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razyn
03-03-2017, 01:25 PM
I don't know that this is the oldest tested example, but a new paper out today locates an Early Sarmatian (7th to 5th century BCE) example of Z2103. Discussion of the paper has its own thread, I posted a comment on it, but it occurs to me that Z2103 guys might want to have their own chat.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9874-Ancestry-and-demography-and-descendants-of-Iron-Age-nomads-of-the-Eurasian-Steppe&p=217469&viewfull=1#post217469

Mis
03-03-2017, 04:35 PM
I0575 is a line of Bashkir?

Joe B
03-03-2017, 04:52 PM
I don't know that this is the oldest tested example, but a new paper out today locates an Early Sarmatian (7th to 5th century BCE) example of Z2103. Discussion of the paper has its own thread, I posted a comment on it, but it occurs to me that Z2103 guys might want to have their own chat.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9874-Ancestry-and-demography-and-descendants-of-Iron-Age-nomads-of-the-Eurasian-Steppe&p=217469&viewfull=1#post217469 5th or 6th century BCE hardly qualifies as the oldest R1b-Z2103 haplotypes. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/background

A preliminary report from Vladimir Tagankin of YFull indicates that
I0563 is R-S23201 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-S23201/)*
I0575 is roughly R-Y21707 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y21707/)* (but A12363-)
I0577 is roughly R-YP1456 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP1456/)* (but Y29558-)
IS2 is Q-L332 (https://yfull.com/tree/Q-L332/)*
This paper confirms that R1b-KMS67 has been roaming the Eurasian steppe for a long time. Today, R1b-KMS67 is found in the Bashkir population. Starting to see R1b-KMS67 Iraq although they are A12363+.
R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2109>KMS67

ADW_1981
03-03-2017, 05:26 PM
I0575 is a line of Bashkir?

The sample is Sarmatian and older than Bashkir or Turkic language. Either some of the Iranic speakers were Z2103 to begin with, or the lineage is a remnant of an earlier IE speaker that was absorbed by the far more common R1a-Z93 lineages.

razyn
03-03-2017, 06:40 PM
5th or 6th century BCE hardly qualifies as the oldest R1b-Z2103 haplotypes. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/background

OK. But the other SNP they identified in the sample, S20902/Z8130, doesn't appear (to me) to be named on the elaborate chart in that project. The mutation is at 18383837, C to T. YBrowse lists it but calls it something bad, like "not qualified;" it seems to be in the P6_Gap area. Maybe that's an extinct Z2103 line, or just a recurrent SNP -- whatever. This Sarmatian group is in the Ural River watershed, looks like it's on the Chagan or a nearby tributary -- next oblast (large administrative region) to the east of Samara oblast, where a bunch of much earlier samples were found.

Joe B
03-03-2017, 07:56 PM
OK. But the other SNP they identified in the sample, S20902/Z8130, doesn't appear (to me) to be named on the elaborate chart in that project. The mutation is at 18383837, C to T. YBrowse lists it but calls it something bad, like "not qualified;" it seems to be in the P6_Gap area. Maybe that's an extinct Z2103 line, or just a recurrent SNP -- whatever. This Sarmatian group is in the Ural River watershed, looks like it's on the Chagan or a nearby tributary -- next oblast (large administrative region) to the east of Samara oblast, where a bunch of much earlier samples were found.S20902/Z8130 or 18383837, C to T is on the same phylogenetic level as Z2103. I just confirmed that on YFull. They gave S20902/Z8130 (18383837, C to T) 5 stars for my sample.
Got to believe that the authors of this paper had access to the genomes of all these individuals.
“Individual I0575 (Sarmatian) belonged to haplogroup R1b1a2a2, and was thus related to the dominant Ychromosome lineage of the Yamnaya (Pit Grave) males from Samara37 (~3000BCE).”

Joe B
03-05-2017, 08:23 PM
The R1b-KMS67 Phylogenetic Tree has been updated to include the I0575 (Sarmatian) iron age sample. There is certainly is an interesting star pattern emanating from the R1b-Z2108, CTS1842/Z2109 node that YFull estimates is 6100 ybp. Not that different from the 6200 formed, 6100 TMRCA for the R1b-Z2103 haplogroup. The R1b-KMS67 Phylogenetic Tree can be found at the R1b Basal Subclades project. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/background Second graphic down.
Thanks again smal.

Megalophias
03-06-2017, 04:39 PM
The R1b-KMS67 Phylogenetic Tree has been updated to include the I0575 (Sarmatian) iron age sample. There is certainly is an interesting star pattern emanating from the R1b-Z2108, CTS1842/Z2109 node that YFull estimates is 6100 ybp. Not that different from the 6200 formed, 6100 TMRCA for the R1b-Z2103 haplogroup.
I don't think those dates are accurate. There are umpteen mutations between nodes with the same TMRCA.

Joe B
03-06-2017, 08:46 PM
I don't think those dates are accurate. There are umpteen mutations between nodes with the same TMRCA.No doubt the YFull age estimates are just that, estimates. The estimate is actually from the R1b-Z2110/CTS7822 level. What are the mutations between nodes that you are seeing? Both the R1b Basal Subclades phylogenetic tree and YFull are in agreement on the phylogeny.
YFull has four branches under Z2108, Z2109/CTS1843, the R1b Basal Subclades project has one more. This looks like a star pattern with only two SNPs at that level. I'm open to other interpretations or descriptions.



YFull
R-Z2108 Z2109/CTS1843 * Z2108
. R-Z2108*
. R-Y20993 Y20993 * KMS88 * KMS62+5 SNPs
R-Y14512 Y14511 * Y14512 * Y14515+9 SNPs
. R-Z2110 S12460 * Z2110/CTS7822 * S17864



R1b Basal Subclades project tree
Z2109/CTS1843, Z2108
CTS310, CTS6292, L147.1, 44 SNPs
SK2087, Y:7745011 (A/T)
KMS67, A12348
CTS3937/M9805, PF6018, Y14414, Y14415, Y14416, Y14420, Y14421, Y14422, Y14423, Y14511, Y14512, Y14513, Y14514, Y14515, 4 SNPs
CTS7822/Z2110, S17864, S12460

Megalophias
03-06-2017, 09:05 PM
I wasn't doubting the strong expansion at Z2108 level (and more generally around Z2103 and its subclades) but the way that L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110 is compressed into the span of a century rather than spread out over a millennium or so.

Mis
05-22-2017, 08:28 AM
Grave marked OS 3 belongs to Z2103?
https://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/20640/