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Thread: Big Y/Big Tree/YFull Stevens/Stephens Results

  1. #1
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    Cool Big Y/Big Tree/YFull Stevens/Stephens Results

    Ambitious thread title, since thus far there are only two of us with Big Y results.

    Anyway, my second closest STR match (109/111) and I are now on YFull's new tree, Version 5.03, both of us with the terminal SNP FGC36974.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

    This match, YFull kit YF08619, is second only to my known second cousin (we share the same y-dna line great grandparents), who matches me 111/111. That second cousin has not done the Big Y yet.

    YFull gives YF08619 and me a tmrca of 550 years as a midpoint in a range of 1050-250 years, but notice that 250 years is the low end of that range. I think 250-300 years is about right (in other words, our common ancestor was born about 1700-1750). 550 years is too long ago, since that would have us sharing a most recent common ancestor at the very outer limit of the adoption of fixed surnames, especially in Wales, where it is likely our line originated. The paper trail evidence indicates that 250-300 years is probably the best estimate. So, I would not say YFull is wrong, just that the lower end of their tmrca estimate is best.

    We're waiting on the Big Y results of another Stevens relative who is a 108/111 match for me. His results might enable YFull to refine that tmrca estimate further.

    A 106/111 match for me, but with a different surname (Samuel), is also on YFull's new tree: kit YF08776. He is FGC36974- and is lodged one step back up the tree, at BY160. YFull gives him and me a tmrca estimate of 1550-550 years. Again, I think the lower end of that range is probably right, but I don't have any paper trail evidence to back that up.
    Last edited by rms2; 04-09-2017 at 03:41 PM. Reason: Punctuation error
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  3. #2
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    I don't know if you've been following my own similar efforts to date my line using various methods
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post220458

    But like you I'm finding yfull's SNP dating of TMRCA to be older than the STR method. There is an overlap of the two methods.

    In my case the FGC SNP tests are giving the oldest dates, BigY SNP dating in the middle and standard STR dating giving youngest dates.

    In post 24 of link above I used McDonald's STR method and I think it may be accurate for me.

    I would be curious to see what you get using McDonald's 94 marker method. Simply count how many SNPs have different values and multiply by 111 for the median value, multiple by 97 for the low range, and 125 for the high range.

    For example. If you have a 2 SNP difference with your Stevens cousin on these 94 markers it would be 222 ybp (1728 AD), with a range of 196 to 250 years (1700-1754 AD)

    The 94 markers
     

    393
    390
    19
    391


    426
    388
    439
    389i
    392

    458


    455
    454
    447
    437
    448
    449




    460
    GataH4


    456
    607
    576
    570


    442
    438
    531
    578


    590
    537
    641
    472
    406s1
    511
    425


    557
    594
    436
    490
    534
    450
    444
    481
    520
    446
    617
    568
    487
    572
    640
    492
    565
    710
    485
    632
    495
    540
    714
    716
    717
    505
    556
    549
    589
    522
    494
    533
    636
    575
    638
    462
    452
    445
    A10
    463
    441
    1B07
    525
    712
    593
    650
    532
    715
    504
    513
    561
    552
    726
    635
    587
    643
    497
    510
    434
    461
    435
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-09-2017 at 06:11 PM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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  5. #3
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    You mean genetic distance on those markers, right?
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I don't know if you've been following my own similar efforts to date my line using various methods
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post220458

    But like you I'm finding yfull's SNP dating of TMRCA to be older than the STR method. There is an overlap of the two methods.

    In my case the FGC SNP tests are giving the oldest dates, BigY SNP dating in the middle and standard STR dating giving youngest dates.

    In post 24 of link above I used McDonald's STR method and I think it may be accurate for me.

    I would be curious to see what you get using McDonald's 94 marker method. Simply count how many SNPs have different values and multiply by 111 for the median value, multiple by 97 for the low range, and 125 for the high range.

    For example. If you have a 2 SNP difference with your Stevens cousin on these 94 markers it would be 222 ybp (1728 AD), with a range of 196 to 250 years (1700-1754 AD)

    The 94 markers
     

    393
    390
    19
    391


    426
    388
    439
    389i
    392

    458


    455
    454
    447
    437
    448
    449




    460
    GataH4


    456
    607
    576
    570


    442
    438
    531
    578


    590
    537
    641
    472
    406s1
    511
    425


    557
    594
    436
    490
    534
    450
    444
    481
    520
    446
    617
    568
    487
    572
    640
    492
    565
    710
    485
    632
    495
    540
    714
    716
    717
    505
    556
    549
    589
    522
    494
    533
    636
    575
    638
    462
    452
    445
    A10
    463
    441
    1B07
    525
    712
    593
    650
    532
    715
    504
    513
    561
    552
    726
    635
    587
    643
    497
    510
    434
    461
    435
    On those markers my 109/111 Stevens match (YF08619) and I have just one unit of genetic distance, at 452. That gives us a median tmrca of 111 years, or 1839. The range from high to low is 1825-1853.

    That's too recent, IMHO, given the paper trail info. I think about 1700-1750 is right.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    You mean genetic distance on those markers, right?
    I can't find where McDonald specifies whether he means gd or just the number of STRs with different values.

    EDIT: I think he uses the infinite alleles model (assumes any variance in*an*STR is a single mutation whether 1 or more steps is treated as one event). He says "Generally speaking, the infinite alleles will be more accurate for younger clades"
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-10-2017 at 02:56 AM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I can't find where McDonald specifies whether he means gd or just the number of STRs with different values.

    EDIT: I think he uses the infinite alleles model (assumes any variance in*an*STR is a single mutation whether 1 or more steps is treated as one event). He says "Generally speaking, the infinite alleles will be more accurate for younger clades"
    The result is the same either way for me and my Stevens cousin, YF08619. We have just one unit of genetic distance at any of those 94 markers, in this case, at 452, where he has 30 and I have 31.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  12. #7
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    There is a possibility that McDonald's STR method isn't too far off, at least at the 1825 mark. My Stevens cousin (YF08619) and I have discussed the possibility that our current mdkas were half brothers, with the same father (obviously). My mdka was born in 1804 and YF08619's mdka was born in 1818, so it's possible that his mdka was the product of a second marriage after our mutual Stevens ancestor's first wife died. The tradition in my family is that my third great grandfather and his two brothers (born 1807 and 1809) were orphaned and bound out to learn trades. They preserved and passed along the name of their mother but not that of their father, except for the surname. If their father had shipped them off as apprentices and then remarried, it would stand to reason that they might not have thought of him too fondly or have been too concerned with telling their own offspring about grandpa.

    My third great grandfather's name was Auguston, also spelled Augustine. That name occurs repeatedly in my Stevens cousin's family, as well. Even one of the girls was named Augustina.

    One of our Fayette County, PA, suspects is Augustine Stevens, born about 1776. He might be our mutual ancestor. We just cannot prove it yet. Augustine had a brother named Benjamin Stevens (among other brothers). We already have two 111-marker Stevens matches with solid paper trails to Benjamin.
    Last edited by rms2; 04-10-2017 at 03:36 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  14. #8
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    Or it could be that you were over due for a mutation/getting one the next generation. Who knows? It's not gonna be gnat's ass accurate...scientific term.

    Thanks for checking.

    PS realized I called you "Steve" in another thread...sorry about that.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Ambitious thread title, since thus far there are only two of us with Big Y results.

    Anyway, my second closest STR match (109/111) and I are now on YFull's new tree, Version 5.03, both of us with the terminal SNP FGC36974.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

    This match, YFull kit YF08619, is second only to my known second cousin (we share the same y-dna line great grandparents), who matches me 111/111. That second cousin has not done the Big Y yet.

    YFull gives YF08619 and me a tmrca of 550 years as a midpoint in a range of 1050-250 years, but notice that 250 years is the low end of that range. I think 250-300 years is about right (in other words, our common ancestor was born about 1700-1750). 550 years is too long ago, since that would have us sharing a most recent common ancestor at the very outer limit of the adoption of fixed surnames, especially in Wales, where it is likely our line originated. The paper trail evidence indicates that 250-300 years is probably the best estimate. So, I would not say YFull is wrong, just that the lower end of their tmrca estimate is best.

    We're waiting on the Big Y results of another Stevens relative who is a 108/111 match for me. His results might enable YFull to refine that tmrca estimate further.

    A 106/111 match for me, but with a different surname (Samuel), is also on YFull's new tree: kit YF08776. He is FGC36974- and is lodged one step back up the tree, at BY160. YFull gives him and me a tmrca estimate of 1550-550 years. Again, I think the lower end of that range is probably right, but I don't have any paper trail evidence to back that up.
    Hi,
    in my case YFull underestimates the MRCA. Of course YFull is not to blame because I think some SNPs appear to be missing maybe for no-calls, poor quality, few reads etc. Probably from 1500 onwards, only FGC has the right SNP resolution.

    SNP_STR_R-Y53833.jpg
    Last edited by asquecco; 04-10-2017 at 09:24 PM.

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  18. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Or it could be that you were over due for a mutation/getting one the next generation. Who knows? It's not gonna be gnat's ass accurate...scientific term.

    Thanks for checking.

    PS realized I called you "Steve" in another thread...sorry about that.
    That's alright. When I was a kid I was called Stevie, and at dna forums I was Stevo. I don't mind. My mom still calls my dad Steve, since that was how she was introduced to him. He was in the Navy, and if your name was Stevens, you were "Steve", if McDonald "Mac", etc.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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