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Thread: Celto-Italic

  1. #1
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    Celto-Italic

    I found this modern book on the subject when looking at other papers by the author on the web

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=f...ropean&f=false

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Andrew Lancaster (06-12-2013),  Kopfjäger (06-21-2013)

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    I finally found a lexicon for Proto-Celtic.

    "Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Celtic" by Matasović edited by Brill in 2009
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2MQ...it?usp=sharing

    Now, I need to get one for Proto-Italic.

    If we could ever find words that are both Proto-Italic and Proto-Celtic but beyond PIE maybe they would tell us something about where Italo-Celtic germinated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Now, I need to get one for Proto-Italic.

    If we could ever find words that are both Proto-Italic and Proto-Celtic but beyond PIE maybe they would tell us something about where Italo-Celtic germinated.
    I found this.

    "Etymological Dictionary of Latin and the other Italic Languages" by de Vaan, edited by Lubotsky
    http://historiantigua.cl/wp-content/...cLanguages.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I found this.

    "Etymological Dictionary of Latin and the other Italic Languages" by de Vaan, edited by Lubotsky
    http://historiantigua.cl/wp-content/...cLanguages.pdf
    Thanks for posting that. That looks an interest (and long!) read.

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    I just saw this. Very nice! It will take awhile to get through though...

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    Celtic apparently has few non-IE words non-IE words, far less than have been suggested for Germanic for instance. Non-IE Proto-Celtic words included Raven, Badger, Salmon, berry, strawberry, seaweed, ocean, rushes, heather, swamp, nettle, varous pig/boar words, skin, mouse, herb, wolf, wood, stone, garlic, cloak, stag, elk, ram, bird of prey, rushes, stick etc. Gaelic added Salmon (another term), herring, lobster, crab, winkle and Hare to this list.

    The general pattern is borrowing of of words for wild resources.

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    The proto-Celtic lexicon Mike posted expanded on this list of non-IE words in proto-Celtic:

    The following is an alphabetical list of Proto-Celtic forms for which a
    substrate origin can be assumed; in each case it is indicated whether the
    etymon in question is attested in Continental Celtic, and whether it has likely
    cognates in the neighbouring IE dialects (Germanic and Italic).
    1. *alten- 'razor'
    2. *amaro- 'wailing, crying'
    3. *andera 'young woman' (probably attested in Gaulish)
    4. *bando- 'peak, top' (attested in Gaulish; possible cognates in
    Germanic)
    5. *banwo- 'young pig, piglet' (attested in Gaulish)
    6. *baski- 'bundle' (probable cognates in Italic)
    7. *birro- 'short' (attested in Gaulish)
    8. *blVdV- 'wolf, large predator'
    9. *bodyo- 'yellow' (attested in Gaulish, probable cognates in Italic)
    10. *brano- 'raven' (attested in Gaulish)
    11. *bratto-, *brattino- 'mantle, cloak'
    12. *brokko- 'badger' (attested in Gaulish)
    13. *bunno- 'awl, bittern'
    14. *bussu- 'lip' (probably attested in Gaulish)
    15. *buta'house, dwelling, hut'
    16. *druko- 'bad'
    17. *durno- 'fist'
    18. *esok- 'salmon' (attested in Gaulish)
    442 APPENDIX
    19. *gweno- 'smile'
    20. *gulbV-, *gulbmo- 'beak' (probably attested in Gaulish)
    21. *gurmo- 'dun, dark'
    22. *kag-o- 'get, receive' (probable cognates in Italic)
    23. *kagyo- 'pen, enclosure' (possible cognates in Germanic)
    24. *kalmiyo- 'skilful, skilled'
    25. *kani- 'good, nice'
    26. *karbanto- 'war chariot' (attested in Gaulish)
    27. *kasnina 'garlic, leek' (probably attested in Gaulish)
    28. *katrik- 'fortification' (probable cognates in Germanic)
    29. *kayto- 'wood' (cognates in Germanic)
    30. *klamo- 'sick, suffering from leprosy'
    31. *kluka 'stone, rock'
    32. *knu 'nut' (probable cognates in Italic and Celtic)
    33. *koligno- 'pup, small animal'
    34. *koret- 'palisade, stone wall' (possible cognates in Germanic)
    35. *korkkyo- 'oats' (probable cognates in Germanic)
    36. *kotto- 'old' (probably attested in Gaulish)
    37. *kritta 'body, frame, shape'
    38. *krok(ke)no- 'skin' (probably attested in Gaulish)
    39. *krumbo- 'round, curved' (probable cognates in Germanic)
    40. *krundi- 'round, compact'
    41. *krutto- 'round object, womb'
    42. *kwezdi- 'piece, portion' (attested in Gaulish)
    43. *lero- 'diligent'
    44. *liro- 'sea, ocean'
    45. *lomana 'rope, thong'
    46. *lubl/a 'herb, plant' (probable cognates in Germanic)
    47. *lukot- 'mouse'
    48. *luxtu- 'content, crowd'
    49. *makina 'bellow' (probable cognates in Germanic and Baltic)
    50. *maylo- 'bald' (possible cognates in Germanic)
    51. *mazdyo- 'stick' (cognates in Italic and Germanic)
    52. *mesal-ka 'blackbird' (cognates in Italic and Germanic)
    53. *menado- 'awl'
    54. *metto- 'decay, blight, shame'
    55. *mokku- 'pig'
    56. *molto- 'ram, wether' (probably attested in Gaulish)
    57. *ninati- 'nettle' (probable cognates in Germanic and Baltic)
    58. *nino- 'ash-tree' (possibly attested in Gaulish)
    59. *nusso-, *nowsso- 'first milk, colostrum'
    60. *rem(r)o- 'fat, thick'
    61. *rendi- 'point, peak'
    62. *rowk(k)- / *ruk- 'tunic, mantle' (cognates in Germanic and
    Slavic)
    APPENDIX 443
    63. *runa 'secret' (possible cognates in Germanic)
    64. *sebro- 'demon, spectre'
    65. *sfrawo- 'crow' (possible cognates in Germanic, Baltic, and
    Italic)
    66. *sido- 'elk, stag'
    67. *skamo- 'light' (possible cognates in Germanic)
    68. *skublo- 'bird of prey' (probably attested in Gaulish)
    69. *slad-yo- 'hit, slay'
    70. *slatta 'stalk, staff (possible cognates in Germanic)
    71. *swanto- 'treasure, what is desired'
    72. *smero- 'berry'
    73. *subi- 'strawberry'
    74. *sukko- 'pig'
    75. *tago- 'strangle, choke'
    76. *torrV- 'belly'
    77. *trussko- 'dirty, leprous'
    78. *trusto- 'noise, cry'
    79. *wesakko-, *wesakko- 'grebe, raven'
    80. *wet(t)a 'stream, swamp'
    81. *wimona'seaweed'
    82. *wriggant- 'vermin' (possibly attested in Gaulish)
    83. *wroyko- 'heather' (possible cognates in Balto-Slavic)
    84. *yoyni- 'rushes, reed' (probable cognates in Italic and Germanic)
    85. *yutV- 'pap, porridge' (possibly attested in Gaulish)
    The number of substrate words in Proto-Celtic is actually surprisingly low.
    Only 85 out of the total 1490 Proto-Celtic words can be ascribed to a non-IE
    substrate, which is under 6%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The number of substrate words in Proto-Celtic is actually surprisingly low.
    Only 85 out of the total 1490 Proto-Celtic words can be ascribed to a non-IE substrate, which is under 6%.
    Is this a valid interpretation?

    I would think that if the substrate is minimal that means that the new language was pretty much dominated by the people who spoke the superstrate language.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratum_%28linguistics%29

    Genetically, this might imply that the Proto-Celtic speakers primarily consisted of Pre-Celtic (or Italo-Celtic if you ascribe to it) people. I doubt if many will think that is an outstanding find, but I think this puts a mininum age (floor) on when R1b-P312 types learned IE. They must have been speaking it prior to the time of Proto-Celtic. Can we put floors in place on other IE languages.

    In the case of Proto-Italic, can we see what proportion of substrate words are?
    Last edited by TigerMW; 06-21-2013 at 06:54 PM.

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    Mike I dont think I understand your logic on this one. It seems to imply to me that Proto-Celtic groups to some extent remained aloof or a separate case from the local non-IE groups they were settled among, only taking words for mainly natural wild things that were maybe peripheral to their field of interest. I have tended to see the R1b expansion as initially a small elite before they multiplied over many centuries. To maintain that level of non-absorbtion of non-IE when they were a small group initially they must have basically formed a caste on the male lines that expanded but did not let many locals into the caste. That would seem to be the story of yDNA in the Celtic world.
    Last edited by alan; 06-21-2013 at 07:22 PM.

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    Interestingly, the Celts are known to have been very much into lineages, clans etc but the Germans seem to have been less so. They tended in later times to be more inclusive and to tend to form warbands around a lord without lineage being a factor. This seems a different modus operandi to the later Celts anyway who tended to grow in strength as their own clan did. Even their clients appear to have tended to often be some sort of cousin of lower status. If these contrasting patterns noted in later times were present among those peoples back in proto times then this might go a long way to explaining both the yDNA patterns and the contrast in amount of non-IE vocab in the two languages.

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