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View Full Version : DF19 (P312>DF19) & Subclades L644, Z302, etc.



TigerMW
06-03-2013, 04:04 PM
DF19 is another branch of P312 that is parallel to U152, L21, DF27 and L238. This tree chart shows where it fits in.
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-P312-Tree

DF19 doesn't get much attention so I'm opening up this thread for it. It is definitely nothing to sneeze at, though, and even has it's own SNP based lineages starting to unfold, Z302 and L644 being the first.

I found these quotes on WFN from Goldenhind from 2011 and 2013.

The same people who identified Z196 in the data of the 1000 Genomes Project have found another SNP below P312 which is independent of all other SNPs currently known there: it has been named DF19. It was found in three P312* individuals- two from Britain and one from central Europe (nfd). They estimate about 3 to 11 percent of P312(XL21,U152,L176.2) will be positive for it. FTDNA is already offering testing for it, and a number of orders have been placed for it. However all but one from France have surnames from the British Isles, so I am expecting a repeat of the scenario with L21, where the pundits try to assign an origin for it in the British Isles, based on the early testing results. We need some testing from those with continental ancestry. I believe DF19 wasn't found in any of the 1000 Genomes individuals of Iberian ancestry, so it may be primarily nothern European.
...
Two out of three of the 1000 Genomes samples in which DF19 was initially found were from Britain, so it seems unlikely that it will be primarily continental. However I hope the continental presence will be sufficient to prevent some of the absurd positions taken L21 was first discovered.

Here are the DF19+ confirmed folks that I know of in our DNA projects.



fB1536 Bodamer DF19+ L644- pd19- uas Germany
f121522 Grant DF19+ L644- pd19- uas Scotland, Grampian, Banffshire, Kirkmichael, Strathavon
f222038 Gunn DF19+ pd19- uas zzzUnkOrigin
f76830 Martin DF19+ L644- pd19- uas Ireland, Connacht, Co. Sligo, Carrickglass (Geevagh)
f128845 Merrill DF19+ pd19- uas England, West Midlands, Warwickshire
f139938 Reichel DF19+ pd19- uas Germany
fN46732 Van Gestel DF19+ pd19- uas Netherlands, Noord-Brabant, Berlicum
f228727 Zapotoczny DF19+ pd19- uas Poland
f155152 Gardner DF19+ L644- Z302- L719- pd19-1010 Ireland, Ulster, Co. Down,
f182243 Holland DF19+ L644- pd19-1010 England, South East, Buckinghamshire, Waddesdon
fN43634 Faulconer DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- 4c pd19-1011 England, South East, Sussex
f202649 Findley DF19+ L644- pd19-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f185462 Gordon L1200+ pd19-1199-A zzzUnkOrigin
f157462 Phillips L1200+ pd19-1199-A Scotland, Grampian, Aberdeenshire, Slains
f230076 Ranney L1200+ pd19-1199-A Scotland
f93184 Ranney L1200+ L1063+ pd19-1199-A Scotland
f112728 Renny L1200+ pd19-1199-A Scotland
f93670 Stiles L1199+ L1200- pd19-1199-A England
fN11543 Persson(Kalmar) DF19+ L644- Z302- pd19-1423 Sweden, Kalmar län
f8585 Fletcher DF19+ pd19-1423-A zzzUnkOrigin
fN15110 Henrotte DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- L719- pd19-1523 Belgium, Wallonia, Liège, Bassenge, Glons)
f173353 Munday L719+ L147.3- L253- pd19-1523 England, South East, Buckinghamshire
f95901 Aucock L644+ pd19-1523-644- uas England, South East, East Sussex, Willington
f87210 Follis L644+ pd19-1523-644- uas Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan
fE13932 zzzUnknown L644+ pd19-1523-644- uas Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
f55699 Andrew R1b-P312>DF19>L644+ L644+ pd19-1523-644-A Scotland
fE4870 Marwede L644+ pd19-1523-644-A Germany, Lower Saxony, Celle, Hermannsburg
f86044 Verelst L644+ L1063+ pd19-1523-644-B Belgium, Antwerp, Lier
f249457 White L644+ pd19-1523-644-B Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone
f181628 Sutherland L644+ pd19-1523-644-C Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Wick
f48438 Wetmore L644+ pd19-1523-644-C England
f27045 White L644+ P25RecLOH pd19-1523-644-C Ireland, Connacht, Co. Sligo, Drumcliff
f197215 Mugford DF19+ pd19-1523-A England, South West, Devonshire, Bideford
f202404 JonesL644- pd19-1523-C England
f96908 Miller DF19+ L644- Z302- L719- pd19-1523-D Germany
fN74432 Mouer DF19+ L644- pd19-1523-D Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
f208772 Müller DF19+ pd19-1523-D Germany
f199000 SwanDF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- pd19-1523-D England
f148046 Goulait DF19+ L644- Z302- pd19-1523-E France
f70159 Miller DF19+ L644- pd19-1523-E zzzUnkOrigin
f196999 zzzUnknown DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- L719- pd19-1523-E Czech Republic
f180696 Roberts Z302+ pd19-302- uas Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork, Ballymodan
f214701 Chevalier Z302+ pd19-302-1012 France
f166103 Garrett Z302+ pd19-302-1012 Ireland
f190419 Rose Z302+ pd19-302-1012 Scotland, Grampian, Morayshire, Forres

TigerMW
06-03-2013, 04:13 PM
Wim V is a key advocate for DF19. He thinks there are DF19+ folks to be found in the Netherlands and Belgium. This was a direct email but it was sent out to multiple people and does not appear to be anything controversial or confidential so I'll quote from it.

...
here's the reply I got from the researchers in Leuven, who are working on the large collection of Flemish / Brabant male DNA samples, and who recently published the Larmuseau et al paper.

They're already looking into a further experimental SNP-dissection for the P312 subclades that hadn't been tested yet, including DF19! Apparently only 10 of their 84 samples that remained P312* have the typical off-modal value DYS385b = 15, so my modest estimate would be that about 15 of those 84 samples may turn out to be DF19+ in the end (because in our dataset about 2/3 of all DF19+ samples have this value), unless there's a regional tendency for DF19+ samples to deviate more frequently from this off-modal value. Either way we should find out in the (hopefully near) future!


----- Forwarded Message ----- Maarten Larmuseau

...
We are indeed busy with updating the 'scientific' phylogeny of the R1b-lineage based on whole genome sequencing data. We have planned a further SNP-dissection for our R1b-samples from Flanders and North Brabant. As such we will be able quite soon to publish the data you are requesting.

To answer your question about the motifs in our R-P312* samples: Only 10 out of 84 samples have DYS385b = 15; but no one has DYS576 <= 17 or DYS458 = 16 (as you also can see in our data published in www.yhrd.org). I hope this information can give you already some ideas about the occurrence of certain sub-haplogroups in Flanders. Of course we have to note that we never look to these repeat numbers to make predictions about certain sub-haplogroups as this is absolutely not consistent.


Side note on predicting DF27: DF19 does not look to be very southern European. It could impact the percentage of P312+ U152- L21- in northern Europe that ends up being DF27+. In other words, DF19 could be big enough to reduce the expected percentage of DF27+ out of those who haven't tested for it yet, at least in England and NW Europe. The jury is out, but it is possible that additional DF19 STR signatures will be found in NW Europe.

R.Rocca
06-03-2013, 06:46 PM
Wim V is a key advocate for DF19. He thinks there are DF19+ folks to be found in the Netherlands and Belgium. This was a direct email but it was sent out to multiple people and does not appear to be anything controversial or confidential so I'll quote from it.


----- Forwarded Message ----- Maarten Larmuseau


Side note on predicting DF27: DF19 does not look to be very southern European. It could impact the percentage of P312+ U152- L21- in northern Europe that ends up being DF27+. In other words, DF19 could be big enough to reduce the expected percentage of DF27+ out of those who haven't tested for it yet, at least in England and NW Europe. The jury is out, but it is possible that additional DF19 STR signatures will be found in NW Europe.

So I think our "guestimate" we discussed for the split between DF19+, DF27* and P312** is probably off by a percentage point or so, but nothing earth shattering.

TigerMW
08-08-2013, 09:46 PM
I had an inquiry from the Grant's and I found a whole series of Grant's that are great DF19 suspects so I'm adding them to the spreadsheet. Hopefully, a few more of them test for DF19 and join the P312 project, assuming they come up DF19+.

RCAndrew
08-21-2013, 08:18 PM
So, have they come up with any new SNP's to test for being us DF19+/L644+?

alan
08-31-2013, 04:33 PM
I am late to this topic but am actually impressed by the number of Europeans in the list, largely from Germany, France and the Low Countries. What jumps out at me strongly is the non-native Gaelic nature of almost all the Scottish and Irish names. They all seem to be names associated with high Medieval settlers often put under the catch-all 'Normans' bracket. I think this clade was a very late arriver there. I get the impression that this clade's isles history could be related to historic period settlers including Normans. I dont know before that. I suspect a Germanic link maybe with the Franks.


DF19 is another branch of P312 that is parallel to U152, L21, DF27 and L238. This tree chart shows where it fits in.
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-P312-Tree

DF19 doesn't get much attention so I'm opening up this thread for it. It is definitely nothing to sneeze at, though, and even has it's own SNP based lineages starting to unfold, Z302 and L644 being the first.

I found these quotes on WFN from Goldenhind from 2011 and 2013.


Here are the DF19+ confirmed folks that I know of in our DNA projects.



fB1536 Bodamer DF19+ L644- pd19- uas Germany
f121522 Grant DF19+ L644- pd19- uas Scotland, Grampian, Banffshire, Kirkmichael, Strathavon
f222038 Gunn DF19+ pd19- uas zzzUnkOrigin
f76830 Martin DF19+ L644- pd19- uas Ireland, Connacht, Co. Sligo, Carrickglass (Geevagh)
f128845 Merrill DF19+ pd19- uas England, West Midlands, Warwickshire
f139938 Reichel DF19+ pd19- uas Germany
fN46732 Van Gestel DF19+ pd19- uas Netherlands, Noord-Brabant, Berlicum
f228727 Zapotoczny DF19+ pd19- uas Poland
f155152 Gardner DF19+ L644- Z302- L719- pd19-1010 Ireland, Ulster, Co. Down,
f182243 Holland DF19+ L644- pd19-1010 England, South East, Buckinghamshire, Waddesdon
fN43634 Faulconer DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- 4c pd19-1011 England, South East, Sussex
f202649 Findley DF19+ L644- pd19-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f185462 Gordon L1200+ pd19-1199-A zzzUnkOrigin
f157462 Phillips L1200+ pd19-1199-A Scotland, Grampian, Aberdeenshire, Slains
f230076 Ranney L1200+ pd19-1199-A Scotland
f93184 Ranney L1200+ L1063+ pd19-1199-A Scotland
f112728 Renny L1200+ pd19-1199-A Scotland
f93670 Stiles L1199+ L1200- pd19-1199-A England
fN11543 Persson(Kalmar) DF19+ L644- Z302- pd19-1423 Sweden, Kalmar län
f8585 Fletcher DF19+ pd19-1423-A zzzUnkOrigin
fN15110 Henrotte DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- L719- pd19-1523 Belgium, Wallonia, Liège, Bassenge, Glons)
f173353 Munday L719+ L147.3- L253- pd19-1523 England, South East, Buckinghamshire
f95901 Aucock L644+ pd19-1523-644- uas England, South East, East Sussex, Willington
f87210 Follis L644+ pd19-1523-644- uas Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan
fE13932 zzzUnknown L644+ pd19-1523-644- uas Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
f55699 Andrew R1b-P312>DF19>L644+ L644+ pd19-1523-644-A Scotland
fE4870 Marwede L644+ pd19-1523-644-A Germany, Lower Saxony, Celle, Hermannsburg
f86044 Verelst L644+ L1063+ pd19-1523-644-B Belgium, Antwerp, Lier
f249457 White L644+ pd19-1523-644-B Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone
f181628 Sutherland L644+ pd19-1523-644-C Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Wick
f48438 Wetmore L644+ pd19-1523-644-C England
f27045 White L644+ P25RecLOH pd19-1523-644-C Ireland, Connacht, Co. Sligo, Drumcliff
f197215 Mugford DF19+ pd19-1523-A England, South West, Devonshire, Bideford
f202404 JonesL644- pd19-1523-C England
f96908 Miller DF19+ L644- Z302- L719- pd19-1523-D Germany
fN74432 Mouer DF19+ L644- pd19-1523-D Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
f208772 Müller DF19+ pd19-1523-D Germany
f199000 SwanDF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- pd19-1523-D England
f148046 Goulait DF19+ L644- Z302- pd19-1523-E France
f70159 Miller DF19+ L644- pd19-1523-E zzzUnkOrigin
f196999 zzzUnknown DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- L719- pd19-1523-E Czech Republic
f180696 Roberts Z302+ pd19-302- uas Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork, Ballymodan
f214701 Chevalier Z302+ pd19-302-1012 France
f166103 Garrett Z302+ pd19-302-1012 Ireland
f190419 Rose Z302+ pd19-302-1012 Scotland, Grampian, Morayshire, Forres

Dubhthach
09-17-2013, 03:43 PM
I see we have a new DF88+ result in the Ireland project. Martin (76830), he's confirmed as DF19+, DF88+, L644-

DF88 from what I read is above L644. Not sure what its' status is with regards to other DF19 subclades.

-Paul
(DF41+)

marosjor
09-17-2013, 03:53 PM
Ranny #93184 in the Ireland yDNA Project is also DF19+, DF88+, L644-.

Regards,
Margaret

TigerMW
09-26-2013, 04:12 AM
Wim is kind of the guru of DF19. DF88 might unite a couple of DF19's subclades. It looks like Wim thinks it is of some kind of Germanic origin.


What we already know is that DF88 is positioned downstream from DF19 and upstream from L644, but its position relative to L719 and Z302 remains to be determined. As an educated guess I would predict that DF88 originated in northern Europe (Scandinavia or northern Germany) about 2000 years ago, or perhaps a bit earlier than that.It would have been distributed beyond these regions by Germanic peoples, and by e.g. their Viking and Norman descendants in later centuries. Let's wait and see what more we can learn when all pending test results come in! http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-P312-Project/conversations/messages/6129

TigerMW
10-07-2013, 01:34 PM
Here is another update from George R, the chief SNP testing advocate for DF19 testing.. (He's great!)


L644, L719, L1199/L1200 were all found first in WTY (Walk-through-the-Y) Testing: L644+ (White), L719+ (Munday), L1199+/L1200+ (Ranney).

I suspect we will also find more SNPs below DF88+, parallel and maybe even above the known DF19+ subclades: L644, L719, L1199/L1200

Our DF19+ group is now about 60 members, plus many more identified (including the Scottish Clan Grant Chief's line ~ three already confirmed, all FTDNA Clan Grant Project Admins/Co-Admins, for this huge surname group).

Our DF19+ YDNA tree has also grown (see proposed ISOGG update, three e-mails below). We are just waiting on one L719+ result before I submit it.

It appears that Z302+ and DF88+ occurred shortly after DF19+ given their huge diversity of STR markers: YDNA67/111. It will be interesting to see if we find anyone who has both DF88- and Z302-

Of the 31 members testing DF88, our Z302+ came out DF88- (as expected), and 15 are DF88+ (now only 15 more test results are pending).

Another 25 are covered by others who have already tested for their subclades. Only 4 DF19+ members of P312+ project have yet to submit a test for DF88, who are not covered by others, so we will have great coverage for DF88+, to help date it.

Denmark or just below, along the North Coast of Germany is where we now believe DF19, DF88 and Z302 may have arisen (where our Ancestral Fathers were born), which explains why we have many with Norman names or Ancestry (Danish Viking + Frank/Celt) and people from Normandy in both DF88 & Z302 groups, as well as our Swede.

rms2
10-08-2013, 12:21 AM
I don't know. They do have two with ancestry in Normandy: Goulet, kit 148046, and Chevalier, kit 214701, and both of them ought to join the Normandy Y-DNA Project. I'm not sure what other "Norman names" he was talking about. He may be assuming that an origin in Normandy equals Scandinavian ancestry, and that is certainly not a safe assumption. There are a few from Germany, one from the Netherlands, and two from Belgium, at least judging from the P312 Project. But otherwise DF19 seems spread pretty far and wide. One Swede I don't think means much.

It's interesting, anyway.

tjlowery87
11-01-2013, 03:28 PM
it does look like it might have more of a Germanic spread

Timothy
11-01-2013, 05:11 PM
FYI:
Ordered a Full Genomes Y test today:
Granger - DF19+ DF88+ and L1199-, L1200-, Z302- (still pending: L644 and L719, but is DYS385 11-14, not 11-15, so assume will be negative results). Of French ancestry, but ancestor suspected to be English, marrying into Acadian family. Close STR match to Foster's of England.

tjlowery87
11-01-2013, 11:57 PM
the English part makes sense with the Germanic theory

faulconer
11-20-2013, 09:49 PM
I am DF19+ DF88+ L1199- L1200- Z302- L719- L644- within the 464XQuadC+ group. I ordered the Big Y the other day and will be sharing my results with any who are interested.

I do think that many English DF19+ came over during the Norman conquest though I do not believe that DF19 represents a large percentage of the Normans. From the suspected origin of this SNP, I would imagine that the Norman conquest was not the only time DF19+ men came to the isles. Can't wait to find out!

Kentface
12-05-2013, 01:20 PM
I've just registered with this forum to say that my recent Y DNA results by 'Scotland's DNA' showed that my paternal line is positive for DF19. That line, surname Kent, I can trace back to a William in the 17th century and for much of the time since then, the family have been lightermen and watermen on the Thames, as documented in the relevant Guild's records.
I will be interested to see how this story develops

castillianscot
12-21-2013, 09:01 AM
Kentface, you should join P312+ Project in FTDNA, where we have over 65 DF19+ members, and two P312+ Co-Administrators (incl. myself) working to help DF19+ members navigate STR/SNP testing (project pages show SNPs and STRs of Members), and where we work to get more SNPs added to our part of YDNA tree through official ISOGG.

To Join P312+ group, go to: http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join-request.aspx?group=R-P312_and_Subclades&vGroup=atlantic-r1b1c

I just sent my Chromo2 positive results to Mike (Mikewww ~ Anthrogenica Moderator, P312+ Project Administrator) to post in P312+ Yahoo Forum, it would be interesting to compare my results to yours, and to his L21+ group. He explains this in: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1403-L21-Chromo2-tracking-and-results/page7

To Join P312+ Yahoo Groups go to: http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-P312-Project/info (click purple box "Join Group")

razyn
02-23-2014, 11:57 PM
The newly released spreadsheet of 2,000 (anonymized) sample Chromo2 test results is here:
https://www.britainsdna.com/download/C2_2000.zip

There are 21 identified DF19 (i.e. S232) samples in columns AGK-AHE, inclusive. Since they are next to some of my DF27 guys, I noted a number of their Chromo2 identified mutations, as I was scanning up and down the spreadsheet over the weekend. Want me to post those, or would that duplicate some more painstaking work one of you may be doing, that I know not of?

kevin.miller
03-02-2014, 01:06 PM
Awaiting my Big-Y test results too. Be glad to share all info when results from Batch 544 and Batch 545 come in. Thanks to George Ranney for coordinating 5 of us Millers to do the Big-Y test. We are hoping the new SNPs will show where we separate from Dörrenbach Germany in today's Saarland region to landing in Philadelphia PA in 1739 and then scattering to Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina.

I am positive for DF19, DF88 and negative for Z302, L644, L719.

RCAndrew
03-18-2014, 06:29 PM
Received my Big Y results on Monday, here is how they were posted in FTDNA:

Your Haplogroup: R-P312

Tests Taken :
M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, P312+, L15+, L150+, L151+, L16+, L11+, L138+, L141+, DF19+, L644+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, M42+, M45+, M526+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, SRY2627-, U152-, M65-, M37-, M222-, M228.2-, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, L4-, Z302-, L144-, L165-, L193-, L196-, L20-, L21-, L226-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, L176.2-, L165-, L2-, L20-, L21-, M153-, M65-, P66-

Wim_DF19
03-19-2014, 05:27 PM
Received my Big Y results on Monday

We've already analysed your results and they look great! Now we are waiting for the Big-Y reports for all remaining DF19+ samples (about 30 in total), to be able to draw general, final conclusions. What we can already say is that you (and probably all other L644+ samples) belong to a new subclade below DF19 and DF88, which is characterised by the S4281 mutation that was recently also found in the Chromo2 test. Downstream from S4281 your sub-subclade is S4268, and downstream from that you have the S10076, S10771 and S17075 mutations, which will probably also be present in (all?) other L644+ samples. As soon as we receive the Big-Y data for the other DF19+ samples we should be able to tell more about these new likely sub-subclades below DF19 and DF88, about their hierarchy, and how exactly they relate to the previously known SNPs that have already been placed onto the ISOGG haplotree (such as DF88, L644, L719, L1199, etc). Hopefully we'll be able to collect enough information to reliably position those new SNPs onto the haplotree very soon.

Overall the quality of the data seems to be quite good for the Big-Y results we've seen so far, for three DF19+ DF88+ samples: at this point they share 19 novel SNPs that seem to be specific for the DF19 subclade (i.e. not found in any of the DF19- samples). SNPs of this category are either slightly older than DF19 and/or DF88, or they originated at a time point between DF19 and the last common ancestor that was shared by the 3 investigated lineages (in any case before the origin of L644, because from these 3 samples only your sample is positive for that SNP). In addition to that, each sample has at least 20 - 30 novel SNPs that are "private" (i.e. only found in that specific sample, although this number can still decrease when they are compared to more DF19+ samples). SNPs of the latter category are generally younger than the rest, and some of them may be specific for one family, or for a group of families that e.g. shared an early-medieval ancestor. We'll definitely learn a lot from these analyses!

Wim (co-administrator P312 & Subclades Project, with focus on DF19).

henrotte
04-05-2014, 07:47 PM
Vikings who settled in Normandy were quite all of them from Denmark.
DF19/DF88 arised in south Denmark / northern Germany, and may have been sent to northern France, low countries and Germany by Frankish invasions (3rd-5th centuries). Then by Saxons defeated families by Charlemagne which have been settled in many places in orther and western France and in the low countries (9th century). And finally by Norman people who settled in Normandy (Treaty of St Clair-sur-Epte, 911).

gigrant74
04-18-2014, 04:14 PM
Waiting on a few more Big Y's to come through (3 of our 5 DF88+ kits are in) for the Grant DNA Project and beginning to gather data now. Seems like a good time to ask a few dumb questions:

Do we know any additional SNPs below DF88 besides L644, L1199, L719 and 464QuadC??
Do we know any that branch of the 4 mentioned above?
Do we have a birth date yet on DF88 and/or any below SNPs?

Regarding the Big Y, should I be more focused on the SNPs listed in the "Haplogroups and SNPs" link from each kit's main page or am I correct that these are only the ones on FTDNA's current tree and are about to be VERY incomplete in comparison with the SNPs listed within the Big Y results?

Cross-checking SNPs now with our 3/5 results and I am seeing a few things I didn't expect, such as two different branches of Grants that share exclusive SNPs with the senior line (the Clan Chief) that they don't share with each other (this doesn't make sense to me if these lines are from different branches of a family tree and leads me to believe some of the data we are getting is unreliable).

Any and all thoughts/ideas/help will be greatly appreciated!

Wim_DF19
04-19-2014, 11:54 AM
Do we know any additional SNPs below DF88 besides L644, L1199, L719 and 464QuadC??
Do we know any that branch of the 4 mentioned above?
Do we have a birth date yet on DF88 and/or any below SNPs?


We currently estimate DF19 to be about 2300 years old, DF88 and Z302 are both slightly younger (presumably ca. 2200 years), and L644 should be between about 1300 and 1500 years old. I have already analysed 18 Big-Y datasets for DF19+ samples (17 of which are also DF88+), and have indeed identified lots of previously unknown SNPs downstream from DF88. See my post from 19 March above for more details on the oldest ones below DF88. We have also found robust SNPs downstream from L644 and L1199, and others that are closely associated with the QuadC feature.

The most important advise I can give you is that the majority of SNPs reported in the "novel variants" section are older than P312 (I'm keeping an overview of those), and that sequencing coverage is not identical is each sample. The absence of a specific SNP in one dataset does not automatically mean that this SNP is truly absent in the investigated Y-chromosome, it could simply have been missed due to incomplete coverage of that chromosomal region. This could be the reason for your unexpected observations in the Grant samples. I could try to help you with these issues and with the analysis, please contact me through private message if you're interested!

Best regards,

Wim.

RCAndrew
06-10-2014, 01:57 PM
Wim, See where L719 test is available at FTDNA, as a DF19'r, is it one that I should order? Thanks!

SLIMER64
09-17-2014, 10:26 AM
I had an inquiry from the Grant's and I found a whole series of Grant's that are great DF19 suspects so I'm adding them to the spreadsheet. Hopefully, a few more of them test for DF19 and join the P312 project, assuming they come up DF19+.

I have concerns about your methodology linking surname groups as close family members based on DF19+ alone. I have tested as DF19- but can explain this with over 600 years of mutation separation and localised mutation in Ireland. I have a paper trail and other supporting DNA which confirms I am a Strathavon Grant.

As a professional academic Chaos theorist I cannot accept your method premiss. All P312 and DF19+ proves is the estimated area of journey without reference to localised mutation even in the SNP residue. You have to restate the caveats to your theories. The facts of DF19+ are being manipulated to meet individual research so to match their views of close Grant family relationships in the last 400 years. This is totally false science

Webb
09-17-2014, 10:46 AM
I have concerns about your methodology linking surname groups as close family members based on DF19+ alone. I have tested as DF19- but can explain this with over 600 years of mutation separation and localised mutation in Ireland. I have a paper trail and other supporting DNA which confirms I am a Strathavon Grant.

As a professional academic Chaos theorist I cannot accept your method premiss. All P312 and DF19+ proves is the estimated area of journey without reference to localised mutation even in the SNP residue. You have to restate the caveats to your theories. The facts of DF19+ are being manipulated to meet individual research so to match their views of close Grant family relationships in the last 400 years. This is totally false science

Mike is not saying every Grant in existence is DF19. He is stating that there is a group one particular group bearing the Grant surname who look to be DF19 based on their str string. There are almost 40 unrelated Webb lineages. Most are P312, but several a are not. There is no way that every person with the Webb surname are related just as there is no way that everyone with the Grant surname is related.

SLIMER64
09-17-2014, 11:40 AM
Mike is not saying every Grant in existence is DF19. He is stating that there is a group one particular group bearing the Grant surname who look to be DF19 based on their str string. There are almost 40 unrelated Webb lineages. Most are P312, but several a are not. There is no way that every person with the Webb surname are related just as there is no way that everyone with the Grant surname is related.

That is not what I am saying. The DF19+ is being used to link certain individuals through direct lineage to the chiefly line. That is to say anyone DF19- is not related. Which is wrong when you take localised mutation into account and over 650 years of separation. Geoff is saying I am not related to the Chiefly line even though I have documentary proof and other DNA to prove it.

Webb
09-17-2014, 06:01 PM
That is not what I am saying. The DF19+ is being used to link certain individuals through direct lineage to the chiefly line. That is to say anyone DF19- is not related. Which is wrong when you take localised mutation into account and over 650 years of separation. Geoff is saying I am not related to the Chiefly line even though I have documentary proof and other DNA to prove it.

I get what you are saying. If you read up a little higher, you will see that as of now the rough age estimate for DF19 is 2300 years old. Therefore, because you are DF19- and the, I am assuming, Grant Clan is DF19+, there is no way you and "them" share a common male ancestor anymore recently than 2300 years ago. I am not saying that they are true "Grants" and you are not or that you are a true "Grant" and they are not. Unfortunately, if the current Clan Grant Chief is DF19+, then he can claim only those people who match his line genetically on the "Y" are true Grants, even he or his line are a product of a NPE. He is the chief after all. However, if the majority of Grants are some other SNP than DF19, then you would have some evidence to perhaps support the fact that perhaps the Chief line of Grant is a NPE and you and several other Grants are not.

Wim_DF19
09-18-2014, 12:34 PM
That is not what I am saying. The DF19+ is being used to link certain individuals through direct lineage to the chiefly line. That is to say anyone DF19- is not related. Which is wrong when you take localised mutation into account and over 650 years of separation. Geoff is saying I am not related to the Chiefly line even though I have documentary proof and other DNA to prove it.

First of all, DF19 predates the origin of the Grant surname. There is no doubt about that, because our age estimate of ca. 2300 years for this SNP is continuously being corroborated by all experimental observations (i.e. new samples testing positive for DF19). From this it follows that anyone who is DF19- cannot have a common male ancestor during the past ca. 2300 years with a family that is DF19+. If these genetically unrelated people have the same surname, they must either belong to independent families (having adopted the same surname independently of each other), or for (at least) one of the two lines the biological ancestry does not match the paper trail. The latter scenario involves non-paternal events (with the classic example of the stable-boy who helps to ensure the continuity of a nearly-extinct male line of a noble family), or cases of rape or adultery. Such events will never have been documented in writing, but modern genetic analysis will expose them nevertheless. In your case, as far as I am aware, the majority of Grant lineages claiming the same distant male ancestor as yourself is positive for DF19. Logic dictates that – if one of the two main lines truly descends from that illustrious ancestor – the DF19+ branch is the most likely candidate for this, especially because this group also comprises the Clan Chief’s male line, and the genetic variation in their STR-profiles is consistent with a medieval or post-medieval MRCA. These lines are thus all consistently related to each other, and thus likely represent the Y-chromosome of the medieval Grant ancestors.

You seem to suggest that DF19 could revert back to its ancestral state within a few generations. In the many dozens of cases which I have investigated, I have not once observed such a thing. Mutations are indeed unpredictable, but they are not magic. SNPs are generally very stable mutations, that simply do not revert. This is especially the case for the major SNPs that have been tested hundreds of times (such as DF19), and that are known to be located in stable regions of the Y-chromosome. The Y-chromosome consists of ca. 58 million base pairs, and if one of those 58 million positions changes due to a mutation event, the chance that the exact same position will mutate again in the “opposite direction” shortly thereafter is infinitesimally low, unless it is located in a mutational hotspot region. For DF19 this is decidedly not the case, it is entirely stable. The situation is quite different for STR mutations, which have actually been selected for their relatively high mutation rates, and which can be regarded as mutational hotspots due to the repetitive nature of their sequences. But SNPs are not STRs.

If, for the sake of argument, we would assume that you are an extremely rare example (with a chance of 1 in many millions) of a DF19+ Y-chromosome that suddenly became DF19- during the past 6 centuries, then surely your STR profile should still reveal a relatedness to that of the other Grant lineages. As I do not know your STR-profile, I cannot investigate this for you, but as a rule-of-thumb I would roughly expect a genetic distance of about 10 - 14 for 111 STRs, or in the range of 7-10 for 67 STRs, when assuming an MRCA who lived during the 14th century. With this information you can check for yourself whether your Y-chromosome STR-data are indicative of a shared male ancestry with the other Grants, who are DF19+.

Please feel free to assess your own specific situation with the information provided above. I can assure you that the methodology we use for interpreting Big-Y and other results within the DF19 haplogroup is scientifically correct, and that I am always very cautious with my interpretations and predictions. For Big-Y I e.g. only take into account stable SNPs that are 100% reliably detected in all related samples. In my opinion, it is great when genetic facts support a paper trail, but if they are not in agreement the genetic results will always take precedence over paper trails, no matter how well they have been researched, simply because some biological events have never been documented in writing for posterity. Our ancestry is not something that we can choose.

You mentioned that you have "other DNA to prove" that you descend from the Grant clan. Which type of results are you referring to exactly?

SLIMER64
09-18-2014, 04:56 PM
I get what you are saying. If you read up a little higher, you will see that as of now the rough age estimate for DF19 is 2300 years old. Therefore, because you are DF19- and the, I am assuming, Grant Clan is DF19+, there is no way you and "them" share a common male ancestor anymore recently than 2300 years ago. I am not saying that they are true "Grants" and you are not or that you are a true "Grant" and they are not. Unfortunately, if the current Clan Grant Chief is DF19+, then he can claim only those people who match his line genetically on the "Y" are true Grants, even he or his line are a product of a NPE. He is the chief after all. However, if the majority of Grants are some other SNP than DF19, then you would have some evidence to perhaps support the fact that perhaps the Chief line of Grant is a NPE and you and several other Grants are not.

Your premis is flawed. The earliest mutations in DF19 is between 2300 and 3700 years ago. That does not mean their has not been any mutations since. Also it is incorrect to assume stability. All STR and SNP signatures have to be viewed as error laden predictions and unstable (stability never exists just inert stages from time to time) and can be open to chaotic mutation unpredictability depending on many external and internal factors. At best DF19 can identify potential routes of ancient travel not family relationships in a 700 year period. I have spoken to Dr Mark Thomas (UCL) and have several other academic colleagues who counter your interpretation. Haplogroups cannot be used in pure family Genealogy Surname analysis. Someone with DF19+ can at best state they came from a similar area in ancient DNA terms (2500 - 4000 years ago) but even with the same surname can not say they are related. As with my DF19-, + or minus make no difference to predicted location and era as a set of mutations can impact on such signatures inside the lifetimes of two or three generations. The assumption the DF19 is stable and irreversible is a wrong assumption. As such a premiss goes against the stochastic error rates and assumption within all current predictive models used to interpret current familial data such as the Grants.

faulconer
09-18-2014, 08:26 PM
I am not entirely sure what it is that you are attempting to dispute. Are you contending that the DF19+ Chiefly descendants are not actually descended from Chiefly lines or that you might still be related to the DF19+ Chiefly line because back mutations are known to occur?

What is your haplogroup? Are you DF88+ and DF19-? If so, you could argue for the possibility that a back mutation has occurred in your Grant line and that additional testing would show all other known Grant SNPs as positive. However, if you belong to a different haplogroup, it would take a large number of back mutations and additional private mutations (that mimic your assigned haplogroup) for you to argue a relationship with the DF19+ DF88+ kits. I am curious as to how your colleagues feel comfortable defending the outrageously low odds of such events occurring in such a relatively short period of time.

gigrant74
09-18-2014, 11:31 PM
As a professional academic Chaos theorist...

What?? Isn't that an oxymoron??

This debate has gone on in other channels for years now. As a "chaos theorist," Slimer will be able to refute anything logical. Therefore, there's no rational in arguing over it. I've asked numerous people for 2nd and 3rd opinions regarding the Grant DNA Project. We've done everything we can to run an accurate and reliable surname project. Yet for over a year now, one person continues to argue that his DF19- is a close match to numerous DF19+ kits. And the STRs aren't even close! I stand firmly behind our research.

Wim said it best, "Our ancestry is not something we can choose."

GoldenHind
11-06-2014, 07:31 PM
I thought some might be interested in a summary of the ancestral origins of those who have currently tested DF19+. I recently posted similar figures for L238 and DF99. I have tried to combine multiple related surname samples into a single entry. While obviously not a scientific sampling, it does give some idea about what we currently know about the distribution of DF19.

England/UK 25
Scotland 13
USA- British surnames 12
Germany 12
Ireland (all have British surnames) 6
Netherlands 3
Ireland (Ulster- British surnames) 2
Norway 2
Belgium 2 (one is clearly Flemish, the other appears to have a French surname)
France (both are from Normandy) 2
Sweden 1
Italy 1
Poland 1
Czechoslovakia 1

A note re surnames: While I have more than a passing familiarity with British surnames, I have no particular expertise with Irish or continental surnames. I cannot identify which surnames in Ireland might be anglicized versions of Gaelic Irish surnames. I have not attempted to distinguish between English, Scottish and Welsh surnames.

Whenever dealing with data from the FTDNA database, one has to keep in mind the enormous overweighting of samples from the British Isles and Ireland compared to those from the continent.

henrotte
01-05-2015, 10:31 PM
I thought some might be interested in a summary of the ancestral origins of those who have currently tested DF19+. I recently posted similar figures for L238 and DF99. I have tried to combine multiple related surname samples into a single entry. While obviously not a scientific sampling, it does give some idea about what we currently know about the distribution of DF19.

England/UK 25
Scotland 13
USA- British surnames 12
Germany 12
Ireland (all have British surnames) 6
Netherlands 3
Ireland (Ulster- British surnames) 2
Norway 2
Belgium 2 (one is clearly Flemish, the other appears to have a French surname)
France (both are from Normandy) 2
Sweden 1
Italy 1
Poland 1
Czechoslovakia 1

A note re surnames: While I have more than a passing familiarity with British surnames, I have no particular expertise with Irish or continental surnames. I cannot identify which surnames in Ireland might be anglicized versions of Gaelic Irish surnames. I have not attempted to distinguish between English, Scottish and Welsh surnames.

Whenever dealing with data from the FTDNA database, one has to keep in mind the enormous overweighting of samples from the British Isles and Ireland compared to those from the continent.

The other surname from Belgium does not have a French origin but is an old Germanic one from Limburg.
Henrotte : hen [heinrich / hendrickx] -rot.
-rot is a very old suffix from merovingian times.

colibrant
03-01-2015, 06:00 PM
Wim V is a key advocate for DF19. He thinks there are DF19+ folks to be found in the Netherlands and Belgium. This was a direct email but it was sent out to multiple people and does not appear to be anything controversial or confidential so I'll quote from it.


----- Forwarded Message ----- Maarten Larmuseau


Side note on predicting DF27: DF19 does not look to be very southern European. It could impact the percentage of P312+ U152- L21- in northern Europe that ends up being DF27+. In other words, DF19 could be big enough to reduce the expected percentage of DF27+ out of those who haven't tested for it yet, at least in England and NW Europe. The jury is out, but it is possible that additional DF19 STR signatures will be found in NW Europe.

Dear Sir, I live in Belgium.I am negative for U152,DF27 and L21. My DYS385b=14 DYS458=17 and DYS576= 18.Then DYS 454= 12 . Do you think I have a chance to test positive for DF19 ? Thank you.

colibrant
03-01-2015, 06:13 PM
We've already analysed your results and they look great! Now we are waiting for the Big-Y reports for all remaining DF19+ samples (about 30 in total), to be able to draw general, final conclusions. What we can already say is that you (and probably all other L644+ samples) belong to a new subclade below DF19 and DF88, which is characterised by the S4281 mutation that was recently also found in the Chromo2 test. Downstream from S4281 your sub-subclade is S4268, and downstream from that you have the S10076, S10771 and S17075 mutations, which will probably also be present in (all?) other L644+ samples. As soon as we receive the Big-Y data for the other DF19+ samples we should be able to tell more about these new likely sub-subclades below DF19 and DF88, about their hierarchy, and how exactly they relate to the previously known SNPs that have already been placed onto the ISOGG haplotree (such as DF88, L644, L719, L1199, etc). Hopefully we'll be able to collect enough information to reliably position those new SNPs onto the haplotree very soon.

Overall the quality of the data seems to be quite good for the Big-Y results we've seen so far, for three DF19+ DF88+ samples: at this point they share 19 novel SNPs that seem to be specific for the DF19 subclade (i.e. not found in any of the DF19- samples). SNPs of this category are either slightly older than DF19 and/or DF88, or they originated at a time point between DF19 and the last common ancestor that was shared by the 3 investigated lineages (in any case before the origin of L644, because from these 3 samples only your sample is positive for that SNP). In addition to that, each sample has at least 20 - 30 novel SNPs that are "private" (i.e. only found in that specific sample, although this number can still decrease when they are compared to more DF19+ samples). SNPs of the latter category are generally younger than the rest, and some of them may be specific for one family, or for a group of families that e.g. shared an early-medieval ancestor. We'll definitely learn a lot from these analyses!

Wim (co-administrator P312 & Subclades Project, with focus on DF19).


Dear Sir, I live in Belgium.I am negative for U152,DF27 and L21. My DYS385b=14 DYS458=17 and DYS576= 18.Then DYS 454= 12 . Do you think I have a chance to test positive for DF19 ? Thank you.

GoldenHind
03-01-2015, 06:58 PM
Dear Sir, I live in Belgium.I am negative for U152,DF27 and L21. My DYS385b=14 DYS458=17 and DYS576= 18.Then DYS 454= 12 . Do you think I have a chance to test positive for DF19 ? Thank you.

Assuming you are R1b, the chance depends on whether you are P312 or U106. If you don't know and have tested 67 markers, your result at 492 is about 90% reliable in indicating which you are. A 12 there indicates P312, a 13 U016. If you are P312, you are very probably either DF19 or DF99. The only other possibilities are L238 and P312**, neither of which has been found in Belgium or Holland. Your result at 389i is a good indicator between DF19 and DF99. If you have a 12, you are likely to be DF99. With a 13, DF19 is more likely.

Note these are only probabilities. There is no guarantee short of actually testing.

Forestarius
12-07-2015, 07:39 PM
This thread is fascinating! Would I be correct that DF88 is primarily localized to the UK and is likely the result of Norse and Anglo-Saxon migrations?

I am DF88+ and my surname is Foster (with earliest records showing "Forster")...family history points towards the English-Scottish border region.

joeflood
12-22-2015, 04:35 AM
Why are people so reluctant to accept that R1b-L151 and its subclades spread from 2800BC with the Atlantic culture sometimes called Beaker that had its focus in England and Iberia? The current distribution of most subclades was essentially established by 2200BC, located where we see them now. A simple glance at the map will show you that L21 and all its subclades come from Britain, and anyone who thinks otherwise is taking an 'extreme position'. So does U106 too, in my opinion, though the evidence is not quite as glaring.

gigrant74
12-26-2015, 10:16 PM
Why are people so reluctant to accept that R1b-L151 and its subclades spread from 2800BC with the Atlantic culture sometimes called Beaker that had its focus in England and Iberia? The current distribution of most subclades was essentially established by 2200BC, located where we see them now. A simple glance at the map will show you that L21 and all its subclades come from Britain, and anyone who thinks otherwise is taking an 'extreme position'. So does U106 too, in my opinion, though the evidence is not quite as glaring.

U-106 definitely did not come from England, although it did come to England with the Vikings and the Anglo-Saxons. I think the most-accepted theory currently has U-106 first occurring in the Danish Peninsula, and there's little debate to the contrary that I know of. There is a huge population of it in the UK of course, but an even more dense population of it in N. Germany. History teaches us that the majority of the European migrations went west, and that the Vikings, Angles, Jutes, Saxons and Frisians were major settlers of England. U-106 is thousands of years old, and it's age proves that it could not have had an origin in England.

Dewsloth
10-05-2016, 07:52 PM
DF19 is another branch of P312 that is parallel to U152, L21, DF27 and L238. This tree chart shows where it fits in.
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-P312-Tree

DF19 doesn't get much attention so I'm opening up this thread for it.

Three years later and we still don't get a ton of attention. One of the Driffield burials turned out to be DF19+ (all the way down to S4268, or so, but not clear after that). I think that was the major discovery of the last year or so. Anyone know of any others?

FWIW, I'm waiting for Big Y sale before finding out more, but think I'm on an as-yet undetermined German Z17112 subclade of DF19/DF88 -- I did FTDNA's SNP pack but tested negative for everything below Z17112 that they look at, other than one "no call."

Pvg1949
04-20-2017, 01:05 PM
Hi, Dewsloth,
Do you have the big-y results? What was the outcome?
Gr, Paul ( df19, df88, R-Z27257)

Dewsloth
04-20-2017, 02:14 PM
Hi, Dewsloth,
Do you have the big-y results? What was the outcome?
Gr, Paul ( df19, df88, R-Z27257)

My dad and I stop at R-Z17112 with Big Y. Negative for common known SNPs below (z17075-, L644-, z21380-, Z27257-,etc.). Our closest match is a family that is from Alsace or Bavaria depending on which records you look at, but even they aren't incredibly close.

For comparison, 6Drif23 is a step below at z17075, but he is also L644- where most of the Big Y z17075s are also L644+. i think only one modern family surname in the DF19 group so far is z17075+, L644-.

Corocota79
05-17-2017, 05:12 PM
Any idea about Z17139? Much appreciated!!!

dan1967
06-06-2017, 02:46 AM
Hello Corocota79,

I have been assigned the same number. Please post if you learn anything.

Dewsloth
06-06-2017, 04:17 PM
Any idea about Z17139? Much appreciated!!!


Hello Corocota79,

I have been assigned the same number. Please post if you learn anything.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect it's another FTDNA goof like Z17153. I can see people in google searches who are DF88 and Z17139+ but also some who are DF19- and Z17139+.
Did either of you have any other indications of haplogroups further up? One person who got Z17153 already knew they were a U152, for instance.

Corocota79
06-13-2017, 02:39 PM
Yes I will, actually I have been moved back to this goof of Z17153, from Family tree I have seen that there is a French-Canadian, whose origins trace back to Normandy with this group. Still do not understand the reason why one person is assigned one group or the other...Cheers.
PS. Same thing, whether you know something just post it, thanks!!!

Corocota79
06-13-2017, 02:44 PM
I was initially assigned P-310 in Genographic 2.0. According to that my nearest person was someone form Canada whose perant line came form Belgium. Then I pass my results to Family Tree and they placed me in this Z17153, then Z17139 and Z17153 again...never been assigned though as U152, DF27, L21 or the rest of the groups under P-310...or rather R1b.

Dewsloth
06-13-2017, 03:34 PM
I was initially assigned P-310 in Genographic 2.0. According to that my nearest person was someone form Canada whose perant line came form Belgium. Then I pass my results to Family Tree and they placed me in this Z17153, then Z17139 and Z17153 again...never been assigned though as U152, DF27, L21 or the rest of the groups under P-310...or rather R1b.

This is pretty interesting. You may be P310* or P310+. One would think Geno 2.0 would take you farther downstream than P310 if they could. As a DF19, they got me as far down as S4281, past DF19.
You might want to join https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades and ask their admin if there is a specific (backbone?) test to confirm.

Edit: Looks like they will recommend this for people who get just P310 as a result, but join to confirm:

R1b-L51 > P310 (P312- U106-). Should order R1b - L51xP312xU106 SNP Pack or, preferably, Big Y

Dewsloth
02-28-2018, 07:01 PM
Just to bring folks up to speed, especially in case they are stumbling across this thread/forum for the first time:

The oldest known DF19 sample that I'm aware of is still 6DRIF-23 in Roman Eboracum (York) from c. 300AD. He is a Z17112* and a Z17075 but not a L644 (nearly all Z17075's today are also L644).

The most recent Beaker paper turned up a lot of other P312 subclades (many that are theoretically younger than DF19) across Europe, but no DF19 (nor L238, nor DF99).

So what was DF19 doing (and where was he doing it) between formation through Beaker times up until late Roman times? Nobody know, yet, but there are suspicions:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10565-The-Beaker-Phenomenon-And-The-Genomic-Transformation-Of-Northwest-Europe-Olalde&p=355446&viewfull=1#post355446



*Z17112 is calculated to have formed around the time of the Bronze Age Collapse. In a recent Flemish survey, of all the DF19s that were found, all were DF88 and 9 of 10 were Z17112.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12511-Defining-Y-SNP-variation-among-the-Flemish-population-(Western-Europe)-by-full-genome&p=306858&viewfull=1#post306858

Poster
04-16-2018, 09:04 PM
Hello, I’m a new poster on Anthrogenica, and I thought I might as well share my experience on learning that I belong to DF19. Please be mindful of the fact that I’m not used to posting on message boards. Thanks.

I originally got into genetic genealogy as a means to confirm my paper trail. I was fortunate to be a Canadian who had recent roots to Scotland, England and Ireland. My mother’s parents moved to Canada from Aberdeen, Scotland in the 50s, while my dad’s family came from various parts of England and Ireland in the early 20th century. So, I had a good sense of the background of my family.

Yet, when I did an autosomal test, I could find no matches on my direct paternal line. I knew that my dad’s paternal grandfather had moved from Bolton Lancs to Toronto in 1911 to join two brothers already in the country. My great grandfather’s grandfather (3rd great grandfather) had moved to Bolton from Failsworth—a town between Manchester and Oldham. My most distant known paternal ancestor (my 5th great grandfather) died in 1827 at Woodhouse Green Farm—situated on Cutler Hill Road, across from Daisy Nook Park—aged 80.

I decided to do the Y DNA test through FTDNA to clarify my paternal ancestry, and to seek matches if possible. I tested at 111 markers, and was yet another member of R-M259. I was fortunate to have some 3 and 4 GD matches at 67 markers. These matches had not tested to 111 markers.

None of these matches shared my surname, and they were all old-stock Americans, having deep ancestry in Virginia. I was quickly contacted by them, and they were happy that I had a well-developed paper trail in England. Yet they suggested that we were connected through an NPE; that my paternal grandfather was not the biological son of my great grandfather, but rather someone of their name. It was news to me.

I was open minded, but I had no evidence of this. My paternal grandfather’s parents had both been married before, with their spouses’ dying young. It is clear that they were married following an unplanned pregnancy based on time elapse between the marriage and birth of my grandfather.

I decided at this point to do SNP testing, and I did the Big Y test. My terminal SNP was originally Z30474, downstream of S22352 and S4281. A new terminal SNP, BY33347, was quickly assigned to me.

I have one Big Y match, from England, who was an 11/12 match; we have 30 non-matching variants and 1 shared variant. So, our connection was distant. Yet, I was very happy to be a member of a small, but quite active haplogroup: DF19

I was told by someone on the DF19 project on FTDNA that DYS576=20 could be a significant marker, and a sign of an unique lineage. All my close STR matches share this value, which is apparently uncommon in R1b.

I decided to go back to traditional genealogy to recruit testers. I found two good candidates: one was clearly a descendent of my 4th great grandfather and another was possibly a descendent of my 5th great grandfather. I contacted them both, and only the latter replied to me. I managed to get the latter to test for me.

I just received the results of the latter, and I have my first surname match in Y DNA testing. At 111 markers, we are a 9 point match, which suggests our ancestry is somewhat distant, but that we are definitely related. Interestingly, my surname match also matches my American matches. We all have a GD of 3 or 4 at 67 markers. This seems to prove my hypothesis that we all share ancestry in the English Pennines. We are also all clearly DF19. Although only I have underwent SNP testing at this point.

I’m hoping that on DNA day my surname match can be upgraded to the Big Y. I’m hoping to create a new branch of the DF19 tree or the S22352 tree to be more specific. To have a common SNP that could be getting close to the time of surnames would be great. It is clear that SNP testing, and the Big Y in particular, is the way to bridge the gap between traditional and genetic genealogy.

A new SNP might even convince my American matches to move beyond STR markers to SNP testing.

ADW_1981
04-16-2018, 09:55 PM
Great to hear of other P312+ dwellers from the city.

Poster
06-06-2018, 02:27 AM
There is a new branch below S22352 that includes 12 SNPs. My terminal SNP is now BY79362 (S4281 > S22352 > Z30474 > BY33347 > BY79362). I started at Z30474. Getting my 5th cousin once removed to test has proven to be a goldmine. I’m hoping that I can find some testing candidates through ancestry. Got a lot of work to catch up to S4281/Z17112!

Dewsloth
06-06-2018, 04:21 PM
There is a new branch below S22352 that includes 12 SNPs. My terminal SNP is now BY79362 (S4281 > S22352 > Z30474 > BY33347 > BY79362). I started at Z30474. Getting my 5th cousin once removed to test has proven to be a goldmine. I’m hoping that I can find some testing candidates through ancestry. Got a lot of work to catch up to S4281/Z17112!

Cool! It really is nice when you see actual progress. After the lulls, it can all seem so sudden.

My own little subclade is finally taking shape, and it seems Alex may have found a new SNP below Z17112 (BY44243) that unites a few of the subclades:
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=183
1 (mine) all Germans MDKA
1 Danish and English MDKA
2 British -- one has Brits (including one with a clearly Scandinavian origin surname), a Norwegian, and a German whose MDKA last name is "Frese"! The other subclade is English, Irish and German.
The FTDNA group admin mentioned he had seen the same thing in another related subclade that is nearly all German MDKAs.

It sure would be nice to get some actual ancient data to go with the modern...



Got a lot of work to catch up to S4281/Z17112!
:lol: Hey, crazy as it seems, for both of us at one point it all came down to one S4281 guy wandering around the Bronze Age doing who-knows-what.
Imagine if someone could go back and tell P312 what his kids were going to do over the next 3,000 years.

Poster
06-08-2018, 12:14 AM
It is neat that we get to play the role of pioneers in research. We really are descended from a small group of people. I imagine that there’ll be lots of progress to come over the course of the next few years. If the price of NGS drops, things could really pick up. I think the biggest challenge will be that continental Europe is pretty inimical to DNA testing.

Dewsloth
06-19-2018, 07:01 PM
Alex at The Big Tree appears to have identified a new subclade marker below the infamous ;) Z17112 uniting 3 branches. It now has a BY prefix name of BY44243:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=183

This, combined with info from one of the FTDNA group admins who had spotted the marker in another family line, indicates these united subclades below Z17112:

Z43162 (4 German MDKA)

Z17123 (1 England, 1 Ireland, 1 Great Britain, 3 Unknown, 15 German MDKA)

Z21280 (1 Denmark, 2 England, 1 Ireland, 1 Germany, 1 United Kingdom, 1 Scotland, 2 Unknown MDKA)

Both Z17112 and Z17123 were previously calculated to have formed around 1200 BC; Z21280 around 900 BC.

It sure would be nice if someone could find a DF19 burial or two dated around the Bronze Age Collapse. Let the speculation commence. :biggrin1:

Dewsloth
07-09-2018, 10:39 PM
Just for fun, looking at the MDKAs of the most numerous and cosmopolitan of the Z17112 subclade branches in the spirit of the above post, here is Z17112>S17075>L644:

Belgium: 2
England: 13
Germany: 3
Ireland: 4
Netherlands: 4
Scotland: 5
Sweden: 3
Wales: 1
United Kingdom: 4
United States: 2
Unknown: 12

Note 1: 2 of the 12 Unknowns have geographical Finnish surname that is a coastal point closest (across the water) to Stockholm, and have the same subclade below L644 as 2 of the 3 Swedes.
Note 2: 6DRIF23 is a S17075, but he is one of only a very few known S17075 that is also L644-

HaSofer
01-19-2019, 12:03 PM
Is there a known jewish subclade of DF-19?
On ftdna I noticed some jewish Names like "Blumenthal" or firstnames like Abraham, Moses, Ephraim or Levi in the group "R DF-19 and Subclades".
They could of course also have come from converts to judaism. But it would be intresting to know if there is something like a "jewish" subclade of DF-19.

Dewsloth
01-19-2019, 05:17 PM
Is there a known jewish subclade of DF-19?
On ftdna I noticed some jewish Names like "Blumenthal" or firstnames like Abraham, Moses, Ephraim or Levi in the group "R DF-19 and Subclades".
They could of course also have come from converts to judaism. But it would be intresting to know if there is something like a "jewish" subclade of DF-19.

Wow, welcome. That’s interesting. From what I can tell, DF19 clusters in the Low Countries, Germany and the British Isles. My uneducated guess is that someone converted there or some sort of “non -paternal” paternal event occurred where no conversion was necessary. Certainly Ashkenazi/Yekkim and DF19 have been living in close proximity in germany for well over 1000 years. What subclade are we talking about?

favouriteslave
04-18-2019, 01:59 AM
My Grandfather Binford tested DF-19, R-Z8193 He and his entire tree is Norman dating all the way back thru England and before that Normandy. Binford was changed from Bienfaite! The kit is at FTDNA #247333. We have fairly good matches with the Gordon surname. 37 markers only at distance of 4. That is our closest match unfortunately.

Edit to add: Most people would think Gordon is just Scottish because of the Scottish clan Gordon. It's not entirely. Good reason to believe it was actually Norman.

"Scotland. The Gordons are believed to have been originally of Norman descent. The name started to appear in the Borders in the 12th century. It was Sir Adam de Gordon, a friend of William Wallace, who was appointed to the lordship of Strathbogie and Badenoch by Robert the Bruce in 1319. He brought the name and the family to Aberdeenshire in the northeast of the country."

http://www.selectsurname.com/gordon.html

Dewsloth
04-18-2019, 05:05 AM
My Grandfather Binford tested DF-19, R-Z8193 He and his entire tree is Norman dating all the way back thru England and before that Normandy. Binford was changed from Bienfaite! The kit is at FTDNA #247333. We have fairly good matches with the Gordon surname. 37 markers only at distance of 4. That is our closest match unfortunately.

Cool! A Z302.:)

edit: Please make sure to add him to Alex's Big Tree, too.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=183

favouriteslave
04-18-2019, 03:20 PM
Found something interesting on this page. Researching the name Gordon, since some of the Gordons/Scots are DF-19. Found some info about Jewish Gordons. Maybe a connection?

http://www.selectsurname.com/gordon.html

favouriteslave
04-18-2019, 03:24 PM
Cool! A Z302.:)

edit: Please make sure to add him to Alex's Big Tree, too.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=183

I didn't do the Big Y for my grandfather. I just tested individual SNP on a hunch from someone else. How would I add him without Big Y or FGC?

Dewsloth
04-18-2019, 04:52 PM
I didn't do the Big Y for my grandfather. I just tested individual SNP on a hunch from someone else. How would I add him without Big Y or FGC?

Oh, I don't think you can, then. Too bad -- we need more DF19s on that thing! :)

Dewsloth
06-20-2019, 06:12 PM
In case anyone is subscribed to this thread and missed the other post about this major P312>DF19 news:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17391-New-early-branch-in-P312

^^^The old DF19 block appears to be split! I guess I'm gonna have to change my sig line when I get a chance :lol:

Greg Atlanta
07-22-2019, 01:19 PM
I am not a Big Y. I got my DF88 from 23andMe. Thought I would add my name to the discussion, though. I am a Streib--German line. We are from Eschelbronn for the last 150 years that I can document. It is not a big family, but those that exist are mostly in the nearby German towns. There are some Streibs in Denmark and some variations of the name there that are curious. There are also interesting name variations on Sweden and the Netherlands. One could certainly make a case for a DF19 origin and migration, though that would involve a lot of guesswork at this point.

Dewsloth
07-23-2019, 08:29 PM
I am not a Big Y. I got my DF88 from 23andMe. Thought I would add my name to the discussion, though. I am a Streib--German line. We are from Eschelbronn for the last 150 years that I can document. It is not a big family, but those that exist are mostly in the nearby German towns. There are some Streibs in Denmark and some variations of the name there that are curious. There are also interesting name variations on Sweden and the Netherlands. One could certainly make a case for a DF19 origin and migration, though that would involve a lot of guesswork at this point.

Welcome! It doesn't look like there are any Streibs in the FTDNA DF19 group anywhere ... yet. No DF19 from Eschelbronn, yet, either. In fact there is kind of a hole around the Heidelberg area, but DF19 on all sides of the hole.

Greg Atlanta
09-05-2019, 02:16 PM
Thanks for the update! I found a picture of Eschelbronn about the time my great-grandfather left. Tiny! Not sure what sort of migration pattern might have brought more people to that area in more modern times. Likewise, Streibs are not a big group, though, as I say above, that range might be way bigger if some of the name variations come from a common source.

Dewsloth
10-29-2019, 10:42 PM
Is there a known jewish subclade of DF-19?
On ftdna I noticed some jewish Names like "Blumenthal" or firstnames like Abraham, Moses, Ephraim or Levi in the group "R DF-19 and Subclades".
They could of course also have come from converts to judaism. But it would be intresting to know if there is something like a "jewish" subclade of DF-19.


Wow, welcome. That’s interesting. From what I can tell, DF19 clusters in the Low Countries, Germany and the British Isles. My uneducated guess is that someone converted there or some sort of “non -paternal” paternal event occurred where no conversion was necessary. Certainly Ashkenazi/Yekkim and DF19 have been living in close proximity in germany for well over 1000 years. What subclade are we talking about?

Well what do you know?
I just got the first new Big Y match in over a year, and not only is the person's MDKA from the same area as 2 of the 3 other matches (although I don't know if he's close enough for a FTDNA autosomal or STR match to any of the others) in the Nassau/Rhine/Taunus area, but his MDKA (back to the early 1800s, and migrated to the US) was Jewish.

Dewsloth
10-30-2019, 11:05 PM
MitchellSince1893 did this experiment in the DF27 thread, but it also needs to be preserved here! Thanks, dude!!!


Oh I already have it...just didn't post everything as this is a DF27 focused thread

Country, P312 samples, DF19 percentage of P312 samples
Belgium 90 14.44%
Luxembourg 9 11.11%
Netherlands 98 9.63%
Isle of Man 11 9.09%
Germany 913 8.54%
Czech Republic 50 8.00%
Canada 119 5.04%
Austria 41 4.88%
United States (Native American) 93 4.30%
Poland 115 3.48%
Norway 177 3.39%
England 2742 2.99%
Sweden 253 2.77%
United States 1782 2.41%
Russian Federation 45 2.22%
Scotland 2880 2.19%
United Kingdom 1121 1.96%
Northern Ireland 505 1.78%
Denmark 61 1.64%
Switzerland 292 1.37%
Wales 430 1.16%
France 898 1.11%
Ireland 5208 0.60%
Portugal 235 0.43%
Italy 352 0.28%

How strange that France is so low when its neighbors are so much higher.

rms2
11-29-2019, 05:09 PM
I have not searched through this whole thread to see if someone has mentioned this already, but were you all aware that evidently Philip Calvert (c. 1626 - 1683) and his infant son were R1b-DF19>S10067? Philip was Royal Governor of Maryland from 1660 - 1661. He was the youngest son of the first Lord Baltimore.

Philip Calvert was buried, along with his infant son and his wife, Anne Wolsely Calvert, in a brick chapel in Chapel Field, St. Mary's City, Maryland. Their bodies were unearthed in 1992 and their dna tested in 2016 with the help of Dr. David Reich and his team from Harvard. Evidently the infant boy was not the child of Anne Wolsely Calvert but of Philip's second wife, Jane Sewall. The baby died at six months old, only about three months after Philip himself died.

Mystery of the Lead Coffin Baby (https://hsmcdigshistory.org/research/archaeology/mystery-of-the-lead-coffin-baby/?fbclid=IwAR18wdxgzIpzUgcJR_Dnj4UPS9RVPK24yuJrIz9a-e0kU1Orc3Jz7MzaCNk)

faulconer
11-30-2019, 02:01 AM
From wikipedia:
Little is known of the ancestry of the Yorkshire branch of the Calverts. At George Calvert's knighting, it was claimed that his family originally came from Flanders (a Dutch-speaking area today across the English Channel in modern Belgium)

Dewsloth
11-30-2019, 03:56 AM
I have not searched through this whole thread to see if someone has mentioned this already, but were you all aware that evidently Philip Calvert (c. 1626 - 1683) and his infant son were R1b-DF19>S10067? Philip was Royal Governor of Maryland from 1660 - 1661. He was the youngest son of the first Lord Baltimore.

Philip Calvert was buried, along with his infant son and his wife, Anne Wolsely Calvert, in a brick chapel in Chapel Field, St. Mary's City, Maryland. Their bodies were unearthed in 1992 and their dna tested in 2016 with the help of Dr. David Reich and his team from Harvard. Evidently the infant boy was not the child of Anne Wolsely Calvert but of Philip's second wife, Jane Sewall. The baby died at six months old only about three months after Philip himself died.

Mystery of the Lead Coffin Baby (https://hsmcdigshistory.org/research/archaeology/mystery-of-the-lead-coffin-baby/?fbclid=IwAR18wdxgzIpzUgcJR_Dnj4UPS9RVPK24yuJrIz9a-e0kU1Orc3Jz7MzaCNk)

thanks! I honestly had no idea! That's the same subclade block as L644 (see post #58 above).

Dewsloth
11-30-2019, 03:40 PM
Actually, post 58 is old news. Now that we have blocktree data, it looks like this for the Calvert's subclade:


All Downstream Participants
R-S10067 and Downstream (Including other Letters)
Distribution
Belgium 9 15.25%
Canada 2 3.39%
England 15 25.42%
Germany 7 11.86%
Guyana 1 1.69%
Ireland 4 6.78%
Netherlands 4 6.78%
Scotland 3 5.08%
Sweden 3 5.08%
United Kingdom 7 11.86%
United States 3 5.08%
Wales 1 1.69%
Unknown Origin 41

Interesting that there are more Belgians than Germans in this subclade. You don't see that a lot.

Between the Swedes and the "unknown" Finns referenced in Post #58, it wouldn't surprise me much to see that is is the subclade of VK333 - the DF19 Viking buried in a Swedish island from the recent Viking study.

Dewsloth
04-10-2020, 07:43 PM
Of all the pre-1BCE ancient G25 sample components, the 2 "ancient" DF19s (RMPR31 and 6DRIF23 -- both from later Roman era and territories) and my father, there was only one component that all 3 shared:

Bell_Beaker_England

If we get more DF19s (ancient or modern), it will be interesting to see if this holds.

Pvg1949
04-26-2020, 02:51 PM
Are you a member of the df19 group of familytreedna?

Dewsloth
04-26-2020, 03:44 PM
Yes, I am. :)

Pvg1949
04-26-2020, 06:04 PM
I am 46732 where can i trace you?

Dewsloth
04-27-2020, 02:05 PM
I am 46732 where can i trace you?

PM'ed you :)

GOM
06-02-2020, 06:38 AM
I haven’t seen a proper analysis of how predominant DF19 is in different countries. The FTDNA “Public Haplotree” page currently lists 902 positive tests falling under “DF19 and downstream participants”. The most common testers list their MDKA as originating from England (87), followed by Germany (85), Scotland (75) and USA (53), but this is obviously influenced by population size and each country’s interest in genealogy.

I’ve only just realised that there is a way of normalising these numbers to reflect the number of tests undertaken in each country. As we’re all descended from the genealogical “Adam”, the earliest haplogroup listed A-PR2921 lists the total testers in each country who were positive for A-PR2921 (currently 578 of them), but handily also lists the numbers of testers in each country who fall into haplogroups downstream. Those 186,057 souls tallied in “All Downstream Participants - A-PR2921 and Downstream (Including other Letters)” represent all tests that FTDNA has done. As they are listed by country it is possible to calculate the proportion of tests in each country that were positive for any particular SNP (see DF19/A% below). Here’s the result for European DF19s:

Country n DF19/A% P312/A% DF19/P312%
Belgium 14 3.75 28.4 13.21
Luxembourg 1 2.17 23.9 9.09
Netherlands 13 1.23 14.4 8.55
Germany 85 1.08 13.4 8.08
Czech Republic 4 0.67 9.5 7.02
Austria 2 0.38 9.8 3.92
Norway 7 0.41 11.6 3.48
Poland 4 0.14 4.4 3.15
Denmark 2 0.33 11.5 2.82
England 87 0.72 25.8 2.78
Sweden 7 0.21 8.4 2.49
Scotland 75 1.15 48.2 2.38
Russian Federation 1 0.02 1.2 1.92
United Kingdom 23 0.52 29.6 1.77
Northern Ireland 8 0.80 54.2 1.48
Wales 6 0.60 48.3 1.24
France 12 0.43 37.9 1.13
Switzerland 3 0.21 24.8 0.86
Ireland 31 0.35 63.5 0.55
Italy 2 0.07 13.3 0.51
Portugal 1 0.12 34.2 0.36
Tot. 388


As the percentage of DF19+ tests in any country could be swamped by haplogroups other than P312, it seems the most useful indicator of the predominance of DF19 is the DF19/P312 ratio as shown on the map below. The Benelux countries show the greatest concentration of DF19, but the recruitment factor amongst the Verelst family accounts for some of this. The high numbers in the Benelux countries and Germany may only reflect favourable locations for relatively few descendants of DF19 to prosper after DF19 appeared some 4,500 ybp.

37837

There are also some interesting trends when plotting DF19% vs. P312% for each country as shown below. The southern European countries show a much lower proportion of DF19 than the northern countries. The countries of the British Isles fall somewhere between the two, possibly reflecting their origin from a mixture of sources. I am still pondering what it all means, but the strong trend evident in the northern countries (R-squared= 0.88) seems to me say something about relatively rapid dispersal of a coherent group from the source area.

37838

The more distant countries in southern Europe and particularly Ireland have a much lower proportion of DF19, presumably because they were populated by haplogroups under P312 other than DF19. I have little knowledge of the possible source areas of those other haplogroups.

Please let me know if this is all rubbish or has been analysed elsewhere.

Webb
06-02-2020, 02:38 PM
I haven’t seen a proper analysis of how predominant DF19 is in different countries. The FTDNA “Public Haplotree” page currently lists 902 positive tests falling under “DF19 and downstream participants”. The most common testers list their MDKA as originating from England (87), followed by Germany (85), Scotland (75) and USA (53), but this is obviously influenced by population size and each country’s interest in genealogy.

I’ve only just realised that there is a way of normalising these numbers to reflect the number of tests undertaken in each country. As we’re all descended from the genealogical “Adam”, the earliest haplogroup listed A-PR2921 lists the total testers in each country who were positive for A-PR2921 (currently 578 of them), but handily also lists the numbers of testers in each country who fall into haplogroups downstream. Those 186,057 souls tallied in “All Downstream Participants - A-PR2921 and Downstream (Including other Letters)” represent all tests that FTDNA has done. As they are listed by country it is possible to calculate the proportion of tests in each country that were positive for any particular SNP (see DF19/A% below). Here’s the result for European DF19s:

Country n DF19/A% P312/A% DF19/P312%
Belgium 14 3.75 28.4 13.21
Luxembourg 1 2.17 23.9 9.09
Netherlands 13 1.23 14.4 8.55
Germany 85 1.08 13.4 8.08
Czech Republic 4 0.67 9.5 7.02
Austria 2 0.38 9.8 3.92
Norway 7 0.41 11.6 3.48
Poland 4 0.14 4.4 3.15
Denmark 2 0.33 11.5 2.82
England 87 0.72 25.8 2.78
Sweden 7 0.21 8.4 2.49
Scotland 75 1.15 48.2 2.38
Russian Federation 1 0.02 1.2 1.92
United Kingdom 23 0.52 29.6 1.77
Northern Ireland 8 0.80 54.2 1.48
Wales 6 0.60 48.3 1.24
France 12 0.43 37.9 1.13
Switzerland 3 0.21 24.8 0.86
Ireland 31 0.35 63.5 0.55
Italy 2 0.07 13.3 0.51
Portugal 1 0.12 34.2 0.36
Tot. 388


As the percentage of DF19+ tests in any country could be swamped by haplogroups other than P312, it seems the most useful indicator of the predominance of DF19 is the DF19/P312 ratio as shown on the map below. The Benelux countries show the greatest concentration of DF19, but the recruitment factor amongst the Verelst family accounts for some of this. The high numbers in the Benelux countries and Germany may only reflect favourable locations for relatively few descendants of DF19 to prosper after DF19 appeared some 4,500 ybp.

37837

There are also some interesting trends when plotting DF19% vs. P312% for each country as shown below. The southern European countries show a much lower proportion of DF19 than the northern countries. The countries of the British Isles fall somewhere between the two, possibly reflecting their origin from a mixture of sources. I am still pondering what it all means, but the strong trend evident in the northern countries (R-squared= 0.88) seems to me say something about relatively rapid dispersal of a coherent group from the source area.

37838

The more distant countries in southern Europe and particularly Ireland have a much lower proportion of DF19, presumably because they were populated by haplogroups under P312 other than DF19. I have little knowledge of the possible source areas of those other haplogroups.

Please let me know if this is all rubbish or has been analysed elsewhere.

I don't think its rubbish. Unfortunately most studies surveying Ydna report U152, L21, and then P312. So its not easy to infer the exact subclade breakdown of P312. If Spain, Ireland, and Italy, then you would have to assume it is a majority of DF27. If England, France, Germany, the Low Countries, then you run into countries where DF99, DF19, come into play. Even further north into Scandinavia you have to account for L238. There are a few other groups who get lumped into P312, but they are very small in regards to modern distribution. So your conclusion is sound. Far west and South in Europe then P312 is probably DF27 in a study. Once you get back to France, the Low Countries and Germany, you would have to start replacing some DF27 with DF19 and DF99.

Dewsloth
06-02-2020, 06:20 PM
^^Nice!! If we ever get some Bronze or early Iron Age samples, it might help make sense of some of the confusion.

GOM
06-03-2020, 01:12 AM
Thanks for your comments Webb. Using the same methodology, here's the breakdown of P312 sub-clades (sorry I don't know how to format it properly in this forum - you'll have to download it to a spreadsheet):

Country P312 n DF19 DF27 DF99 L21 L238 U152 Total
Albania 0 #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A
Armenia 5 0.00 60.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 20.00 80.00
Austria 51 3.92 9.80 1.96 9.80 1.96 58.82 86.27
Belarus 24 0.00 41.67 0.00 8.33 0.00 45.83 95.83
Belgium 106 13.21 27.36 0.94 15.09 0.00 30.19 86.79
Bosnia and Herzegovina 2 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 100.00 100.00
Bulgaria 14 0.00 28.57 0.00 35.71 0.00 28.57 92.86
Croatia 3 0.00 0.00 0.00 33.33 0.00 33.33 66.67
Czech Republic 57 7.02 24.56 8.77 7.02 0.00 50.88 98.25
Denmark 71 2.82 22.54 4.23 28.17 8.45 23.94 90.14
England 3,129 2.78 23.65 1.09 47.46 0.38 18.70 94.06
Estonia 2 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 100.00 100.00
Finland 66 0.00 27.27 0.00 27.27 13.64 25.76 93.94
France 1,064 1.13 34.40 1.13 24.53 0.00 28.48 89.66
Germany 1,052 8.08 21.20 2.76 17.11 0.19 42.11 91.44
Greece 18 0.00 22.22 0.00 11.11 0.00 55.56 88.89
Guernsey 4 0.00 0.00 0.00 100.00 0.00 0.00 100.00
Hungary 53 0.00 20.75 0.00 9.43 0.00 58.49 88.68
Iceland 4 0.00 0.00 0.00 100.00 0.00 0.00 100.00
Ireland 5,658 0.55 5.85 0.05 88.32 0.11 3.06 97.93
Italy 390 0.51 16.67 2.56 7.18 0.26 67.18 94.36
Jersey 0 #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A
Latvia 9 0.00 11.11 0.00 44.44 0.00 44.44 100.00
Liechtenstein 3 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 100.00 100.00
Lithuania 19 0.00 21.05 0.00 15.79 0.00 63.16 100.00
Luxembourg 11 9.09 18.18 9.09 9.09 0.00 45.45 90.91
Malta 6 0.00 16.67 0.00 0.00 0.00 66.67 83.33
Moldova 1 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 100.00 0.00 100.00
Montenegro 2 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 100.00 100.00
Netherlands 152 8.55 29.61 0.66 24.34 0.00 26.32 89.47
Northern Ireland 539 1.48 11.69 0.37 79.96 0.00 4.08 97.59
Norway 201 3.48 11.94 0.00 39.30 28.36 11.44 94.53
Poland 127 3.15 25.98 1.57 12.60 2.36 49.61 95.28
Portugal 278 0.36 64.39 0.36 15.11 0.00 6.83 87.05
Romania 19 0.00 10.53 0.00 10.53 0.00 63.16 84.21
Russian Federation 52 1.92 13.46 3.85 21.15 0.00 53.85 94.23
Sápmi (Sámi) 0 #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A
Scotland 3,154 2.38 9.83 0.03 79.17 0.32 4.72 96.45
Serbia 6 0.00 0.00 0.00 33.33 0.00 50.00 83.33
Slovakia 10 0.00 20.00 10.00 10.00 0.00 60.00 100.00
Slovenia 9 0.00 0.00 0.00 44.44 0.00 44.44 88.89
Spain 688 0.00 61.34 0.15 12.35 0.00 7.85 81.69
Sweden 281 2.49 23.84 1.07 32.74 15.66 21.71 97.51
Switzerland 349 0.86 19.77 3.44 7.45 0.00 57.02 88.54
Ukraine 37 0.00 35.14 2.70 8.11 0.00 40.54 86.49
United Kingdom 1,302 1.77 16.82 0.77 59.14 0.69 12.29 91.47
Wales 483 1.24 8.90 0.62 73.08 0.00 5.59 89.44
Unknown Origin 17,232 2.60 19.63 0.31 56.96 0.31 16.21 96.02
Total 39,518

Of the southern European countries I highlighted with low DF19 levels, Spain and Portugal are swamped by DF27 and to a lesser extent L21. Switzerland and Italy have mostly U152 and lesser DF27. France has almost equal mixtures of DF27, U152 and L21. The Scandinavian counties have a heady brew of L21, DF27, U152 and L238. Would this imply that Scandinavia was a trading hub, or an attractive place to be conquered? It's interesting that the epicentre of DF99 appears to be Slovakia, closely followed by Luxembourg, but we are dealing with low numbers at this stage. The unsurmountable stronghold of L238 lies in Moldova (but n=1).

GOM
06-03-2020, 05:40 AM
Using the same methodology as yesterday, here's the distribution of DF19 sub-clades in Europe:

DF19 sub-clades (only those tested below DF19)
Country DF19_n DF88 Z302 Z39380 Total
Austria 1 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Belgium 12 92 8.33 0.00 100.00
Czech Republic 4 25 75.00 0.00 100.00
Denmark 2 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
England 78 82 15.38 2.56 100.00
France 8 75 25.00 0.00 100.00
Germany 74 82 17.57 0.00 100.00
Ireland 27 70 25.93 3.70 100.00
Italy 2 50 50.00 0.00 100.00
Luxembourg 0 #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A
Netherlands 11 82 18.18 0.00 100.00
Northern Ireland 8 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Norway 5 80 20.00 0.00 100.00
Poland 3 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Portugal 1 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Russian Federation 1 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Scotland 72 92 8.33 0.00 100.00
Sweden 5 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Switzerland 1 0 100.00 0.00 100.00
United Kingdom 18 83 11.11 5.56 100.00
Wales 5 60 40.00 0.00 100.00
Unknown Origin 287 82 15.68 2.09 100.00
Total 625

Note that only those men tested below DF19 are included in the distribution. For example Luxembourg has only one worthy soul who has tested as DF19+ but he has not been tested below that level.

Where does the Z39380 sub-clade originate (formed 4,500 ybp according to Yfull)? It has only been reported in England (2 tests) the UK (1 test) and Ireland (1 test), plus another 3 with a MDKA from the USA.

To continue the theme from yesterday's post, below is a plot of the dominant sub-clade DF88 as a percentage of DF19, versus the percentage of P312 present in each country. We don't know which of the three DF19 sub-clades formed first, but I suspect it would be the dominant sub-clade DF88. It shows a consistent cluster of the northern European countries in the top left corner while the southern European countries and the British Isles are more scattered and generally lower in DF88.

To me that points to an origin somewhere within that group of northern countries followed by diffusion away from the source. The number of tests is a little low, but it is interesting that two of the more likely source countries, Sweden (5 tests) and Denmark (2 tests) have 100% DF88. This speculation could easily break down as more tests come in.

37860

Dewsloth
06-03-2020, 05:28 PM
Using the same methodology as yesterday, here's the distribution of DF19 sub-clades in Europe:

DF19 sub-clades (only those tested below DF19)
Country DF19_n DF88 Z302 Z39380 Total
Austria 1 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Belgium 12 92 8.33 0.00 100.00
Czech Republic 4 25 75.00 0.00 100.00
Denmark 2 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
England 78 82 15.38 2.56 100.00
France 8 75 25.00 0.00 100.00
Germany 74 82 17.57 0.00 100.00
Ireland 27 70 25.93 3.70 100.00
Italy 2 50 50.00 0.00 100.00
Luxembourg 0 #N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A
Netherlands 11 82 18.18 0.00 100.00
Northern Ireland 8 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Norway 5 80 20.00 0.00 100.00
Poland 3 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Portugal 1 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Russian Federation 1 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Scotland 72 92 8.33 0.00 100.00
Sweden 5 100 0.00 0.00 100.00
Switzerland 1 0 100.00 0.00 100.00
United Kingdom 18 83 11.11 5.56 100.00
Wales 5 60 40.00 0.00 100.00
Unknown Origin 287 82 15.68 2.09 100.00
Total 625

Note that only those men tested below DF19 are included in the distribution. For example Luxembourg has only one worthy soul who has tested as DF19+ but he has not been tested below that level.

Where does the Z39380 sub-clade originate (formed 4,500 ybp according to Yfull)? It has only been reported in England (2 tests) the UK (1 test) and Ireland (1 test), plus another 3 with a MDKA from the USA.

To continue the theme from yesterday's post, below is a plot of the dominant sub-clade DF88 as a percentage of DF19, versus the percentage of P312 present in each country. We don't know which of the three DF19 sub-clades formed first, but I suspect it would be the dominant sub-clade DF88. It shows a consistent cluster of the northern European countries in the top left corner while the southern European countries and the British Isles are more scattered and generally lower in DF88.

To me that points to an origin somewhere within that group of northern countries followed by diffusion away from the source. The number of tests is a little low, but it is interesting that two of the more likely source countries, Sweden (5 tests) and Denmark (2 tests) have 100% DF88. This speculation could easily break down as more tests come in.

37860

Besides Z39380, a couple of DF88's "sons" are almost exclusively Scottish. DF88>L1199/L1200 and DF88>Z29041. If you took these two subclades out of your DF88 chart, I think the remainder might shift even more to the north.
I'm wondering if these didn't cross the water in late Beaker or early Bronze Age. They include Clan Grant members.

You can see some of them to the right on this tree (easier on the FTDNA Block Tree if you can access):
https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=183

also:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF19?iframe=yresults

GOM
06-04-2020, 05:58 AM
Besides Z39380, a couple of DF88's "sons" are almost exclusively Scottish. DF88>L1199/L1200 and DF88>Z29041. If you took these two subclades out of your DF88 chart, I think the remainder might shift even more to the north.
I'm wondering if these didn't cross the water in late Beaker or early Bronze Age. They include Clan Grant members.


Here's the distribution of the five sub-clades of DF88 reported by FTDNA (with the more commonly mentioned Z17112 and below it L644 of course falling under FGC11833):

Sub-clades of DF88
Country FGC11833_n FGC11833/DF88% L1200_n L1200/DF88% Z29041_n Z29041/DF88% Z43235_n Z43235/DF88% BY61838_n BY61838/DF88%
Austria 1 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Belgium 11 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Czech Republic 1 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Denmark 2 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
England 59 95.16 2 3.23 0 0.00 0 0.00 1 1.61
France 5 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Germany 55 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Ireland 16 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Italy 0 0.00 0 0.00 1 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Luxembourg 0 #N/A 0 #N/A 0 #N/A 0 #N/A 0 #N/A
Netherlands 8 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Northern Ireland 5 83.33 0 0.00 1 16.67 0 0.00 0 0.00
Norway 3 75.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 1 25.00 0 0.00
Poland 2 66.67 0 0.00 0 0.00 1 33.33 0 0.00
Portugal 1 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Russian Federation 1 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Scotland 28 41.79 9 13.43 30 44.78 0 0.00 0 0.00
Sweden 5 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Switzerland 0 #N/A 0 #N/A 0 #N/A 0 #N/A 0 #N/A
United Kingdom 13 92.86 0 0.00 1 7.14 0 0.00 0 0.00
Wales 2 100.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00 0 0.00
Unknown Origin 217 97.75 4 1.80 1 0.45 0 0.00 0 0.00
Total 435 15 34 2 1

Scotland is certainly anomalously high in the two sub-clades you mentioned, higher than in any other country. Some of this though would be caused by the recruitment factor. For example there are 13 "Grants" listed under Z29041 in the DF19 FTDNA Project, and more than a few Ranneys under L1200. But 30 Scots out of 34 Europeans positive for Z29041! Something odd is happening.

Here's a revised chart with just the FGC11833 as a proportion of DF88 versus P312:

37873

As you suggested, those countries' values without the "Scottish" sub-clades become more closely clustered. I'm not sure what that means though - after all if you keep removing the anomalous data the rest of the data set has to become "cleaner". I tried plots of just the minor sub-clades of DF88 but the numbers are too small to reveal anything meaningful at this stage.

Webb
06-04-2020, 12:53 PM
Please look through page two of the post at Ancient DNA sub forum where at the top of the sub forum someone released the ydna calls of 2500 samples from many different papers. This one is of note:

R31.SG Italy_LateAntiquity.SG R1b1a1b1a1a2e2. It appears to be DF19 and I don't know if you guys know about this sample.

Dewsloth
06-04-2020, 01:56 PM
Please look through page two of the post at Ancient DNA sub forum where at the top of the sub forum someone released the ydna calls of 2500 samples from many different papers. This one is of note:

R31.SG Italy_LateAntiquity.SG R1b1a1b1a1a2e2. It appears to be DF19 and I don't know if you guys know about this sample.

Yeah, that's R31 (aka RMPR31) -- Mausoleo di Augusto c. 410 AD. He's a DF19>Z302 and may have been buried around the same time the Mausoleo got plundered (along with the rest of Rome) by Alaric's forces. Autosomally, he looks pretty Norwegian+British.

Webb
06-04-2020, 02:05 PM
Yeah, that's R31 (aka RMPR31) -- Mausoleo di Augusto c. 410 AD. He's a DF19>Z302 and may have been buried around the same time the Mausoleo got plundered (along with the rest of Rome) by Alaric's forces. Autosomally, he looks pretty Norwegian+British.

Ok. Cool. I wasn't sure if the sample was already known to be DF19.

Dewsloth
06-04-2020, 02:41 PM
Ok. Cool. I wasn't sure if the sample was already known to be DF19.

Yeah, I flipped out when the Rome paper came out. :lol: He's only the second "ancient" DF19 in a published paper that I know of. The third will be VK333 - a Viking from the Margaryan et al. Viking paper when it's finally published and the data released. the prelim only says VK333 is DF19, no subclade info.

GOM
06-09-2020, 07:04 AM
As the percentage of DF19+ tests in any country could be swamped by haplogroups other than P312, it seems the most useful indicator of the predominance of DF19 is the DF19/P312 ratio as shown on the map below. The Benelux countries show the greatest concentration of DF19, but the recruitment factor amongst the Verelst family accounts for some of this. The high numbers in the Benelux countries and Germany may only reflect favourable locations for relatively few descendants of DF19 to prosper after DF19 appeared some 4,500 ybp.

37837

There are also some interesting trends when plotting DF19% vs. P312% for each country as shown below. The southern European countries show a much lower proportion of DF19 than the northern countries. The countries of the British Isles fall somewhere between the two, possibly reflecting their origin from a mixture of sources. I am still pondering what it all means, but the strong trend evident in the northern countries (R-squared= 0.88) seems to me say something about relatively rapid dispersal of a coherent group from the source area.

37838

The more distant countries in southern Europe and particularly Ireland have a much lower proportion of DF19, presumably because they were populated by haplogroups under P312 other than DF19. I have little knowledge of the possible source areas of those other haplogroups.

For the sake of completeness here are the distribution maps of the three sub-clades under DF19 listed by FTDNA. DF88 dominates with 83.1% of DF19 in Europe. It shows quite a similar distribution to that of DF19 itself:

37943

Z302 comprises 15.7% of DF19. It is more prominent in countries at the periphery of the range of df19:

37941

Z39380 forms a very small sub-clade (1.2% of DF19 in Europe) and has only been reported in Ireland and England. It is thus even more remote from the assumed origin of DF19 in northern Germany/southern Scandinavia:

37942

Dewsloth
06-09-2020, 02:24 PM
^^ Interesting, given the Italian Z302s, that the only "ancient" sample of Z302 is from Rome and perhaps contemporaneous with the 410AD Sack of Rome by the Visigoths, and possible looting of the Mausoleo di Augusto.
He was R1b-P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193* (xCTS2975) - different subclade than the FTDNA members with Italian MDKA.
He is also the only ancient DF19 found south of Hanover Germany (the other two are York and Öland, Sweden).
Despite the southern burial location RMPR31 autosomally looks like a modern Norwegian/Brit mix.

As for Z39380, maybe some day we'll get some answers as to whether they were earlier crossers of the Channel or about the same as the rest of DF19, but all their continental lines expired.

GOM
06-10-2020, 02:50 AM
Sorry, I may have misled you. The "n'" on the maps refers to the number of samples in DF19 whose sub-clade have been characterised. There are thus two DF19+ with an MDKA in Italy, one is DF88+ (and Z29041+), the other is Z302+ (and FT162753+). The latter is indeed from a different sub-clade than the wanderer who ended his days in the Mausoleo di Augusto. A distant cousin from the same sub-clade turned west and ended up in Wales, while at least one soul from a parent sub-clade Z43178 made his way to Norway. A lot has happened over the last 4,000 years or so.

britslav
07-24-2020, 03:59 AM
Many thanks to all contributors of this thread and the sharing of data concerning DF19. I have been logging in occasionally to gather the latest on this paternal haplogroup. You folks have given me the most current shop talk on the subject. Outside this thread there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about DF19. I appreciate it. I descend from a paternal line that leads back to 17th century Colonial America, and then back to England, possibly Lincolnshire. After the Korean War, my father and his paternal uncle brought DF19 from Northern Ohio to the surf of Southern California. Another of many family migrations of this Germanic haplogroup.

rafc
09-21-2020, 11:44 AM
Hi, I was looking for some help on DF19. I'm currently doing some work on a number of scientific samples from the Netherlands and Belgium. As you may know there is quite some DF19 there. I have several samples that are positive for SNP's like: Z39867, Z39868, Z39869, etc, Z40131 & Z40131 and BY50619, BY50620, BY50622, BY50624. So on Yfull that seems to point to this branch: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z21280/, but to my surprise these SNP's don't seem to belong to any branch at FTDNA (unless I've not found the right branch). Do you guys have any info on these SNPs?

Dewsloth
09-21-2020, 02:13 PM
Hi, I was looking for some help on DF19. I'm currently doing some work on a number of scientific samples from the Netherlands and Belgium. As you may know there is quite some DF19 there. I have several samples that are positive for SNP's like: Z39867, Z39868, Z39869, etc, Z40131 & Z40131 and BY50619, BY50620, BY50622, BY50624. So on Yfull that seems to point to this branch: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z21280/, but to my surprise these SNP's don't seem to belong to any branch at FTDNA (unless I've not found the right branch). Do you guys have any info on these SNPs?

Quick grab off the Block Tree at FTDNA. Yfull is correct that they are part of Z21280:
39681

You may be looking at the DF19 member group site which hasn't been updated with all of the Block Tree calls. This group is also part of the same parent BY44243/FT354149 subclade group that the VK333 Oland sample belongs to.
Bonny/Bohne (the Danish sample on the right) is actually a Z21280 but there aren't enough on the Big Tree yet for it to show as a SNP there:
https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=3410&star=false

rafc
09-21-2020, 03:39 PM
Thanks! I was looking at the tree, but couldn't find it because of too many nocalls upstream.

rafc
09-21-2020, 04:48 PM
With that I could finish the DF19 part, it looks like this (classification according to Yfull, and if deeper classification was possible on FTDNA it's indicated as >...>):
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>FGC29974>S22748>…>Z38442>S23999
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>FGC29974>Z30474>…>S15641
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>FGC29974>Z30474>…>Z38442>FGC29961
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>…>Z21380>BY42641>Z41639>S18811
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>…>Z21380>BY42641>Z41639>S18811
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>…>Z21380>BY42641>Z41639>S18811
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>L644>…>Z17115
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>L644>…>Z17115>BY207485
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>L644>…>Z17115>BY207485
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>S9287>S21149
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>S9287>Z17125>...>Z17123>Z17126>Z40622>Z40621>Z40619>BY145862
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>Z21280~
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>Z21280>…>Z39867>Z39868>Z40131>BY50614
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>Z21280>…>Z39867>Z39868>Z40131>BY50614
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>Y3096>Y6234>S4268>Y6237>Z21280>…>Z39867>Z39868>Z40855
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF99>BY3449
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF99>BY3449>…>FT4523>FT76045
Hg R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>DF99>Y5047>S16136>S16027>…>BY67383>S15801

Any thoughts are welcome.

Dewsloth
09-21-2020, 05:13 PM
I was hoping you'd find more Z43162 ;)

One thing to note is Yfull can't/doesn't "see" BY44243/FT354149.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21637-Ancient-(aDNA)-Samples-in-yfull&p=701908#post701908

It also "thinks" S17075 and L644 are equivalent, but Driffield "Roman Britain" 6DRIF23 is S17075+ and L644-
https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1369

Poster
09-26-2020, 11:05 PM
I’m S15641+ myself alongside with 5 others on FTDNA. 5 of us have MDKA in England and one individual has MDKA in Alsace.

Your sample is from the Low Countries? Thanks for your research.