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Thread: Le Grenier indo-européen

  1. #1271
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    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Sinon, pour revenir sur la question des Belges (et donc des Morins et du Bloc du Nord Ouest), lire l'intro :
    https://books.google.fr/books?id=C40...onnais&f=false

    Et sur les questions des changements dans les toponymes:
    https://books.google.fr/books?id=BZB...onnais&f=false
    Last edited by ffoucart; 06-26-2018 at 09:57 AM.

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  3. #1272
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    Un ami a recensé tous les livres écrits sur les Indo-Européens, dans les principales langues européennes, depuis les 200 dernières années. Il y en a plus de mille.

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  5. #1273
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    Bonjour à tous, veuillez excuser le hors sujet. Je cherche à joindre Tolan au sujet de deux interrogations que j'ai formulées dans le fil consacré à ses 4 calculateurs, rubrique ADN autosomal. Il fréquente peu ce fil, je me disais que j'aurais davantage de chance de capter son attention ici. Merci bien et bonne journée.

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    Comme je ne suis pas du genre à me décourager, je continue de poser des questions. Cette fois c'est en rapport avec le calculateur d' "admixtures" modernes K47 de LukaszM. Il a partiellement répondu à mes questions, mais l'essentiel . Voici ce que je lui écrit et ce qu'il m'a répondu :


    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Hey Lukasz I have been trying to perform an nMonte analysis on my K47 results kind of like what Michal does with his K25 calculator to get something different to what Oracle provides... but to no avail. Although I feel like I did clean up the reference populations datafile you provide, I always seem to get the exact same R error message. Something about 'error in read.table' and then 'duplicated row.names being not allowed'. Does that ring a bell to anybody? Do you have any idea how to fix this?
    Post your result in here in nMonte way: 0,0.1 etc.
    Voici le message d'erreur envoyé par R :

    nMonte_k47.jpg

    Après quoi j'ai écrit le texte suivant pour savoir quoi modifier pour être ne mesure de réaliser mes propres calculs de type nMonte :

    Thanks for offering, here are the results in nMonte-compatible format :

    ,Kushitic,North-Iberian,East-Iberian,Tibeto-Burman,North-African,South-Caucasian,North-Caucasian,Paleo-Balkan,Turkic-Altai,Proto-Austronesian,Nilotic,East-Med,Omotic,Munda,North-Amerind,Arabic,East-Euro,Central-African_HG,Andean,Indo-Chinese,South-Indian,NE-Asian,Volgan,Mongolian,Siberian,North-Sea_Germanic,Celtic,West-African,West-Finnic,Uralic,Sahelian,NW-Indian,East-African_HG,East-Asian,Amuro-Manchurian,Scando-Germanic,Iranian,South-African_HG,Amazonian,Baltic,Malay,Meso-Amerind,South-Chinese,Papuan,West-Med,Pamirian,Central-Med
    me,2.08,15.85,4.84,0.00,4.17,2.66,0.00,1.82,0.00,0 .00,0.00,7.71,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,12.99,0.00,0.00, 0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,12.25,15.82,0.00,0.0 0,0.00,0.04,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,6.28,2.04,0.51,0.0 0,1.05,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,8.41,0.00,1.49

    Now, here is an excerpt of the populations datafile (from k47-dots.txt), still in what I believe to be nMonte format :

    ,Kushitic,North-Iberian,East-Iberian,Tibeto-Burman,North-African,South-Caucasian,North-Caucasian,Paleo-Balkan,Turkic-Altai,Proto-Austronesian,Nilotic,East-Med,Omotic,Munda,North-Amerind,Arabic,East-Euro,Central-African_HG,Andean,Indo-Chinese,South-Indian,NE-Asian,Volgan,Mongolian,Siberian,North-Sea_Germanic,Celtic,West-African,West-Finnic,Uralic,Sahelian,NW-Indian,East-African_HG,East-Asian,Amuro-Manchurian,Scando-Germanic,Iranian,South-African_HG,Amazonian,Baltic,Malay,Meso-Amerind,South-Chinese,Papuan,West-Med,Pamirian,Central-Med
    Aborigine,0.4415333333,0.0455,1.6811666667,2.8822, 0.001,0.001,0.001,0.001,0.3972333333,0.2067,0.001, 0.1717333333,0.001,9.4757333333,0.4909333333,0.603 6,0.001,0.6029666667,0.001,0.001,7.4462,1.88243333 33,0.3731333333,0.6884333333,0.4269333333,0.076366 6667,0.001,0.0808666667,0.5091666667,0.001,0.28286 66667,0.442,1.613,0.2495333333,0.7027333333,0.001, 0.2594666667,0.5797666667,0.001,0.6321333333,4.284 4666667,0.3015666667,0.0904666667,61.6294,0.001,0. 4346333333,0.001
    Aleut,0.0419444444,0.7412888889,1.6259888889,0.601 5222222,0.001,0.4582888889,1.2219111111,0.96838888 89,1.2018888889,0.0331222222,0.0803444444,0.137988 8889,0.0117,0.1939777778,9.4170666667,0.0212,16.26 96,0.001,2.6135444444,0.7484888889,0.1700444444,16 .1119777778,3.3228555556,0.9397,0.5356666667,3.209 4111111,2.0994111111,0.001,10.3806,2.7003555556,0. 0930333333,0.5773555556,0.001,0.0303333333,1.45453 33333,2.4706111111,0.9777444444,0.001,2.0849444444 ,9.2587777778,0.1389777778,4.8026111111,0.76462222 22,0.1322555556,0.1532555556,0.4694444444,0.7282
    Aleutlingit,0.0969,0.79755,0.1286,0.001,0.06875,0. 001,4.3803,1.97885,2.5931,0.001,0.001,0.001,0.001, 0.62995,7.56145,0.001,16.2599,0.001,2.05305,0.001, 0.001,15.2341,3.634,1.03385,0.27665,2.51275,5.0324 5,0.0868,10.69335,5.4111,0.001,0.001,0.001,0.3622, 0.001,2.86415,0.9909,0.4053,1.3084,6.10595,0.001,4 .9078,2.0947,0.13555,0.001,0.001,0.3447
    Algerian,9.5624694468,5.149130844,3.4195778497,0.0 01021022,24.8565336404,0.9655805447,0.3791492421,2 .1276349024,0.3313070665,0.001021022,1.2119823354, 9.0027451636,0.0913085426,0.297576874,0.001021022, 12.3501950991,0.4384997948,0.001021022,0.001021022 ,0.001021022,0.001021022,0.001021022,0.001021022,0 .001021022,0.001021022,0.4660090458,1.7886118265,8 .8377480017,0.1390632021,0.3494739658,0.7366090589 ,0.001021022,1.3596804668,0.001021022,0.001021022, 0.1828067035,0.7420204757,0.001021022,0.001021022, 0.1063102736,0.001021022,0.001021022,0.001021022,0 .0905646551,8.7345518453,0.001021022,6.2624386922
    AlgerianBerber,9.052,3.4,4.55,0.00,37.174,1.504,0. 038,0.636,0.00,0.224,0.00,11.278,0.554,0.298,0.232 ,9.246,0.00,0.25,0.00,0.302,0.208,0.00,0.102,0.00, 0,0.016,2.338,3.626,0.014,0.242,0.622,0.00,1.54,0. 00,0,0.686,0.848,0.314,0.154,0.228,0.00,0,0.018,0. 208,6.35,0.01,3.73
    French_Northwest,0.0010307255,7.8668288952,5.91615 80418,0.0010307255,0.8335705911,2.0840009189,1.750 4238,2.2157734438,0.0010307255,0.0367968992,0.0010 307255,3.0272406998,0.00,0.0010307255,0.0010307255 ,1.3682651539,8.6856715646,0.0010307255,0.00103072 55,0.0010307255,0.0010307255,0.0010307255,1.479594 957,0.0010307255,0.0010307255,17.4720221024,16.167 3870674,0.0010307255,4.7096938814,0.0010307255,0.0 010307255,0.861995709,0.0010307255,0.0010307255,0. 0010307255,9.0793170734,1.4289405265,0.00,0.001030 7255,3.2088316223,0.2493324907,0.0010307255,0.0010 307255,0.0010307255,5.2224339918,0.6598589922,5.20 30678055
    French_West,0.0010245063,5.8355468646,6.5994392467 ,0.0010245063,0.8514159548,0.9507315948,2.24358682 11,1.8366631666,0.0010245063,0.0010245063,0.001024 5063,0.3629928247,0.0010245063,0.0788869846,0.0010 245063,0.1428571575,10.2783184041,0.00,0.001024506 3,0.0010245063,0.0010245063,0.0010245063,1.2195108 208,0.0010245063,0.0010245063,14.5501408235,23.676 381411,0.0010245063,4.6584198691,0.100606518,0.001 0245063,0.39724207,0.0010245063,0.0010245063,0.001 0245063,11.7483005233,0.5615933696,0.0010245063,0. 0010245063,4.0606511823,0.0010245063,0.0010245063, 0.0010245063,0.0010245063,3.1288627089,1.929903484 3,4.7063974988

    Do you think it failed because the data were not averaged : French_Northwest + French_West for instance, instead of one single French category ? Lastly, this is what I typed in in the R console :

    source('nMonte.R')
    getMonte('averagedData.csv', 'test.csv', save='Example_results.txt')

    Was it correct ? Anyway I do appreciate your offer, but what I would really like is to find out why it did not work and how I could do it right by myself the next time round.
    Ce à quoi il a répondu :

    There is lack of British (except Orcadian) and German( spreadsheet is preliminary) so this is why Central Europe is here.
    En revanche je ne sais toujours comment amender le fichier qui contient les pourcentages des populations de référence, ni si c'est ce qui fait boguer R. Sauriez-vous éclairer ma lanterne ? Merci.

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  8. #1275
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    Décidément il est beaucoup question de "lanterne" aujourd'hui.
    Tu as raison de ne pas te décourager mais ce type de question, pas directement liée aux Indo-Européens, aurait plus sa place sur le Souk.

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  10. #1276
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    Badger, la réponse à ta question est dans le message d'erreur. Tu as dans ta matrice de références plusieurs lignes avec le même nom. Cela dit, cela peut être cela exactement, ou quelque chose d'autre que R interprète comme ça, par exemple des lignes ouvertes mais vides que tu ne vois pas. Un conseil: ouvre ton fichier avec un éditeur de texte, sous l'option "afficher les caractères non imprimables", et regarde ce qui traîne.
    edit: j'oubliais, vérifie que tu n'as pas de blancs dans les lignes. Même chose, tu utilises "remplace" ( remplace les "blancs" par "rien", éventuellement plusieurs fois).
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  12. #1277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camulogène Rix View Post
    Décidément il est beaucoup question de "lanterne" aujourd'hui.
    Tu as raison de ne pas te décourager mais ce type de question, pas directement liée aux Indo-Européens, aurait plus sa place sur le Souk.
    Au temps pour moi. La prochaine fois je publierai ce genre de message dans le fil ad hoc. Merci du renseignement, Camulogène.

  13. #1278
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Badger, la réponse à ta question est dans le message d'erreur. Tu as dans ta matrice de références plusieurs lignes avec le même nom. Cela dit, cela peut être cela exactement, ou quelque chose d'autre que R interprète comme ça, par exemple des lignes ouvertes mais vides que tu ne vois pas. Un conseil: ouvre ton fichier avec un éditeur de texte, sous l'option "afficher les caractères non imprimables", et regarde ce qui traîne.
    edit: j'oubliais, vérifie que tu n'as pas de blancs dans les lignes. Même chose, tu utilises "remplace" ( remplace les "blancs" par "rien", éventuellement plusieurs fois).
    Merci beaucoup, Anglesqueville. Je vais passer de nouveau le fichier de données au peigne fin avec Notepad++, je pensais pourtant l'avoir fait... Je dirai dans le fil "souk gaulois" si j'ai été capable de résoudre ce problème.

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  15. #1279
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    Petite question "chronologique"....Vu que la génétique a bien rebattue les cartes ces dernières années, une bonne partie de mes connaissance datant de la fac ne sont plus à jour et j'en perd un peu mon "latin"...

    On parle beaucoup des campaniformes et de leur impact sur la population, ensuite pas mal de discussions passent aux Celtes..mais il y aun gap entre les deux quand même. Sans même parler du Hallstatt quel est désormais la place de la "civilisation des champs d'urnes" par exemple ? quel est leur profil génétique à ceux là et où est-ce qu'il s'inscrivent désormais dans l'histoire des populations ? Vous avez des références récentes ? (je manque un peu de temps pour me lancer dans ces recherches biblio)

  16. #1280
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabrice E View Post
    Petite question "chronologique"....Vu que la génétique a bien rebattue les cartes ces dernières années, une bonne partie de mes connaissance datant de la fac ne sont plus à jour et j'en perd un peu mon "latin"...

    On parle beaucoup des campaniformes et de leur impact sur la population, ensuite pas mal de discussions passent aux Celtes..mais il y aun gap entre les deux quand même. Sans même parler du Hallstatt quel est désormais la place de la "civilisation des champs d'urnes" par exemple ? quel est leur profil génétique à ceux là et où est-ce qu'il s'inscrivent désormais dans l'histoire des populations ? Vous avez des références récentes ? (je manque un peu de temps pour me lancer dans ces recherches biblio)
    On n'a rien de substantiel sur les Champs d'Urnes: un seul individu I0099, de Halberstadt, identifié R1a Z280. Les autres viennent d'une vieille étude de 2006, avec des relevés d'haplogroupes extrêmement bizarres. J'ignore quel était la qualité de ces spécimens (luxembourgeois) http://dirkschweitzer.net/Lichtenste...ysis0804DS.pdf . On doit pouvoir trouver le texte (une thèse, en allemand). De toute manière, évidemment rien d'autosomal (2006!)
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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