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Thread: M343* has an elevated presence in northern Iran among several Iranian speaking groups

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    M343* has an elevated presence in northern Iran among several Iranian speaking groups

    This fairly new paper is interesting in terms of R1b in Iran

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0041252

    The very rare root R-M343* has a better representation than normal in Iran. It rises to a spectacular 4.3% among the ethnic Pesians of Yazd a little north of centre and and 3.2 among Azeri of Azerbaijan in the north-west. It also shows among the Gilaks of Gilan in the extreme north, the Persians of Khorasan in the north-east and the Kurds of Kurdestan in the north-west in lower numbers. It is absent in the southern half of Iran. Persians, Kurds, Azeri (formerly) and Gilaks are/were Iranian speakers.

    However the age that this clade branches from all the rest of the surviving R1b lines is extremely old and Palaeolithic in date.
    Last edited by alan; 06-09-2013 at 09:17 PM.

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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    This fairly new paper is interesting in terms of R1b in Iran

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0041252

    The very rare root R-M343* has a better representation than normal in Iran. It rises to a spectacular 4.3% among the ethnic Pesians of Yazd a little north of centre and and 3.2 among Azeri of Azerbaijan in the north-west. It also shows among the Gilaks of Gilan in the extreme north, the Persians of Khorasan in the north-east and the Kurds of Kurdestan in the north-west in lower numbers. It is absent in the southern half of Iran. The ethnicities - Persians, Kurds, Azeri and Gilaks all seem to be Iranian speakers. However the age that this clade diverged from all the rest is extremely old and Palaeolithic in date.

    Azeris are Turkic speakers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_language

    However, they probably derive most of their ancestry from people who spoke this.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Azeri_language

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Azeris are Turkic speakers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_language

    However, they probably derive most of their ancestry from people who spoke this.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Azeri_language
    changed to 'former'

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    Mods can someone fix the title should be M343!

    I realise that the Iranian speaking part is an entirely different period from the extreme age of the branching off of this clade from the other R1b lines., However that, the geography and the age are interesting. The age of the separation of M343* from all the P25 lines must be very ancient given that the age of P25 has been estimate at someting like 15000 years or so. The geography is obviously the entire north of Iran, the present or recent linguistic affliation seems very much Iranian in this area. I wonder though whether it suggests a north Iran refugium or a minority clade brought from somewhere further north by the entry of Iranian speakers into Iran. I suppose it would be very interesting to see the variance or coalecense age of Itanian M343* to see if the age in Iran is anywhere near as old as the likely age of the clade.

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    Alan, I pulled the Balanovsky 2011 Haplotypes and here is the Ossets and Circassians R1b* M343(xM269) TMRCA's with a Interclade Modal top age of 7,461 +-1,413 YBP. Sorry No Italian M343 data.

    Note: I used ancestral N* & O3 SNP HTs in CladeB from the same study. MJost

    YrsPerGen* Count IntraClade Coalescence (n-1) Age Mean Generations StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP Mean VAR SD
    30 N=5 Clade A: R1b* 118.8 62.6 3,563.2 1,878.0 5,441.1 3.600 1.897
    30 N=8 Clade B: N* & O3 237.1 88.5 7,114.0 2,653.5 9,767.5 7.188 2.681
    Diff = 118.4 3,550.8 4,326.4
    YrsPerGen* Count Intraclade Founder's Modal Age Modal Gen Age StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP Modal FVAR Modal FSD
    30 N=5 Clade A: R1b* 184.8 78.1 5,542.7 2,342.2 7,885.0 5.600 2.366
    30 N=8 Clade B: N* & O3 371.2 110.7 11,134.9 3,319.8 14,454.7 11.250 3.354
    Diff = 186.4 5,592.2 6,569.8
    YrsPerGen* TRUE MRCA InterClade GAB Generations StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP PooledVar Pooled SD
    30 Pooled SD Clades A & B InterClade Coalescence (n-1) Age: N* & O3 for R1b* & N* & O3 318.3 102.5 9,548.2 3,074.2 12,622.4 9.647 3.106
    30 Pooled SD Clades A & B Interclade Modal Founder's: N* & O3 for R1b* & N* & O3 248.7 47.1 7,460.8 1,412.8 8,873.6 3.712 1.927
    Edit. The Bird q stable STRs used were
    390 391 439 458 437 448 GataH4 456 635
    Last edited by MJost; 06-09-2013 at 06:16 PM.
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Mods can someone fix the title should be M343!

    I realise that the Iranian speaking part is an entirely different period from the extreme age of the branching off of this clade from the other R1b lines., However that, the geography and the age are interesting. The age of the separation of M343* from all the P25 lines must be very ancient given that the age of P25 has been estimate at someting like 15000 years or so. The geography is obviously the entire north of Iran, the present or recent linguistic affliation seems very much Iranian in this area. I wonder though whether it suggests a north Iran refugium or a minority clade brought from somewhere further north by the entry of Iranian speakers into Iran. I suppose it would be very interesting to see the variance or coalecense age of Itanian M343* to see if the age in Iran is anywhere near as old as the likely age of the clade.
    Seriously? I laughed. Nothing to indicate this existed among Indo-Iranian speakers. If any IE ethnic groups were free of R1b it was and still is Indo-Iranian speakers. Its absence in Central Asia, Afghanistan and South Asia makes it pretty clear this has more to do with Iran being in West Asia.

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    I fixed the bad link to the paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Seriously? I laughed. Nothing to indicate this existed among Indo-Iranian speakers. If any IE ethnic groups were free of R1b it was and still is Indo-Iranian speakers. Its absence in Central Asia, Afghanistan and South Asia makes it pretty clear this has more to do with Iran being in West Asia.
    Given this report, it is pretty obvious your statement above is incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Seriously? I laughed. Nothing to indicate this existed among Indo-Iranian speakers. If any IE ethnic groups were free of R1b it was and still is Indo-Iranian speakers. Its absence in Central Asia, Afghanistan and South Asia makes it pretty clear this has more to do with Iran being in West Asia.
    I actually think the idea of a refugia in the Caspian may be more likely but I have to say its utter lunacy to think a displaced population from the steppes who had been wandering there for many centuries before entering iran is going to be mono-clade group. That the sort of stuff Polako comes out with. As far as I can see from later history, steppe mobile groups hoovered up everyone in their paths and became extremely mixed. Its clearly a complete myth the idea of them killing all males in their path. Look at the DNA of Tatars. Probably one of the most mixed up yDNA in Eurasia and only a minority relating to their far eastern roots. Remember too when thinking of ancient DNA that Kurgans probably are the cemeteries of elite mono-lineages not the population in general.

    However while I believe that in principle I have tonight finally come to a conclusion about R1b that I think can explain everything. There may have been a very long refugium for R1b in the southern half of the Caspian (as per the subject of this thread). It stated in an area where farming didnt catch on until 4 or 5000BC when M269 and M73 took off- either in the Caucasus or north Iran. The take off of R1b under those clades really started and ended a near complete anticlockwise circle loop around the Black Sea starting with Maykop c. 4000BC in the north Caucasus (which had trade links with Iran and Uruk - is this the source of L23 Assyrians?), then filtering into the steppe and then the Balkans c. 4000-3500BC before a series of moves of later Balkan IEs ended in north-east Anatolia/the south Caucases with the Armenians etc. This completed the circumpontic circle, explains all the dates and agrees with ethnic distrlbutions and ancient historians.

    The Maykop people had been bilingual NE Caucasian and IE speakers given their position (and also in contact with Uruk - perhaps the suggested IE Eurphratian element in Sumerian derives from this). Its a bit of an IF but if Maykop derived metalworkers really did make it as far west as Iberia c. 3000BC via Italy c. 3500BC then it is possible that at that stage a vanguard of Maykop derived CMP metalworkers would have moved off when the intrusion and mixing with the true steppes cultures was only just commencing and the Maykop peoples were still speaking a NE Caucasian dialect. A couple of hundred years later and the same lineage would have passed into and through the steppes.

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  17. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The very rare root R-M343* has a better representation than normal in Iran.
    Unfortunately my PC is out and I am seeing this only now at my school. But where have you seen all these R-M343*?
    “With the exception of five chromosomes belonging to the paragroup R1b-M269* and three chromosomes clustering in the “European” sub-haplogroup R1b-M412, all the M269 Y chromosomes belong to the R1b-L23 clade.”

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