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Thread: The risky life of my Y-DNA

  1. #11
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    geebee is correct.

    You'd have to take into consideration every single male relative of your line - let's limit it to 4th cousins - and just rough estimating with NPEs let's say at the very least 50% of them possess the exact same or very, very close match Y-DNA as you. Not entirely unheard of. Y-DNA & mtDNA can take generations upon generations to change. I know of a Yorkshireman who shares more than just quite a few Y-DNA markers with a guy from Normandy.

    But, on the reverse, through the fluke of occasional very-rapid-mutation it can mean you and your great-grandson may not even share the same exact Y-DNA mutations. I read somewhere, I'll see if I can find it again, about son & father being viewed as different branches of the same haplogroup because of this. So you'd be related but not near-copies of one another. If that sort of rapid mutation happens, however, that means your exact "one-of-a-kind" Y-DNA has the potential of "dying out" regardless of direct ancestry.

    Sites like FTDNA don't advertise that though. That little "glitch" in human inheritance doesn't quite sell as well as the novel concept of tracing your family back ions.

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  3. #12
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    I've had a look at my own yDNA line -

    Myself (one of four sons, we have one sister)
    My dad (one of two sons, he has one sister although their brother died at a very young age)
    My grandfather (one of two sons, had one sister)
    My great grandfather (one of three sons)
    My great great grandfather (one of three sons, had three sisters)
    My great great great grandfather (one of three sons)
    My great great great great grandfather (as far as I know, one of two sons and had one sister. However, a newspaper article in the 1830s seems to be about his father. If it is, then he was one of almost 25 children, albeit from six different wives).
    My great great great great great grandfather (one sister known, not sure about any other siblings)

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by geebee View Post
    How do you know it's about to expire? You've mentioned three male cousins with only female children. Are these 1st cousins? Then how about 2nd cousins? 3rd? 4th? How far back can you go before the precursor of your Y chromosome isn't substantially equivalent? If you don't know that, you can't really say whether your Y chromosome is "about to expire".

    But will it do so eventually? Almost certainly, if only through the eventual accumulation of mutations -- no matter how far down it might be passed. After all, it's hypothesized that every Y chromosome that now exists could be traced to the same man -- the misleadingly-named "Y Adam".
    Two of the cousins I referred to are 2nd cousins. I don't have any YDNA line 3rd cousins, because my great grandfather had only one brother and he died young. The brothers of my great-great-grandafther remained in England but I have not been successful in identifying any 4th cousins I may have in the Y line, who may be in England or might be in some other country. I do know I have more distant YDNA cousins in England, but the last two in the male line do not as yet have any male children, though they may do so in future.

    I was simply trying to make the point that a family that has produced many male children can end abruptly by eventually having only female descendants. I think this possibility is exacerbated by the modern tendency to have only one or two children, or to choose not to have any children at all.

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    I was simply trying to make the point that a family that has produced many male children can end abruptly by eventually having only female descendants.
    I guess this is the part that puzzles me. Why is a "family" ended, just because the male line may end? You're saying that my daughter is somehow less a part of me than a son would be? Or that her children would be less "family" to me, simply because they probably wouldn't share my name?

    In point of fact, my daughter shares more DNA with me than a son would, and she shares as much nuclear DNA with me as she does with her mother. (Obviously, her mtDNA is from her mother.)

    The OP and you are both correct that a Y line can vanish very easily. In fact, it's pretty much inevitable. That is, after all, what the significance of "Y Adam" is. Every Y chromosome lineage the existed during his lifetime -- except for his own -- has now disappeared. And even his own Y line has experienced significant divergence since it came into being.

    And in the future, it seems likely that the process will occur again. Y lines are kind of like both the Highlander and Doritos at the same time. On the one hand it's, "In the end there can be only one"; and on the other, "Don't worry we'll make more".

    EDIT: And we probably shouldn't even get started on Y Adam's purported ancestor, ante Adam, proposed to have lived over half a million years ago. http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297(16)30033-7

    I expect your Y chromosome and mine have many, many differences from his -- and from each other -- but it is still very likely that human Y chromosome diversity is far, far less than general human diversity. That's one reason, I'd expect, why no one would think of trying to "paint" a Y chromosome.

    2nd EDIT: I did find this, which may be of some interest --

    http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...l.pgen.1004064
    Last edited by geebee; 04-03-2017 at 03:18 AM.
    Besides British-German-Catalan, ancestry includes smaller amounts of French, Irish, Swiss, Choctaw & another NA tribe, possibly Catawba. Avatar picture is: my father, his father, & his father's father; baby is my eldest brother.

    GB

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    Quote Originally Posted by geebee View Post
    I guess this is the part that puzzles me. Why is a "family" ended, just because the male line may end? You're saying that my daughter is somehow less a part of me than a son would be? Or that her children would be less "family" to me, simply because they probably wouldn't share my name?
    It ends from a YDNA testing point of view. If you change any line to include any females, those do not get passed via YDNA. Then you are stuck with atDNA testing which has limits on the number of generations that it can determine relatedness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geebee View Post
    I guess this is the part that puzzles me. Why is a "family" ended, just because the male line may end? You're saying that my daughter is somehow less a part of me than a son would be? Or that her children would be less "family" to me, simply because they probably wouldn't share my name?

    In point of fact, my daughter shares more DNA with me than a son would, and she shares as much nuclear DNA with me as she does with her mother. (Obviously, her mtDNA is from her mother.)

    The OP and you are both correct that a Y line can vanish very easily. In fact, it's pretty much inevitable. That is, after all, what the significance of "Y Adam" is. Every Y chromosome lineage the existed during his lifetime -- except for his own -- has now disappeared. And even his own Y line has experienced significant divergence since it came into being.

    And in the future, it seems likely that the process will occur again. Y lines are kind of like both the Highlander and Doritos at the same time. On the one hand it's, "In the end there can be only one"; and on the other, "Don't worry we'll make more".

    EDIT: And we probably shouldn't even get started on Y Adam's purported ancestor, ante Adam, proposed to have lived over half a million years ago. http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297(16)30033-7

    I expect your Y chromosome and mine have many, many differences from his -- and from each other -- but it is still very likely that human Y chromosome diversity is far, far less than general human diversity. That's one reason, I'd expect, why no one would think of trying to "paint" a Y chromosome.

    2nd EDIT: I did find this, which may be of some interest --

    http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...l.pgen.1004064
    Not to mention the work of Bonnie Schrack and Thomas Krahn unearthing A00 and doing ongoing sampling in Cameroon

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929713000736

    https://www.facebook.com/A00.Cameroon.Project/
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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertCasey View Post
    It ends from a YDNA testing point of view. If you change any line to include any females, those do not get passed via YDNA. Then you are stuck with atDNA testing which has limits on the number of generations that it can determine relatedness.
    That's true. But it only ends going forward. Any man concerned about the potential ending of his Y DNA line doesn't have a problem in the here and now. Of course, half the population is already unable to do Y testing, unless they have a brother or father or other patrilineal male relative willing to test.

    For those of us who are somewhat admixed, the Y line is not necessarily in our majority population to begin with (assuming we have one). This isn't true for me, because my Y line is German and I'm probably close to ancestrally half German.

    However, it is true of my mtDNA line. That traces to my French ancestry, which is a rather tiny fraction of the whole. Yet if the sexes of one of my ancestor couples had been reversed, my mtDNA would have been Native American -- which represents an even tinier fraction of my ancestry (about 2%).
    Last edited by geebee; 04-03-2017 at 04:07 PM.
    Besides British-German-Catalan, ancestry includes smaller amounts of French, Irish, Swiss, Choctaw & another NA tribe, possibly Catawba. Avatar picture is: my father, his father, & his father's father; baby is my eldest brother.

    GB

  14. #18
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    I probably did not make myself clear in the original post, but my focus on male descendants in this thread is because Y-DNA is passed only from father to son. It has absolutely nothing to do with any form of male chauvinism, but no matter how emancipated women are here in Scandinavia, they still do not pass on Y-DNA
    There was simply no general Y-DNA or haplogroup subforum, so I posted here.

    It is obvious that a man can have innumerable descendants, when all offspring is counted.
    What surprised me was how thin the uninterupted male descendant lines are, which does explain why one single haplogroup can become succesful over the years, while other simply die out and dissapear.

    "Stephen1986" got it right - but the job is not finished yet
    What you have to do now is trace all those brother lines down to today - how many men are living today with the Y-DNA of your great great great great grandfather?
    If sources are scarce, then jump one generation down and give it a try! I am quite curious!
    Maybe it is just my great great great great great grandfathers line which nearly died out in several generations?

    Kind regards
    Anders

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  16. #19
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    I personally don't see anything wrong with a man identifying with his y-dna line for the simple reason that he himself is a male, his y-dna represents his unbroken male line, and, in most cases, it is the one that carries the surname he himself bears. That doesn't mean he doesn't love his mother, his sisters, his daughters, etc. It simply means that as a man he feels a special connection to his fathers, in the same way that a woman might identify with her mtDNA line and yet still love her father, brothers, etc.

    For me, my y-dna line bears a special significance that no other part of my pedigree does. For that reason, it is a matter of considerable sadness to think of it "daughtering out" and going extinct.

    My umpteenth-great y-dna grandsons may not carry any of my autosomal dna, but they will bear the y chromosome I handed down from my fathers, perhaps somewhat altered by mutations, but not untraceable. It is an indelible badge of patrimony.
    Last edited by rms2; 04-03-2017 at 10:47 PM.

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    Similar situation. I don't have any sons, my father only had myself, and my only Y-related cousin has a young son approaching his teens. It's really hard to say how it's going to go from here on in... I know from my particular R1b-Z220-S21884-FGC13557-A7066 group, we didn't leave very many descendants. However, we are widespread in western Europe dating back several thousand years. Perhaps we got our asses handed to us by the Romans and were killed off.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
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    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

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