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Thread: Re-theorising ... the Corded Ware Culture (Kristiansen et al 2017)

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    So I guess finding Z93/Z94 to be a dominant clade in Abashevo will make your hypothesis being negatively verified.
    You feel that Z93/Z94 arose in Abashevo? Don't you feel that was a bit late? The big puzzle for me is where Z93/Z94 was hiding that it did not contribute to the European spread of R1a. CW just seems intuitively wrong. That spread over half of Europe. But I cannot claim to have given this matter the deep thought that you R1a experts have lavished on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    As for the genesis of the entire Corded Ware horizon, clearly associated with the expansion of R1a-M417 (including not only CTS4385>L664 and Z645>Z283 but probably also Z645>Z93), I have once discussed a scenario that I still consider to be the most likely one:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post125370
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post66913
    That scenario is most likely given current evidence, and it looks even more probable when you put ancient R1a-M417 samples on CWC map (note that I've also included some samples that are not ascribed by authors to CWC context (Olsund), or belong to a slightly later period (Gustorzyn)):

    journal.pone.0155083.g001 - kopija.jpg

    Locations where M417(xZ645)=CTS4385+ samples are found are in orange (Esperstedt, Eulau, Bergrheinfeld)

    Locations where Z283 (or Z645 likely to be Z283) samples are found are in yellow (Gyvakarai, Spiginas, Ardu, Kunila, Olsund, Kyndelose, Viby, Gustorzyn)

    Locations where Z93 (or Z645 likely to be Z93) samples are found are in green (Potapovka, Utevka, Bulanovo, Stepnoe - the later two are off the map, so their locations are approximate)

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  4. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    You feel that Z93/Z94 arose in Abashevo? Don't you feel that was a bit late?
    Definitely too late, so I would presume that clade Z93 arose around 4000-3500 BC somewhere in the Middle Dnieper region, most likely as a part of the Dnieper Donets culture. Therefore, I would only consider Abashevo to be a place/culture where clade Z93/Z94 (and especially its subclade Z2124) was able to significantly expand before moving further east and south.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    The big puzzle for me is where Z93/Z94 was hiding that it did not contribute to the European spread of R1a.
    One can equally well ask where CTS4385 and Z283 (including Y2395) were hiding that they did not contribute to the eastward spread of R1a. I would simply assume that by the end of the fourth millennium BC, all major clades descending from M417 have already been associated with different subgroupings/clans within either DD III or a yet unknown culture in the forest-steppe zone, so once they started migrating in different directions (west, north and east), thus contributing to the sudden expansion of the widely spread Corded Ware horizon, this was associated with a separation of those major clades, so this is why we find them today present "specifically" in NW Europe (CTS4385>L664), Scandinavia (Z284), Central-Eastern Europe (Z280 and M458) or Asia (Z93>Z94).


    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    CW just seems intuitively wrong. That spread over half of Europe.
    But you also believe that Yamna was responsible for populating more than half of Europe, yet it doesn't worry your that the supposedly Yamna-derived clade R1a-Z93 did not expand westward.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    But I cannot claim to have given this matter the deep thought that you R1a experts have lavished on it.
    I am not saying you are definitely wrong. I only consider your scenario to be significantly less likely, but this may of course change once new data (for example for Western Yamna) are available.
    Last edited by Michał; 04-12-2017 at 07:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I would rather go with genetics correlations than any linguistic "evidence" unless such evidence is real.
    To me it appears that western Corded Ware was pre proto Germanic and east of Vistula was pre proto Balto Slavic.
    I doubt that because the old bastanae tribes lands where from the vistula to modern Moldova ..........and they spoke proto- germanic ..............they must have been a huge populace because if you can supply philip of macedon 80000 troops pre Alexander the great times ........then they must have had an influence inguistically where they lived.

    The goths where on both sides of the lower Vistula area ...........and they spoke proto-germanic

    IMO , it leaves proto-baltic east of the nogat river ..............eventually this too became proto-germanic as they became old-prussian peoples

    and modern Belrussia and northern Ukraine as proto- baltic-slavic

    question is , what did the ancient Dacians speak before adopting Latin .............they as well had a large area


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    But you also believe that Yamna was responsible for populating more than half of Europe, yet it doesn't worry your that the supposedly Yamna-derived clade R1a-Z93 did not expand westward.
    Doesn't worry me? I said that I am puzzled. It can't be part of the major movements westward or northward. It obviously has to be in a position to move into Sintashta. That's as far as I get before my head hurts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I would rather go with genetics correlations than any linguistic "evidence" unless such evidence is real.
    To me it appears that western Corded Ware was pre proto Germanic and east of Vistula was pre proto Balto Slavic.
    Yes, I would also rather go with genetic evidence. The expansion of Germanic ethnicity in Europe is clearly correlated with the expansion of R1b.
    We see it in England, we see it in East Germany. Expansion of Germanics is linked with massive expansion of R1b and replacement of R1a in East Europe.
    If we do not correlate ethnicities with genes we are back to Kossinnaís times. Anything goes, even R1a-Z93 can be claimed to be Germanic, donít you remember times when German scientists on expedition to India were measuring skulls to determine how Germanic Aryans got to India.
    It is a pseudoscience, donít go this way.


    If you think that R1a-Z93 expanded from the steppe then how and where did they get into contact with Neolithic civilization which influenced their religion and religious vocabulary (the same influence which is clearly evident in Slavic languages, different from PIE and common to Slavs and Indo-Iranians only).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    If you think that R1a-Z93 expanded from the steppe then how and where did they get into contact with Neolithic civilization which influenced their religion and religious vocabulary (the same influence which is clearly evident in Slavic languages, different from PIE and common to Slavs and Indo-Iranians only).
    Are you thinking of the vocabulary borrowed into Proto-Indo-Iranian from an unrecorded non-IE language presumed to be that of the BMAC? That includes some religious vocabulary and terms for irrigation farming and brick building.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substr...lex_.28BMAC.29

    What has this to do with Slavic? Was there some borrowing from Scythian into Proto-Slavic?

    [Added] Yes I see there was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-...ic_and_Iranian
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-13-2017 at 07:57 AM.

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    Donít quote Wikipedia. There was no borrowing from Scythian to Proto-Slavic. It is pseudoscience.
    There was borrowing from Proto-Slavic to Proto-Indo-Iranian. It can be proven by genetics now. Not only genetics of people but also genetics of plants, animals etc. The movement of words was from west to east.

    Slavs share many words with Indo-Iranians which they donít share with Balts.
    Balto-Slavs came from the steppe as R1a-Z645 CWC. But Slavs separated from Balto-Slavs by mixing with Neolithic farmers in the Vistula region. Then they expanded east and influenced the formation of Proto-Indo-Iranians. This explains shared vocabulary and religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    And how do you know this? Have you assembled hundreds of YDNA samples from Europeans alive today, and run coalescent analysis on them using software like BEAST? Have you calculated summary statistics for Ne for the tree of haplotypes present in Europeans alive today at each phylogenetic time in the past? How do you get your conclusions, from eyeballing the tree or from looking at single haplotype branches?

    The future of haploid analysis is in papers like these:
    Attachment 15064
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0096074

    Utilizing vast numbers of lineages from representative datasets with coalescent analyses, not from eyeballing lineages. You need statistics and math and demographic scenarios, and an understanding of the random processes that drive these, before you can make rigorous inferences about descent from haploid genetics (unlike for autosomal genetics). The modelling indicates that among present-day European Y chromosomes there are an unusual number lineage coalescences at the Bronze Age, not before or after. The expansion of various subclades at the expense of others may continue later--or for that matter, before, the bottleneck, but at no lower or higher a rate than is usually found, as opposed to the extreme phenomena of the Bronze Age.



    Completely false, Battini et al did separate simulations for European populations from different regions and found that the crash applied for everyone from Hungarian and Serbian in the East to Spanish and Irish in the West and Tuscan and Greek in the South. Unless the Spanish and Irish, Tuscan and Greek Y chromosomes also descend from Corded Ware, this is a Europe-wide phenomenon.
    Attachment 15065



    This is a mathematical result from coalescent analysis of present-day Y chromosomal diversity, not a result of eyeballing a tree, so there is no need for this.



    False, coalescent analysis shows that lineages were coalescing at a slower rate before and after the Bronze Age, in fact they were coalescing at such slow rates compared to what happened in the Bronze Age that the inferred Ne for the Y chromosome was ~15X larger in the Neolithic and Iron Ages as they were during the Bronze Age, clear from Karmin et al.


    Then why is this phenomenon Y specific and not reflected in the mtDNA? Why does mtDNA also not show an accelerated expanding trend at this time? Why is it also found across Eurasia, inlc. in West Asia and East Asia post neolithic, as opposed to Steppe-influenced regions only?

    Many of the foremost minds in haploid genetics would disagree with you, pls take me at my word.
    Of course, analysis such as BSPs are very useful adjunct, but their bulk character and rather broad time scale ("4-5 KYA" - Battini) cannot be forcibly hammered into one's personal theorem of the likes/ intensity outlined by yourself, imho.

    Let's also see what Poznik wrote ".. in Western Europe, related lineages within R1b-L11 expanded ~4.8–5.9 kya (Supplementary Fig. 14e), most markedly around 4.8 and 5.5 kya. The earlier of these times, 5.5 kya, is associated with the origin of the Bronze Age Yamnaya culture. The Yamnaya have been linked by aDNA evidence to a massive migration from the Eurasian Steppe, which may have replaced much of the previous European population". This statement isn't substantiated by the aDNA or archaeological evidence; at least it' completely off in timescale. So how would you reconcile forecasts with reality ?

    And that's just northern Europe. In southern Europe, many non-R1 (which predominate in southern Europe) lineages are still rather poorly resolved. I am therefore inclined to treat the Europe-wide inferences your refer to as tentative at best, and potentially rather off. Maybe you should spend some time 'eyeballing' some aspects of prehistory, archaeology, phylogeny and aDNA which might directly impinge on the hypotheses you propose.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 04-14-2017 at 12:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I recommend the tree that you used earlier, from Don Ringe and others. Mine is based on theirs. But remember that real life is not as simple as one haplogroup per language.

    Your tree can explain only part of IE lexicon, that which came from the steppe.



    It does not explain the influence of Proto-Slavic CWC from Poland which expanded after steppe CWC mixed with farmers there. It seems necessary for explanations of many similarities between various languages and Slavic. Wave theory explains it best.



    Last edited by bolek; 04-14-2017 at 10:32 AM.

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