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Tįltos
03-01-2017, 02:59 AM
Ok J1-M267 experts I would like to hear from you! I was able to convince a first cousin of my mother on her direct paternal line to take a Y DNA test, and Family Finder. I do not have direct access to the results, but can see they came in as he matches my mother as 1st cousin, and my brother, and myself as second cousins. His 37 marker test reveals J1-M267!

At this point I have no further information. I have asked him to share with me who his closet matches are on the 37 marker test, and what is their terminal SNP.

I was told as a child that this line is Italian. I grew up, researched the paper trail- found that this line is from an isolated Arbėresh village. Apparently my grandfather's family had known this all along, and a relative in the village had indicated this line was there since the Middle Ages. The DNA shows a haplogroup that is more common in Southern Europe, but really does not show up much among Italians or Albanians. Correct?

From another post to cite the most common haplogroups found in the Arbėreshe, and Albanians.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4825-A-new-paper-comparing-current-Albanian-(Ghegs-Tosks)-Y-chromosome-with-Arbereshe


Gheg Albanians (119):
E1b-V13: 38%
J2b-M12: 25%
R1b-L51 (xP311): 12%
R1b-M269 (xL51): 4.2%
I2a (xM26,M223): 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians (104):
E1b-V13: 29%
J2b-M12: 12%
R1b-L51 (xP311): 8%
R1b-M269 (xL51): 6%
I2a (xM26,M223): 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%

Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy, 150):
E1b-V13: 13%
J2b-M12: 3%
R1b-L51 (xP311): NONE
R1b-M269 (xL51): 8%
I2a (xM26,M223): 10%
I2a-M223: 10%
R1a-M17: 10%
E1b (xV13): 13%
I1-M253: 5.3%

Agamemnon
03-01-2017, 03:22 AM
Has he joined the J1 FTDNA Project? If not, he really ought to, the degree of resolution for J1's phylogeny is equivalent to what we've achieved with R1b.

Tįltos
03-01-2017, 03:30 AM
Has he joined the J1 FTDNA Project? If not, he really ought to, the degree of resolution for J1's phylogeny is equivalent to what we've achieved with R1b.

I recommended that he join. I haven't even heard back from him yet. It's killing me lol!

Agamemnon
03-01-2017, 03:33 AM
I have recommended that he join. I haven't even heard back from him yet. It's killing me lol!

I could get a clear idea of which J1 branch he belongs to by looking at his STR values as well. Still, I'd say this certainly suggests that the Arbėresh have at least some local (South?) Italian ancestry, since J1 happens to be almost non-existent among Albanians (it's already quite rare in Europe, outside some isolated pockets).

Oh and BTW, welcome to the tribe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mro_2ZOn35I) ;)

RCO
03-01-2017, 02:10 PM
We have some European J1 clusters well established around Greece, Italy-Sardinia and only the STR or SNPs will tell more about the possible origins.

Larth
03-01-2017, 04:28 PM
Ok J1-M267 experts I would like to hear from you! I was able to convince a first cousin of my mother on her direct paternal line to take a Y DNA test, and Family Finder. I do not have direct access to the results, but can see they came in as he matches my mother as 1st cousin, and my brother, and myself as second cousins. His 37 marker test reveals J1-M267!

At this point I have no further information. I have asked him to share with me who his closet matches are on the 37 marker test, and what is their terminal SNP.

I was told as a child that this line is Italian. I grew up, researched the paper trail- found that this line is from an isolated Arbėresh village. Apparently my grandfather's family had known this all along, and a relative in the village had indicated this line was there since the Middle Ages. The DNA shows a haplogroup that is more common in Southern Europe, but really does not show up much among Italians or Albanians. Correct?

From another post to cite the most common haplogroups found in the Arbėreshe, and Albanians.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4825-A-new-paper-comparing-current-Albanian-(Ghegs-Tosks)-Y-chromosome-with-Arbereshe

I don't know anything about J1-M267 being it's not my haplogroup. All what I can say is that a part of Arbereshe didnt't arrive to Italy directly from Albania but they were Arvanites from Greece, and a good number of them were likely of partial Greek ancestry.

Morges
03-01-2017, 04:56 PM
Many Arbereshe came from Corone and other Southern Greeks communities.

Tįltos
03-01-2017, 05:56 PM
We have some European J1 clusters well established around Greece, Italy-Sardinia and only the STR or SNPs will tell more about the possible origins.

Good to know thank you! I'm still waiting to hear from him. Hopefully soon!

Tįltos
03-01-2017, 05:59 PM
Many Arbereshe came from Corone and other Southern Greeks communities.

Page 6 about the original villages given to Reres' soldiers. My line comes from one of those villages.
http://www.vatrarberesh.it/biblioteca/ebooks/italoalbanian.pdf

Skerdilaidas
03-01-2017, 06:04 PM
We actually just got a J1 result on our project, not public yet though and I have seen few other J1 Albanians at 23andme and some on the scientific studies. It's quite rare but found among Albanians, North and South.

Could you post his STAR markers, or pm them to me so I can compare them to our examples?

Morges
03-01-2017, 07:41 PM
Anyway according to Eupedia, Albania has 2% of J1.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Tįltos
03-01-2017, 08:57 PM
Anyway according to Eupedia, Albania has 2% of J1.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Thanks but I think that is I1? All the green colors are similar between J1, J2, and I1. :/

EDIT- I'm on my phone though so maybe I'm not getting a good view of it. I'll have to look again when I get home.

EDIT-Yep looking on my laptop now I can see it much better! It is J1. :)

Tįltos
03-05-2017, 07:48 PM
Question for the J1 experts again. :) If a man shows as being J-L829 at FTDNA is it because FTDNA placed him in that subclade based on his STRs? Or did they have to test that SNP?

So what I'm really asking is is it possible that my cousin is J-L829 even though he shows as just J-M267? Unfortunately I still have not heard from him, and another cousin just told me that he is not good with keeping in touch with anyone. So who knows when I will hear from him.

In the meantime I was seeing who we had in common on autosomal matches. One of our matches in common I have spoken to in the past has Arbereshe ancestry from the same village as us, but that is his mother's side. He happens to be Y DNA J-L829. I know it's a long shot but just curious if this is possible. This man's J-L829 line comes from Salerno.

RCO
03-05-2017, 10:41 PM
If the SNP has been positively tested it's green in a public project page and if it's red it's presumed. J1-L829 is typical and frequent in Italian J1's, so we can say it's a cluster found in Italian J1's.

Pegasusphm1
03-10-2017, 04:13 AM
Could you ask him to also join Italy J1 project, as well as the larger J1 Project.

Tįltos
03-14-2017, 10:25 PM
Wow! This really is an unexpected result! I just spoke to my cousin, and I am reviewing his result. He's unique in that he has no matches at the 37 marker level. He has one match at the 25 marker level at a GD of 2 with terminal SNP of ZS7213. Best I can tell he is from Saudi Arabia, and belongs to the Mutir tribe.

He has 10 pages of 12 marker matches all at a GD of 0. Most are Middle Eastern, and there are some Jewish ones too. Both Ashkenazi and Sephardic but only a handful, most are Arabic. Looking at the Haplogroup origins page there is one who lists Sicily and is J-M67, but I don't know that he will be in his actual matches. I remember from my brother's test I could not always match these up to his matches all the time.

Tįltos
03-15-2017, 04:58 AM
Okay I have put his STRs through the Nevgen predictor, and I got J1a2a1a2 P58 which is what I was thinking the beginning of his path was because of his 25 marker match's terminal SNP of J-ZS7213.

Nevgen is saying probability is 99.56, but the Fitness is only 30.1 and Fitness 2 is 0.61. Nevgen says this:

Warning: Values of fitness (or relative fitness) are rather small, so results are not too confident. It is possible that its haplogroup is not supported by current version of predictor, or haplotype really belong to some supported haplogroup, but it is rare or too distant branch, which is not sufficiently represented in samples used by predictor.

Perhaps my maternal grandfather's line will make a new branch? I would think it is distantly related to the Middle Eastern haplogroups, but how distant? When could the J1-M267 have entered into the Arberesh population?

Also another question for the J experts. My cousin has one 12 marker match at GD of 0 who is SNP J-M172. How is that?

Tįltos
03-19-2017, 04:37 AM
The J1 Project has placed my cousin under J-YSC76. I was thinking he would follow the path of J-P58=>J-L858 and then ?

I ordered the SNP pack today so we shall see what result that brings for him.

Any information that the J1 experts have about J-YSC76 would of course be most appreciated. :)

King
03-19-2017, 06:27 AM
Victar Mas, the admin of the J1 Project, personally believes YSC76 originated in Mesopotamia. However others like myself suspect it originated in the Levant due to its modern-day distribution. With J1-Z2324 (an upstream clade of YSC76) showing up in the Ain Ghazal site in Jordan in the Bronze Age, and the distribution of YSC234+ and YSC76+ in mind, YSC76 most likely originated somewhere between the Levant and Mesopotamia.

Agamemnon
03-28-2017, 01:06 PM
The J1 Project has placed my cousin under J-YSC76. I was thinking he would follow the path of J-P58=>J-L858 and then ?

I ordered the SNP pack today so we shall see what result that brings for him.

Any information that the J1 experts have about J-YSC76 would of course be most appreciated. :)

YSC76 is one of L858's most successful sub-branches, like most major branches of YSC234 its TMRCA is roughly 5,000 years old. Like King said, some claim that YSC76 (or even YSC234) arose in Mesopotamia, but this is unlikely for a plethora of reasons, first because Mesopotamia was a demographic sink during the late Chalcolithic-EBA period, second because YSC234's distribution and phylogeny strongly suggest an association with the earliest Semitic-speaking communities and finally because J1's absence in Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age remains from the Zagros and Armenia (regions often singled out as J1's cradle moreover) does a big disfavour to this theory.

Considering the fact that we have a J1-Z2324 (xYSC235) sample from 'Ayn Ghazal (I1705) dating back to the EBA IV/MBA II A period we can surmise that the Levant once was a J1(-P58?) diversity hotspot, I myself expected this sample to be YSC76 considering its relatively "young" age.

R.Rocca
03-28-2017, 01:28 PM
YSC76 is one of L858's most successful sub-branches, like most major branches of YSC234 its TMRCA is roughly 5,000 years old. Like King said, some claim that YSC76 (or even YSC234) arose in Mesopotamia, but this is unlikely for a plethora of reasons, first because Mesopotamia was a demographic sink during the late Chalcolithic-EBA period, second because YSC234's distribution and phylogeny strongly suggest an association with the earliest Semitic-speaking communities and finally because J1's absence in Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age remains from the Zagros and Armenia (regions often singled out as J1's cradle moreover) does a big disfavour to this theory.

Considering the fact that we have a J1-Z2324 (xYSC235) sample from 'Ayn Ghazal (I1705) dating back to the EBA IV/MBA II A period we can surmise that the Levant once was a J1(-P58?) diversity hotspot, I myself expected this sample to be YSC76 considering its relatively "young" age.

If not these locations, then what is your best education guess?

Agamemnon
03-28-2017, 02:08 PM
If not these locations, then what is your best education guess?

As far as YSC76 (as well as YSC234 and probably even Z2324) is of concern the Levant would be my best guess, specifically the southern Levant (the more arid areas around the Timna' valley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timna_Valley), which were lusher during the Chalcolithic). If not these areas, then northernmost parts of the Levant (congruent with the Hatay, Adana and Osmaniye provinces of modern-day Turkey). Mesopotamia remains a possibility of course, I just do not find it convincing at this stage, since there's no data pointing towards Mesopotamia.

Regarding J1 as a whole or, if we want to be more precise, YSC65, I think the Caucasus, the Iranian plateau and the Gulf refuge (AKA "Gulf Oasis") are the main contenders, perhaps even Arabia (who knows). I might well be wrong on this though, so don't take my word for it (technically-speaking, nothing prevents J1 from showing up in the Indian subcontinent, Central Asia or in Europe during the UP).

Power77
03-28-2017, 03:00 PM
As far as YSC76 (as well as YSC234 and probably even Z2324) is of concern the Levant would be my best guess, specifically the southern Levant (the more arid areas around the Timna' valley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timna_Valley), which were lusher during the Chalcolithic). If not these areas, then northernmost parts of the Levant (congruent with the Hatay, Adana and Osmaniye provinces of modern-day Turkey). Mesopotamia remains a possibility of course, I just do not find it convincing at this stage, since there's no data pointing towards Mesopotamia.

Regarding J1 as a whole or, if we want to be more precise, YSC65, I think the Caucasus, the Iranian plateau and the Gulf refuge (AKA "Gulf Oasis") are the main contenders, perhaps even Arabia (who knows). I might well be wrong on this though, so don't take my word for it (technically-speaking, nothing prevents J1 from showing up in the Indian subcontinent, Central Asia or in Europe during the UP).


Do you think J1 can still be found in Natufian remains:confused:?

Agamemnon
03-28-2017, 03:03 PM
Do you think J1 can still be found in Natufian remains:confused:?

I sincerely doubt that, in fact I never seriously expected J1 to show up in Natufian remains.

Power77
03-28-2017, 03:10 PM
I sincerely doubt that, in fact I never seriously expected J1 to show up in Natufian remains.

I don't see why would it be be impossible, especially if we consider the fact that the Natufians already carried West Eurasian mtDNA lineages such as J and H.

Agamemnon
03-28-2017, 03:21 PM
I don't see why would it be be impossible, especially if we consider the fact that the Natufians already carried West Eurasian mtDNA lineages such as J and H.

Erm, the only mtDNA lineage found in the Natufians so far IIRC is N1b, not J or H. Same thing for the PPNB samples from Jordan and Israel, no J and no H. Look, I don't think finding J1 in a Natufian sample is impossible, it is just very unlikely, if J1 does show up it'll probably be some sort of outlier (perhaps from the northernmost parts of the Natufian horizon), a dead end much like the two Natufian samples that carried haplogroup CT.

Power77
03-28-2017, 03:35 PM
Erm, the only mtDNA lineage found in the Natufians so far IIRC is N1b, not J or H. Same thing for the PPNB samples from Jordan and Israel, no J and no H. Look, I don't think finding J1 in a Natufian sample is impossible, it is just very unlikely, if J1 does show up it'll probably be some sort of outlier (perhaps from the northernmost parts of the Natufian horizon), a dead end much like the two Natufian samples that carried haplogroup CT.

Well, a certain Megalophias (in the thread below) claims that the Natufians carried mtDNA hgs J, V, H32, and R0a alongside N1b:\:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8477-aDNA-from-Natufian-Hunters-to-Bronze-Age-farmers-(14-000-3-400-BP)

Agamemnon
03-28-2017, 03:40 PM
Well, the thread below claims that the Natufians carried mtDNA hgs J, V H32, and R0a alongside N1b:\:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8477-aDNA-from-Natufian-Hunters-to-Bronze-Age-farmers-(14-000-3-400-BP)

My bad, I'd totally forgotten about that. Still, mtDNA haplogroups J and H are far more common in Anatolia_Neolithic-derived populations, so I doubt we can say this suggests J1 was present.

Power77
03-28-2017, 03:55 PM
My bad, I'd totally forgotten about that. Still, mtDNA haplogroups J and H are far more common in Anatolia_Neolithic-derived populations, so I doubt we can say this suggests J1 was present.

Of course, it is possible that those Natufian samples with mtDNA hgs J, V, H32 and R0a were not "ethnic Natufians" but rather "Neolithic Anatolian" visitors and/or merchants;).

Agamemnon
03-28-2017, 04:02 PM
Of course, it is possible that those Natufian samples with mtDNA hgs J, V, H32 and R0a were not "ethnic Natufians" but rather "Neolithic Anatolian" visitors and/or merchants;).

IMO the presence of several of the Natufian mtDNA lineages in Anatolia_Neolithic as well as in Iran_Neolithic hints at some sort of association with BE.

Power77
03-28-2017, 04:25 PM
IMO the presence of several of the Natufian mtDNA lineages in Anatolia_Neolithic as well as in Iran_Neolithic hints at some sort of association with BE.

You mean you think that BE could be linked to mtDNA hgs JT, R0 and HV:suspicious:?

Agamemnon
03-28-2017, 04:36 PM
You mean you think that BE could be linked to mtDNA hgs JT, R0 and HV:suspicious:?

All these groups have decent amounts of BE ancestry, so yes, a link of the sort would not exactly be far-fetched.

Power77
03-28-2017, 04:50 PM
All these groups have decent amounts of BE ancestry, so yes, a link of the sort would not exactly be far-fetched.

What would be the Y-DNA counterpart then:)?

Tįltos
04-05-2017, 03:14 AM
Okay J1 experts my cousin is J-ZS1711! I cannot believe how fast his results came in! Any information about this subclade or theory about how he found his way into the Arberesh are welcome. Thanks!

Tįltos
04-05-2017, 12:17 PM
I have looked closer at my cousin's results. He is also positive for J-FGC15941. I am wondering why they did not list this one as his terminal SNP, and put the J-ZS1711 instead? He is negative for J-ZS1644 which is below the J-FGC15941.

Is the J-ZS1711 equivalent to the J-FGC15941? Again I'm not as familiar with the J tree as the Q one. So any input is welcome thanks.

RCO
04-05-2017, 08:34 PM
You can find ZS1711 downstream of FGC15941 in the J1 tree
http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

Tįltos
04-06-2017, 02:04 AM
You can find ZS1711 downstream of FGC15941 in the J1 tree
http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

Thank you RCO! I have to learn that this J-M267 tree is my new holy book! When I look at the FTDNA haplotree visually it seems downstream.

When I look at his SNP map at FTDNA it shows a couple spots for the ZS1711 in Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, and Israel. I haven't seen any Italians that are J-ZS1711. I'm not sure there are any Albanians either. If I am wrong please let me know. If there are not, and my cousin is the first what to make of these results?

My mom, my brother, and myself all share an autosomal match to a man from Saudi Arabia at FTDNA. At 23andme my mother and I have a match that lists Palestinian Territory. We also have several matches to people from Turkey. I have always figured these matches share Albanian ancestry with us. They are all also distant matches so very old. I am wondering is this Y line a very old branch in Italy or little more recent? EDIT- Though I do realize that YSC0000076 is found in Italy, and the ZS1711 is downstream of that. So any other Italian J-ZS1711?

Agamemnon
04-06-2017, 06:51 PM
ZS1711's TMRCA is roughly 4,000 years old, this fits with the disintegration of Proto-NW Semitic, judging from its distribution it certainly seems to be associated with NW Semitic speakers, I would argue that its different branches are likely to have been widespread among the Canaanites, and so a Phoenician origin seems somewhat plausible when I look at the distribution in the Levant (mostly along the northern coast) and the Mediterranean, in turn this also makes a local Italian origin somewhat more likely than an arrival from Albania (despite the lack of Italian and Albanian ZS1711 individuals), perhaps even from Western Sicily.

Note that there is a major Jewish cluster under ZS1711, namely L823, Bennett Greenspan (the founder of FTDNA) belongs to this branch, so I'd vouch for a general association between ZS1711 and NW Semitic speakers and not a strict correlation with Phoenicians (so you can add Arameans to the list of potential ancestors).

Tįltos
04-07-2017, 04:13 AM
ZS1711's TMRCA is roughly 4,000 years old, this fits with the disintegration of Proto-NW Semitic, judging from its distribution it certainly seems to be associated with NW Semitic speakers, I would argue that its different branches are likely to have been widespread among the Canaanites, and so a Phoenician origin seems somewhat plausible when I look at the distribution in the Levant (mostly along the northern coast) and the Mediterranean, in turn this also makes a local Italian origin somewhat more likely than an arrival from Albania (despite the lack of Italian and Albanian ZS1711 individuals), perhaps even from Western Sicily.

Note that there is a major Jewish cluster under ZS1711, namely L823, Bennett Greenspan (the founder of FTDNA) belongs to this branch, so I'd vouch for a general association between ZS1711 and NW Semitic speakers and not a strict correlation with Phoenicians (so you can add Arameans to the list of potential ancestors).

Thank you for the detailed explanation Agamemnon! My cousin was negative for the L823 so he would really be in the way back machine with Bennett. :)

Yes the result made me figure that the Albanian origin is unlikely too for the direct line. Well oddly enough my father used to tell my mother all the time that the Jews had been in Italy (because she was half "Italian").

sam-iJ-ZS1727
09-19-2017, 04:25 PM
We have spoken in the past about the Arbereshe. The original poster should not worry if his first ancestor was a slave or not. Impossible to tell.

If you remember about my mother's direct paternal line in Italy....growing up I was told that line was Italian. I got into genealogy the paper trail showed me we came from an Arbereshe village. My grandfather's sister also confirmed this. I finally test a cousin from this Y line, and if you saw my thread here he is a J1! J-ZS1711 to be exact; downstream from J-P58.

I am not concerned that the original ancestor might have been a slave, or anything other than Italian or Albanian. I am intrigued by the results! One thing I do know is that my mother, brother, and I all still get autosomal matches to Albanians. We also get matches to people who just think they are Italian. My cousin who tested really needs a Big Y done because no one matches him beyond 25 STR markers. Others that have the J-ZS1711 SNP appear to be just Arabs (that I can find anyway). He is truly unique in his Y DNA result, and given the ethnic background it needs further investigating.

**The original poster needs to do further testing.

You Know, Saracens ( Berbers and Arabs ) conquered Sicily and lived there more than 200 years.
The history says that, after the defeat of the saracens against The normans, the muslim communities lived under their rule for a while, then rebelled, so the Norman King Frederick II deported about 20000 Muslims to Lucerna where they lived for 75 years. Lucerna was called Lucaera Saracenorum. It was Sacked in 1300 by Charles II of Naple. Many Saracens were killed, enslaved and sold, but many took refuge in ALBANIA...that is the link you are looking for with Albania

Tįltos
09-20-2017, 03:37 AM
You Know, Saracens ( Berbers and Arabs ) conquered Sicily and lived there more than 200 years.
The history says that, after the defeat of the saracens against The normans, the muslim communities lived under their rule for a while, then rebelled, so the Norman King Frederick II deported about 20000 Muslims to Lucerna where they lived for 75 years. Lucerna was called Lucaera Saracenorum. It was Sacked in 1300 by Charles II of Naple. Many Saracens were killed, enslaved and sold, but many took refuge in ALBANIA...that is the link you are looking for with Albania

Thanks that is an interesting link to explore. I did find one other J-ZS1711 that isn't Arabic. He is on the Y Full tree with one other ZS1711. Not sure how I didn't remember him? Maybe he was just added after I initially looked there a few months ago? Anyway all the others I had been looking in FTDNA projects. This man lists being from the United Kingdom. The other man is from Qatar. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS1711/ The TMRCA for this subclade is really far back; 4200 ybp.

There is family lore right from the family in Italy that our original Albanian last name was forgotten because a nobleman from this line went to England, and upon his return he was nick named the "Englishman". The last name then was taken from that. It has me wondering now if this ancestor might have left children in England? Really need a Big Y!

I am going to check out your suggestion though. My mother, brother, and myself all have a distant autosomal match to a man from Saudi Arabia. When we had spoken through email he indicated that he did not have many matches, and my family made up most of them. I always assumed that we are linked to him through Albania.

**Sam I'm going to move our posts over to my J1 thread. I don't want to go too far off topic from the OP.

sam-iJ-ZS1727
09-20-2017, 04:47 PM
I am gonna give you an advice : Don't look for your exact Haplogroup to find informations about your origins. I am of Haplogroup J-ZS1727 which is a subgroup of JZS1711 which is a Subgroup of the Father Group YSC76. So look to YSC76 to understand origins. It is the Haplogroup of the tribe called ''Judham'' which is believed to be the main population of the Edomite Territory south and East Canaan. Edomites were certainly part of the pupulation of the Cananite and after the defeat of cananites by the hebrews ( who consider them as their cousins) the edomites invaded parts of judea and became the rulers of judea ( king Herod, for example ) Edomites were accepted at jews after 3 generations of living in judea. And many of edomite jews are believed to have joined the eschkenazi kingdom of Khazar ( that explains that many jews from east europe belong to ysc76 ) edomites integrated the Nabatean civilisation, other remained bédouins, which are the judhama tribe who conquered, in islamic period egypt, north Africa, sicily, and Iberia.Results from Britain are the most important in number. You may have the explanation, you said that you were called the English, i think, that your ancestors, as refugees, part lived in Albania and an other part travelled to Britain, and your part of family returned to italy.

Tįltos
06-17-2019, 03:43 PM
I see new additions to the J-ZS1711 tree at Y-Full. A man from Bahrain, and there is also a man from Saudi Arabia. They are listed as J-ZS1711*. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS1711/

The other men I mentioned earlier from Qatar and the United Kingdom are now listed in Y Full as J-ZS1706. My cousin is negative for that SNP.

Dewsloth
06-01-2020, 06:14 AM
deleted pending further results :)

Kelmendasi
06-01-2020, 02:43 PM
Two aDNA samples from the paper by Haber et al. have been confirmed as J-ZS1711+ by user Principe https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20466-A-Genetic-History-of-the-Near-East-from-an-aDNA-Time-Course-Sampling-2020/page3:

SFI-44; Iron Age III, Beirut, Lebanon - J1-YSC76>ZS1711* (negative for Y16813/Z18216)

SFI-34; Iron Age III, Beirut, Lebanon - J1-YSC76>ZS1711>ZS5563*

Ramses
06-01-2020, 03:11 PM
Two aDNA samples from the paper by Haber et al. have been confirmed as J-ZS1711+ by user Principe https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20466-A-Genetic-History-of-the-Near-East-from-an-aDNA-Time-Course-Sampling-2020/page3:

SFI-44; Iron Age III, Beirut, Lebanon - J1-YSC76>ZS1711* (negative for Y16813/Z18216)

SFI-34; Iron Age III, Beirut, Lebanon - J1-YSC76>ZS1711>ZS5563*
That SFI-44 is inferred to be have about 70% Egyptian ancestry.

Kelmendasi
06-01-2020, 03:21 PM
That SFI-44 is inferred to be have about 70% Egyptian ancestry.
Yes, I believe it's stated that the mother (SFI-43) was fully Egyptian and that the father was of mixed Levantine and Egyptian ancestry.

Tįltos
06-03-2020, 05:18 PM
Two aDNA samples from the paper by Haber et al. have been confirmed as J-ZS1711+ by user Principe https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20466-A-Genetic-History-of-the-Near-East-from-an-aDNA-Time-Course-Sampling-2020/page3:

SFI-44; Iron Age III, Beirut, Lebanon - J1-YSC76>ZS1711* (negative for Y16813/Z18216)

SFI-34; Iron Age III, Beirut, Lebanon - J1-YSC76>ZS1711>ZS5563*

Thank you for putting this here! Thank you Principe for this too.

Kelmendasi, if you or any other J1 experts can give advice on further testing, outside of Big Y for now. I just checked my cousin's result. He has the ZS5563 SNP on his tree as showing in blue (downstream) the SNP that was not in his SNP pack that is upstream from ZS5563 is Z18216. It is Presumed negative. In the pack he was negative for ZS-1706, ZS5891, and ZS1766. They are under the presumed negative one. So could there still be a remote chance that he really is this ZS5563? There is now J-FT4107, FT8678, and SK1300 that all fall under this J-Z18216.

EDIT- I now see that Principe said that SFI-44 is negative for J-Z18216! https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20466-A-Genetic-History-of-the-Near-East-from-an-aDNA-Time-Course-Sampling-2020/page3:

Tįltos
06-03-2020, 05:33 PM
That SFI-44 is inferred to be have about 70% Egyptian ancestry.

Thanks for all that! Very cool! I have always been fascinated with Egypt.

My family that descends from the J1-ZS1711 line all have some ancestry comp admixture result that correlate. My cousin who tested this Y DNA has a result of 8% West Middle East at FTDNA. All his first cousins that are there including my mom get some trace West Middle East results. I'm not a fan of FTDNA's myOrigins though, and I'm looking forward to their update. However my mom, myself, and my daughter with 23andme's update get either Broadly Arab, Egyptian, & Levantine or Levantine too.

Kelmendasi
06-03-2020, 07:08 PM
Thank you for putting this here! Thank you Principe for this too.

Kelmendasi, if you or any other J1 experts can give advice on further testing, outside of Big Y for now. I just checked my cousin's result. He has the ZS5563 SNP on his tree as showing in blue (downstream) the SNP that was not in his SNP pack that is upstream from ZS5563 is Z18216. It is Presumed negative. In the pack he was negative for ZS-1706, ZS5891, and ZS1766. They are under the presumed negative one. So could there still be a remote chance that he really is this ZS5563? There is now J-FT4107, FT8678, and SK1300 that all fall under this J-Z18216.

EDIT- I now see that Principe said that SFI-44 is negative for J-Z18216! https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20466-A-Genetic-History-of-the-Near-East-from-an-aDNA-Time-Course-Sampling-2020/page3:
There is a chance that he could ZS5563+ given that he is negative for some of the other branches of Z18216 (ZS1707, ZS5891, and ZS1766), though as you mentioned there is also the chance that he belongs to the other Z18216 downstreams. Does he have any close matches?

Yeah, SFI-44 splits ZS1711 even further since the sample is Z18216-.

Tįltos
06-03-2020, 07:34 PM
There is a chance that he could ZS5563+ given that he is negative for some of the other branches of Z18216 (ZS1707, ZS5891, and ZS1766), though as you mentioned there is also the chance that he belongs to the other Z18216 downstreams. Does he have any close matches?

Yeah, SFI-44 splits ZS1711 even further since the sample is Z18216-.

He is only tested to 37 markers. He has no matches at that level. At the 25 marker level he gets a match at a GD of 2 but that man belongs to J-ZS7219. At the 12 marker level he of course has 34 pages of matches.

Kelmendasi
06-03-2020, 07:47 PM
He is only tested to 37 markers. He has no matches at that level. At the 25 marker level he gets a match at a GD of 2 but that man belongs to J-ZS7219. At the 12 marker level he of course has 34 pages of matches.
I see, so he has no real close matches. You could order one of the SNPs equivalent to ZS5563 on YSEQ for a cheap price (ZS5563 itself isn't available), however this may not be all that efficient as he could test negative for one equivalent SNP, but positive for another.

Big Y, or any other NGS test, is the most efficient and useful test when it comes to cases such as this.

Tįltos
06-03-2020, 08:19 PM
I see, so he has no real close matches. You could order one of the SNPs equivalent to ZS5563 on YSEQ for a cheap price (ZS5563 itself isn't available), however this may not be all that efficient as he could test negative for one equivalent SNP, but positive for another.

Big Y, or any other NGS test, is the most efficient and useful test when it comes to cases such as this.

Thank you for all of your input! Big Y will be best for him then.