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Thread: Trying to learn about my South Indian Roots

  1. #1
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    Trying to learn about my South Indian Roots

    Hi guys

    So I have had my FTDNA and Geno 2.0 done. FTDNA says I am 63% South Indian and the rest is classified as Adygei/Middle Eastern. Same with Geno 2.0 that says my ancestry is Northern Caucasian and South Indian. I know we have some Central Asian/Turkmen/Iranian ancestry in us and the results do show that side. Also had my results analyzed by Dr. Mcdonald who classified me as 39% Turkish and 61% South Indian with the following:

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Cypriot 0.2157 Burusho 0.4221 S_India 0.3622 or
    Turkish 0.3026 Burusho 0.2816 S_India 0.4158 or
    Armenian 0.2528 N_India 0.6192 Uygur 0.1280 or
    Georgian 0.2553 N_India 0.6195 Uygur 0.1253 or
    Armenian 0.2591 Hazara 0.1185 N_India 0.6224 or
    Armenian 0.2401 Burusho 0.4027 S_India 0.3572 or
    Georgian 0.2615 Hazara 0.1158 N_India 0.6227 or
    Adygei 0.3838 Hazara 0.0719 S_India 0.5443 or
    Adygei 0.3793 S_India 0.5431 Uygur 0.0775 or
    Adygei 0.3178 Burusho 0.2445 S_India 0.4377 or
    Turkish 0.2909 Hazara 0.0775 N_India 0.6316 or
    Turkish 0.2862 N_India 0.6297 Uygur 0.0841 or
    Adygei 0.2932 Hazara 0.0795 N_India 0.6273 or
    Georgian 0.2469 Burusho 0.3836 S_India 0.3695 or
    Cypriot 0.1784 Burusho 0.3755 N_India 0.4461 or
    Adygei 0.2884 N_India 0.6257 Uygur 0.0860 or
    Turkish 0.3809 Hazara 0.0708 S_India 0.5484 or
    Georgian 0.3324 S_India 0.5344 Uygur 0.1331 or
    Turkish 0.3764 S_India 0.5469 Uygur 0.0767 or
    Georgian 0.3396 Hazara 0.1228 S_India 0.5376 or
    Sicily 0.2106 Burusho 0.4290 S_India 0.3604 or
    Armenian 0.3290 S_India 0.5339 Uygur 0.1372 or
    Cypriot 0.2351 Hazara 0.1146 N_India 0.6503 or
    Armenian 0.1988 Burusho 0.3607 N_India 0.4406 or
    Turkish 0.2428 Burusho 0.2590 N_India 0.4981

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Anyways, since this was established (though the Turkmen was new to me but still some basis for it) I realized that I know nothing about my main South Indian heritage and have been trying to discover the roots of this. Our roots are in Northern India which made this all the more confusing since before these tests I thought we had no connection to South India. So I put my results into GEDMATCH and ran Dodecad K12b and K7b and these are the results for the 4 pop. match.

    K12b:
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Gond + Iranian + Meena + Turkmens @ 1.405
    2 Iranian + Meena + Nihali + Turkmens @ 1.704
    3 Kurd + Meena + Nihali + Turkmens @ 1.849
    4 Gond + Kurd + Meena + Turkmens @ 1.903
    5 Gond + Iyer + Kurds + Turkmens @ 1.907
    6 Gond + Iyer + Kurd + Turkmens @ 1.935
    7 Iranians + Meena + Nihali + Turkmens @ 1.937
    8 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu + Gond + Iranian + Turkmens @ 1.943
    9 Kurds + Meena + Nihali + Turkmens @ 1.951
    10 Gond + Iranian + Iyer + Turkmens @ 1.957
    11 Gond + Indian + Iranian + Turkmens @ 1.983
    12 Gond + Kurds + Meena + Turkmens @ 1.996
    13 Gond + Indian + Kurd + Turkmens @ 1.997
    14 Gond + Iranians + Meena + Turkmens @ 2.002
    15 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu + Gond + Kurd + Turkmens @ 2.003
    16 Gond + Indian + Kurds + Turkmens @ 2.077
    17 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu + Gond + Iranians + Turkmens @ 2.104
    18 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu + Gond + Kurds + Turkmens @ 2.124
    19 Azerbaijan_Jews + Burusho + Nihali + Pathan @ 2.174
    20 Gond + Iranians + Kshatriya + Turkmens @ 2.196

    K7b:
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Abhkasians + Gond + Muslim + Turkmens @ 0.551
    2 Abhkasians + Dharkars + Gond + Turkmens @ 0.587
    3 Abhkasians + Iyengar + Nihali + Turkmens @ 0.594
    4 Burusho + Nihali + Pathan + Uzbekistan_Jews @ 0.705
    5 Abhkasians + Iyer + Nihali + Turkmens @ 0.712
    6 Abhkasians + Gond + Tharus + Turkmens @ 0.745
    7 Gond + Iranian + Meena + Turkmens @ 0.794
    8 Georgians + Gond + Muslim + Turkmens @ 0.840
    9 Abhkasians + Gond + Kanjars + Turkmens @ 0.841
    10 Abhkasians + Indian + Nihali + Turkmens @ 0.874
    11 Abhkasians + Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu + Nihali + Turkmens @ 0.901
    12 Azerbaijan_Jews + Burusho + Nihali + Pathan @ 0.909
    13 Abhkasians + Gond + Meghawal + Turkmens @ 0.970
    14 Dharkars + Georgians + Gond + Turkmens @ 1.035
    15 Abhkasians + Chenchus + Gond + North_Ossetians @ 1.053
    16 Abhkasians + Gond + INS30 + Turkmens @ 1.093
    17 Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh + Brahmins_from_Uttaranchal + Georgia_Jews + Iyer @ 1.101
    18 Cochin_Jews + Georgians + Nihali + Tajiks @ 1.120
    19 Georgians + Gond + Kanjars + Turkmens @ 1.126
    20 Assyrian + Burusho + Nihali + Pathan @ 1.143



    How accurate is this? I notice the Gond come up a lot and was reading about them. There seems to be quite a bit in Utter Pradesh where we are mostly from. Also don't understand what "muslim" pop. is but I was reading about the Dharkar and they also seem to be in Utter Pradesh. K12b seems to be accurate on the Iranian/Turkmen area and placed Gond/Meena as my other populations. Am I close to solving this mystery?

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rockman For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (06-09-2013),  NK19191 (07-23-2013),  Silesian (06-09-2013)

  3. #2
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    If we take South Indian as one-half, the other half is averaging around Turkmenistan. However that could simply mean you are from the average of South India and Turkmenistan, which is somewhere around the India/Pakistan border (i.e. 39% of the way from South India to Turkey, which I believe puts you somewhere a little into Pakistan). Did your ancestors live in what is now Pakistan and come to India during the partition for religious reasons?
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    If we take South Indian as one-half, the other half is averaging around Turkmenistan. However that could simply mean you are from the average of South India and Turkmenistan, which is somewhere around the India/Pakistan border (i.e. 39% of the way from South India to Turkey, which I believe puts you somewhere a little into Pakistan). Did your ancestors live in what is now Pakistan and come to India during the partition for religious reasons?
    Hello AJL

    Yes that's what Dr. Mcdonald gave me, as resembling Pakistan. But we have no racial links to Pakistan, our family comes from Northern India (Utter Pradesh and West Bengal). We have links to Oghuz Turks who formed a dynasty in South East India and I assume that this probably comes from them but we don't have much knowledge of this beyond this one figure but central asia is cited as one of our origins. Also my maternal side is said to be from Shiraz and Isphahan in Iran and Nordoid Iranian phenotypes are seen among 3rd cousins (who are not as mixed as us) so I know we have links to Iran though it doesn't show up as prominently.

    We are basically Northern Indians of mixed heritage, but the biggest mystery is my South Indian link since I never knew about this before. In fact I know next to nothing about my Indian ancestry despite it being at 60-64%

    This is what Dr. Mcdonald wrote to me:

    "which, as you see, are adding India, Pakistan or the Uygur, and the real Mideast.
    This means that its in-between, or actually mixed. The spot on the map
    is clearly Pakistan ... but no Pakistani group is even a modestly pasable fit, all are abysmal.
    So its probably mixed."
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by rockman; 06-09-2013 at 07:36 PM.

  5. #4
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    Okay, that makes sense -- an average between northern India and southern Iran would give you a spot in Pakistan but poor matching to actual people from there. It's hard to say exactly what proprtion of your ancestry is from either place, but there's where you could hope to use records to tease a little information out.

    If you haven't already, you may want to join the Harappa Project, which will probably give better genetic analysis for you than Geno 2.0.

    Incidentally, "phenotype" just means the physical manifestation of your genes, and "Nordoid" is really not a phrase that scientists or anthropologists have used for perhaps 50 years.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to AJL For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (06-09-2013)

  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    Okay, that makes sense -- an average between northern India and southern Iran would give you a spot in Pakistan but poor matching to actual people from there. It's hard to say exactly what proprtion of your ancestry is from either place, but there's where you could hope to use records to tease a little information out.

    If you haven't already, you may want to join the Harappa Project, which will probably give better genetic analysis for you than Geno 2.0.

    Incidentally, "phenotype" just means the physical manifestation of your genes, and "Nordoid" is really not a phrase that scientists or anthropologists have used for perhaps 50 years.
    Ahh, gotcha.

    So where can I join the Harappa Project?

  8. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by azardeys View Post
    Ahh, gotcha.

    So where can I join the Harappa Project?
    http://www.harappadna.org/participation/

    Enjoy!
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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     rockman (06-22-2013)

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    Which R1b clade do you carry?

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    It is likely, in my opinion, your non-South-Asian genetic component is displayed as North Caucasian rather than Iranian because of the reference samples FTDNA has used.

    I was provided the results of a fully Iranian FTDNA FF participant over one year ago, who showed a large portion of ancestry coming from the North Caucasus despite their known ancestry being predominantly from Northeast Iran.

    After exploring the matter further, it is probable that FTDNA's reference Iranians are from Behar et al., who are presumably from south Iran if their elevated African and Southwest Asian autosomal components are anything to go by (supported by Harappa's analysis several years back).

    So, those with a chunk of ancestry from the mountain zone encompassing (or around) the upper Zagros and Alborz mountains could to be shown as having North Caucasian rather than Iranian ancestry on FTDNA.

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     rockman (06-24-2013)

  13. #9
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    newtoboard: I am only R1b

    DMXX: Interesting that you say that, I was looking at the Zagros mountains on Google Maps and noticed it is very close to Isfahan and Shiraz. I guess at this time it won't be possible to pinpoint what groups we belong to until there are larger sample sizes? One thing is for sure we do have stories linking us to Iran and Central Asia, and the Turkmen are in the Caucasus/Central Asian range. What do you think of my Dodecad K12b results, the Iranian and Turkmen do fit so do you think my Indian component is also fairly accurate, more specifically the Gondi (or wider "Adivasi" that Gondi is a part of)? How accurate are the distances that it calculates?

    Also these are my Geno 2.0 results:

    Are North East Asian and "Native American" found frequently among Iranians or this is possibly just Central Asian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by azardeys View Post
    newtoboard: I am only R1b

    DMXX: Interesting that you say that, I was looking at the Zagros mountains on Google Maps and noticed it is very close to Isfahan and Shiraz. I guess at this time it won't be possible to pinpoint what groups we belong to until there are larger sample sizes? One thing is for sure we do have stories linking us to Iran and Central Asia, and the Turkmen are in the Caucasus/Central Asian range. What do you think of my Dodecad K12b results, the Iranian and Turkmen do fit so do you think my Indian component is also fairly accurate, more specifically the Gondi (or wider "Adivasi" that Gondi is a part of)? How accurate are the distances that it calculates?

    Also these are my Geno 2.0 results:

    Are North East Asian and "Native American" found frequently among Iranians or this is possibly just Central Asian?
    The distances for the 4-way pop matches are in the 1-2 range, so they're very good fits. It does look like you're half Subcontinental and half from the Iranian plateau.

    Also, part of the NE Asian will come from the Iranian-Turkmen type heritage, although the Native American probably doesn't.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     rockman (06-24-2013)

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