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Thread: U152 Distribution in Ireland

  1. #1
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    U152 Distribution in Ireland

    I was having a look at the distribution of U152 in Ireland and with the exception of a few outliers U152 seems to be concentrated in the extreme North and South of Ireland.
    U152 Distribution in Ireland.jpg

    U152 is fairly unusual in Ireland (I think Busby estimated it to be around 2%) I have seen some people say online that U152 in Ireland can to an extent be attributed to Anglo-Normans but aside from the Barrys I don't know if there have been any confirmed U152+ Anglo-Normans in Ireland?

    I'd be interested to know what people on here think might explain this pattern of U152 distribution in Ireland and any opinions on how U152 got there?
    Paternal Y-DNA: U152>L2>BY3508>L135>BY3506 Estimated age of BY3506: 500BC
    Most Distant Known Paternal Ancestor: Patrick Dillon, born around 1790 somewhere in Ireland (possibly County Mayo). Some of his descendants later moved to Manchester, England between the 1820s and 30s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DillonResearcher View Post
    I was having a look at the distribution of U152 in Ireland and with the exception of a few outliers U152 seems to be concentrated in the extreme North and South of Ireland.
    U152 Distribution in Ireland.jpg

    U152 is fairly unusual in Ireland (I think Busby estimated it to be around 2%) I have seen some people say online that U152 in Ireland can to an extent be attributed to Anglo-Normans but aside from the Barrys I don't know if there have been any confirmed U152+ Anglo-Normans in Ireland?

    I'd be interested to know what people on here think might explain this pattern of U152 distribution in Ireland and any opinions on how U152 got there?
    My first thought is the extreme North is going to have some Scottish and English border folks. The area South of the Antoine Wall and around and to to North of Hadrian's Wall appears to have above average U152 percentages in present day populations. I've wondered if Roman Auxilliaries from the Low Countries and Gaul might in part explain this. Regardless, if there is indeed a higher than normal U152 representation in Lowland Scotland and Northern England, it may help explain U152 in the North of Ireland.

    As to the extreme south, this map comes to mind.
    and this one


    But honestly these are just "off the top of my head" thoughts and may be insignificant contributions.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-06-2017 at 09:05 PM.
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    Thanks for those thoughts and the maps. I didn't know that the area between Hadrian's Wall and the Antonine Wall has a high level of U152 so that's certainly worth bearing in mind for the North Irish cluster.

    I also just came across this map which is shows the extent of Norman control in 1300 which is useful to see alongside the ones that you posted.
    Ireland_1300.png

    I read online that David Faux believed that U152 in Ireland came in through Vikings, Normans or other English invaders (as opposed to being found in "native" Irish) but I'd imagine that that view may well not be valid now with all the new people that have tested since then.
    Paternal Y-DNA: U152>L2>BY3508>L135>BY3506 Estimated age of BY3506: 500BC
    Most Distant Known Paternal Ancestor: Patrick Dillon, born around 1790 somewhere in Ireland (possibly County Mayo). Some of his descendants later moved to Manchester, England between the 1820s and 30s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DillonResearcher View Post
    I read online that David Faux believed that U152 in Ireland came in through Vikings, Normans or other English invaders (as opposed to being found in "native" Irish) but I'd imagine that that view may well not be valid now with all the new people that have tested since then.
    It wasn't valid then either.

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    The largest subgroup in the Barry YDNA project is U152>Z49>S8183 with a number of downstream SNPs unique to the family. While usually labeled Anglo-Norman, the Barry family probably originated in Flanders, where U152 has a fairly sizeable representation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DillonResearcher View Post
    ...I read online that David Faux believed that U152 in Ireland came in through Vikings, Normans or other English invaders (as opposed to being found in "native" Irish) but I'd imagine that that view may well not be valid now with all the new people that have tested since then.
    Not to pile on Dr Faux, as he did the best with what he had to work with almost 10 years ago, but I believe one of his ideas was that the Angles were high in U152 and that the reason that U152 is low in Denmark now is because most of it left with the Angles; that is; very little stayed behind in the homeland.

    I think the 2016 Danish dna study makes this theory less likely as the present day British are genetically closer to Danes than either Swedes or Norwegians.

    Granted autosomal and y-dna aren't the same thing, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to expect some correlation between the two. e.g. U106 is common today in Denmark and England, so why wouldn't U152 be the same? This would apply to Angles, Jutes and Danish Vikings.

    However Normans are another matter. There was ~150 years between the establishment of the Duchy and the Norman invasion of 1066. In that period the Gallo-Roman population of Normandy (which probably vastly outnumbered the Normans) would have mixed with the Normans and no doubt many of the locals would have been U152, and part of the group that settled in the Isles.

    In the Busby Study of 2011,
    North France (Nord-Pas-de-Calais): 17.6% was U152
    Northwest France(Brittany?): 6.1% U152
    North Central France: 14.3% U152

    While not specifically identified, Normandy was probably in the 10-13% range for U152.

    As jbarry6899 mentioned, some of the Norman invaders were actually from Flanders. In the Brabant study U152 was 16.25% of Flanders.

    So it's reasonable to expect 1 in 8, to 1 in 10 "Normans" in the Isles to be U152.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-07-2017 at 04:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DillonResearcher View Post
    Thanks for those thoughts and the maps. I didn't know that the area between Hadrian's Wall and the Antonine Wall has a high level of U152 so that's certainly worth bearing in mind for the North Irish cluster.
    Just came across the map of Roman Sculpture finds in Britain. You can see the clear outline of the two walls indicating the presence of Roman forces (mostly from Belgica and Gaul) compared to the rest of England.

    As these were sparsely populated areas, unlike southern England, I believe the opportunity for a foreign component to make a lasting genetic impact was greater.

    roman sculptures-britain.jpg

    Present day U152 percentages for the tribal areas of the Batavian, Tungri, Menapii, Morini (all from Belgica) and Ligones (from Gaul) Roman Auxiliaries are all in mid teens to low twenties.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    As these were sparsely populated areas, unlike southern England, I believe the opportunity for a foreign component to make a lasting genetic impact was greater.
    That sounds like quite a convincing argument and it certainly don't take long to travel across the sea between the west coast of Scotland/England and Ireland.

    I was also just having a look at the U152 maps you put together here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...apped-for-U152 which are very interesting to see, particularly with how they correlate quite well to an extent to a map further down the thread showing Roman influence in Britain. It would certainly be interesting if we got some ancient DNA from Roman cemeteries in the UK! Edit: Then again, having looked into the later pages of that thread it doesn't seem quite so clear cut.
    Last edited by DillonResearcher; 04-09-2017 at 10:29 AM.
    Paternal Y-DNA: U152>L2>BY3508>L135>BY3506 Estimated age of BY3506: 500BC
    Most Distant Known Paternal Ancestor: Patrick Dillon, born around 1790 somewhere in Ireland (possibly County Mayo). Some of his descendants later moved to Manchester, England between the 1820s and 30s.

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    I did try to do some analysis of the U152+ surnames in Ireland of testers who know to at least county level where their ancestor came from and it is of course rather tricky with multiple origins for most names (I mainly used MacLysaght's "Irish Families Book"). Only 19 people gave sufficient location information for their ancestor and so it is a very small sample but the only three people (I counted the Barry cluster as just one) with Norman surnames were all in Southern Ireland with no Norman names appearing in Northern Ireland. As I said, it's a very small sample but interesting nevertheless.
    Paternal Y-DNA: U152>L2>BY3508>L135>BY3506 Estimated age of BY3506: 500BC
    Most Distant Known Paternal Ancestor: Patrick Dillon, born around 1790 somewhere in Ireland (possibly County Mayo). Some of his descendants later moved to Manchester, England between the 1820s and 30s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    My first thought is the extreme North is going to have some Scottish and English border folks. The area South of the Antoine Wall and around and to to North of Hadrian's Wall appears to have above average U152 percentages in present day populations. I've wondered if Roman Auxilliaries from the Low Countries and Gaul might in part explain this. Regardless, if there is indeed a higher than normal U152 representation in Lowland Scotland and Northern England, it may help explain U152 in the North of Ireland.

    As to the extreme south, this map comes to mind.
    and this one


    But honestly these are just "off the top of my head" thoughts and may be insignificant contributions.
    That area of Scotland had a relatively strong and early Norman (a blanket term that didn't always mean Normandy) plantation of knights etc in the 12th/13th centuries as well as significant no of Angles before that. The sequence of Britons- Angles-Normans in Scottish terms is unique to the area between the walls but similar to parts of England.

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