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Thread: German DNA Project by Living DNA

  1. #21
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    Do you know any people with ancestry from Rügen?:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rügen

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post173006

    There are already some papers which hint at genetic distinctiveness of people from that island:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14717531

    Apparently, the population of Rügen is in terms of genetics clearly separated from the populations of Denmark, Sweden and of Northern Germany (samples from Hamburg):

    Abstract

    24 haemogenetic markers (5 erythrocyte antigens, 7 polymorphisms of serum proteins, 12 polymorphisms of red cell enzymes) had been studied in 171 individuals from the island of Rügen (Germany, Baltic Sea). The cluster analysis separates clearly the Rügen sample just as the islands of Hiddensee and Ummanz from the neighbouring populations. The comparison of the data with neighboured larger populations as for instance Denmark, Hamburg or Sweden clearly results in an exceptional position of the island of Rügen. The possible reasons are discussed. (...)
    http://www.wizlaw.de/assets/images/Rujana-Karte2.jpg

    Last edited by Tomenable; 04-14-2017 at 12:33 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I have just been admitted to this Project (apparently as one of the first 100 participants):

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post226545

    If you have a kit and are eligible to join the Project, autosomal transfer is free of charge:

    https://www.livingdna.com/de/deutsch...schungsprojekt
    Aren't you of Polish ethnicity, though?

    If that is the case, please let the people at Living DNA be aware of it. I know eastern Germans from the former territories had a lot of assimilated Balto-Slavic ancestry from ancient times, but they are not the same as the ethnic Poles, based on the results I have seen.

    I think people should only volunteer if they are of German ethnicity, to make sure it won't skew the results of some regions that were historically divided in an ethnic and linguistic sense.

    I also don't believe people of Jewish ancestry should volunteer, since their genetic profiles seem to be completely unrelated to those of ethnic Germans, despite generations of coexistence. It would only make the results more confusing and less accurate.

    I don't want to start a fight with you, or anyone else, but I was hoping this project would be something useful for the people with ethnic German heritage that want to know more about the regional breakdown.

    I have some ethnic Polish ancestry, and I wouldn't like it to be mistaken for east German ancestry in a future Living DNA update.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatAust21 View Post
    I also don't believe people of Jewish ancestry should volunteer, since their genetic profiles seem to be completely unrelated to those of ethnic Germans, despite generations of coexistence. It would only make the results more confusing and less accurate.

    I don't want to start a fight with you, or anyone else, but I was hoping this project would be something useful for the people with ethnic German heritage that want to know more about the regional breakdown.
    Thing is, is Jews should be there. If for no other reason than to maintain the difference for there are people who try to maintain that their Germanic surnames are "Jewish" when in reality they're not. Just old Germans. That's why LivingDNA should have had a Jewish cluster or a category for religion because how many Jews are going to submit samples & just what, as there doesn't appear to be a given cluster for them, is LivingDNA going to do with those samples. I don't, after all, see a if you're Jewish we don't want your DNA commentary on their advertisement.

    About the rest, but as with ethnic French, what is an ethnic German? There's been so much movement in the country, particularly along the borders, that finding a legitimate ethnic person would probably be a bit harder than you'd think. It's why I mentioned I am asking two Bavarians, one right near the Czech border and one more in the center of the state.



    Regarding regional breakdown, well I've said it countless times. People move. Some of that area dubbed (southern) Germany was held by Austrians. But I'd really like to know what era they're using to map out their states. I was, after all, looking at their map wondering exactly where ancestry from Baden-Württemberg and which is located central to what LivingDNA calls the Upper Rhine/Black Forest & Württemberg would be placed. I am willing to bet some will get predominant Upper Rhine & others predominant Württemberg. Even if related.
    Last edited by Calas; 04-15-2017 at 01:47 AM.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calas View Post
    Thing is, is Jews should be there. If for no other reason than to maintain the difference for there are people who try to maintain that their Germanic surnames are "Jewish" when in reality they're not. Just old Germans. That's why LivingDNA should have had a Jewish cluster or a category for religion because how many Jews are going to submit samples & just what, as there doesn't appear to be a given cluster for them, is LivingDNA going to do with those samples. I don't, after all, see a if you're Jewish we don't want your DNA commentary on their advertisement.
    Jews should have their own category in my opinion, as they have in other companies, such as 23andme and Ancestry.

    However, Living DNA should create a separate project for them. To test Jews for a project about the genetic profile of Germans would make no sense, since they are clearly distinct in a genetic way.

    It would be the same as having samples of South Asian origin used for their breakdown of the British regions. It wouldn't be helpful for the customers that are trying to learn about their ancestry, making the test simply useless.


    About the rest, but as with ethnic French, what is an ethnic German? There's been so much movement in the country, particularly along the borders, that finding a legitimate ethnic person would probably be a bit harder than you'd think. It's why I mentioned I am asking two Bavarians, one right near the Czech border and one more in the center of the state.
    It should be possible to map out the genetic profile of many different regions of Germany, in the same way it was possible for the British Isles. Based on the GEDmatch and 23andme results of Germans I have seen, people from the same regions tend to have similar results among themselves, and they become slightly different as you get further away.

    People only became extremely mobile in rather recent times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatAust21 View Post
    Jews should have their own category in my opinion, as they have in other companies, such as 23andme and Ancestry.
    One should then write to LivingDNA and tell them to include a little notice that says Jews should not submit their samples.

    But you are missing the point of my commentary. If they don't have Jews to reference in this test then how can they separate people who submit their samples?

    Quote Originally Posted by MatAust21 View Post
    It would be the same as having samples of South Asian origin used for their breakdown of the British regions. It wouldn't be helpful for the customers that are trying to learn about their ancestry, making the test simply useless.
    It is actually useful if you know about population movements. I mean S. Asians have been in England for a while. Sinti/Roma were in the UK from the 1600s for example. Same with Italians, Greeks, Slavs, etc. Which is why, in a way, I find LivingDNA limited. To assume that your ancestors were actually trees & rocks incapable of moving is not the best of ideas.




    Quote Originally Posted by MatAust21 View Post
    It should be possible to map out the genetic profile of many different regions of Germany, in the same way it was possible for the British Isles. Based on the GEDmatch and 23andme results of Germans I have seen, people from the same regions tend to have similar results among themselves, and they become slightly different as you get further away.

    People only became extremely mobile in rather recent times.
    How much do you know about German history?

    But regarding the recent movement idea I know a Bavarian whose 17th-century ancestor transversed the Carpathian Mountains to get from his place to birth to where he married & died. About 358 miles give or take a few.

    But the thing is, is people have always been mobile. Sometimes in trickles, sometimes in huge masses. One can't, after all, ignore the political, war, etc., that at times forced thousands of people to relocate throughout history or they'd run the risk of losing their head. Huguenots for example. Really only the extremely poor have widely stayed put. But wombatofthenorth said elsewhere that 50,000 Scots were in Poland during the 1600s, people versed in Scandinavian history [myself, evon] wouldn't bat an eye in telling you of the Scots & British in the region during the 1600s. The two-odd-centuries of mercantile settlement and resettlement due to the Russian fur trade, the Germanic Hanseatic League, etc., etc., etc., etc.
    Last edited by Calas; 04-15-2017 at 02:34 AM.

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  11. #26
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    I have read that after the 30 Years War and the Peace of Westphalia, areas north/east of the Rhine that were depopulated were resettled by Catholic Walloons on the provision that they didn't agitate against the Lutherans already in the area. Meanwhile, my ashkenazi ancestors seem to have been in Germany since at least the 1500s. So who's a real German?
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calas View Post
    One should then write to LivingDNA and tell them to include a little notice that says Jews should not submit their samples.
    I can agree with that.

    It is actually useful if you know about population movements. I mean S. Asians have been in England for a while. Sinti/Roma were in the UK from the 1600s for example. Same with Italians, Greeks, Slavs, etc. Which is why, in a way, I find LivingDNA limited. To assume that your ancestors were actually trees & rocks incapable of moving is not the best of ideas.
    Their test should be able to categorize these populations properly, if there is a considerable amount of such ancestry, since they would not fit the average British genetic profile. You should not take their estimated time frame as a dogma.


    How much do you know about German history?
    No need to lose your calm, and start implying you are superior to others.

    But regarding the recent movement idea I know a Bavarian whose 17th-century ancestor transversed the Carpathian Mountains to get from his place to birth to where he married & died. About 358 miles give or take a few.
    If it was in fact one single ancestor that moved, his DNA would have eventually been assimilated into the majoritarian genetic profile of the region. Due to how genetic inheritance works, it is possible that his descendant that you know does not even share any DNA with this ancestor.

    About half of my ancestry is German, and I have many family tree traced back to the 1500's. Most of my ancestors remained around the towns they were born.

    But the thing is, is people have always been mobile. Sometimes in trickles, sometimes in huge masses. One can't, after all, ignore the political, war, etc., that at times forced thousands of people to relocate throughout history or they'd run the risk of losing their head. Huguenots for example. Really only the extremely poor have widely stayed put. But wombatofthenorth said elsewhere that 50,000 Scots were in Poland during the 1600s, people versed in Scandinavian history [myself, evon] wouldn't bat an eye in telling you of the Scots & British in the region during the 1600s. The two-odd-centuries of mercantile settlement and resettlement due to the Russian fur trade, the Germanic Hanseatic League, etc., etc., etc., etc.
    I was the one who posted that about the Scots in Poland in a different thread, not wombatofthenorth.

    Of course I am aware that peoples move, but when they do so in large numbers, and integrate, they form a new average genetic profile for the places they live in, which is what these tests try to isolate.

    a small number of occasional migrants won't leave much of an impact.

    I don't really see what point you are trying to make here. Are you saying Living DNA's test is a fraud because no test should be able to breakdown the genetic profile of the British regions, or any other regions out there, since they are too similar?

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    I have read that after the 30 Years War and the Peace of Westphalia, areas north/east of the Rhine that were depopulated were resettled by Catholic Walloons on the provision that they didn't agitate against the Lutherans already in the area. Meanwhile, my ashkenazi ancestors seem to have been in Germany since at least the 1500s. So who's a real German?
    Now we are just talking about politics, and have completely abandoned the topic of genetics.

    If a small community of Europeans, for instance, moved to Japan 500 years ago, and maintained themselves isolated to the present day, one of their descendants should not be representative for the genetic profile of Japan as a whole.

    They should only be representative of this hypothetical European community in Japan.

    Of course, when it comes to identity, they could feel Japanese, since they would have contributed to the history of the place, but we are talking about genetics.

    That is what I am talking about when I say Jewish people shouldn't take part in a project to collect German samples, unless they are specifically looking for Jews from Germany. Other than that, Jewish DNA is not interchangeable with the DNA of other ethnic groups traditionally found in Germany.

    We are entering a topic of citizenship, rather than genetic and ethnic origins.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatAust21 View Post
    Aren't you of Polish ethnicity, though?
    If these people are including Provinz Posen, West Prussia, East Prussia and Silesia in their Project then I'm sure that they want Poles too, because ethnic Poles are: 1) more native in these areas than Germans, and: 2) were actually the majority of inhabitants in most of that territory:

    http://i.imgur.com/oonMdGF.png

    BTW, I do have people with German surnames among my ancestors, and most of my ancestors were bilingual in the early 1900s (they spoke both Polish and German fluently).

    So how do you count who is "German" and who is not? Under the Nazis, one drop of German blood made you German, and even one drop of Jewish blood made you Jewish:



    Which is why - I guess - they are not including Jews in their Project.

    Sorry but Ashkenazi genetics is clearly distinct from Native Central European genetics.

    You can say "but Jews is just a religious group", but we know it isn't.

    Jews used to stick to themselves and married only other Jews throughout the centuries.

    Meanwhile, Germans mixed with Slavic groups and with Old Prussians.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 04-15-2017 at 09:16 AM.

  16. #30
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    By the way:

    In the British Isles Project, did they include only Anglo-Saxons, and refused to include Celtic groups? Or were ethnic Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Cornish etc. people also welcomed? I'm just curious about it. If they included only Anglo-Saxons in the POBI study, then I will withdraw my participation from this study.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 04-15-2017 at 09:19 AM.

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