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View Full Version : Is Geno 2.0 The Best For An Autosomal Analysis? I Wanna Know My Exact Y-DNA Subtype



Chronos
03-11-2017, 11:49 PM
I am non-Jewish and I am J1-P58, I am trying to find out my exact haplogroup. This guy doesn't seem to know what is exact haplogroup subtype is, so Geno 2.0 can't tell me which J1-P58 STR subtype I am?

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5438216/1/

STR haplotypes within J1-P58

For men who tested their Y-DNA with companies such as Family Tree DNA, iGenea or Genebase, certain subclades can be easily identified by specific STR markers.

J1-L93 (aka L92.1) and J1-L386 are both defined by DYS446=13. L93 has a DYS641 value smaller or equal to 10. L386 can be identified by YCAIIa=17. L93 is retricted to Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Oman, while L386 was found chiefly the United Arab Emirates.

J1-Z640 (aka Z641 or Z644) is particularly common in Syria and Lebanon, but also has been found also in Turkey, Israel and in the Arabian peninsula, as well as well as in many European countries, particularly Spain. It was very probably found among the ancient Phoenicians. Z640+ members typically have DYS561=14. Its subclade L174.1 can be identifed by the STR value DYS594=11.

J1-L817 is a major Jewish cluster, also defined by L818 and DYS392=13. It has been found a far as China. Most Jewish members belong to its subclade L816.

J1-L823 (under FGC15940) corresponds to DYS452=30. It is is a Jewish cluster found mostly in central and eastern Europe, but also in Spain.

J1-L1253 corresponds to DYS557>18. It appears to be limited to Britain and Ireland.

J1-L1279 corresponds to DYS497=16. A rare subclade identified in the United Arab Emirates.

J1-L444 is a small Arabic subclade defined by DYS531=12.
Both L615 (found in the United Arab Emirates) and L859 (found in Iraq and Saudi Arabia) share an STR value for DYS485 around 14.

ArmandoR1b
03-12-2017, 02:09 AM
Y-DNA and autosomal DNA are two different things. The best Y-DNA testing is BigY, FGC, or Yseq WGS. Those three can be analyzed by YFull which would test known, novel, and private SNPs. Geno 2.0 only tested a limited number of known SNPs. The ISOGG tree is even more limited than it used to be so a lot of the SNPs that were posted on Anthroscape aren't showing up in the ISOGG J haplogroup page.

In my opinion, 23andme has the best autosomal ethnicity calculator.

Missouri1455
03-12-2017, 02:48 AM
I am non-Jewish and I am J1-P58, I am trying to find out my exact haplogroup. This guy doesn't seem to know what is exact haplogroup subtype is, so Geno 2.0 can't tell me which J1-P58 STR subtype I am?

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5438216/1/

STR haplotypes within J1-P58

For men who tested their Y-DNA with companies such as Family Tree DNA, iGenea or Genebase, certain subclades can be easily identified by specific STR markers.

J1-L93 (aka L92.1) and J1-L386 are both defined by DYS446=13. L93 has a DYS641 value smaller or equal to 10. L386 can be identified by YCAIIa=17. L93 is retricted to Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Oman, while L386 was found chiefly the United Arab Emirates.

J1-Z640 (aka Z641 or Z644) is particularly common in Syria and Lebanon, but also has been found also in Turkey, Israel and in the Arabian peninsula, as well as well as in many European countries, particularly Spain. It was very probably found among the ancient Phoenicians. Z640+ members typically have DYS561=14. Its subclade L174.1 can be identifed by the STR value DYS594=11.

J1-L817 is a major Jewish cluster, also defined by L818 and DYS392=13. It has been found a far as China. Most Jewish members belong to its subclade L816.

J1-L823 (under FGC15940) corresponds to DYS452=30. It is is a Jewish cluster found mostly in central and eastern Europe, but also in Spain.

J1-L1253 corresponds to DYS557>18. It appears to be limited to Britain and Ireland.

J1-L1279 corresponds to DYS497=16. A rare subclade identified in the United Arab Emirates.

J1-L444 is a small Arabic subclade defined by DYS531=12.
Both L615 (found in the United Arab Emirates) and L859 (found in Iraq and Saudi Arabia) share an STR value for DYS485 around 14.

If you are looking for autosomal results i suggest you to go for 23andme, ancestrydna, or familytreedna.
They will give you ethnic results that will define your ethnic makeup.

If you were solely interested for y-dna then i suggest you to go for geno 2.0

ArmandoR1b
03-12-2017, 03:19 AM
If you were solely interested for y-dna then i suggest you to go for geno 2.0

Geno 2.0 didn't test enough SNPs for it to be as useful as he wants it to be. These are the only SNPs downstream from J1-P58 that are tested by Geno 2.0

L93
FGC7
FGC5
FGC2
L818
L816

He could take the J1-M267 Superclade Panel or strategically take specific SNPs tests at Yseq and figure out which subclade he is in and save money and time.

Missouri1455
03-12-2017, 03:21 AM
Geno 2.0 didn't test enough SNPs for it to be as useful as he wants it to be. These are the only SNPs downstream from J1-P58 that are tested by Geno 2.0

L93
FGC7
FGC5
FGC2
L818
L816

He could strategically take specific SNPs tests at Yseq and figure out which subclade he is in and save money and time.

Thank you for pointing this out:)

Chronos
03-12-2017, 05:13 AM
I have done 23andme but 23andme doesn't provide an autosomal analysis but it provides you with all the raw data. Is there anything I can use for free by inputing my 23andme raw data to find out my STR haplogroup?

ArmandoR1b
03-12-2017, 05:50 AM
I have done 23andme but 23andme doesn't provide an autosomal analysis but it provides you with all the raw data.
23andme does do autosomal testing. They use autosomal testing for Ancestry Composition, DNA relatives, traits, and so on.


Is there anything I can use for free by inputing my 23andme raw data to find out my STR haplogroup?
23andme does not do Y-DNA STR testing. Haplogroups can be predicted with STRs but they can't be proven with STRs. Only Y-DNA SNP testing can prove a haplogroup. If you want to know for sure which J1-P58 subclade you belong to you need additional SNP testing. You don't have any other options.

The cheapest and fastest with very good customer service is Yseq. They have a J1-M267 Superclade Panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=30693) that includes 975 SNPs that are tested very reliably and the test is only $99 and you don't have to buy an STR test first like you do with FTDNA.

STR testing could give you close matches from a genealogical timeframe but you would need a Y67 or Y111 test to find close matches that really are from a genealogical timeframe. The Y67 is $268 and you still wouldn't have proof which subclade you belong to.

Chronos
03-12-2017, 10:22 AM
I am surprised Geno 2.0 would not be able to tell me my sub type, I have seen results for other people where it tells them theres.

https://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/genographic-2.0-kits/geno-2.0-next-generation-genographic-helix-dna-ancestry-kit--u.s.-delivery?gsk&code=MR21432

The picture here it looks like it says the exact STR haplotype.

ArmandoR1b
03-12-2017, 11:22 AM
I am surprised Geno 2.0 would not be able to tell me my sub type, I have seen results for other people where it tells them theres.

https://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/genographic-2.0-kits/geno-2.0-next-generation-genographic-helix-dna-ancestry-kit--u.s.-delivery?gsk&code=MR21432

The picture here it looks like it says the exact STR haplotype.

That is not an STR sub type. The picture shows a person with the R-Z295 SNP subclade. STRs are different types of markers than SNPs. Geno 2.0 does not do STR testing. Only FTDNA, Yseq, and Oxford Ancestors have an option for Y-DNA STR testing. Geno 2.0 only does SNP testing like 23andme but it does more SNPs than 23andme but less than the J1-M267 Superclade Panel, BigY, FGC, or Yseq WGS.

Here is a page that has all of the SNPs downstream from J1-P58 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/

If you live outside of the U.S. then Geno 2.0 will only test you for the SNPs downstream from J1-P58 that I listed in post #4. I have the results of at least 6 Geno 2.0 kits from the same type of testing so I know which SNPs are tested and which are not tested.

In the U.S. Geno 2.0 started using Helix as the testing lab and I have not seen the Y-DNA results of anyone that has had that test so I do not know how good that test is. I am pretty sure that it will not be better than the Yseq panel because Helix only tests "Paternal line (for males): Over 10,000 markers on the Y chromosome (https://www.helix.com/products/geno-2-ng)" and that is about what the Geno 2.0 Next Gen test by the FTDNA lab tested. That means the Helix test of J1-P58 SNPs is likely to be more limited than the Yseq panel. If you live in the U.S. and also want the autosomal and mtDNA results from Geno 2.0 Helix then try it out and let us know how it is. The Geno 2.0 page you linked explicitly states that Helix customers (Geno 2.0 Next Generation) cannot transfer to FTDNA and on the FAQ page they state that there currently is not a way to download the raw data. I would not give my money to a company not willing to let me download my own raw data.

Since you already know that you are J1-P58 and the J1-M267 Superclade Panel is faster and cheaper than Geno 2.0 then it is a better Y-DNA test.

MacUalraig
03-12-2017, 11:28 AM
Only FTDNA does Y-DNA STR testing. Geno 2.0 only does SNP testing like 23andme but it does more SNPs than 23andme but less than the J1-M267 Superclade Panel, BigY, FGC, or Yseq WGS.


YSEQ do STR testing (as do Oxford Ancestors).

ArmandoR1b
03-12-2017, 11:41 AM
YSEQ do STR testing (as do Oxford Ancestors).

I did forget about Yseq STR testing. But Y-STR testing still wouldn't prove a subclade which is what he is mostly interested in.

Chronos
03-13-2017, 11:53 AM
Thank you for pointing this out:)

What so they won't tell me for certain? I just wanna know which one I am, aren't these all of them? I am hoping to be J1-Z640


STR haplotypes within J1-P58

For men who tested their Y-DNA with companies such as Family Tree DNA, iGenea or Genebase, certain subclades can be easily identified by specific STR markers.

J1-L93 (aka L92.1) and J1-L386 are both defined by DYS446=13. L93 has a DYS641 value smaller or equal to 10. L386 can be identified by YCAIIa=17. L93 is retricted to Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Oman, while L386 was found chiefly the United Arab Emirates.

J1-Z640 (aka Z641 or Z644) is particularly common in Syria and Lebanon, but also has been found also in Turkey, Israel and in the Arabian peninsula, as well as well as in many European countries, particularly Spain. It was very probably found among the ancient Phoenicians. Z640+ members typically have DYS561=14. Its subclade L174.1 can be identifed by the STR value DYS594=11.

J1-L817 is a major Jewish cluster, also defined by L818 and DYS392=13. It has been found a far as China. Most Jewish members belong to its subclade L816.

J1-L823 (under FGC15940) corresponds to DYS452=30. It is is a Jewish cluster found mostly in central and eastern Europe, but also in Spain.

J1-L1253 corresponds to DYS557>18. It appears to be limited to Britain and Ireland.

J1-L1279 corresponds to DYS497=16. A rare subclade identified in the United Arab Emirates.

J1-L444 is a small Arabic subclade defined by DYS531=12.
Both L615 (found in the United Arab Emirates) and L859 (found in Iraq and Saudi Arabia) share an STR value for DYS485 around 14.

MacUalraig
03-13-2017, 12:28 PM
Once more, haplogroups are defined by SNPs ONLY. STRs do not define haplogroups, sets of STRs we call haplotypes. Anytime you read a website stating that a particular haplogroup is 'defined' by a specific STR value, walk away. Seriously.

Also bear in mind if you are ever looking at FTDNA haplogroup project pages that in some cases the admins break haplogroups down a level using STRs. An example is their J-M267 project which does just that. They dub these sub-levels clusters. They are not haplogroups.

ArmandoR1b
03-13-2017, 01:39 PM
What so they won't tell me for certain? I just wanna know which one I am, aren't these all of them? I am hoping to be J1-Z640.

I'll go ahead and repeat myself. If you live outside of the U.S. the Geno 2.0 test will not test you for those subclades. If you live in the U.S. you might not be tested for those subclades and the test is probably not as good as the Yseq test.

Do you live in the U.S. ?

Chronos
03-13-2017, 03:43 PM
I am in Canada and I was talking about the YSeq in that post, I simply wanna know what my exact subclade or J-P58 is. I would like to see an autosomal analysis too but that can wait, I wanna know which subclade I am first.

ArmandoR1b
03-13-2017, 03:56 PM
I am in Canada and I was talking about the YSeq in that post, I simply wanna know what my exact subclade or J-P58 is. I would like to see an autosomal analysis too but that can wait, I wanna know which subclade I am first.

The Yseq J1-M267 Superclade Panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=30693) will test you for almost all of the subclades that you posted and not only that, it will test for SNPs downstream from those subclades.

For instance, J1-Z640 and these downstream SNPs are tested -


L174
ZS7608
ZS1341
ZS1409
ZS7423
ZS1423
FGC5230
ZS5771
FGC5206
ZS5183
FGC41680
FGC5229
FGC5212
FGC15755
Z642
ZS1386
ZS9017
Z2296
ZS5747
ZS7577
Z2293
FGC30548
ZS1370
Z2269
CTS1591
ZS154

In order to see a list of J-P58 SNPs tested download the following PDF (https://www.yseq.net/images/trees/J1-M267_tree.pdf) and search for P58. Everything downstream from there is tested. You will see that it is a long list. The company will test branches and update the results as they are received then test more branches until there aren't any more branches to test. You can't go wrong with that test.

Chronos
03-14-2017, 08:55 AM
The Yseq J1-M267 Superclade Panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=30693) will test you for almost all of the subclades that you posted and not only that, it will test for SNPs downstream from those subclades.

For instance, J1-Z640 and these downstream SNPs are tested -


L174
ZS7608
ZS1341
ZS1409
ZS7423
ZS1423
FGC5230
ZS5771
FGC5206
ZS5183
FGC41680
FGC5229
FGC5212
FGC15755
Z642
ZS1386
ZS9017
Z2296
ZS5747
ZS7577
Z2293
FGC30548
ZS1370
Z2269
CTS1591
ZS154

In order to see a list of J-P58 SNPs tested download the following PDF (https://www.yseq.net/images/trees/J1-M267_tree.pdf) and search for P58. Everything downstream from there is tested. You will see that it is a long list. The company will test branches and update the results as they are received then test more branches until there aren't any more branches to test. You can't go wrong with that test.


So what exactly would I do? Would I send them my 23andme Rawdata?

ArmandoR1b
03-14-2017, 11:01 AM
So what exactly would I do? Would I send them my 23andme Rawdata?

You'll have to send them a saliva sample. To order the test go to the Yseq J1-M267 Superclade Panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=30693) page then scroll to the bottom then click on Add to Cart then click on Checkout then Continue under New Customer and so on. They'll send you a DNA sample kit with two swabs.