yoruba @ 56.316776
18 Lebanese @ 56.440865
19 Saudi @ 56.825737
20 Jew_Libyan @ 57.084152

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Somali +50% Somali @ 4.112993


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Masai +25% Saudi +25% Somali @ 3.406003


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++
1 Hadza + Levant_BA + Masai + Somali @ 2.606317
2 Hadza + Somali + Somali + Yemeni @ 2.771059
3 Hadza + Jew_Yemenite + Masai + Somali @ 3.120696
4 Egyptian + Hadza + Somali + Somali @ 3.151381
5 Esan + Levant_BA + Somali + Somali @ 3.207947
6 Levant_BA + Somali + Somali + Yoruba @ 3.207947
7 Gambian + Jew_Yemenite + Somali + Somali @ 3.226506
8 Hadza + Masai + Saudi + Somali @ 3.230677
9 Gambian + Saudi + Somali + Somali @ 3.265684
10 Gambian + Levant_BA + Somali + Somali @ 3.325019
11 Hadza + Libyan + Somali + Somali @ 3.364225
12 BedouinA + Masai + Masai + Somali @ 3.379507
13 Esan + Jew_Yemenite + Somali + Somali @ 3.401707
14 Jew_Yemenite + Somali + Somali + Yoruba @ 3.401707
15 Masai + Masai + Saudi + Somali @ 3.406003
16 Jew_Yemenite + Masai + Masai + Somali @ 3.424562
17 Esan + Saudi + Somali + Somali @ 3.426970
18 Saudi + Somali + Somali + Yoruba @ 3.426970
19 Egyptian + Masai + Masai + Somali @ 3.540407
20 Masai + Masai + Palestinian + Somali @ 3.642030

drobbah
06-18-2019, 01:42 PM
My father

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Sub_Saharan 53.98
2 Natufian 29.58
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 6.54
4 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 4.42
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.87
6 East_Asian 2.60


Finished reading population data. 136 populations found.
6 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Somali @ 3.478221
2 Masai @ 22.730900
3 Moroccan @ 34.215073
4 Hadza @ 35.353149
5 Saharawi @ 35.526958
6 Algerian @ 37.879494
7 Mota @ 37.952728
8 Yemeni @ 42.128876
9 Libyan @ 42.622810
10 Egyptian @ 45.525791
11 BedouinA @ 51.357231
12 Gambian @ 51.990417
13 Jordanian @ 54.134663
14 Palestinian @ 55.191586
15 Syrian @ 55.255085
16 Esan @ 55.408875
17 Yoruba @ 55.408875
18 Lebanese @ 57.197197
19 Saudi @ 57.682632
20 Jew_Libyan @ 57.751873

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Somali +50% Somali @ 3.478221


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Masai +25% Somali +25% Yemeni @ 2.711636


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++
1 Hadza + Somali + Somali + Yemeni @ 2.000177
2 Hadza + Levant_BA + Masai + Somali @ 2.101089
3 Hadza + Masai + Saudi + Somali @ 2.236242
4 Hadza + Jew_Yemenite + Masai + Somali @ 2.318984
5 Levant_BA + Masai + Mota + Somali @ 2.503336
6 Masai + Masai + Somali + Yemeni @ 2.711636
7 Egyptian + Masai + Masai + Somali @ 2.731951
8 Mota + Somali + Somali + Yemeni @ 2.746661
9 Gambian + Saudi + Somali + Somali @ 2.794013
10 Hadza + Libyan + Somali + Somali @ 2.802587
11 Egyptian + Hadza + Somali + Somali @ 2.846671
12 Levant_BA + Masai + Masai + Masai @ 2.900306
13 Esan + Saudi + Somali + Somali @ 2.917064
14 Saudi + Somali + Somali + Yoruba @ 2.917064
15 Gambian + Jew_Yemenite + Somali + Somali @ 2.935273
16 BedouinA + Masai + Masai + Somali @ 2.937059
17 Esan + Jew_Yemenite + Somali + Somali @ 3.068998
18 Jew_Yemenite + Somali + Somali + Yoruba @ 3.068998
19 Jew_Yemenite + Masai + Mota + Somali @ 3.069144
20 Libyan + Mota + Somali + Somali @ 3.096963

VytautusofAukstaitija
06-18-2019, 11:21 PM
In D.R.Congo there is Banyamulenge(most south-Western Tutsis) located in the plateaus of Itombwe/Fizi. Keep in mind that there are other groups in South Kivu that are Tutsis but not Banyamulenge. Bahavu, I already mentioned them. Tutsis of North Kivu, close to Rwanda-Uganda border. Then Bahema of areas around Bunia( close to Rwenzori mountains range), near their linguistic relatives Batooro of Uganda.

In Uganda, there is Basongola, Bahima( not to be confused with Bahema) of Ankole, Batuku. All those are closely related(phenotypically) groups. Though, they all speak different dialects. Bahema of Congo are also very much related to all these Ugandan groups said above.

Then comes Tutsis of Rwanda, Burundi.
Western Tanzania has other groups too. There is Baha of Buha kingdom, and many other that Iím not very knowledgeable about. Karagwe was a kingdom ruled by a dynasty of Ba-Hinda. Guess the populace has some Tutsi groups apart from royals. Someone knowledgeable can add to this since Iím not very familiar with Tanzania. I know the groups but donít want engolf the whole of kingdoms into Tutsis , I assume they have their agricultural neighbors in those Tanzanian kingdoms.



The first Person(Banyamulenge) to cross into present day Congo had few of his descendants move further West into Kasai and those people were completely assimilated in the local Kasai people. These look very Nilotic today.



Impressed! How do u know all this? Other than Bunyoro, most of not all Kingdoms in the Great Lakes had Tutsi-looking royals. I was surprised by a royal from Batooro(Tooro kingdom) that was E-M75 and genetically was very similar to us, but specifically like Hema. I would expect him to be more Nilotic influenced since Bunyoro-Tooro-Buganda ruling dynasties are of Nilotic origin.
Banyamulenge are the farthest spread pastoralists in central Africa.



Not really! From pictures I have seen, Nama look more like the Iraqw or other Tanzanian Cushitic/Nilotic pastoralists. Inter-lacustrine pastoralists, regardless which country they are from, have their own look with of course overlaps with other pastoral groups outside that region.



I know! You can if you want. I would be more than happy to share what I know:)

Your telling me there are descendants in Central Congo? when did this migration occur?

Also, I believe that there was a caste-like system that existed in the Great Lakes/Central Africa in regards to genetically very similar and related far-flung groups of nomadic warrior-aristocracies rich in Cushitic/Erythrean ancestry that - despite the huge geographic distances through very rugged and harsh terrain, remained essentially identical for hundreds of years, despite each one speaking a different Bantu or Nilotic language.

This looks very similar and near-identical to many parts of South Asia, where the immigration and hiving off of Indo-Aryan Brahmin clans and septs from the Ganges belt southwards, and the socio-cultural and linguistic assimilation of these newly arrived Brahim Indo-Aryan elites into their various Indo-Aryan and non-Indo-Aryan adopted ethnes, sliding right into the previously highest existing or newly created elite stratra, with many having only some to no mixture occurring between the lower stratra of "co-ethnics" and co-linguals - with their ancestry largely being similar to other Brahmin groups and distinct from their co-linguals and "co-ethnics" whose language and culture they largely have, but whom they have little to no shared ancestry and marital ties and lifestyles (despite the fact that seemingly most Brahmin groups incurred significant admixture with previous and later elites and aristocracies and upper-castes, and assimilation of females outside the upper-castes into their ranks).

If that is the case in South Asia and in the Great Lakes/Central Africa - then where did these Great Lakes pastoralists come from? If similar to the South Asian context, then they must have had a common origin (however recent), although a parallel evolution and independent lines of admixture for each group is possible, but we will need to see IBD sharing between the various Great Lakes pastoralists to prove or disprove that. And their eerily similar cultures and lifestyles seem to strengthen the case of common origin from some ancestral Great Lakes pastoralist group that essentially splintered with various factions of pastoralists bands and clans, who moving through both military and socio-political strongmanning to dominate various Bantu peoples and groups, and adopting their languages.

One theory I like to entertain is the seat of the ancestral Great Lakes pastoralists (the current ones - not ancients) being somewhere in the Rwenzori range. The easternmost Ugandan Nilotes have clear Cushitic/Erythrean ancestry, and even the hunter-gatherer Kuliak-speaking groups of northeastern Uganda like the Ik and Tepes have clear Cushitic/Erythrean linguistic influence. The next door Turkana region has very ancient pastoralist sites of clear Cushitic/Erythrean derivation like Lothagam and PN and Elmentietan sites. And the diversity of pastoralists groups peaks near the Rwenzori mountians, as you have the Bahima and Bahema, Batutsi, and Basongola.

If Cushitic/Erythrean-descended pastoralists groups has penetrated past the Zambezi by 2000 BP, what date does that place the earliest Cushitic/Eyrthrean-descended pastoralists past Lake Kayoga and Karamoja? I mean they were in the next door Turkan 5,000 years ago. So the PN and ELM clans had 5,000 years to pass the volcanic Elgon range and past the Turkan and into Karamoja and just past Kayoga to arrive where their descendants currently live and have been for hundreds for years. It is possible the ancestral Great Lakes pastoralists moved out after picking up a significant amount of early Nilotic ancestry in Karamoja or closer to Lake Kayoga area, and then went further southwards and/or eastwards.

But another possibility could be that the ancestral Great Lakes pastoralists, being a Cushitic/Erythrean group living in the NE Congo bordering Uganda and South Sudan (arriving from the PN/ELM nucleus via either or both South Sudan or Karamoja and Rwenzori range) mixed with incoming Central Sudanic agropastoralists ancestral to the Lendu, and received their Bantu-like and Nilo-Sudanic ancestry from them in a single pulse (as CS are almost a 50:50 west/central African - Nilotic mix), and then migrated past the Rwenzori and other head-lands into the eastern Great Lakes. But ydna doesn't really support this tbh, especially the very Bantu ydna and mtdna present in those Great Lakes pastoralists that lines up well with the west African ancestry being from Bantus rather than more anciently admixed Central Sudanics (unless there is heavy Ubangian admixture into Central Sudanics we don't know).

Since you mention Bunyoro, the female royal definitely looks Tutsi, and the male royal however doesn't as much. The Busoga monarch looks Kikuyu-looking and may have some degree of Cushitic/Eyrthrean ancestry as well. I also saw the Rwenzururu monarch who looks Tutsi. But back to the Bunyoro, since they claim ancestry from the Bachwezi kings and aristocrats, doesn't that make them of essentially Great Lakes paternalist ancestry? or has it been usurped by a non-pastoralist group?

Also - what do you think of the Bachwezi (People of the Moon?), they are mentioned as a militant warrior-aristocracy of old, who seemingly began large-scale statecraft and empire-building in the Great Lakes, and whom alot of Ugandans always connect strongly with Great Lakes pastoralist peoples, like the Bahima.

I find something about the Great Lakes pastoralists ydna interesting - especially E-M75. The E-M75 that dominates in the Great Lakes and northern east Africa is E-M41, a very young lineage seemingly (might be older), but on Yfull - it's tmrca is currently 5,600 with the samples they have. E-M41 is not found in Bantus outside of northeastern Africa and the Great Lakes, and is found in Bantus with no contact with Nilo-Saharans like the Hutu. If Great Lakes pastoralist E-M75 on Yfull still keeps E-M41 under 5,600 years, then it is entirely possible that this lineage is a diagnostic PN/ELM marker, and spread with South Cushitic/Erythrean males.

Of all these Ugandan and other Great Lakes monarchs, are any of them of non pastoralist paternal background? Especially Buganda? and those claiming Nilotic origins may be speaking of heavily Erythrean/Cushitic admixed Nilotes rather than Dinka-like folks.

Espoir
06-19-2019, 05:55 AM
Your telling me there are descendants in Central Congo? when did this migration occur?

It was members of one family, not that many people. Most of them didnít go that far. We have them in our community. It started around 1600 A.D.



Also, I believe that there was a caste-like system that existed in the Great Lakes/Central Africa in regards to genetically very similar and related far-flung groups of nomadic warrior-aristocracies rich in Cushitic/Erythrean ancestry that - despite the huge geographic distances through very rugged and harsh terrain, remained essentially identical for hundreds of years, despite each one speaking a different Bantu or Nilotic language.

This looks very similar and near-identical to many parts of South Asia, where the immigration and hiving off of Indo-Aryan Brahmin clans and septs from the Ganges belt southwards, and the socio-cultural and linguistic assimilation of these newly arrived Brahim Indo-Aryan elites into their various Indo-Aryan and non-Indo-Aryan adopted ethnes, sliding right into the previously highest existing or newly created elite stratra, with many having only some to no mixture occurring between the lower stratra of "co-ethnics" and co-linguals - with their ancestry largely being similar to other Brahmin groups and distinct from their co-linguals and "co-ethnics" whose language and culture they largely have, but whom they have little to no shared ancestry and marital ties and lifestyles (despite the fact that seemingly most Brahmin groups incurred significant admixture with previous and later elites and aristocracies and upper-castes, and assimilation of females outside the upper-castes into their ranks).

If that is the case in South Asia and in the Great Lakes/Central Africa - then where did these Great Lakes pastoralists come from? If similar to the South Asian context, then they must have had a common origin (however recent), although a parallel evolution and independent lines of admixture for each group is possible, but we will need to see IBD sharing between the various Great Lakes pastoralists to prove or disprove that. And their eerily similar cultures and lifestyles seem to strengthen the case of common origin from some ancestral Great Lakes pastoralist group that essentially splintered with various factions of pastoralists bands and clans, who moving through both military and socio-political strongmanning to dominate various Bantu peoples and groups, and adopting their languages.
Interesting, haplogroups answer easily that question of common origin. But, I donít know if there is any sign of that. The only Eurasian haplogroups we have are only maternal ones, where M1a, K1a, R0a,J1d are showing up. That was a surprise to me. Didnít expect them


One theory I like to entertain is the seat of the ancestral Great Lakes pastoralists (the current ones - not ancients) being somewhere in the Rwenzori range. The easternmost Ugandan Nilotes have clear Cushitic/Erythrean ancestry, and even the hunter-gatherer Kuliak-speaking groups of northeastern Uganda like the Ik and Tepes have clear Cushitic/Erythrean linguistic influence. The next door Turkana region has very ancient pastoralist sites of clear Cushitic/Erythrean derivation like Lothagam and PN and Elmentietan sites. And the diversity of pastoralists groups peaks near the Rwenzori mountians, as you have the Bahima and Bahema, Batutsi, and Basongola.

Simply refer the region as inter-lacustrine, that itís official name. N.E. Ugandans like Karamajong are Nilo-hamites related to the Masai. I donít know any connection to Tutsis.


If Cushitic/Erythrean-descended pastoralists groups has penetrated past the Zambezi by 2000 BP, what date does that place the earliest Cushitic/Eyrthrean-descended pastoralists past Lake Kayoga and Karamoja? I mean they were in the next door Turkan 5,000 years ago. So the PN and ELM clans had 5,000 years to pass the volcanic Elgon range and past the Turkan and into Karamoja and just past Kayoga to arrive where their descendants currently live and have been for hundreds for years. It is possible the ancestral Great Lakes pastoralists moved out after picking up a significant amount of early Nilotic ancestry in Karamoja or closer to Lake Kayoga area, and then went further southwards and/or eastwards.
Actually, archeology in Rwanda showed that there were pastoralists in Rwanda at about 600 B.C. Thatís 2600 B.P.


But another possibility could be that the ancestral Great Lakes pastoralists, being a Cushitic/Erythrean group living in the NE Congo bordering Uganda and South Sudan (arriving from the PN/ELM nucleus via either or both South Sudan or Karamoja and Rwenzori range) mixed with incoming Central Sudanic agropastoralists ancestral to the Lendu, and received their Bantu-like and Nilo-Sudanic ancestry from them in a single pulse (as CS are almost a 50:50 west/central African - Nilotic mix), and then migrated past the Rwenzori and other head-lands into the eastern Great Lakes. But ydna doesn't really support this tbh, especially the very Bantu ydna and mtdna present in those Great Lakes pastoralists that lines up well with the west African ancestry being from Bantus rather than more anciently admixed Central Sudanics (unless there is heavy Ubangian admixture into Central Sudanics we don't know).

Since you mention Bunyoro, the female royal definitely looks Tutsi, and the male royal however doesn't as much. The Busoga monarch looks Kikuyu-looking and may have some degree of Cushitic/Eyrthrean ancestry as well. I also saw the Rwenzururu monarch who looks Tutsi. But back to the Bunyoro, since they claim ancestry from the Bachwezi kings and aristocrats, doesn't that make them of essentially Great Lakes paternalist ancestry? or has it been usurped by a non-pastoralist group?
Rwenzururu, I think, itís those Basongola you mentioned. Yeah! Bunyoro Queen is abviously of this Tutsi type. Banyoro royals descend from Luo Babiito who took over the empire from Bachwezi. Donít know if those Luos where pastoralists or agropastoralists.


Also - what do you think of the Bachwezi (People of the Moon?), they are mentioned as a militant warrior-aristocracy of old, who seemingly began large-scale statecraft and empire-building in the Great Lakes, and whom alot of Ugandans always connect strongly with Great Lakes pastoralist peoples, like the Bahima.
They well a tall pastoral group that is credited with the system of leadership that was found in the Great Lakes region kingdoms. Yes, their descendants must be abviously Great Lakes pastoralists.

I find something about the Great Lakes pastoralists ydna interesting - especially E-M75. The E-M75 that dominates in the Great Lakes and northern east Africa is E-M41, a very young lineage seemingly (might be older), but on Yfull - it's tmrca is currently 5,600 with the samples they have. E-M41 is not found in Bantus outside of northeastern Africa and the Great Lakes, and is found in Bantus with no contact with Nilo-Saharans like the Hutu. If Great Lakes pastoralist E-M75 on Yfull still keeps E-M41 under 5,600 years, then it is entirely possible that this lineage is a diagnostic PN/ELM marker, and spread with South Cushitic/Erythrean males.


Of all these Ugandan and other Great Lakes monarchs, are any of them of non pastoralist paternal background? Especially Buganda? and those claiming Nilotic origins may be speaking of heavily Erythrean/Cushitic admixed Nilotes rather than Dinka-like folks.
Buganda is a break-away part of Bunyoro. The first king of Buganda was Kintu from Babiito(Luo) who invaded and unified many Baganda clans. ď The people were organized into groups that had a common ancestry and constituted the most important unit in Buganda's culture - the clan. Despite a common language and culture, the clans were loosely autonomous. The clan leaders (Abataka) ruled over their respective clans. There was no caste system and all clans were equal. This did not preclude the fact that from time to time, the leader of one clan might be militarily stronger than the others. In such a case, the leader could establish hegemony over the other clans for a time.Ē

Angoliga
06-20-2019, 11:36 PM
It was members of one family, not that many people. Most of them didn’t go that far. We have them in our community. It started around 1600 A.D.



Interesting, haplogroups answer easily that question of common origin. But, I don’t know if there is any sign of that. The only Eurasian haplogroups we have are only maternal ones, where M1a, K1a, R0a,J1d are showing up. That was a surprise to me. Didn’t expect them



Simply refer the region as inter-lacustrine, that it’s official name. N.E. Ugandans like Karamajong are Nilo-hamites related to the Masai. I don’t know any connection to Tutsis.


Actually, archeology in Rwanda showed that there were pastoralists in Rwanda at about 600 B.C. That’s 2600 B.P.


Rwenzururu, I think, it’s those Basongola you mentioned. Yeah! Bunyoro Queen is abviously of this Tutsi type. Banyoro royals descend from Luo Babiito who took over the empire from Bachwezi. Don’t know if those Luos where pastoralists or agropastoralists.


They well a tall pastoral group that is credited with the system of leadership that was found in the Great Lakes region kingdoms. Yes, their descendants must be abviously Great Lakes pastoralists.

I find something about the Great Lakes pastoralists ydna interesting - especially E-M75. The E-M75 that dominates in the Great Lakes and northern east Africa is E-M41, a very young lineage seemingly (might be older), but on Yfull - it's tmrca is currently 5,600 with the samples they have. E-M41 is not found in Bantus outside of northeastern Africa and the Great Lakes, and is found in Bantus with no contact with Nilo-Saharans like the Hutu. If Great Lakes pastoralist E-M75 on Yfull still keeps E-M41 under 5,600 years, then it is entirely possible that this lineage is a diagnostic PN/ELM marker, and spread with South Cushitic/Erythrean males.




I hate to take this personal, I really shouldn't be posting without consent but this demonstration is too relevant : )

It goes to shows how intertwined one's language and ethnicity can play out, this is a photo of my mother and her nephew (my first-cousin) whose father is Munyoro:

https://i.imgur.com/BsPcq5Y.png

I hope to get him and his siblings tested one day, it would be interesting to compare the Cushitic-like affinity


My very proud Kakwa speaking mother looks indistinguishably West-African (likely due to CS admixture?), whereas my Bantu-speaking half-Bunyoro cousin's partial Cushitic ancestry makes him pass more-so for an Erythrean speaker -- IMO anyway



Buganda is a break-away part of Bunyoro. The first king of Buganda was Kintu from Babiito(Luo) who invaded and unified many Baganda clans. “ The people were organized into groups that had a common ancestry and constituted the most important unit in Buganda's culture - the clan. Despite a common language and culture, the clans were loosely autonomous. The clan leaders (Abataka) ruled over their respective clans. There was no caste system and all clans were equal. This did not preclude the fact that from time to time, the leader of one clan might be militarily stronger than the others. In such a case, the leader could establish hegemony over the other clans for a time.”

I have no immediate reference on the topic but I find it hard to believe the Baganda kingdom was initiated as recent as the Luo migration. Maybe just in name?
From prior Bantu migrations, wasn't there highly organized pops in this region? ...I recall reading about highly advanced Iron working from sometime back

Angoliga
06-20-2019, 11:51 PM
Y
One theory I like to entertain is the seat of the ancestral Great Lakes pastoralists (the current ones - not ancients) being somewhere in the Rwenzori range. The easternmost Ugandan Nilotes have clear Cushitic/Erythrean ancestry, and even the hunter-gatherer Kuliak-speaking groups of northeastern Uganda like the Ik and Tepes have clear Cushitic/Erythrean linguistic influence. The next door Turkana region has very ancient pastoralist sites of clear Cushitic/Erythrean derivation like Lothagam and PN and Elmentietan sites. And the diversity of pastoralists groups peaks near the Rwenzori mountians, as you have the Bahima and Bahema, Batutsi, and Basongola.

If Cushitic/Erythrean-descended pastoralists groups has penetrated past the Zambezi by 2000 BP, what date does that place the earliest Cushitic/Eyrthrean-descended pastoralists past Lake Kayoga and Karamoja? I mean they were in the next door Turkan 5,000 years ago. So the PN and ELM clans had 5,000 years to pass the volcanic Elgon range and past the Turkan and into Karamoja and just past Kayoga to arrive where their descendants currently live and have been for hundreds for years. It is possible the ancestral Great Lakes pastoralists moved out after picking up a significant amount of early Nilotic ancestry in Karamoja or closer to Lake Kayoga area, and then went further southwards and/or eastwards.

But another possibility could be that the ancestral Great Lakes pastoralists, being a Cushitic/Erythrean group living in the NE Congo bordering Uganda and South Sudan (arriving from the PN/ELM nucleus via either or both South Sudan or Karamoja and Rwenzori range) mixed with incoming Central Sudanic agropastoralists ancestral to the Lendu, and received their Bantu-like and Nilo-Sudanic ancestry from them in a single pulse (as CS are almost a 50:50 west/central African - Nilotic mix), and then migrated past the Rwenzori and other head-lands into the eastern Great Lakes. But ydna doesn't really support this tbh, especially the very Bantu ydna and mtdna present in those Great Lakes pastoralists that lines up well with the west African ancestry being from Bantus rather than more anciently admixed Central Sudanics (unless there is heavy Ubangian admixture into Central Sudanics we don't know).

Since you mention Bunyoro, the female royal definitely looks Tutsi, and the male royal however doesn't as much. The Busoga monarch looks Kikuyu-looking and may have some degree of Cushitic/Eyrthrean ancestry as well. I also saw the Rwenzururu monarch who looks Tutsi. But back to the Bunyoro, since they claim ancestry from the Bachwezi kings and aristocrats, doesn't that make them of essentially Great Lakes paternalist ancestry? or has it been usurped by a non-pastoralist group?

Also - what do you think of the Bachwezi (People of the Moon?), they are mentioned as a militant warrior-aristocracy of old, who seemingly began large-scale statecraft and empire-building in the Great Lakes, and whom alot of Ugandans always connect strongly with Great Lakes pastoralist peoples, like the Bahima.

I find something about the Great Lakes pastoralists ydna interesting - especially E-M75. The E-M75 that dominates in the Great Lakes and northern east Africa is E-M41, a very young lineage seemingly (might be older), but on Yfull - it's tmrca is currently 5,600 with the samples they have. E-M41 is not found in Bantus outside of northeastern Africa and the Great Lakes, and is found in Bantus with no contact with Nilo-Saharans like the Hutu. If Great Lakes pastoralist E-M75 on Yfull still keeps E-M41 under 5,600 years, then it is entirely possible that this lineage is a diagnostic PN/ELM marker, and spread with South Cushitic/Erythrean males.

Of all these Ugandan and other Great Lakes monarchs, are any of them of non pastoralist paternal background? Especially Buganda? and those claiming Nilotic origins may be speaking of heavily Erythrean/Cushitic admixed Nilotes rather than Dinka-like folks.

Interesting convo!

Wouldn't these pastoral migrations all be episodic, spanning from the neolithic (TZ_Luxmanda) to as recent as the 16th century (Luo and Eastern-Nilotic speakers [Teso, Massai, Bari, Kakwa, Karamojong...])?

From what I recall, linguists/historians state the Eastern-Nilotic branch having a homeland in and around the Lake Turkana region (South-Western Ethiopia more precisely).
Oral history mentions either a drought or/combination of warring Oromo expansions was the catalyst for their dispersal, each wave heavily admixing with the indigenous they encountered:


The Bari migrated into South-Sudan and heavily admixed with Central-Sudanics (the Madi); the Kakwa broke off from this wave and migrated southward into the border regions of Uganda/DRC.
My maternal line is Kakwa; the few I've tested don't have a spec of recent Cushitic-like ancestry. So perhaps this wave of migration was heavily diluted from intermarrying CS-speakers, it would explain why there's not much autosomal difference from them and my paternal-CS family members.

The Teso migrated into Eastern-Uganda and admixed with Bantu and HG admixed pops

The Samburu/Maasai group went southward, with the Maa speakers penetrating as far as TZ. This group intermixed most with with the indigenous Cushtic/Erythrean pops, and to a lesser extent Bantu/HG admixed pops.


Based on the ancient southern African samples from the Skoglund paper, the Cushitic-like ancestry would of course date back further -- though some migrations were more recent like the Herero in Namibia.
They're said to have relatively recent ancestry from pastoralists in the great lakes region.

When Lukasz uploaded some HGPD herero kits, I recall some family members oddly appearing as gedmatches.

VytautusofAukstaitija
06-21-2019, 03:34 PM
@NiloSaharan, thanks for that info!

Do you have any idea where the WC African ancestry of Central Sudanics comes from? and do all Central Sudanics have it?

And if I remember off my mind - the Zaghawa seemed very similar to Nilotics or no? as in their % of the Nilotic component.

Thanks!

VytautusofAukstaitija
06-21-2019, 03:38 PM
I hate to take this personal, I really shouldn't be posting without consent but this demonstration is too relevant : )

It goes to shows how intertwined one's language and ethnicity can play out, this is a photo of my mother and her nephew (my first-cousin) whose father is Munyoro:

https://i.imgur.com/BsPcq5Y.png

I hope to get him and his siblings tested one day, it would be interesting to compare the Cushitic-like affinity


My very proud Kakwa speaking mother looks indistinguishably West-African (likely due to CS admixture?), whereas my Bantu-speaking half-Bunyoro cousin's partial Cushitic ancestry makes him pass more-so for an Erythrean speaker -- IMO anyway




I have no immediate reference on the topic but I find it hard to believe the Baganda kingdom was initiated as recent as the Luo migration. Maybe just in name?
From prior Bantu migrations, wasn't there highly organized pops in this region? ...I recall reading about highly advanced Iron working from sometime back

It would be very interesting to test your uncle, as he is a mix between Central Sudanics and seemingly Cushitic/Erythrean admixed Bantus. Not many people can a have a mix of such exotic ancestries - exotic as in from rarer and more numerically smaller meta-populations like Cushitic/Eyrthrean admixed Bantus and Central Sudanics, whose mix and ratios of ancestral streams are very unique and rare, even for the African landmass.

Chad Rohlfsen
06-21-2019, 04:29 PM
I wouldn't put much into a calculators results. Admixture is unreliable. This Sub-Saharan component is probably a mix of different branches and is probably missing African ancestry that shares drift with all Eurasians. Hence, whacky results.

Angoliga
06-21-2019, 06:03 PM
I wouldn't put much into a calculators results. Admixture is unreliable. This Sub-Saharan component is probably a mix of different branches and is probably missing African ancestry that shares drift with all Eurasians. Hence, whacky results.

Agreed. This thread is over 2 years old from my more "novice" years : )


@NiloSaharan, thanks for that info!

Do you have any idea where the WC African ancestry of Central Sudanics comes from? and do all Central Sudanics have it?

And if I remember off my mind - the Zaghawa seemed very similar to Nilotics or no? as in their % of the Nilotic component.

Thanks!

Using nmonte, the best fits were Mali_Mandenka followed by Gambians I believe... so more favorable to the N-westerly Niger-Congo speakers than Bantu or more proximate Niger-Delta pops.
This goes well with my CS paternal grandmother's mtdna being L2e (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?241-L2e-(previoulsy-L2d2)-in-French-Guiana-and-beyond&p=556577&viewfull=1#post556577) along with the Mandenka and berber samples.

Zaghwa are more similar to Central-Sudanics, they're more WA shifted than Nilotes but have more recent Eurasian ancestry than both Nilotes and CSs -- I can't recall their ratio of SW-Asian/N.African

There's some GEDmatch samples of the Zaghwa and others from the NE African Hollfelder paper here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11784-New-High-Coverage-Northeast-African-genomes&p=317347&viewfull=1#post317347)
Unfortunately the quality of the samples weren't good enough for G25 cords... I only have some CS family members for reference, I'll post their nmonte results when I get home.



It would be very interesting to test your uncle, as he is a mix between Central Sudanics and seemingly Cushitic/Erythrean admixed Bantus. Not many people can a have a mix of such exotic ancestries - exotic as in from rarer and more numerically smaller meta-populations like Cushitic/Eyrthrean admixed Bantus and Central Sudanics, whose mix and ratios of ancestral streams are very unique and rare, even for the African landmass.

Indeed, I've been thinking of sending over more kits -- maybe this summer.

He's actually my first-cousin; my maternal aunt's son. He's just a lot older since my mom's sister was the oldest in a large family, my mother was the second youngest out of 7: )

Angoliga
06-22-2019, 04:38 AM
@NiloSaharan, thanks for that info!

Do you have any idea where the WC African ancestry of Central Sudanics comes from? and do all Central Sudanics have it?



Here's some crude nmonte runs:

Central Sudanic has a significantly higher amount of West-African ancestry as expected.

scaled, pen 0.001


UG_Aringa (Central-Sudanic [P. Aunt]),
fit: 2.249,
Dinka: 72.5,
Igbo: 17.5,
MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 10

UG_Kakwa (Eastern-Nilotic [Mother]),
fit: 3.204,
Dinka: 80,
MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 12.5,
Igbo: 7.5

UG_CS/ES (Myself),
fit: 2.4386,
Dinka: 77.5,
MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 11.67,
Igbo: 10.83

I was surprised at first to see the Igbo as the closest fit for WC African ancestry. It's not by a long-stretch but it's evident that the Niger-Congo pops furthest away from the Chad basin, the supposed epicenter of Central-Sudanic, have the worst fits -- with Gambians being the furthest:


scaled, pen 0.001

UG_Aringa (Central-Sudanic):



fit: 2.249,
Dinka: 72.5,
Igbo: 17.5,
MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 10

fit: 2.3186,
Dinka: 73.33,
Yoruba: 16.67,
MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 10

fit: 2.3234,
Dinka: 73.33,
Mende_Sierra_Leone: 19.17,
MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 7.5

fit: 2.5097,
Dinka: 73.33,
Mandenka: 17.5,
MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 9.17

fit: 2.5841,
Dinka: 73.33,
Gambian: 18.33,
MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 8.33

It's worth noting, these runs don't take into account the embedded more ancient W-African affinity within nilotic pops -- I think that's the WC African affinity we were initially looking for.
Dinka on it's own is ~15-30% West-African; maybe it's this affinity that's closer related to N\Westward Niger-Congo pops like the Mandenka and Gambians -- this shouldn't be conflated with more recent WA admixture like what we're seeing here for CS pops.

Since horners are ~half Ancient-East-African("nilotic") but lack this ancient West-African layer, their lineage of AEA ancestors must've been quite restricted to Northeastern-Africa.


...until the day we get our hands on an ancient AEA sample

Espoir
06-22-2019, 06:43 AM
I hate to take this personal, I really shouldn't be posting without consent but this demonstration is too relevant : )

It goes to shows how intertwined one's language and ethnicity can play out, this is a photo of my mother and her nephew (my first-cousin) whose father is Munyoro:

https://i.imgur.com/BsPcq5Y.png

I hope to get him and his siblings tested one day, it would be interesting to compare the Cushitic-like affinity


My very proud Kakwa speaking mother looks indistinguishably West-African (likely due to CS admixture?), whereas my Bantu-speaking half-Bunyoro cousin's partial Cushitic ancestry makes him pass more-so for an Erythrean speaker -- IMO anyway




I have no immediate reference on the topic but I find it hard to believe the Baganda kingdom was initiated as recent as the Luo migration. Maybe just in name?
From prior Bantu migrations, wasn't there highly organized pops in this region? ...I recall reading about highly advanced Iron working from sometime back
Buganda was formed around 14th century A.D. before it was clan led leadership. Typical to many Bantu speaking groups. Each clan had a leader(chief), what the first king did was uniting all clans to form kingdom of Buganda.

Yes, of course before Buganda, the region was united under one empire. Very centralized monarchy. When Bachwezi dynasty gave up. Luo speaking Babiito took over.

Angoliga
06-22-2019, 03:59 PM
Buganda was formed around 14th century A.D. before it was clan led leadership. Typical to many Bantu speaking groups. Each clan had a leader(chief), what the first king did was uniting all clans to form kingdom of Buganda.

Yes, of course before Buganda, the region was united under one empire. Very centralized monarchy. When Bachwezi dynasty gave up. Luo speaking Babiito took over.

- We're really going off topic here : )

Fascinating! -- that never dawned on me... in all honesty, I guess I was too ignorant to look that up in detail.

Isn't it ironic though, the Luo sparked these monarchies yet don't have an imposing monarchy of their own -- correct me if I'm mistaken

When I think of official kingdoms in the Great Lakes Region, it's always of Bantu speakers (Baganda, Toro, Basoga...). It impressed me that they had standing armies, ministers, extensive trade routes to the coast etc...

VytautusofAukstaitija
06-23-2019, 02:08 AM
- We're really going off topic here : )

Fascinating! -- that never dawned on me... in all honesty, I guess I was too ignorant to look that up in detail.

Isn't it ironic though, the Luo sparked these monarchies yet don't have an imposing monarchy of their own -- correct me if I'm mistaken

When I think of official kingdoms in the Great Lakes Region, it's always of Bantu speakers (Baganda, Toro, Basoga...). It impressed me that they had standing armies, ministers, extensive trade routes to the coast etc...

The Shilluk were similar. Post-Islamic state formation was taking place in the upper Nile and Jezira in the same broad time period as we see with the immigration of an elite castes of Nilotic herder/fishers into both the Great Lakes and another group from the Jezira/Bahr-el Arab/Jebel area into newly conquered and settled Arab lands in former Alodia, and the formation of tributary imperial states like the Funj. I think a Nilotic extraction for the Funj royalty is likely, especially seeing similarities with the Shilluk kingship, which I believe has parallels in other Luo peoples. Perhaps a pan-Luo monarchical system may be the basis in which the Luo seemed so well practiced in state formation (outside of the Kavirondo Luo). It may be that the invading Luo like the Babiito were less Kavirondo Luo (heavily Bantu) than ancestral Kavirondo (more Nilotic, or pure Nilotic). Also, all Luo ethnic groups living wholly outside of South Sudan except for the Kavirondo Luo live fairly close and many border Buganda. It can be any of them, or several of them in fact, or an ancestral and less differentiated group (or all of the above) of these extra-South Sudanese Luos that conquered the (likely) previously Inter-Lacustrine Pastoralist ruled kingdoms of the Great Lakes, which they then established themselves as ruling dynasts.

Concerning those nmonte runs: I am taken aback at how "Nilotic" Central Sudanics are, it's basically 3/4ths of their ancestry. I assumed they were closer to 50% Nilotic-like seeing some older oracles. And I was completely wrong about the Zaghawa. The model I actually saw had them peaking in a Saharan Sudanic component that was found in them and Furs, Masalits, and Tebou. Some west/central African migration must have happened in the central Sahara post-Nilo-Saharan exodus to account for this extra-west/central African admixture not present in other Nilo-Saharans.

Espoir
06-23-2019, 02:24 AM
- We're really going off topic here : )

Fascinating! -- that never dawned on me... in all honesty, I guess I was too ignorant to look that up in detail.

Isn't it ironic though, the Luo sparked these monarchies yet don't have an imposing monarchy of their own -- correct me if I'm mistaken

When I think of official kingdoms in the Great Lakes Region, it's always of Bantu speakers (Baganda, Toro, Basoga...). It impressed me that they had standing armies, ministers, extensive trade routes to the coast etc...

Right! We are way off topic!

As far as I know, thereís was no Luo Kingdom in UGanda. What happened is, Luos pretty much took over a falling apart empire, adopted the language and I guess system of leadership of the Chwezi.
History says that by the time of Luo invasion, chwezi has internal conflicts alongside droughts and plagues that were devastating their cattle. They didnít even fight.

Yeah! All kingdoms were of Bantu speaking people. Very sophiscated organization.Colonizers couldnít believe it, hence, creating ďthe Hamitic theoryĒ. All those monarchies were located between lake Victoria, Kyoga, Albert, Kivu, and Tanganyika. Beyond those areas, no organized kingdoms were there(in the great lakes region)

Angoliga
06-23-2019, 10:11 PM
The Shilluk were similar. Post-Islamic state formation was taking place in the upper Nile and Jezira in the same broad time period as we see with the immigration of an elite castes of Nilotic herder/fishers into both the Great Lakes and another group from the Jezira/Bahr-el Arab/Jebel area into newly conquered and settled Arab lands in former Alodia, and the formation of tributary imperial states like the Funj. I think a Nilotic extraction for the Funj royalty is likely, especially seeing similarities with the Shilluk kingship, which I believe has parallels in other Luo peoples. Perhaps a pan-Luo monarchical system may be the basis in which the Luo seemed so well practiced in state formation (outside of the Kavirondo Luo). It may be that the invading Luo like the Babiito were less Kavirondo Luo (heavily Bantu) than ancestral Kavirondo (more Nilotic, or pure Nilotic). Also, all Luo ethnic groups living wholly outside of South Sudan except for the Kavirondo Luo live fairly close and many border Buganda. It can be any of them, or several of them in fact, or an ancestral and less differentiated group (or all of the above) of these extra-South Sudanese Luos that conquered the (likely) previously Inter-Lacustrine Pastoralist ruled kingdoms of the Great Lakes, which they then established themselves as ruling dynasts.

Interesting, I haven't come across the term "Kavirondo" Luo -- you got me catching up on a lot of pre-history here.

The Luo expansion deserves a paper of it's own, they've gotta be the most aggressive Nilotic expansion in East-Africa, much more so than Eastern-Nilotic speakers and Central-Sudanics -- somebody call-up Obama ;)


Concerning those nmonte runs: I am taken aback at how "Nilotic" Central Sudanics are, it's basically 3/4ths of their ancestry. I assumed they were closer to 50% Nilotic-like seeing some older oracles. And I was completely wrong about the Zaghawa. The model I actually saw had them peaking in a Saharan Sudanic component that was found in them and Furs, Masalits, and Tebou. Some west/central African migration must have happened in the central Sahara post-Nilo-Saharan exodus to account for this extra-west/central African admixture not present in other Nilo-Saharans.

You're correct, they're AEA (nilotic-like) ancestry is more or less ~50% -- you gotta discount the ~20% West-African affinity in the Dinka.

Central-Sudanics like the Lugbara in the West-Nile region of Uganda have been extremely endogmatic, so much so that it's at times hard to tease their non-AEA affinity in admixture (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11947-Genomic-selection-in-Nilo-Saharan-and-Niger-Congo-speakers-(Pre-print)&p=285157&viewfull=1#post285157) runs.
It's basically Ugandan CSs Mbuti/HG-like ancestry ("Ubangian" -- best modeled as "MWI_Fingira_2500BP") that pulls them away from the more "Proto Central-Sudanic" ethnic groups like the Bulala in Chad (minus their likely recent minor Eurasian ancestry) -- more on that here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12461-Stab-at-African-population-history&p=305915&viewfull=1#post305915)



PuntDNAL K8 results, "UG_Aringa" is one of my paternal CS aunts:
https://i.imgur.com/sHitHqj.png

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Chad_Bulala 13.09
2 Alur 15.58
3 Souh_Sudan_Anuak 25.79
4 South_Sudanese 25.83
5 Cameroon_Mada 27.74
6 Ethiopian_Gumuz 34.44
7 Kenyan_Maasai 35.11
8 Kenyan_Bantu 36.04
9 DRC_Hema 39.36
10 Chad_Kaba 39.54
11 Kenyan_Luhya 43.57
12 SA_Nguni 46.12
13 SA_Pedi 47.17
14 SA_Bantu 47.83
15 DRC_Kongo 48.54
16 SA_Sotho/Tswana 49.34
17 Cameroon_Bamoun 49.37
18 Mali_Mandinka 49.46
19 Cameroon_Fang 50.42
20 SA_Xhosa 50.47

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 58.4% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 41.6% Kenyan_Bantu @ 3.61
2 66.4% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 33.6% Cameroon_Fang @ 4.51
3 63.3% Alur + 36.7% South_Sudanese @ 5.21
4 63.5% Alur + 36.5% Souh_Sudan_Anuak @ 5.78
5 65.8% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 34.2% DRC_Kongo @ 6.07
6 58.6% South_Sudanese + 41.4% Kenyan_Bantu @ 6.26
7 65.2% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 34.8% SA_Pedi @ 6.37
8 63.3% South_Sudanese + 36.7% Kenyan_Luhya @ 6.44
9 66.3% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 33.7% Cameroon_Bamoun @ 6.62
10 64.7% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 35.3% SA_Nguni @ 6.96
11 63.6% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 36.4% Kenyan_Luhya @ 7.82
12 71.7% Alur + 28.3% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 8.31
13 67.1% South_Sudanese + 32.9% Cameroon_Fang @ 8.4
14 65.6% South_Sudanese + 34.4% SA_Pedi @ 8.69
15 57.1% Chad_Bulala + 42.9% Alur @ 8.86
16 68% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 32% Nigeria_Hausa @ 9.3
17 65.2% South_Sudanese + 34.8% SA_Nguni @ 9.38
18 66.9% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 33.1% SA_Sotho/Tswana @ 9.61
19 61.6% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 38.4% Chad_Kaba @ 9.65
20 66.2% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 33.8% SA_Bantu @ 9.7

It's not the best fit but considering the distance and the fact their migration was at least >3kya, it's quite impressive to see the Bulala as a better fit than the Alur who are literraly an adjacent ethnic group in the West-Nile region of Uganda.



Right! We are way off topic!

As far as I know, there’s was no Luo Kingdom in UGanda. What happened is, Luos pretty much took over a falling apart empire, adopted the language and I guess system of leadership of the Chwezi.
History says that by the time of Luo invasion, chwezi has internal conflicts alongside droughts and plagues that were devastating their cattle. They didn’t even fight.

Wow, good timing on their part :)



Yeah! All kingdoms were of Bantu speaking people. Very sophiscated organization.Colonizers couldn’t believe it, hence, creating “the Hamitic theory”. All those monarchies were located between lake Victoria, Kyoga, Albert, Kivu, and Tanganyika. Beyond those areas, no organized kingdoms were there(in the great lakes region)

That's a prime reason I cringe whenever I hear the term "Hamitic", especially when applied to Ugandan Eastern-Nilotic speakers... I still hear older folk use the outdated term "Nilo-Hamites" when referring to Nilitoc tribes like the Kakwa and Karamajong.
Unfortunately, I think many Ugandans still don't get the underlying racial thesis of the term.