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sktibo
03-11-2017, 03:37 AM
This thread is a fun way to see just how Anglo, Saxon, and Scandinavian you are* using your Living DNA results in combination with the data for each region from the POBI. Take your regions, and use them to get an estimate on how much of each category apply to you in total. For example, if you got 10% Cornwall, then from that you would get 0.76% Saxon.
*It should be completely obvious that this is an estimate. If you have a problem with this methodology please do not post your criticisms here. This thread is intended to be something fun to do with your British Living DNA results, not a discussion as to the validity of the results from the POBI. Thanks.

In our previous discussion, we were unable to classify what exactly we should call the remainder. The word "Celtic" came up a lot, but it seemed likely there were other factors, Normans to name one, which may also be mixed in with this remainder. I think it would be best to simply refer to the amount which is not attributed to Scandinavians, Angles, Saxons, or Danes as "Remainder" for the time being. This remainder is: GER6, BEL7, BEL11, FRA12, FRA14, FRA17, SFS31. I'm going to use the average between the Orkney regions, the South Welsh regions, and the NE Scottish regions. Whether or not you would like to add your own percentages to this thread, I hope this spreadsheet information I've transcribed will be of some use or interest. Credit to Avalon for locating the POBI percentages spreadsheet.

A detailed example in case its not 100% clear as to what the idea is: 26.2% was assigned to Northumbria on my Living DNA test. 4.2% is GER3, 10.4% is DEN18, and 12.4% is Scandinavian. So, of this 26.2%, 3.248% is Scandinavia, 1.1% is Saxon, and 2.724% is Anglian or Danish. 19.128% is the Remainder. Do this for the remaining POBI Britain percentages you have to get your total.

PLEASE refer to this document if you have not read it already: http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl6.pdf (Really folks, I'm begging you, be familiar with the material before asking any questions about it here)

None of this information is anything I have created myself, please note that GER3 (what I call Saxon) is referred to as Anglo Saxon, and what I call Angles & Danes (DEN18) is also referred to as Anglo Saxon. My reasoning for calling GER3 Saxon is because of higher percentages in Devon and Cornwall than in the more northern parts of England, such as Northumbria, which have relatively higher percentages of DEN18. The kingdom of Wessex was located in SW England, and seeing that Devon has high GER3, I have made the assumption of it being Saxon. Northumbria, as we know, was ruled by Angles, and has a much higher percentage of DEN18 than GER3. Thus, I conclude that it is reasonable to label DEN18 as Angles and Danes. It is not my intention for my own choice of terminology to be a point of discussion. If you don't like it or don't agree with it, call it whatever you like. A safe bet is just "Anglo-Saxon" for both of these, as that's what the POBI does in their paper. I took areas with multiple regions (NE Scotland 1 & 2 for example) and taking the average of those two regions to get the result I have listed for NE Scotland. Also note that it appears the Cumbria and Northumbria had their values switched on the excel sheet, so I reversed them here to correct that. After examining pie charts and graphs from the POBI it was obvious that this was a slight mistake on the part of whoever compiled the excel document.

Cornwall:
GER3 (Saxon): 7.6%
GER6: 11.7%
BEL7: 0.4%
BEL11: 6.3%
FRA12: 0%
FRA14: 24.5%
FRA17: 32.9%
DEN18 (Angles & Danes): 9.2%
SFS31: 2.5%
Scandinavian Total: 4.9%

Devon:
GER3 (Saxon): 11.1%
GER6: 11.7%
BEL7: 1.2%
BEL11: 7.2%
FRA12: 0%
FRA14: 16.5%
FRA17: 32%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 11.1%
SFS31: 2.6%
Scandinavian Total: 6.6%

Central/South England:
GER3 (Saxon): 10.4%
GER6: 16.2%
BEL7: 0.5%
BEL11: 9%
FRA12: 0%
FRA14: 9%
FRA17: 33.6%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 11.3%
SFS31: 1.2%
Scandinavian Total: 9%

Welsh Borders:
GER3 (Saxon): 9.1%
GER6: 18.8%
BEL7: 0.7%
BEL11: 7.8%
FRA12: 0%
FRA14: 18.4%
FRA17: 25.4%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes) 10.1%
SFS31: 2.2%
Scandinavian Total: 7.5%

West Yorkshire:
GER3 (Saxon): 8.3%
GER6: 24.8%
BEL7: 0.7%
BEL11: 10.9%
FRA12: 0%
FRA14: 12.2%
FRA17: 18%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 11.8%
SFS31: 2.1%
Scandinavian Total: 10.7%

Northumbria:
GER3 (Saxon): 4.2%
GER6: 20.5%
BEL7: 1%
BEL11: 8.1%
FRA12: 0%
FRA14: 16.6%
FRA17: 24.7%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 10.4%
SFS31: 2.2%
Scandinavian Total: 12.4%

Cumbria:
GER3 (Saxon): 2.9%
GER6: 21.1%
BEL7: 0%
BEL11: 11.3%
FRA12: 0%
FRA14: 16.8%
FRA17: 22.4%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 10.5%
SFS31: 2.6%
Scandinavian Total: 12.4%

South Wales (Combined N & S Pembrokeshire):
GER3 (Saxon): 0%
GER6: 26.8%
BEL7: 0%
BEL11: 8.5%
FRA12: 8.25%
FRA14: 37.7%
FRA17: 0%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 5.7%
SFS31: 5.15%
Scandinavian Total: 8%

North Wales:
GER3 (Saxon): 0%
GER6: 32.4%
BEL7: 0.5%
BEL11: 5.5%
FRA12: 3.2%
FRA14: 38.3%
FRA17: 0%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 3.6%
SFS31: 7.1%
Scandinavian Total: 9.4%

Northeast Scotland (Combined NE Scotland 1 & 2):
GER3 (Saxon): 2.2%
GER6: 17.85%
BEL7: 0.5%
BEL11: 10.3%
FRA12: 0%
FRA14: 21.35%
FRA17: 20.9%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 7.05%
SFS31: 3.7%
Scandinavian Total: 16.1%

Southwest Scotland:
GER3 (Saxon): 1.6%
GER6: 22.1%
BEL7: 0.1%
BEL11: 9.3%
FRA12: 6%
FRA14: 25.3%
FRA17: 8.5%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 7.6%
SFS31: 4%
Scandinavian Total: 15.5%

Northwest Scotland:
GER3 (Saxon): 0%
GER6: 12.8%
BEL7: 0%
BEL11: 5.8%
FRA12: 5%
FRA14: 32.1%
FRA17: 17.4%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 2.8%
SFS31: 2.9%
Scandinavian Total: 21.5%

Orkney (Combined Westray, Orkney1 & Orkney2):
GER3 (Saxon): 1.06%
GER6: 14.8%
BEL7: 0.3%
BEL11: 8.43%
FRA12: 0.26%
FRA14: 22.43%
FRA17: 16.6%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 6.4%
SFS31: 2.9%
Scandinavian Total: 26.83%

SOURCE: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature14230.html#supplementary-information
Supplementary Table 4. Requires Excel.

Adrian Stevenson
03-11-2017, 06:38 AM
Thanks for this.

I will certainly add my results here once they come in during early April.

Cheers, Ade.

A Norfolk L-M20
03-11-2017, 03:55 PM
The problem is, that this is referencing to present day populations - not to these historical populations. So I'm not sure which modern populations are being classed as Anglo-Saxon, etc.

So I'll let you sort that out for me if you don't mind?

Ger3 (Saxon) 7.5%
Ger6 7.8%

Bel7 0.3%
Bel11 6.7%

FRA12 0
FRA14 7.6%
FRA17 24.3%

DEN18 (Angles/Danes) 8.6%

SFS31 0.9%

Scandinavian Total 7.1%

That is the total averages (rounded) from my assigned "British sub regions", as I see them.

Living DNA also gave me:

Scandinavian 5%
Germanic 2%
Unassigned Great Britain & Ireland 3.5%
Unassigned Europe 9.7%

and of course, that enigmatic
Tuscany 10%

sktibo
03-11-2017, 06:39 PM
"the most obvious contribution representing the Anglo Saxons is EU3 (pink) [labeled GER3 here and on the bar graph] from north and west Germany. ... Denmark (EU18 dark red) [DEN18] is another clear candidate for an Anglo-Saxon contribution." See page 8, http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org left side of page, "March newsletter 2015."
We are using the POBI, which, if i understand it correctly, is based off of modern populations. I did include a note asking to refrain from this kind of discussion (such as is the POBI valid?) On this thread. I think that'd be a fantastic topic for another one. But for the purpose of this one, I don't think it's going to do much good, as the data is already posted here and so the thread is committed to some degree to using the POBI data.

So GER3 comes from NW and N Germany, and DEN18 is from Denmark. Both can be classed as Anglo Saxon, but I decided to split them into Saxon and Angle because GER3 peaks in Devon, which we know to be associated with Saxons (was it Wessex?)

A Norfolk L-M20
03-11-2017, 07:09 PM
"the most obvious contribution representing the Anglo Saxons is EU3 (pink) [labeled GER3 here and on the bar graph] from north and west Germany. ... Denmark (EU18 dark red) [DEN18] is another clear candidate for an Anglo-Saxon contribution." See page 8, http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org left side of page, "March newsletter 2015."
We are using the POBI, which, if i understand it correctly, is based off of modern populations. I did include a note asking to refrain from this kind of discussion (such as is the POBI valid?) On this thread. I think that'd be a fantastic topic for another one. But for the purpose of this one, I don't think it's going to do much good, as the data is already posted here and so the thread is committed to some degree to using the POBI data.

So GER3 comes from NW and N Germany, and DEN18 is from Denmark. Both can be classed as Anglo Saxon, but I decided to split them into Saxon and Angle because GER3 peaks in Devon, which we know to be associated with Saxons (was it Wessex?)

So where do we put the three French and two Belgian references? Are we sure that none of them share ancestry via Anglo-Saxon? I believe that there have been references to the Frankish tribes. Also, we know that the admixture has continued all around the North Sea, Channel, Irish Sea, and all over Western Europe. I accept though, that this is for fun. So, where would you suggest that we draw lines ha ha?

A Norfolk L-M20
03-11-2017, 07:17 PM
I quite fancy the Dutch Lowlands or Netherlands as one of the sources of the Anglo Saxon immigration event. At least in SE England. It's so close, and so similar in topography and culture to East Anglia. We know that there was a lot of exchange in East Anglia with the Netherlands in more recent times - the later medieval and post medieval - even in the 20th Century. The Haak Cambridge study 2016 suggested that the nearest two modern populations to their Anglo-Saxon atDNA was the Dutch and then the Danish. Then Belgium isn't much more than a stones throw from Kent. I've long thought that the region of Angeln (Schleswig-Holstein) on the Baltic coast was a strange place for the "Angles" to all come from.

sktibo
03-11-2017, 07:20 PM
I quite fancy the Dutch Lowlands or Netherlands as one of the sources of the Anglo Saxon immigration event. At least in SE England. It's so close, and so similar in topography and culture to East Anglia. We know that there was a lot of exchange in East Anglia with the Netherlands in more recent times - the later medieval and post medieval - even in the 20th Century. The Haak Cambridge study 2016 suggested that the nearest two modern populations to their Anglo-Saxon atDNA was the Dutch and then the Danish. Then Belgium isn't much more than a stones throw from Kent. I've long thought that the region of Angeln (Schleswig-Holstein) on the Baltic coast was a strange place for the "Angles" to all come from.

14484

This image should clear things up better than I'd be able to explain them. I also really wish they had a Dutch sample included in this, it seems like an oversight that they didn't appear to collect data from the Netherlands. But this is what we have for now... here's to hoping for the future? It could really change these results.

Edit: Norfolk, you're a genius! I noticed that although the Netherlands had what looked like some Belgian green circles in the south, in the west and closer to the middle, it looks like there's some dark blue FRA17 Circles... and South / Central England is very high indeed in FRA17. Perhaps this French cluster is actually one which overlaps with the Netherlands? that would be a great explanation as to why this region is highest in FRA17, especially considering the geography. We should get Avalon in on this, we were speculating previously it could be a Norman contribution... Now I'm leaning towards the Dutch. Of course, if this speculation is true that would be a massive change - it would mean that the English aren't mostly pre-Roman (or whatever you want to call it, "Celtic"), it would equate to an average of 64.3% of the SC England cluster being "Germanic" perhaps... (Something I wouldn't be thrilled about, being biased towards all things "Celtic") ... Of course I recognize that it could also be a mixture of many things.

A Norfolk L-M20
03-11-2017, 07:32 PM
Ahh, that's good. Well I'm going to include in my AS mix, Bel11 (which is pretty much Dutch), Ger 3, Ger 6. If I add Living DNA Germanic to it: my Anglo-Saxon is 24%

As for Anglo-Danish... I'm adding Scandinavian Total, Den18, and my Living DNA Scandinavian to suggest my Anglo-Danish (Viking if you like) is: 21%

Of course, some of that could belong in the Anglo-Saxon.

AnnieD
03-11-2017, 07:32 PM
So GER3 comes from NW and N Germany, and DEN18 is from Denmark. Both can be classed as Anglo Saxon, but I decided to split them into Saxon and Angle because GER3 peaks in Devon, which we know to be associated with Saxons (was it Wessex?)

I believe that I understand your goal: See if medieval Germanic invader genes still reside in modern British people. Just because a tester has matches in a population that POBI reports as likely having 10-40% A-S heritage doesn’t mean that real, modern testers still have this DNA. If I'm going down the right path, then I am afraid that I read the Devon population on LivingDNA site as taking a little detour:

“Devon representing a distinct genetic signature within the British Isles, with different ancestry from both Cornwall to the west and the rest of England to the East. Devon’s position on the border between Celtic and Germanic populations has influenced the genetics of the Devonians – its geographic location enabled its people to resist against invaders for longer than most, leading to a stronger connection to Britain’s ancient past.”

Hence, it doesn’t seem to be high in Saxon blood. However, I think that almost all of the British populations on the POBI showed some German % which may relate more to this genetic affinity per LivingDNA, e.g. not the N. German category:

“The groups migrations from Europe in the Middle Stone Age have been genetically connected to people from Germany, Belgium and France today.”

Perhaps your Devon GER3 % does not fully contradict the LivingDNA population summary as significant vs. immaterial thresholds may vary by opinion or training.

sktibo
03-11-2017, 07:52 PM
I believe that I understand your goal: See if medieval Germanic invader genes still reside in modern British people. Just because a tester has matches in a population that POBI reports as likely having 10-40% A-S heritage doesn’t mean that real, modern testers still have this DNA. If I'm going down the right path, then I am afraid that I read the Devon population on LivingDNA site as taking a little detour:

“Devon representing a distinct genetic signature within the British Isles, with different ancestry from both Cornwall to the west and the rest of England to the East. Devon’s position on the border between Celtic and Germanic populations has influenced the genetics of the Devonians – its geographic location enabled its people to resist against invaders for longer than most, leading to a stronger connection to Britain’s ancient past.”

Hence, it doesn’t seem to be high in Saxon blood. However, I think that almost all of the British populations on the POBI showed some German % which may relate more to this genetic affinity per LivingDNA, e.g. not the N. German category:

“The groups migrations from Europe in the Middle Stone Age have been genetically connected to people from Germany, Belgium and France today.”

Perhaps your Devon GER3 % does not fully contradict the LivingDNA population summary as significant vs. immaterial thresholds may vary by opinion or training.

Hi Annie, I'm afraid that you do not understand my goal, the POBI has already determined that the genes of Germanic invaders do reside in the British populations today. My goal was to transcribe the data from the POBI regions into percentage form so that people here would be able to look at their Living DNA British results in another way.

1. Living DNA used the reference samples from the POBI
2. Therefore, the data that we get from Living DNA's British regions can be used in conjunction with the POBI spreadsheet information (As an estimate, which I did note in the original post)
3. This isn't "my" GER3, the only way any of this data has been altered is in order to find an average between regions so that it more closely matches the Living DNA regions. For example, Orkney is the average between the averages of Westray, Orkney1, and Orkney2.
4. As I explained above, in the POBI newsletter, GER3 (Also called EU3, it's the same category with a different name depending on which chart you're looking at) correlates to North and North-West Germany. Devon is the region with the highest amount of this GER3/EU3.

sktibo
03-11-2017, 08:09 PM
Ahh, that's good. Well I'm going to include in my AS mix, Bel11 (which is pretty much Dutch), Ger 3, Ger 6. If I add Living DNA Germanic to it: my Anglo-Saxon is 24%

As for Anglo-Danish... I'm adding Scandinavian Total, Den18, and my Living DNA Scandinavian to suggest my Anglo-Danish (Viking if you like) is: 21%

Of course, some of that could belong in the Anglo-Saxon.

GER6 is almost certainly not Germanic, despite it being from Germany. It peaks in North Wales, and some have speculated that it is related to Bell-Beaker people.

MitchellSince1893
03-11-2017, 09:45 PM
GER6 is almost certainly not Germanic, despite it being from Germany. It peaks in North Wales, and some have speculated that it is related to Bell-Beaker people.

Is this peak near Abergele, Wales?


Roman legacy in DNA of Welsh men?

A more likely Roman genetic legacy in the British Isles lies in the town of Abergele on the northern coast of Wales, where a curiously high percentage (as much as one third) of males bear the Y-chromosome haplogroup E1b1b1a1b (or E-V13). E-V13 originated in northeastern Africa around 18,000 years ago and entered Europe at some time via the Balkans. It remains common in the Balkans and Italy today. Why the men of Abergele carry the rare marker is not yet known, but its high frequency could be due to the settlement of the town during the 1st to 4th centuries AD by Roman soldiers. E-V13 is largely absent in central England, which could indicate a replacement of Romano-British people by Anglo-Saxons from the 5th century AD.
http://www.abroadintheyard.com/surprising-ancestral-origins-revealed-by-dna-testing/

sktibo
03-11-2017, 09:50 PM
Is this peak near Abergele, Wales?

I have no idea. In the North Wales cluster from the POBI project, the highest amount of GER6 is found. You could examine a POBI chart to see the around about where the individuals used for the cluster were born.

deadly77
03-12-2017, 01:36 AM
Based on your method, I'm coming up with:

GER3 (Saxon): 4.2%
DEN18 (Angle/Dane): 7.2%
Total Scandinavian: 7.8%

sktibo
03-12-2017, 04:01 AM
I get
3.71 GER3
6.67 DEN18
7.75 Scandinavia
+ 11.2 Germanic in the form of misplaced East Anglia & SE England
Total of 29.33
FRA17: 16.64,
if added to this I get 45.97

Jessie
03-12-2017, 05:33 AM
Is this peak near Abergele, Wales?


http://www.abroadintheyard.com/surprising-ancestral-origins-revealed-by-dna-testing/

If Ger6 is speculated to be Bell Beakers it won't be E-V13 as all Bell Beakers that have been tested are R1b and also have a Steppe component.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-12-2017, 07:25 AM
I quite fancy the Dutch Lowlands or Netherlands as one of the sources of the Anglo Saxon immigration event. At least in SE England. It's so close, and so similar in topography and culture to East Anglia. We know that there was a lot of exchange in East Anglia with the Netherlands in more recent times - the later medieval and post medieval - even in the 20th Century. The Haak Cambridge study 2016 suggested that the nearest two modern populations to their Anglo-Saxon atDNA was the Dutch and then the Danish. Then Belgium isn't much more than a stones throw from Kent. I've long thought that the region of Angeln (Schleswig-Holstein) on the Baltic coast was a strange place for the "Angles" to all come from.

Someone made a comment, possibly on this Forum but I didn't note the source at the time. It was along the lines of there was so much migration in Germany after the Second World War, particularly from East to West that the modern day populations of Holland and Denmark may be closer to the early British Anglo Saxon population than the post-war population in Germany. It certainly was a major event in terms of migration. John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-12-2017, 09:53 AM
Is this peak near Abergele, Wales?


http://www.abroadintheyard.com/surprising-ancestral-origins-revealed-by-dna-testing/

Whenever anything unexpected comes up, it always seems to get attributed to the "Romans". Maybe it's a bit too convenient an explanation sometimes. :) John

Dubhthach
03-12-2017, 09:56 AM
Don't forget their calculators produced radically different results when they included their Ireland sample cluster. Of course ye ask me the methodology was flawed, as they should have created all the European clusters with the British samples in the pot. Instead they acted like Britain was a "black hole" generated the clusters around it and than use those to analyse the PoBI samples -- this ignores fact that obviously the British population would have influence on surronding populations just as much they would have influence on it.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/POBI/POBI-original-clusters.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/POBI/Ireland-RoyalSociety.pnghttp://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/POBI/POBI-16-17.png


http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Breakdown_of_UK_DNA.gif

The "French" Cluster 17 above is obviously a Brythonic/Briton cluster that peaks in modern Welsh and in case of France peaks in NW where a Brythonic language is still spoken to this day (eg. Breton)

avalon
03-12-2017, 10:15 AM
14484

This image should clear things up better than I'd be able to explain them. I also really wish they had a Dutch sample included in this, it seems like an oversight that they didn't appear to collect data from the Netherlands. But this is what we have for now... here's to hoping for the future? It could really change these results.

Edit: Norfolk, you're a genius! I noticed that although the Netherlands had what looked like some Belgian green circles in the south, in the west and closer to the middle, it looks like there's some dark blue FRA17 Circles... and South / Central England is very high indeed in FRA17. Perhaps this French cluster is actually one which overlaps with the Netherlands? that would be a great explanation as to why this region is highest in FRA17, especially considering the geography. We should get Avalon in on this, we were speculating previously it could be a Norman contribution... Now I'm leaning towards the Dutch. Of course, if this speculation is true that would be a massive change - it would mean that the English aren't mostly pre-Roman (or whatever you want to call it, "Celtic"), it would equate to an average of 64.3% of the SC England cluster being "Germanic" perhaps... (Something I wouldn't be thrilled about, being biased towards all things "Celtic") ... Of course I recognize that it could also be a mixture of many things.

Funnily enough sktibo, when the POBI paper first came out in 2015 I posted here at anthrogenica about the possibility that there may be Anglo-Saxon "like" (let's call it Germanic) ancestry in the FRA17 component. My reasoning at the time was that the Northern French have Frankish ancestry which may well be similar to Anglo-Saxon ancestry given Germanic roots. Also, regarding the Netherlands, I remember POBI saying there was simply no Netherlands sample available to them.

Just on the label "Anglo-Saxon" POBI also said in their supplementary that genetically this broadly comprises various Germanic tribes; Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Frisians and Danish Vikings as there probably isn't much between them genetically.

I think the FRA17 component is awkward because it is a mixture of lots of different things. Iron Age Northern France/Belgium (Gaul) was probably genetically close to southern England as there were cultural similiarities going back a 1000 years, add to that late Iron Age Belgae, you've probably go the bulk of FRA17 before the Romans arrived. In historic times, some of could well be Germanic migrations plus Normans and other later medieval influences.

Dubhthach
03-12-2017, 10:55 AM
We really need both Bronze age and Iron age samples from what is now France. This would allow us to
(a) show if there is continuity between Bronze and Iron age in what is now France
(b) show what level of relationship these have to the Iron age samples (And Romano-British) ones we have from Britain

If you could get samples from central to Northern France from period around 300-200BC you'd imagine it would allow you to model modern French as Gaulish population with x% of admixture from other populations (eg. Roman period, Franks etc.)

firemonkey
03-12-2017, 11:25 AM
Looks interesting but too mathematically challenged to do this.

My regional breakdown

Central England 17.2
Aberdeenshire 16.2
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 1.7
Southeast England 7.1
Northwest England 7
Devon 5.5
South England 4.7
Northwest Scotland 3.7
Northumbria 3.6
North Yorkshire 3.3
Ireland 3.2
North Wales 2.4
Lincolnshire 2.1
Orkney 1.8
South Yorkshire 1.8
Cornwall 1.4

avalon
03-12-2017, 05:24 PM
Don't forget their calculators produced radically different results when they included their Ireland sample cluster. Of course ye ask me the methodology was flawed, as they should have created all the European clusters with the British samples in the pot. Instead they acted like Britain was a "black hole" generated the clusters around it and than use those to analyse the PoBI samples -- this ignores fact that obviously the British population would have influence on surronding populations just as much they would have influence on it.


They probably should have left the Irish ancestral component in but all it really tells us is that the British share Celtic/Bell Beaker ancestry with the Irish. Obviously Scottish Highlands is high in this "Irish" component due to known history but for Central/Southern England that 20% "Irish" is really just shared Celtic, not direct ancestry from Ireland.

POBI were trying to determine the ancient origins of the British so there is some sense in stripping out the Irish component because ultimately both British and Irish derive from continental European sources.

To me, the key point is what happened to the Irish component when they stripped it out. From a quick glance at the figures I would say it got shifted to GER6 which is West Germany and I think a reflection of BB. Also looks like some of it was shifted to FRA17 and NOR/SWE clusters. An analysis of where the Irish component was shifted to may tell us something about Irish ancestry, ie. amount of Viking or Norman or English input in Ireland.

AnnieD
03-12-2017, 08:04 PM
Hi Annie, I'm afraid that you do not understand my goal, the POBI has already determined that the genes of Germanic invaders do reside in the British populations today. My goal was to transcribe the data from the POBI regions into percentage form so that people here would be able to look at their Living DNA British results in another way.

1. Living DNA used the reference samples from the POBI
2. Therefore, the data that we get from Living DNA's British regions can be used in conjunction with the POBI spreadsheet information (As an estimate, which I did note in the original post)
3. This isn't "my" GER3, the only way any of this data has been altered is in order to find an average between regions so that it more closely matches the Living DNA regions. For example, Orkney is the average between the averages of Westray, Orkney1, and Orkney2.
4. As I explained above, in the POBI newsletter, GER3 (Also called EU3, it's the same category with a different name depending on which chart you're looking at) correlates to North and North-West Germany. Devon is the region with the highest amount of this GER3/EU3.

@ Skitbo,
My apologies for missing the point of your novel way of analyzing the POBI / LivingDNA data. :sorry: I think I'm still lost in the peat bogs, but to avoid further derailing your thread, I will just reply that I think I'm on board with your #1-3 synopsis. However, I had the impression that LivingDNA characterized the Devon region as having the ancient Briton signal, or non-Germanic, in spite of, as you point out, the POBI finding the GER3 signal (4: "Devon is the region with the highest amount of this GER3/EU3"). Perhaps it is a matter of degree, but I noted your comment that "GER3 peaks in Devon, which we know to be associated with Saxons (was it Wessex?)". Nevermind me, however, as Avalon & the other posters appear to be doing some good analysis with the results! :thumb:

* Edit: I see the Celtic / Ancient Briton 58% / Germanic 42% statistic in Dubhthach's post #19 below & see how Devon could "peak" in GER3. I misread LivingDNA's reference of this ethnic divide as more of a 'build-the-wall' divide rather than melting-pot. LOL!

sktibo
03-12-2017, 08:23 PM
@ Skitbo,
My apologies for missing the point of your novel way of analyzing the POBI / LivingDNA data. :sorry: I think I'm still lost in the peat bogs, but to avoid further derailing your thread, I will just reply that I think I'm on board with your #1-3 synopsis. However, I had the impression that LivingDNA characterized the Devon region as having the ancient Briton signal, or non-Germanic, in spite of, as you point out, the POBI finding the GER3 signal (4: "Devon is the region with the highest amount of this GER3/EU3"). Perhaps it is a matter of degree, but I noted your comment that "GER3 peaks in Devon, which we know to be associated with Saxons (was it Wessex?)". Nevermind me, however, as Avalon & the other posters appear to be doing some good analysis with the results! :thumb:

Hey Annie, thank you, and it's all good!
Some of the living DNA write ups are far from perfect unfortunately. Jessie quoted from the Ireland write up in another thread and the information they had used was pretty dated or off. It's not that Devon has no pre Germanic signature, it does, so does the large red cluster. Devon just also happens to get the highest average for what is most likely attributed to what we call Saxons. (Note, not Anglo Saxons, or other Germanic groups, strictly, Saxons). When comparing it to the central English red cluster, IIRC it's one of the last to split apart.
That said, POBI's analysis of British DNA was that in England, only 10-40% of modern DNA was found to be Anglo Saxon. This is based on using GER3 and DEN18 as Anglo Saxon, but I think some people here may be interpreting their results differently than that.

"The most obvious contribution representing the Anglo-Saxons is EU3 (pink) from North and North West Germany. That is consistent with the lack of evidence for Anglo-Saxon incursions into Wales. Denmark (EU18 dark red) is another clear candidate for an Anglo-Saxon contribution. Based on these two contributions, the best estimates for the proportion of presumed Anglo-Saxon ancestry in the large eastern, central and southern England cluster (red squares) are a maximum of 40% and could be as little as 10%."

This is why I suggested using just these two (GER3 & DEN18) along with Scandinavia to calculate a "Germanic" percentage. GER3 and DEN18 are what the people who did the POBI project considered to be representative of "Anglo-Saxon" migrants into Britain post Rome. The other categories, FRA17 included, were thought to be pre-Roman migrations or populations. Of course, there is lively discussion as to what FRA17 may be, and I think it's a good idea to consider a different origin than suggested by POBI for this cluster.

I added up the spreadsheet numbers for these two Anglo Saxon components in the Central England cluster, and found that 20.6-22.9% was the combined range for these categories. I can't help but wonder where they got the 10-40% from, when they specified their estimate was based upon these two. 18.1-26.2% was the combined range for Devon, averaging 22.15%, while SC England's average comes out to 21.75%. It is interesting and unexpected that Devon's appears to be higher than Central England's.

sktibo
03-12-2017, 08:36 PM
Don't forget their calculators produced radically different results when they included their Ireland sample cluster. Of course ye ask me the methodology was flawed, as they should have created all the European clusters with the British samples in the pot. Instead they acted like Britain was a "black hole" generated the clusters around it and than use those to analyse the PoBI samples -- this ignores fact that obviously the British population would have influence on surronding populations just as much they would have influence on it.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Breakdown_of_UK_DNA.gif

The "French" Cluster 17 above is obviously a Brythonic/Briton cluster that peaks in modern Welsh and in case of France peaks in NW where a Brythonic language is still spoken to this day (eg. Breton)

So they previously had a cluster which was indentifiably Goidelic and one which was Brythonic? Is that correct? I'm sorry they changed that, would have been more interesting, at least to me. Do you think there could be some correlation between GER6 and the old FRA17 since both appear to peak in North Wales? It also looks significantly lower in NW Scotland than SW Scotland. Connection to the old kingdom of alt clut perhaps?

Also, that table doesn't appear to add up. Basing the numbers on the highlands category, it looks like 18 Belgium, 19 Germ, 20 Germ, and 21 Denmark along with Norway and Sweden equal Germanic. It claims 50/50 for England, but I added them up and got 54 Germanic for England and 46 Ancient British. For Devon, I get 46 Germanic, 54 Ancient British... I can't help myself, I'll add the rest up:

Cornwall: 33 Germanic, 67 Ancient Briton
F. of Dean: 46 Germanic, 54 Ancient British
Lincoln: 53 Germanic, 47 Ancient British
W. York: 48 Germanic, 52 Ancient British
Northumbria: 43 Germanic, 57 Ancient British
Cumbria: 42 Germanic, 58 Ancient British
SW Scotland: 30 Germanic, 70 Ancient
NW Wales: 10 Germanic, 90 Ancient
Cheshire: 44 Germanic, 56 Ancient
SW Wales: 18 Germanic, 82 Ancient
Highlands: 11 Germanic, 89 Ancient (The only one where the numbers add up to the total presented on the chart)
NE Scotland: 35 Germanic, 65 Ancient
Orkney: 39 Germanic, 61 Ancient.

So either the person who compiled this made mathematical errors, I'm missing a number they used, or they were biased towards a higher number of Celtic/ Ancient British

firemonkey
03-12-2017, 10:08 PM
Could someone do my breakdown of Scandinavian etc for me please?

sktibo
03-12-2017, 11:21 PM
Looks interesting but too mathematically challenged to do this.

My regional breakdown

Central England 17.2
Aberdeenshire 16.2
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 1.7
Southeast England 7.1
Northwest England 7
Devon 5.5
South England 4.7
Northwest Scotland 3.7
Northumbria 3.6
North Yorkshire 3.3
Ireland 3.2
North Wales 2.4
Lincolnshire 2.1
Orkney 1.8
South Yorkshire 1.8
Cornwall 1.4

Your SW Scotland you have listed as 1.7, I think yours is higher than that? is that a typo?

Some examples for a few of your regions

Central England 17.2:
1.79% GER3
1.94% DEN18
1.55% Scand.
Aberdeenshire 16.2:
0.36% GER3
1.14% DEN18
2.61% Scand.
SE England 7.1:
0.73% GER3
0.8% DEN18
0.64% Scand.

Here's an explanation, feel free to let me know if you need further clarification
Let's take your Aberdeenshire, it's 16.2. Open a calculator and also have open the first page of this thread. Find NE Scotland, as that corresponds to Living DNA's Aberdeenshire. Scandinavia, for NE Scotland, has an average of 16.1%. On your calculator, punch in 16.2 (Aberdeenshire percentage) X 0.161 (Percentage of Scandinavia in decimal form) This gives you 2.6082, which I rounded up to 2.61. So of your Aberdeenshire 16.2%, 2.61% of that is what we get for our estimated Scandinavian percentage.

firemonkey
03-13-2017, 07:41 AM
@Sktibo SW Scotland should be 10.7(damn keyboard!). I have looked at the first page and am completely lost.

You say :
A detailed example in case its not 100% clear as to what the idea is: 26.2% was assigned to Northumbria on my Living DNA test. 4.2% is GER3, 10.4% is DEN18, and 12.4% is Scandinavian. So, of this 26.2%, 3.248% is Scandinavia, 1.1% is Saxon, and 2.724% is Anglian or Danish. 19.128% is the Remainder. Do this for the remaining POBI Britain percentages you have to get your total.

and:
Northumbria:
GER3 (Saxon): 4.2%
GER6: 20.5%
BEL7: 1%
BEL11: 8.1%
FRA12: 0%
FRA14: 16.6%
FRA17: 24.7%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes): 10.4%
SFS31: 2.2%
Scandinavian Total: 12.4%

From that I am wondering how you got 12.4% Scandinavian as it does not appear as a % in the list.

Also how do the Living dna regions correspond to the POBI regions?

Dubhthach
03-13-2017, 09:50 AM
So they previously had a cluster which was indentifiably Goidelic and one which was Brythonic? Is that correct? I'm sorry they changed that, would have been more interesting, at least to me. Do you think there could be some correlation between GER6 and the old FRA17 since both appear to peak in North Wales? It also looks significantly lower in NW Scotland than SW Scotland. Connection to the old kingdom of alt clut perhaps?



Well you have to remember that their "Cluster 17" ("NW France") and "Cluster 24" ("Irish") were generated in isolation of the British data. This if anything probably makes the Irish cluster stand out as more distinctive, as it was generated by comparing it to the neighbouring continental clusters (eg. France 17, 18 etc.) without any British samples in between.

In reality what they should have done was:
1. Put all the data into one dataset eg. PoBI plus their sample populations
2. Than generate clusters based on totality of data
3. Run something like Finestructure to show interconnection between clusters

Because they treated Britain as a "Blackhole" it's probable that the clusters derived in France and Ireland (and even Belgium) are shifted due to fact they were generated in scenario where the Irish sea stretches to Belgium coast ;)

As for "Cluster 24" I'd imagine if anything it is like the AncestryDNA "Irish" cluster eg. it reflects a wider NW Insular ancestry component that just happens to peak in modern Irish. This could actually be something that dates back to the Bronze age. Some of analysis of Ancestry clusters often state that the "British" cluster was nearly indistinguishable from the "Western European" cluster. That cluster obviously was combined French/Low Lands/German sampleset, in beta update they actually spilt "Western European" into a "Central European" (concentrated in Germany) and a "Western European-British" component eg. French and "British" component cluster together, this if you ask me if anything reminds me of idea of Gallo-Brythonic.

Either way without using actual ancient DNA (such as Hinxton remains ironically found on Welcome Trust campus) or Iron age samples from Continent it's hard to actually say how accurate you can model ancient population input using modern continental populations which have undergone their own levels of migration/genetic drift in the proceeding time. If memory serves me right the PoBI study put the AS admixture at about 700AD!!! (eg. 300+ years after AS migration is generally stated as starting + when we start seeing shift in archaeological record).

firemonkey
03-13-2017, 12:53 PM
Cornwall: Saxon 0.11
Angles & Danes 0.13
Scandinavian 0.07
Remainder 1.09

Devon: Saxon 0.61
Angles and Danes 0.61
Scandinavian 0.36
Remainder 3.92

Northumbria: Saxon 0.15
Angles and Danes 0.37
Scandinavian 0.45
Remainder 2.63


North Wales Saxon 0
Angles and Danes 0.09
Scandinavian 0.23
Remainder 2.08

Southwest Scotland Saxon 0.17
Angles and Danes 0.81
Scandinavian 1.66
Remainder 8.06

Northwest Scotland Saxon 0
Angles and Danes 0.10
Scandinavian 0.80
Remainder 2.80

Orkney Saxon 0.02
Angles and Danes 0.12
Scandinavian 0.48
Remainder 1.18

The ones you did for me

Central England 17.2:
1.79% GER3
1.94% DEN18
1.55% Scand.
11.92% Remainder

Aberdeenshire 16.2:
0.36% GER3
1.14% DEN18
2.61% Scand.
13.09% Remainder

SE England 7.1:
0.73% GER3
0.8% DEN18
0.64% Scand.
4.93% Remainder

I am not sure which other living dna regions should be assigned to which POBI grouping.

From what I have I get

Saxon 3.94%
Angles and Danes 6.11%
Scandinavian 8.85%
Remainder 51.70

If someone could do the other living dna regions I would be most grateful. On the limited results I have been able to do it seems Scandinavian is more prominent for me than Angles/Danes or Saxons. This of course might change with a full list of results.

Jessie
03-13-2017, 12:58 PM
They probably should have left the Irish ancestral component in but all it really tells us is that the British share Celtic/Bell Beaker ancestry with the Irish. Obviously Scottish Highlands is high in this "Irish" component due to known history but for Central/Southern England that 20% "Irish" is really just shared Celtic, not direct ancestry from Ireland.

POBI were trying to determine the ancient origins of the British so there is some sense in stripping out the Irish component because ultimately both British and Irish derive from continental European sources.

To me, the key point is what happened to the Irish component when they stripped it out. From a quick glance at the figures I would say it got shifted to GER6 which is West Germany and I think a reflection of BB. Also looks like some of it was shifted to FRA17 and NOR/SWE clusters. An analysis of where the Irish component was shifted to may tell us something about Irish ancestry, ie. amount of Viking or Norman or English input in Ireland.

Thank you. This is my understanding of why they removed the Irish component and yes I'd love to know what continental input makes up the Irish component as well.

ADW_1981
03-13-2017, 01:38 PM
If Ger6 is speculated to be Bell Beakers it won't be E-V13 as all Bell Beakers that have been tested are R1b and also have a Steppe component.

If it is southern Germany it's possible. Austria has a high rate of E-V13 and it may have been brought in with the R1b guys. Otherwise, the E-V13 may have arrived from Spain? Something I have wondered awhile, and I think we need more Welsh YDNA unless there is a good FTDNA project with a large Welsh sample out there...

Jessie
03-13-2017, 01:55 PM
If it is southern Germany it's possible. Austria has a high rate of E-V13 and it may have been brought in with the R1b guys. Otherwise, the E-V13 may have arrived from Spain? Something I have wondered awhile, and I think we need more Welsh YDNA unless there is a good FTDNA project with a large Welsh sample out there...

But all the talk about Bell Beaker is that it is R1b and all the Bell Beaker tested so far is R1b. I think the E-V13 in Wales is a bit unique and could possibly be from the Romans; possibly some Balkan origin. Ydna E is unusual in the Isles. Isn't it all in one area?

razyn
03-13-2017, 02:40 PM
I think we need more Welsh YDNA unless there is a good FTDNA project with a large Welsh sample out there...
To the extent that the data pre-loaded into Living DNA's bank came from POBI, that problem derives from the fact (or perhaps rumor) that Welsh data was almost exclusively from one very successful instance of the Anglesey Agricultural Show, where the POBI folks had their medical professionals set up. And that's because POBI used blood samples, not cheek swabs. And that's because POBI was funded by the Wellcome Trust; big pharma wants your blood. Not that I don't take my pills, big pharma is better than no pharma, and I'm glad there could be a POBI project, funded somehow. But there is typically an agenda behind the funding of expensive projects, and it's not rare for that to have some unintended consequences. In this case, one of the consequences is gaps in the sample -- visible through blanks on the POBI map for some parts of Scotland, Wales, etc. that had no sampling, because the phlebotomists didn't get there.

sktibo
03-13-2017, 06:15 PM
They probably should have left the Irish ancestral component in but all it really tells us is that the British share Celtic/Bell Beaker ancestry with the Irish. Obviously Scottish Highlands is high in this "Irish" component due to known history but for Central/Southern England that 20% "Irish" is really just shared Celtic, not direct ancestry from Ireland.

POBI were trying to determine the ancient origins of the British so there is some sense in stripping out the Irish component because ultimately both British and Irish derive from continental European sources.

To me, the key point is what happened to the Irish component when they stripped it out. From a quick glance at the figures I would say it got shifted to GER6 which is West Germany and I think a reflection of BB. Also looks like some of it was shifted to FRA17 and NOR/SWE clusters. An analysis of where the Irish component was shifted to may tell us something about Irish ancestry, ie. amount of Viking or Norman or English input in Ireland.

Well, I'm not in complete agreement that GER6 is reflective of this old Irish component. My reasoning is that we see it peak in North Wales and yet it also gets one if the lower scores in NW Scotland, which previously had the highest Irish component for a British region. So that doesn't appear to add up...
Not to say it couldn't be of course. I suspect that none of these continental components match the old components neatly. I don't really have a better candidate for the position.

avalon
03-13-2017, 08:23 PM
Well you have to remember that their "Cluster 17" ("NW France") and "Cluster 24" ("Irish") were generated in isolation of the British data. This if anything probably makes the Irish cluster stand out as more distinctive, as it was generated by comparing it to the neighbouring continental clusters (eg. France 17, 18 etc.) without any British samples in between.

In reality what they should have done was:
1. Put all the data into one dataset eg. PoBI plus their sample populations
2. Than generate clusters based on totality of data
3. Run something like Finestructure to show interconnection between clusters



If they'd used that methodology though that would have created its own problems because you'd end up with Irish and to lesser extent French and Belgian and German clusters showing a strong "British" ancestral component due to shared ancestry with British and this would have made it even more confusing for the researchers to determine British origins.

Britain isn't a genetic black hole but "generally" speaking, throughout history and prehistory, gene flow is from the Continent to Britain, not the other way around if you think about the major ancient migrations such as Neolithic, Celtic/BB, Anglo-Saxon.

I do agree that ancientDNA is the way forward because whichever way you analyse modern DNA, matching it to ancient migrations is difficult.

avalon
03-13-2017, 08:56 PM
Well, I'm not in complete agreement that GER6 is reflective of this old Irish component. My reasoning is that we see it peak in North Wales and yet it also gets one if the lower scores in NW Scotland, which previously had the highest Irish component for a British region. So that doesn't appear to add up...
Not to say it couldn't be of course. I suspect that none of these continental components match the old components neatly. I don't really have a better candidate for the position.

Just looking at the figures again. The Irish component for Scottish Highlands was 63% and when stripped out it appears to shift to other all clusters but mostly to GER6, FRA14 and FRA17. Not sure how to interpret that really.

My thinking on GER6 perhaps being reflective of Bell Beaker is that we would expect North Welsh to have high levels of BB/Celtic ancestry and I can't think of much else that would connect West Germany (Rhineland area i believe) to Wales. Not sure why it is low in Scottish Highlands, it may just come back to that poor Scottish sampling issue again.

sktibo
03-13-2017, 09:06 PM
Just looking at the figures again. The Irish component for Scottish Highlands was 63% and when stripped out it appears to shift to other all clusters but mostly to GER6, FRA14 and FRA17. Not sure how to interpret that really.

My thinking on GER6 perhaps being reflective of Bell Beaker is that we would expect North Welsh to have high levels of BB/Celtic ancestry and I can't think of much else that would connect West Germany (Rhineland area i believe) to Wales. Not sure why it is low in Scottish Highlands, it may just come back to that poor Scottish sampling issue again.

Yeah, that darn Scottish sampling issue could be affecting this. I'll agree with that

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-13-2017, 09:20 PM
If it is southern Germany it's possible. Austria has a high rate of E-V13 and it may have been brought in with the R1b guys. Otherwise, the E-V13 may have arrived from Spain? Something I have wondered awhile, and I think we need more Welsh YDNA unless there is a good FTDNA project with a large Welsh sample out there...

I've been trying to follow this discussion but finding it difficult because of limited knowledge of the technicalities. :)
Purely personal interest but the big question for me (which I may never have the answer to ) is how and when my U106 arrived in Britain ( Welsh border ancestry ) . The prevailing view, which I accept, is that most came during or after the A/S migration period but does this limit consideration of other possibilities, i.e. earlier migration events. Whenever something comes up that doesn't fit expectations it is down to "the Romans" but if we always assume that are we closing ourselves off to other possibilities?
I did actually try to volunteer for the POBI project as I knew my ancestral locations quite a way back although I didn't meet their geographical requirements, I didn't even receive a response. I suppose the answer will be in ancient DNA, but the pace at which that is going, I doubt I will be around long enough to find out. :) John

A Norfolk L-M20
03-14-2017, 10:35 AM
Skitbo

GER3 3.71
DEN18 6.67
Scandinavia 7.75
FRA17: 16.64,

Norfolk

Ger3 (Saxon) 7.5%
FRA17 24.3%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes) 8.6%
Scandinavian Total 7.1%

deadly77

GER3 (Saxon): 4.2%
DEN18 (Angle/Dane): 7.2%
Total Scandinavian: 7.8%

sktibo
03-14-2017, 10:49 AM
Skitbo

GER3 3.71
DEN18 6.67
Scandinavia 7.75
FRA17: 16.64,

Norfolk

Ger3 (Saxon) 7.5%
FRA17 24.3%
DEN18 (Angles/Danes) 8.6%
Scandinavian Total 7.1%

deadly77

GER3 (Saxon): 4.2%
DEN18 (Angle/Dane): 7.2%
Total Scandinavian: 7.8%

Damn Norfolk, that's some serious FRA17 you've got going on. My low numbers are due to me only having about 69% British Ancestry. Add my German ancestors and I'm a good bit more Germanic than that I reckon (though with my bias towards the ancient British side of things I'm tempted to ignore those German ancestors!)

On another note, I was reading this: http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408

This study claims the average Anglo Saxon amount in East England is 38%.. if you take half of the FRA17 component, and add it with DEN18 and GER3 you get 38.5. not saying it's conclusive, but perhaps the divide for FRA17 between "Celtic" and "Germanic" is 50%?

simdadams
03-14-2017, 02:50 PM
If they'd used that methodology though that would have created its own problems because you'd end up with Irish and to lesser extent French and Belgian and German clusters showing a strong "British" ancestral component due to shared ancestry with British and this would have made it even more confusing for the researchers to determine British origins.

Britain isn't a genetic black hole but "generally" speaking, throughout history and prehistory, gene flow is from the Continent to Britain, not the other way around if you think about the major ancient migrations such as Neolithic, Celtic/BB, Anglo-Saxon.

I do agree that ancientDNA is the way forward because whichever way you analyse modern DNA, matching it to ancient migrations is difficult.

Is there a good ancientDNA comparison option, and I suppose is there a good AncientDNA sample base where the AncientdNA is only from British Isles ?

firemonkey
03-14-2017, 03:27 PM
My FR17 = 15.03 . Didn't know which POBI region to use for Ireland, Lincolnshire and Southeast England. Used West Yorkshire for N and S Yorkshire.

sktibo
03-14-2017, 07:42 PM
My FR17 = 15.03 . Didn't know which POBI region to use for Ireland, Lincolnshire and Southeast England. Used West Yorkshire for N and S Yorkshire.

Only British regions work for this, I think west Yorkshire equals south Yorkshire on living (the Yorkshire that looks like the small circle on the living DNA map.. I think that's southern?)

avalon
03-14-2017, 07:48 PM
Well, I'm not in complete agreement that GER6 is reflective of this old Irish component. My reasoning is that we see it peak in North Wales and yet it also gets one if the lower scores in NW Scotland, which previously had the highest Irish component for a British region. So that doesn't appear to add up...
Not to say it couldn't be of course. I suspect that none of these continental components match the old components neatly. I don't really have a better candidate for the position.

Another possible explanation for GER6 might be the Halstatt/Le Tene culture as it was in roughly the same sort of area as the GER6 sample location (Western Germany). Not something I know too much about though and the impact it had on Britain but we're talking Iron Age.

avalon
03-14-2017, 07:55 PM
Is there a good ancientDNA comparison option, and I suppose is there a good AncientDNA sample base where the AncientdNA is only from British Isles ?

We don't have much ancientDNA from Britain. Off the top of my head, there is this one about Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon remains.
http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408

Also there was a Roman Gladiatiors from York study that also included an Iron Age sample. http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326

Unfortunately neither of them were compared to the POBI dataset which would have been really interesting to see.

Calas
03-14-2017, 09:44 PM
Someone made a comment, possibly on this Forum but I didn't note the source at the time. It was along the lines of there was so much migration in Germany after the Second World War, particularly from East to West that the modern day populations of Holland and Denmark may be closer to the early British Anglo Saxon population than the post-war population in Germany. It certainly was a major event in terms of migration. John

Yes, WWII was, but then again Germans did happen to go east with trade, political regions, etc. just a few centuries prior. So you've got quite a bit of a mix moving back and forth. Places in Holland (& Belgium) might be a bit of a stretch from a modern point of view for the same reasons but certain areas in Denmark have potential. I know phenotype doesn't hold much meaning but I've encountered Brits who look so like the "old" type Dane, a dub someone told me about little town locals, that if they learnt Danish few would think them a foreigner. The irony is, is those Brits happen to come from areas of supposed high Anglo-Saxon percentiles.

Still, I know someone from there (Europe) whose overwhelming "English", no not foreigner influenced to my knowledge, on some gedmatch oracles is rather interesting in a way.

Calas
03-14-2017, 10:08 PM
This thread is a fun way to see just how Anglo, Saxon, and Scandinavian you are* using your Living DNA results in combination with the data for each region from the POBI.



SELF / SIBLING

SW Scotland & Northern Ireland - 18.9% / 15.8%
Cumbria - 16.2% / 11.5%
Northwest Scotland - 10.5% / 6.3%
North Wales- 7.8% / 4.5%
Northumbria - 6.2% / 6.3%
Central England - 6.1 / 5.1%
Cornwall - 3.9% / 6.7%
North Yorkshire - 0% / 2.8%
Aberdeenshire - 3.2% / 2.4%
South Wales Border - 1.8% / 1.6%
South Wales - 1.2% / 1.9%
Devon 0% / 1.8%
Orkney - 0% / 1.1%

British Breakdown - 75.8% / 67.8%

6.2% unassigned Great Britain & Ireland / 12.9%


If you, or whoever else, could please. Average between the two might be better.

deadly77
03-15-2017, 05:41 AM
Damn Norfolk, that's some serious FRA17 you've got going on. My low numbers are due to me only having about 69% British Ancestry. Add my German ancestors and I'm a good bit more Germanic than that I reckon (though with my bias towards the ancient British side of things I'm tempted to ignore those German ancestors!)

On another note, I was reading this: http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408

This study claims the average Anglo Saxon amount in East England is 38%.. if you take half of the FRA17 component, and add it with DEN18 and GER3 you get 38.5. not saying it's conclusive, but perhaps the divide for FRA17 between "Celtic" and "Germanic" is 50%?

I added up my FRA17 and it came out as 16.2%, which is even less than yours Skitbo. I'm all British and Irish as far as my paper trail goes (at least as far as I can tell), and LivingDNA gave me 98.5% Great Britain and Ireland.

deadly77
03-15-2017, 05:49 AM
Only British regions work for this, I think west Yorkshire equals south Yorkshire on living (the Yorkshire that looks like the small circle on the living DNA map.. I think that's southern?)

I would say yes. I lived in Sheffield for seven years and South and West Yorkshire were used pretty commonly. No doubt someone from Yorkshire will be along to correct me (and I'm happy for them to do so) but the map looks like a similar region to me.

I've also noticed that in your original post, POBI has South/Central England while Living DNA has South Central England and Central England regions. I used the same breakdown for both regions - not sure if I'm double counting or correct on that one.

sktibo
03-15-2017, 06:49 AM
I added up my FRA17 and it came out as 16.2%, which is even less than yours Skitbo. I'm all British and Irish as far as my paper trail goes (at least as far as I can tell), and LivingDNA gave me 98.5% Great Britain and Ireland.

So the South/ Central England doesn't mean south central England on living DNA it refers to all of the regions within the large red cluster. So, all the living DNA regions except Devon, Cornwall, the Welsh clusters including Welsh borders, South Yorkshire (I think it's the one that corresponds to West Yorkshire, it's the cluster which lines up more or less with the old British kingdom of Elmet), and the Anglo Scottish border regions along with the Scottish ones. So whatever isn't included here is south / central England.

The areas high in FRA 17 are the large English cluster, along with Devon and Cornwall. IIRC you are mostly Scottish borders? So makes sense.

firemonkey
03-15-2017, 11:45 AM
Cornwall: Saxon 0.11
Angles & Danes 0.13
Scandinavian 0.07
Remainder 1.09

Devon: Saxon 0.61
Angles and Danes 0.61
Scandinavian 0.36
Remainder 3.92

Northumbria: Saxon 0.15
Angles and Danes 0.37
Scandinavian 0.45
Remainder 2.63


North Wales Saxon 0
Angles and Danes 0.09
Scandinavian 0.23
Remainder 2.08

Southwest Scotland Saxon 0.17
Angles and Danes 0.81
Scandinavian 1.66
Remainder 8.06

Northwest Scotland Saxon 0
Angles and Danes 0.10
Scandinavian 0.80
Remainder 2.80

Orkney Saxon 0.02
Angles and Danes 0.12
Scandinavian 0.48
Remainder 1.18

The ones you did for me

Central England 17.2:
1.79% GER3
1.94% DEN18
1.55% Scand.
11.92% Remainder

Aberdeenshire 16.2:
0.36% GER3
1.14% DEN18
2.61% Scand.
13.09% Remainder

SE England 7.1:
0.73% GER3
0.8% DEN18
0.64% Scand.
4.93% Remainder

I am not sure which other living dna regions should be assigned to which POBI grouping.

From what I have I get

Saxon 3.94%
Angles and Danes 6.11%
Scandinavian 8.85%
Remainder 51.70

If someone could do the other living dna regions I would be most grateful. On the limited results I have been able to do it seems Scandinavian is more prominent for me than Angles/Danes or Saxons. This of course might change with a full list of results.

If I take South as same as central as in POBI south/central

Saxon 0.49
Angles and Danes 0.53
Scandinavian 0.42
Remainder 3.26

South Yorkshire= West Yorkshire

Saxon 0.15
Angles/Danes 0.21
Scandinavian 0.19
Remainder 1.25

That gives revised figures of

Saxon 4.63
Angles/Danes 6.85
Scandinavian 9.46
Remainder 56.21

sktibo
03-16-2017, 04:56 AM
If you, or whoever else, could please. Average between the two might be better.

Here you are, your numbers, not average

SW Scot:
0.30% GER3
1.44% DEN18
2.93% Scandinavia

Cumbria
0.47 GER3
1.70% DEN18
2% Scandinavia

NW Scotland:
0.29% DEN18
2.26% Scandinavia

NW Wales:
0.28% DEN18
0.73% Scandinavia

Northumbria:
0.26% GER3
0.64% DEN18
0.77% Scandinavia

Central England:
0.63% GER3
0.69% DEN18
0.55% Scandinavia

Cornwall:
0.30% GER3
0.36% DEN18
0.19% Scandinavia

Aberdeenshire:
0.07% GER3
0.23% DEN18
0.52% Scandinavia

Welsh Border:
0.16% GER3
0.18% DEN18
0.13% Scandinavia

South Wales:
0.07% DEN18
0.09% Scandinavia

GER3: 2.19%
DEN18: 5.88%
Scandinavia: 10.17%
Not much Saxon but a good whack of Scandinavian.

deadly77
03-16-2017, 05:43 AM
So the South/ Central England doesn't mean south central England on living DNA it refers to all of the regions within the large red cluster. So, all the living DNA regions except Devon, Cornwall, the Welsh clusters including Welsh borders, South Yorkshire (I think it's the one that corresponds to West Yorkshire, it's the cluster which lines up more or less with the old British kingdom of Elmet), and the Anglo Scottish border regions along with the Scottish ones. So whatever isn't included here is south / central England.

The areas high in FRA 17 are the large English cluster, along with Devon and Cornwall. IIRC you are mostly Scottish borders? So makes sense.

Yes, my only expected ancestry from South of Yorkshire was a ggggg-grandfather from Kent and gg-grandparents (and preceding) from Norfolk. LivingDNA gave me a higher distribution of regions to the West than I was expecting and 0% East Anglia, which I was surprised by. May get something different when the update rolls through which would change a lot of those percentages for sure. Or if it still holds, need to have a longer think about migrations within Britain generations before my paper trail runs out.

Calas
03-16-2017, 10:07 AM
So the South/ Central England doesn't mean south central England on living DNA it refers to all of the regions within the large red cluster. So, all the living DNA regions except Devon, Cornwall, the Welsh clusters including Welsh borders, South Yorkshire (I think it's the one that corresponds to West Yorkshire, it's the cluster which lines up more or less with the old British kingdom of Elmet), and the Anglo Scottish border regions along with the Scottish ones. So whatever isn't included here is south / central England.

The areas high in FRA 17 are the large English cluster, along with Devon and Cornwall. IIRC you are mostly Scottish borders? So makes sense.

They are merely following migration paths. Probably generalizing around the time of the Industrial Revolution though it's gone on longer than that. I believe I have said this a few times that a number of Scottish moved south into England.

Scottish would be Northumbria & Cumbria, then Yorkshire, then the Midlands. They'd expand outwards from there. A Norfolk, for example, mentioned elsewhere around the Fens that there's words and terms there that are more Midlands originated than southeastern regions. This would be particularly so of Lowlanders; a number of whom with their more English surnames wouldn't be as identifiable as Scottish on census records by the way for people doing research. Not every Scottish person is called Stuart, or MacClery, or Bruce.


There's an accent around Corby, for example, that in many ways is hardly any different than Glaswegian. Corby & area has had a lot of Scottish/Irish influence & Glasgow a lot of Irish influence over the last couple generations. People have taken nowadays (even fellow UKers) to asking I am from the "Midlands", and at times Yorkshire, because having lived outside of Scotland since 20 (13 years ago) - and my use of the more "refined" RP English/BBC English as mine was the sort of accent that you'd be going huh, what, can you repeat that more than you'd be understanding me - my accent isn't quite as identifibly Scottish anymore except particular verbiage, words, or when angry/fed up.

I am still a bit amused how a couple weeks ago one of my colleagues actually got their old employer on the phone so I could listen to their accent as, as per this colleague, I and their old boss sounded very much alike. We did. Now was this person Scottish? Yes, that's how my colleague mentioned him (his Scottish boss), and given his accent I'd eat my hat if he wasn't from Glasgow.

MacUalraig
03-16-2017, 10:27 AM
MacClery?? What makes you think that is a Scottish name?

Calas
03-16-2017, 11:22 AM
MacClery?? What makes you think that is a Scottish name?

Lol. It is a Gaelic name if you want the truth. It has long since been acknowledged as Scottish, Manx and Irish. Which makes the argument of is it Irish versus Scottish all that more... interesting. Mac a' Chléirich (Scottish), Mac an Chléirich (Irish). The MacClery/MacCleery is typically more common in Ireland nowadays. But ironically some of the oldest mentions of MacCleary/Clery/Cleery records are Scottish (1462) versus Irish (1552). I've always been, in a way, amused how the highest concentrations of MacClearys/Cleerys in Ireland were once in Ulster. Why'd that be do you think?

sktibo
03-16-2017, 08:58 PM
They are merely following migration paths. Probably generalizing around the time of the Industrial Revolution though it's gone on longer than that. I believe I have said this a few times that a number of Scottish moved south into England.

Scottish would be Northumbria & Cumbria, then Yorkshire, then the Midlands. They'd expand outwards from there. A Norfolk, for example, mentioned elsewhere around the Fens that there's words and terms there that are more Midlands originated than southeastern regions. This would be particularly so of Lowlanders; a number of whom with their more English surnames wouldn't be as identifiable as Scottish on census records by the way for people doing research. Not every Scottish person is called Stuart, or MacClery, or Bruce.


There's an accent around Corby, for example, that in many ways is hardly any different than Glaswegian. Corby & area has had a lot of Scottish/Irish influence & Glasgow a lot of Irish influence over the last couple generations. People have taken nowadays (even fellow UKers) to asking I am from the "Midlands", and at times Yorkshire, because having lived outside of Scotland since 20 (13 years ago) - and my use of the more "refined" RP English/BBC English as mine was the sort of accent that you'd be going huh, what, can you repeat that more than you'd be understanding me - my accent isn't quite as identifibly Scottish anymore except particular verbiage, words, or when angry/fed up.

I am still a bit amused how a couple weeks ago one of my colleagues actually got their old employer on the phone so I could listen to their accent as, as per this colleague, I and their old boss sounded very much alike. We did. Now was this person Scottish? Yes, that's how my colleague mentioned him (his Scottish boss), and given his accent I'd eat my hat if he wasn't from Glasgow.

This wasn't referring to any historical patterns, I was trying to explain which living DNA category falls into which POBI category to clear it up for those less familiar with the charts and maps

Calas
03-16-2017, 11:16 PM
This wasn't referring to any historical patterns, I was trying to explain which living DNA category falls into which POBI category to clear it up for those less familiar with the charts and maps

skitbo - charts and maps in many ways mean nothing. They are, after all, painfully modern in relation to the back-forth & all around movement of the species known as man. If they weren't then things like PoBI would be clear cut. You could quite literally draw lines in the sand and say population A, in region B, carries the genes of Purpleman and well every single person belonging to population A, of region B, would carry the genes of Purpleman and nothing else.

sktibo
03-16-2017, 11:32 PM
skitbo - charts and maps in many ways mean nothing. They are, after all, painfully modern in relation to the back-forth & all around movement of the species known as man. If they weren't then things like PoBI would be clear cut. You could quite literally draw lines in the sand and say population A, in region B, carries the genes of Purpleman and well every single person belonging to population A, of region B, would carry the genes of Purpleman and nothing else.

14574

Nothing to do with my post. I'm not talking about the meaning of charts and maps, I'm not talking about historical migrations, I'm not talking about the fact that you can't draw lines in the sand with human populations. If you want to discuss that it may make a good topic of discussion for another thread. This is purely which Living DNA regions line up with which POBI regions, for the purpose of helping people less familiar with this study determine which of their Living DNA regions go where. I've attached the POBI region map here so that people can compare it to their Living DNA regions in case the instructions do not make sense to them. You can see that Living DNA's "South England" is clearly within the large red English cluster, so people can look at that and say "Ok, so when I'm calculating my numbers for South England, I use the "South / Central England numbers"

Calas
03-16-2017, 11:46 PM
14574

Nothing to do with my post. I'm not talking about the meaning of charts and maps, I'm not talking about historical migrations, I'm not talking about the fact that you can't draw lines in the sand with human populations. You can see that Living DNA's "South England" is clearly within the large red English cluster, so people can look at that and say "Ok, so when I'm calculating my numbers for South England, I use the "South / Central England numbers"

Yet what I am saying is all interrelated. You can't look at A and B while forgetting E, F, and G. That "large red English cluster" happens to include Northumbria, Midlands and south-central England after all as per PoBI's inclusion. That is no really much of a surprise if you know British history. But does that mean Living DNA's "south England" in relation to PoBI is, in a way, so generic as to be useless?

sktibo
03-17-2017, 12:02 AM
Yet what I am saying is all interrelated. You can't look at A and B while forgetting E, F, and G. That "large red English cluster" happens to include Northumbria, Midlands and south-central England after all as per PoBI's inclusion. That is no really much of a surprise if you know British history. But does that mean Living DNA's "south England" in relation to PoBI is, in a way, so generic as to be useless?

For one, Northumbria cluster are the orange circles, it's not included in the large red Cluster. Welsh Borders are the purple crosses, yes there's an overlap between the red squares and the purple crosses too but they are different. There's even a red square which made it's way up to fife by the look of things. Large Red cluster is marked by the red squares, which often step outside the confines of the South / Central England zone. The boundaries are semi arbitrary as we can see markers from these different genetic groups are found in other places on the map, such as the red square in fife I mentioned above, or the Northumbrian orange circle over in Ireland. There's some Devon teal/blue circles scattered around in the heartlands of the large red cluster, and a person who shares DNA With the Welsh Border people down in Kent. They've drawn the boundaries where each cluster has the majority of it's genetic markers, which makes sense, but of course doesn't account for every single individual.
The large red cluster does not include Northumbria. it does include the midlands and South Central England. There's a key on the left and right sides which explains which is which.
I think you're right about regions such as "South England" Living DNA's English regions which line up with the large red cluster are essentially the same with some very tiny differences that Living DNA picked apart in order to split it up.
Here's a link to a video which shows how the regions split apart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ANNHMzmxlI

This is quite far off topic now from what this thread is supposed to be for. We'll have to leave it here. If you want to discuss this more please start a new thread.

sktibo
03-17-2017, 12:15 AM
Adrian Stevenson's analysis:

74.4% South / Central England (Big Red Cluster):
7.74% GER3
8.41% DEN18
6.7% Scandinavia

South Yorkshire (W. Yorkshire):
1.11% GER3
1.58% DEN18
1.43% Scandinavia

Northumbria:
0.12% GER3
0.3% DEN18
0.36% Scandinavia

8.97% GER3
10.29% DEN18
8.49% Scandinavia

Jessie
03-17-2017, 01:26 AM
Lol. It is a Gaelic name if you want the truth. It has long since been acknowledged as Scottish, Manx and Irish. Which makes the argument of is it Irish versus Scottish all that more... interesting. Mac a' Chléirich (Scottish), Mac an Chléirich (Irish). The MacClery/MacCleery is typically more common in Ireland nowadays. But ironically some of the oldest mentions of MacCleary/Clery/Cleery records are Scottish (1462) versus Irish (1552). I've always been, in a way, amused how the highest concentrations of MacClearys/Cleerys in Ireland were once in Ulster. Why'd that be do you think?

Cleary at any rate is definitely Irish. Some relatives from Tipperary are Cleary. Edward Lysacht said O'Cleary is one of the oldest surnames dating before the 10th Century however he didn't cite any examples. It could be one of those names used both in Irish and Scottish so could have origins in both places.

Calas
03-17-2017, 01:54 AM
Cleary at any rate is definitely Irish. Some relatives from Tipperary are Cleary. Edward Lysacht said O'Cleary is one of the oldest surnames dating before the 10th Century however he didn't cite any examples. It could be one of those names used both in Irish and Scottish so could have origins in both places.

It is Gaelic, the actual origin maybe Scottish, Irish or Manx as said.


But you mean MacLysacht? The one who simply rehashed a lot of Woulfe's prior work? The fact he can't cite examples, however, doesn't add weight to his claims. The fact Woulfe says that the Scottish version first appears in and around Dumbarton might hold value. Except Dál Riata was northeastern Ireland and not northwestern were the Irish version exists.

Jessie
03-17-2017, 02:05 AM
It is Gaelic, the actual origin maybe Scottish, Irish or Manx as said.


But you mean MacLysacht? The one who simply rehashed a lot of Woulfe's prior work? Ironic, isn't it, that Woulfe specifically says Mac a' Chléirich is often mentioned first. Dumbarton > Scotland. And all Irish versions originate in Northern Ireland.

Besides, personally, always felt if a claim doesn't have any proof [examples] then there's a possibility that the one making the claim might be grasping at straws as they say.

It's very widespread over all of Ireland. I've also heard it originated in Connacht. Julie and Desiree Cleary, Julie became Queen of Spain and Desiree became Queen of Sweden, descended from an Irish family in France. They both married brothers of Napolean Bonaparte. Not 100% sure but I thought they were descendants Wild Geese.

Desiree was actually engaged to Napolean but married Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte not one of Napolean's brothers.

Adrian Stevenson
03-17-2017, 06:47 AM
Adrian Stevenson's analysis:

74.4% South / Central England (Big Red Cluster):
7.74% GER3
8.41% DEN18
6.7% Scandinavia

South Yorkshire (W. Yorkshire):
1.11% GER3
1.58% DEN18
1.43% Scandinavia

Northumbria:
0.12% GER3
0.3% DEN18
0.36% Scandinavia

8.97% GER3
10.29% DEN18
8.49% Scandinavia

Thanks very much for doing the Maths for me.

Cheers, Ade.

MacUalraig
03-17-2017, 06:53 AM
It is Gaelic, the actual origin maybe Scottish, Irish or Manx as said.


But you mean MacLysacht? The one who simply rehashed a lot of Woulfe's prior work? The fact he can't cite examples, however, doesn't add weight to his claims. The fact Woulfe says that the Scottish version first appears in and around Dumbarton might hold value. Except Dál Riata was northeastern Ireland and not northwestern were the Irish version exists.

O Murchadha lists it as the oldest eponym in Ireland in his Nomina article

The formation of Gaelic surnames in Ireland - choosing the eponyms

and describes Comaltan h. Cleirigh (AU, 980 AD) as 'arguably the first Irishman if not first European to have his personal name and family name recorded'

Nomina 22 (1999) pp25-44

This journal (of the Society for Name Studies in Britain and Ireland) attracts articles by the top onomasticians in Britain and Ireland. It is peer reviewed and the editorial board includes Peter McClure and Kay Muhr amongst others. The actual paper I cited above was delivered by the author at the SNSBI annual conference at St. Patrick's College, Maynooth in 1998.

MacUalraig
03-17-2017, 07:19 AM
It's very widespread over all of Ireland. I've also heard it originated in Connacht. Julie and Desiree Cleary, Julie became Queen of Spain and Desiree became Queen of Sweden, descended from an Irish family in France. They both married brothers of Napolean Bonaparte. Not 100% sure but I thought they were descendants Wild Geese.

Desiree was actually engaged to Napolean but married Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte not one of Napolean's brothers.

Moreover if again we consult Petty we so no McCleerys in the entire country but two groups of O Cleerys listed in c. 1659 and one of those is in Limerick, not Ulster.
Clerys are in Tipperary, Waterford, Kings, Meath, Westmeath and Sligo. All told only one Ulster appearance for O Cleery in Donegal.

sktibo
04-05-2017, 06:26 PM
I'd like to note that as of Avalon's enquiry into what exactly comprises the NW England cluster on living DNA, we can no longer say with any certainty what comprises some of the living DNA regions. Therefore, my method of analyzing living DNA data with the POBI data may no longer be valid.
However, I hope that you'll still be able to enjoy the spreadsheet data I've transposed on the OP of this thread

angscoire
04-14-2017, 01:08 PM
I'd like to note that as of Avalon's enquiry into what exactly comprises the NW England cluster on living DNA, we can no longer say with any certainty what comprises some of the living DNA regions. Therefore, my method of analyzing living DNA data with the POBI data may no longer be valid.
However, I hope that you'll still be able to enjoy the spreadsheet data I've transposed on the OP of this thread

Just for fun then ;

Scandinavian 8%
DEN18 (Angle) 6.8%
GER3 (Saxon) 3.8%

= 18.6% Germanic . Adding non-British Scandinavian 9.5% = 28% Germanic

jonathanmcg1990
06-02-2017, 02:52 PM
Based on projections my results are as follows.

GER3 (Saxon) 2.7%
DEN18 (Angles & Danes) 7.1%
Scandinavian 15.9%

Garimund
10-04-2020, 07:46 AM
Reading the analysis on the Viking paper made me interested in these segments and I wanted to revive this old thread. Using my LivingDNA results I came up with the following estimations in regards to GER3, DEN18, Scandinavian, & FRA17 (per Norfolks comment on it showing up heaviest in the Netherlands):

My results:
Great Britain and Ireland
100%
* 
Northern Ireland and Southwest Scotland 
26.2%
* 
South Central England 
17.7%
* 
Central England 
17.3%
* 
South Wales Border 
8%
* 
East Anglia 
7.6%
* 
Northwest Scotland 
6%
* 
Ireland 
5.8%
* 
Northwest England 
5%
* 
North Wales 
3.2%
* 
Aberdeenshire 
1.8%
* 
Southeast England 
1.3%

GER3 (Saxon)= 5.8578%
DEN18 (Anglo-Dane)= 8.6185%
Scandinavian = 11.2098%
FRA17 = 20.9266%
Combined 46.6127%

Finn
10-04-2020, 09:48 AM
Reading the analysis on the Viking paper made me interested in these segments and I wanted to revive this old thread. Using my LivingDNA results I came up with the following estimations in regards to GER3, DEN18, Scandinavian, & FRA17 (per Norfolks comment on it showing up heaviest in the Netherlands):

My results:
Great Britain and Ireland
100%
* 
Northern Ireland and Southwest Scotland 
26.2%
* 
South Central England 
17.7%
* 
Central England 
17.3%
* 
South Wales Border 
8%
* 
East Anglia 
7.6%
* 
Northwest Scotland 
6%
* 
Ireland 
5.8%
* 
Northwest England 
5%
* 
North Wales 
3.2%
* 
Aberdeenshire 
1.8%
* 
Southeast England 
1.3%

GER3 (Saxon)= 5.8578%
DEN18 (Anglo-Dane)= 8.6185%
Scandinavian = 11.2098%
FRA17 = 20.9266%
Combined 46.6127%

May be just must take in account that the Anglo-Saxons went to England and Friesland....so an Anglo-Saxon stream from Friesland is not likely, but the similarities are not coincidental: it's the same kind of influx!!

Nqp15hhu
10-10-2020, 08:37 PM
I was only able to do this with my 'British' regions because you don't have an Irish region. So it won't be totally accurate.

Saxon: 0.2% Somehow I think this is higher.
GER6: 2.5%
BEL7: 0%
BEL11: 1.2%
FRA12: 0.5%
FRA14: 3.9%
FRA17: 2.7%
DEN18: 0.9%, possibly higher.
SFS31: 0.5%
Scandinavian: 2.6%

Very low numbers but again, Irish or Celtic (in reality) is not included so not reality.

Nqp15hhu
10-10-2020, 08:45 PM
Cleary at any rate is definitely Irish. Some relatives from Tipperary are Cleary. Edward Lysacht said O'Cleary is one of the oldest surnames dating before the 10th Century however he didn't cite any examples. It could be one of those names used both in Irish and Scottish so could have origins in both places.

It is mostly protestants with that surname where I live. So not always.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1911&surname=mccleary&exact=&firstname=&county19011911=Londonderry&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=&deafdumb=&houseNumber=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumberDiv=&protNumber=&parish=&barony=&yearsMarried=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familyId=&ageInMonths=&search=Search&sort=&pageSize=100

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1911&surname=mccleary&exact=&firstname=&county19011911=Antrim&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=&deafdumb=&houseNumber=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumberDiv=&protNumber=&parish=&barony=&yearsMarried=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familyId=&ageInMonths=&search=Search&sort=&pageSize=100

Truthfully I didn't consider this surname to be Irish, but perhaps it is.

Nqp15hhu
10-10-2020, 08:50 PM
Moreover if again we consult Petty we so no McCleerys in the entire country but two groups of O Cleerys listed in c. 1659 and one of those is in Limerick, not Ulster.
Clerys are in Tipperary, Waterford, Kings, Meath, Westmeath and Sligo. All told only one Ulster appearance for O Cleery in Donegal.

The surname is McCleary here.

FionnSneachta
10-10-2020, 09:42 PM
It is mostly protestants with that surname where I live. So not always.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1911&surname=mccleary&exact=&firstname=&county19011911=Londonderry&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=&deafdumb=&houseNumber=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumberDiv=&protNumber=&parish=&barony=&yearsMarried=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familyId=&ageInMonths=&search=Search&sort=&pageSize=100

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1911&surname=mccleary&exact=&firstname=&county19011911=Antrim&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=&deafdumb=&houseNumber=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumberDiv=&protNumber=&parish=&barony=&yearsMarried=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familyId=&ageInMonths=&search=Search&sort=&pageSize=100

Truthfully I didn't consider this surname to be Irish, but perhaps it is.

It is likely the Clearys from where I'm from have an Irish origin for their surname. I will add that I don't know any McClearys though which seems to be the dominant variation in your area. Here is a note on the surname from John Grenham's website (https://www.johngrenham.com/surnamescode/surnamehistory.php?surname=Cleary&search_type=full):


O Cleirigh, meaning "grandson of the scribe" is the Irish for both (O) Cle(a)ry and, in many cases in Ireland, Clarke. The surname is of great antiquity, deriving from Cleireach of Connacht, born c. 820, in turn descended from Guaire, a seventh-century king of Connacht. Cleireach derives from the same root as the English "cleric" and "clerk" and was used in the same way to describe both a priest and a scholar. Unusually, the anglcisation of the Irish name as Clark was actually quite accurate.

The first of Cleireach's descendants to use his name as part of a fixed hereditary surname was Tigherneach Ua Cleirigh, lord of Aidhne in south Co. Galway, whose death is recorded in the year 916. It seems likely that this is the oldest true surname recorded anywhere in Europe. The power of the family in their original Co. Galway homeland, close to the modern town of Gort, was broken by the thirteenth century, and they scattered throughout the island, with the most prominent branches settling in Derry and Donegal, where they became famous as poets, in Cavan, where many appear to have anglicised the name as "Clarke", and in the Kilkenny/Waterford/Tipperary region.

Nqp15hhu
10-10-2020, 09:45 PM
It is likely the Clearys from where I'm from have an Irish origin for their surname. I will add that I don't know any McClearys though which seems to be the dominant variation in your area. Here is a note on the surname from John Grenham's website (https://www.johngrenham.com/surnamescode/surnamehistory.php?surname=Cleary&search_type=full):

Might just be like my surname, with people using an Irish form but is of a Scottish origin.

FionnSneachta
10-10-2020, 09:54 PM
Might just be like my surname, with people using an Irish form but is of a Scottish origin.

I'm only coming across Irish origins for the surname. As stated in the quote from the website, branches settled in Donegal and Derry. There could well be a Scottish origin for the surname as well but I don't think that there is necessarily an Irish form of the surname. Since branches did travel to Northern Ireland, it would be difficult to separate those with a Scottish origin from those with an Irish origin with certainty without doing something like a Y-DNA test.

jelliedsoup
10-12-2020, 09:01 AM
Just on a side note, my grandmother's maiden name was McCleary, initially from Lurgan, County Armagh. My dad (her son) gets Scottish, but no Irish in Ancestry. And Northern Ireland/Scot in LivingDNA.