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Finn
03-12-2017, 10:58 AM
Last week I compared my North Dutch autosomal DNA trough Gedmatch with ancient DNA. Especially two results made me curios:

- Ust-Ishim Siberia 45kya up to 6cM, Omsk
- Clovis Montana 12,5 kya up to 4cM, Native America

Acoording to ISOGG:"For fully identical regions the threshold is 5 cMs/ 500 SNPs." So these results are pretty high, especially the Ust-Ishim.

Both results Ust-Ishim and Clovis Montana are pointing at the Ancient North Euroasian (ANE), which according to Haak e.a. (2015) si one of the founding populations of the modern Europeans. So these ANE has left trace in my autosomal DNA in my genotype.

But has this left also traces in my familial phenotype, the physical features? Thinking about my (grand)parents it went to my mind that especially my grandmother (fathers' side) was a tall and broad headed person. Did she have ANE features?

This leads to the question is there an ANE-like phenotype? There is of course no 'pure" ANE population. But looking at the ANE component in modern populations, the ANE percentage is the highest in the Siberian populations of the Kets (28% and in some individuals of it up to 67%) and in neighboring Selkup. This is the heat map of Eurogenes:
http://i63.tinypic.com/mmeiht.jpg

In Europe the highest ANE component can be found along the Balts, the ANE is there 18,5%. But does this result in a specific phenotype, in some specific physical features?

In old days anthropologists like the Swede Rolf Nordenstreng (https://www.academia.edu/16882688/CHAPTER_XV_The_Nordic_and_East_Baltic_race_-_has_the_race_of_the_Finns_been_found) or later on the American Charleston Coon used the term "East Baltic". This was described in racial terms. I don't share that. But in my eyes is what they did is try to 'capture' an ANE-like phenotype (although of course the term ANE didn't exist).

They described the 'East Baltic' as:
"This race also was large, although not as large as the Nordic race. The body of the East Balts was described as strong with broad shoulders, short legs and the face was wide and angular. The arches of the cheeks are said to be wider than among other European races (except the Lapps). The nose is low from its root and is projecting outwards only from its wide tip. The head looks large and the face is large, flat and angular. The body is stocky but flexible."

And Hilden (1958)
"Body strongly built and stocky, large, short head, wide and square shaped face, strongly emphasized arches of the cheek, comparably wide nose which was low from its root."

At that time all were referring to some kind of 'mongoloid' traces....I would say ANE.

Whit this in my mind I compared photo's of my grandmother with photo's of a 'east baltic' woman, a native American, a Selkup grandmother and a a more blurred, but still recognizable, photo of an old Ket women (1914). And indeed i guess there is a clear resemblance in phenotype! My grandmother was indeed ANE-like...I guess.

Question: is this, see the photo's below, indeed the ANE-like phenotype? What's your opinion? Look to the eyes, nose and cheeks, the total facial impression.

- my grandmother:
http://i66.tinypic.com/28v5eh4.jpg

- 'east baltic women':
http://i63.tinypic.com/2vmu8fd.jpg

- native American:
http://i64.tinypic.com/wbcrx3.jpg

- Selkup grandmother:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2w54rjt.jpg

- Ket women (1914):
http://i65.tinypic.com/1z55gdw.jpg

lukaszM
05-02-2017, 02:49 PM
Ok, what is the percentages of Baltic / Fennoscandian/ East-Euro components in Eurogenes calcs?

lukaszM
05-02-2017, 02:54 PM
Last week I compared my North Dutch autosomal DNA trough Gedmatch with ancient DNA. Especially two results made me curios:

- my grandmother:
http://i66.tinypic.com/28v5eh4.jpg


Your grand-mother is indeed East-Baltic probably. This is Ost-Frisian woman which according to the rules of Polish Comparative-Morphological School is of Baltic type (YL). Which is counterpart of East-Baltic of course.
I think your grandma when young should be similar in phenotype.

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/typologia/michalski/yl-43940943.jpg

Her basic indices:

Cephalic index: 82.68 (sub-brachycephalic);
Facial index: 77.20 (very wide face);
Nasal index: 74.4 (medium-wide nose)
eyes: gray

Finn
05-02-2017, 03:51 PM
Thanks LukaszM East Frisia is 'just around the corner' she was remarkable tall too, on her wedding photo she has to make a impossible pose to look as tall as my relative small grandfather ��

Finn
05-02-2017, 03:57 PM
My K15 result:
1. North Sea 39.01
2. Atlantic 27.71
3. Baltic 12.19
4. Eastern euro 10.2
5. West Med 5.86

Typicallly North Sea Germanic: close to nowadays Danes, Nores, Orkney etc. and close to Nordic Bronze and Iron Age gedmatch results.

lukaszM
05-02-2017, 04:54 PM
My K15 result:
1. North Sea 39.01
2. Atlantic 27.71
3. Baltic 12.19
4. Eastern euro 10.2
5. West Med 5.86

Typicallly North Sea Germanic: close to nowadays Danes, Nores, Orkney etc. and close to Nordic Bronze and Iron Age gedmatch results.

Can you post your Eurogenes K36 also? I'll check you in oracle for this calc http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-(Unofficial)-oracle-for-Eurogenes-K36-256-reference-populations

technetium
05-03-2017, 07:35 PM
What you do, is called "Pseudoscience".

lukaszM
05-04-2017, 01:19 PM
Oh, you made account just to replay in this specific thread. Interesting. It's Finn thread and he knows better what is science for him I think.

Finn
05-05-2017, 09:32 AM
indeed right warning, this is no science no pretention in that way....

Finn
05-05-2017, 09:34 AM
I would if I could buth my mac struggles with those files:\ Can I send you my gedmatch kit nr? Thanks in advance!

lukaszM
05-05-2017, 09:39 AM
Yes PM me.

Finn
05-05-2017, 10:14 AM
Can you post your Eurogenes K36 also? I'll check you in oracle for this calc http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-(Unofficial)-oracle-for-Eurogenes-K36-256-reference-populations

Thanks LukaszM I saw that you also created a possibility through google drive:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RFkthh0dPnSqTJuVwcmRXcZHNLtp7-9jQ0lS0q5NM_o/edit?usp=sharing

Holland-Denmark-Scotland

And regions:
1. British Isles 34,75%
2. Scandinavia 21,8%
3. Benelux and Frisians 18,91%

I made a mistake....filled in the K13 in stead of K36....
The results are:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RFkthh0dPnSqTJuVwcmRXcZHNLtp7-9jQ0lS0q5NM_o/edit?usp=sharing

Holland-Denmark-Sweden-(Scotland)

And regions:
1. Benelux and Frisians 44,95
2. Scandinavia 33,69
3. British Isles 19,78

Makes it more accurat indeed!

But all together: I guess I'am most of all Ingvaeonic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingaevones)

Finn
05-05-2017, 10:56 AM
Yes PM me.

Just filled in with k13:\ and corrected it with K36! See above!

lukaszM
05-05-2017, 11:30 AM
Thanks LukaszM I saw that you also created a possibility through google drive:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RFkthh0dPnSqTJuVwcmRXcZHNLtp7-9jQ0lS0q5NM_o/edit?usp=sharing

Holland-Denmark-Scotland

And regions:
1. British Isles 34,75%
2. Scandinavia 21,8%
3. Benelux and Frisians 18,91%

I made a mistake....filled in the K13 in stead of K36....
The results are:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RFkthh0dPnSqTJuVwcmRXcZHNLtp7-9jQ0lS0q5NM_o/edit?usp=sharing

Holland-Denmark-Sweden-(Scotland)

And regions:
1. Benelux and Frisians 44,95
2. Scandinavia 33,69
3. British Isles 19,78

Makes it more accurat indeed!

But all together: I guess I'am most of all Ingvaeonic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingaevones)


Interesting. Comparing to Denmark, Holland avereages and probably North Frisian (one kit)

https://s8.postimg.org/dlqjz1jxx/finn.jpg

lukaszM
05-05-2017, 11:35 AM
You have elevated North Atlantic and North Sea, low Italian & Iberian, also Central Euro. But higher East-Central Euro and especially East-Balkan which is mystery (in Denmark nobody have such high East-Balkan, in Holland one person among 26). Your Fennoscandian is like in Denmark.

You appear generally highly NW-Germanic with some slight south-east input (maybe from Austria, South Germany?).

Finn
05-05-2017, 12:10 PM
You have elevated North Atlantic and North Sea, low Italian & Iberian, also Central Euro. But higher East-Central Euro and especially East-Balkan which is mystery (in Denmark nobody have such high East-Balkan, in Holland one person among 26). Your Fennoscandian is like in Denmark.

You appear generally highly NW-Germanic with some slight south-east input (maybe from Austria, South Germany?).

Thanks LukaszM for the analysis. General indeed NW Germanic, or Ingvaeonic, the link between Northern Netherlands into Jutland. (North and South Dutch are in this respect very different).

The input from Austria and South Germany mmmm puzzle It's not recent (I mean unknown in my genealogy). E-V13 influence? Or influence of the Tumulus culture?
The polish wiki (https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krąg_kultur_mogiłowych#/media/File:Europe_middle_bronze_age.png) (in brown) gives the sphere of influence of the tumulus culture which connects it with a southeastern input (indeed Austria, Southern Germany, southeastwards). The Tumulus culture had a major impact, especially in my mothers region. The avatar photo gives an example very close to her place of birth.... But all speculative of course.

lukaszM
05-05-2017, 12:33 PM
Maybe Tumulus indeed.

Finn
05-05-2017, 01:15 PM
You have elevated North Atlantic and North Sea, low Italian & Iberian, also Central Euro. But higher East-Central Euro and especially East-Balkan which is mystery (in Denmark nobody have such high East-Balkan, in Holland one person among 26). Your Fennoscandian is like in Denmark.

You appear generally highly NW-Germanic with some slight south-east input (maybe from Austria, South Germany?).

Regarding East-Balkan, Maciamo, Eupedia mentions another option:

" Neolithic farmer components

- Arabian
- Armenian
- East_Balkan
- East_Med
- Iberian
- Italian
- Near_Eastern
- North_African
- Omotic
- West_Med

In Neolithic HUngary (Alföld LBK) and Germany (LBK), the main components were Iberian, Italian and West_Med.
In Funnelbeaker Sweden, had high levels of Iberian, East_Balkan and West_Med, but no Italian at all."

North Dutch was a Funnelbeaker hotspot:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture

Finn
05-05-2017, 06:45 PM
You have elevated North Atlantic and North Sea, low Italian & Iberian, also Central Euro. But higher East-Central Euro and especially East-Balkan which is mystery (in Denmark nobody have such high East-Balkan, in Holland one person among 26). Your Fennoscandian is like in Denmark.

You appear generally highly NW-Germanic with some slight south-east input (maybe from Austria, South Germany?).


Funnelbeaker or TRB part 2. This is what Jean M. stated here and in Ancestral Journeys.

"Not that I have any solid evidence for this in the form of a really distinctive aDNA signature, so it's just a suggestion. This is what I say:

The TRB was once seen as the result of local foragers adopting animal husbandry and new technology from their neighbours. This idea has been overturned by studies of ancient DNA. The Funnel Beaker peoples mainly carried mtDNA haplogroups typical of early farmers. Evidently migration spread this new way of life.

Copper axes and luxury wares from the Hungary-Serbia region travelled over 1000 km (620 miles) to the Baltic shore in the early 4th millennium BC. Another link lies in the Funnel Beaker pottery itself. Its decorative patterns were picked out with a paste made of bone. This technique originated in the Carpathian Basin. So the TRB may have been the result of farmers fleeing stricken settlements in the Balkans and Carpathian Basin for the milder climate of Northern Europe in this era. Later innovations such as wheeled vehicles, the plough and wool spinning seem to have fed into Funnel Beaker from its advanced southern neighbour, the Late Cucuteni-Tripolye culture.

Genome-wide comparisons show that a Funnel Beaker female from Sweden and contemporary farmers from Germany, despite being most closely related to early European farmers, had somewhat more hunter gatherer ancestry. The same is true of their probable source population in Hungary, and indeed farmers in Spain between 4000 and 3000 BC. It seems that as farmers extended their territory, they absorbed some of the foragers who were being pushed to the fringes and ultimately to the extinction of their way of life."