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Thread: Correlations of various R1a and I subclades that might link with R1b subclades?

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    Correlations of various R1a and I subclades that might link with R1b subclades?

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    ... Also ignoring the concept of NW Indo-European which is what Corded Ware was likely speaking. Interesting that Centum Germanic R1a is predominantly Z284+ which is downstream of Z283+ while Indo-Iranian R1a is not downstream of Z283+.

    The Z93+ and Z283+ split is likely older than that chain of movements. And Abashevo's Indo-Iranian identity is often seen as an intrusive element from the Poltavaka culture.
    Newtboard brought this up and since we have threads for possible correlations of autosomal and mt DNA it would make sense to look for Y DNA haplgroup correlations for R1b subclades.

    Are there any? There must be some. I noticed that R1a-Z284 appears in Germanic groups. Of course, R1b-U106 has a very strong correlation with Germanic speaking areas. Is this a strong link between U106 or Z284 or Z284 much broader or only significant in elements of Germanic speakers?

    What age is Z284 estimated as?

    Since this is in the R1b sections, let's look only at R1a [and I] subclades that might correlate with parts of R1b.

    EDIT: on 6/27/2013: I'm expanding this to include I subclades, particularly subclades of I1 as they are all interwined in Northern Europe.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 06-27-2013 at 03:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Are there any? There must be some. I noticed that R1a-Z284 appears in Germanic groups. Of course, R1b-U106 has a very strong correlation with Germanic speaking areas. Is this a strong link between U106 or Z284 or Z284 much broader or only significant in elements of Germanic speakers?
    Let me cite what I wrote on this subject on another forum:

    "The presence of R1a-Z284 among the Proto-Germans is actually one of a few questions on which I used to disagree with JeanM, although she may have changed her view in the meantime. Based on the present distribution of Z284 in Europe, I would assume that this subclade of R1a was not present in any significant proportion among the Proto-Germans living in Denmark and Northern Germany (Jastorf culture), since if this was the case, we would see it spread with all known early migrations of different Germanic tribes, including not only the numerous Eastern Germanic tribes, but also Cimbri, Teutoni, different groups of Suebi (like Marcomani and Quadi), Longobards and Franks. I would also add the Anglo-Saxons to this list, although in their case the image may be significantly blurred by the more recent influx of the Scandinavian Vikings into Britain. Since many of those tribes are frequently believed to have originated in Scandinavia, including Denmark (Cimbri, Teutones, Vandals, Angles), Bornholm (Burgundians), Sweden (Longobards, Varini, Goths, Gepides) or even Southern Norway (Rugii), it seems that either the Scandinavian origin proposed for all those tribes is a myth or, alternatively, there was no R1a-Z284 in Southern Scandinavia at that time. It is of course possible that at least some of the above-mentioned tribes did not originate in Scandinavia, although it seems rather unlikely that none of them was born in Scandinavia (especially when including Denmark). Therefore, I would rather accept the view that R1a-Z284 was showing only peripheral location in Scandinavia through the entire period from the Bronze Age until the Early Middle Ages. When we take a look at the distribution of Z284 in Scandinavia, we will notice that it indeed shows the highest frequency in Central and North-Western Norway (and this is actually the only place in Scandinavia where R1a is the most frequent haplogroup), while its presence in South-Eastern Sweden and Denmark is much lower. Thus, I would assume that R1a-Z284 did not spread into other parts of Scandinavia (and to the rest of Europe) before the expansion of the Norse Vikings started in the second half of the first millennium AD. This is of course more or less consistent with the current distribution of R1a-Z284 in Iceland, Britain and along the coast of North-Western Europe.

    All this leads us to another interesting question that is related to the very early history of R1a-Z284 in Scandinavia. Most people would agree that R1a-Z284 was likely brought to Scandinavia with the Battle Axe people (a subgroup of Corded Ware), although we still lack any aDNA data that would definitely confirm it. If the hypothesis suggesting a relatively late spread of R1a-Z284 with the Norse Vikings is true, it would mean that following the arrival of the R1a-Z284 people to Scandinavia they were shortly thereafter pushed up to the northern parts of Sweden and Norway, which was most likely associated with the arrival of the R1b (Bell Beaker) people around 2500-2000 BC."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    What age is Z284 estimated as?
    Most estimations I've seen place the initial expansion of R1a-Z284 at about 4500 ybp. The two major sub-branches of Z284 are defined by L448 and Z287/Z288, respectively. The L448 sub-branch is probably about 2500 years old, while Z287/Z288 seems to be slightly older (closer to 3000 years). There is also a relatively small but still quite significant subgroup of Z284 members who are negative for both L448 and Z287, with some of them likely belonging to another (third) sub-branch of Z284 that is not defined by its own SNP marker yet (although it probably includes the newly discovered clade CTS4205).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Let me cite what I wrote on this subject on another forum:

    "The presence of R1a-Z284 among the Proto-Germans is actually one of a few questions on which I used to disagree with JeanM, although she may have changed her view in the meantime. Based on the present distribution of Z284 in Europe, I would assume that this subclade of R1a was not present in any significant proportion among the Proto-Germans living in Denmark and Northern Germany (Jastorf culture), since if this was the case, we would see it spread with all known early migrations of different Germanic tribes, including not only the numerous Eastern Germanic tribes, but also Cimbri, Teutoni, different groups of Suebi (like Marcomani and Quadi), Longobards and Franks. I would also add the Anglo-Saxons to this list, although in their case the image may be significantly blurred by the more recent influx of the Scandinavian Vikings into Britain. Since many of those tribes are frequently believed to have originated in Scandinavia, including Denmark (Cimbri, Teutones, Vandals, Angles), Bornholm (Burgundians), Sweden (Longobards, Varini, Goths, Gepides) or even Southern Norway (Rugii), it seems that either the Scandinavian origin proposed for all those tribes is a myth or, alternatively, there was no R1a-Z284 in Southern Scandinavia at that time. It is of course possible that at least some of the above-mentioned tribes did not originate in Scandinavia, although it seems rather unlikely that none of them was born in Scandinavia (especially when including Denmark). Therefore, I would rather accept the view that R1a-Z284 was showing only peripheral location in Scandinavia through the entire period from the Bronze Age until the Early Middle Ages. When we take a look at the distribution of Z284 in Scandinavia, we will notice that it indeed shows the highest frequency in Central and North-Western Norway (and this is actually the only place in Scandinavia where R1a is the most frequent haplogroup), while its presence in South-Eastern Sweden and Denmark is much lower. Thus, I would assume that R1a-Z284 did not spread into other parts of Scandinavia (and to the rest of Europe) before the expansion of the Norse Vikings started in the second half of the first millennium AD. This is of course more or less consistent with the current distribution of R1a-Z284 in Iceland, Britain and along the coast of North-Western Europe.

    All this leads us to another interesting question that is related to the very early history of R1a-Z284 in Scandinavia. Most people would agree that R1a-Z284 was likely brought to Scandinavia with the Battle Axe people (a subgroup of Corded Ware), although we still lack any aDNA data that would definitely confirm it. If the hypothesis suggesting a relatively late spread of R1a-Z284 with the Norse Vikings is true, it would mean that following the arrival of the R1a-Z284 people to Scandinavia they were shortly thereafter pushed up to the northern parts of Sweden and Norway, which was most likely associated with the arrival of the R1b (Bell Beaker) people around 2500-2000 BC."


    Most estimations I've seen place the initial expansion of R1a-Z284 at about 4500 ybp. The two major sub-branches of Z284 are defined by L448 and Z287/Z288, respectively. The L448 sub-branch is probably about 2500 years old, while Z287/Z288 seems to be slightly older (closer to 3000 years). There is also a relatively small but still quite significant subgroup of Z284 members who are negative for both L448 and Z287, with some of them likely belonging to another (third) sub-branch of Z284 that is not defined by its own SNP marker yet (although it probably includes the newly discovered clade CTS4205).
    I pretty well agree with your analysis on R1a in north Germanic areas. It seems to have been very minor in most of the Germanic expansions before the Viking era. I say minor but not absent. I think the recent Tyrol study found some R1a associated with the Germanic speakers if I remember correctly. My general impression is that despite being noted in Corded Ware its impact seems to have been limited outside eastern Europe. I think the most obvious reason for this seems to be R1b/beaker which arrived in Germany by 2600BC about the same time as R1a/corded ware is attested. The latter may have arrived a century or two earlier than R1b in the area but that is not a long time in the grand scheme of things and they didnt have very long unchallenged.
    Last edited by alan; 06-16-2013 at 11:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Newtboard brought this up and since we have threads for possible correlations of autosomal and mt DNA it would make sense to look for Y DNA haplgroup correlations for R1b subclades.

    Are there any? There must be some. I noticed that R1a-Z284 appears in Germanic groups. Of course, R1b-U106 has a very strong correlation with Germanic speaking areas. Is this a strong link between U106 or Z284 or Z284 much broader or only significant in elements of Germanic speakers?

    What age is Z284 estimated as?

    Since this is in the R1b sections, let's look only at R1a subclades that might correlate with parts of R1b.
    Yes, but a negative correlation!

    Mike the question should really be expanded to include (as far as Northern Europe is concerned) I1 (M253)... and for that matter I1-CTS6364, I1-L22, I1-Z58 etc. Then we could begin to explore what haplogroups arrived with what cultures, i.e. the Single Grave culture (which moved into Scandinavia via Dennmark), and the Battle-Axe Culture, (which moved into Scandinavia via the Baltic).

    Michal's theory on R1a-Z284 is quite plausible and is an excellent way of explaining the dearth of R1a-Z284 on the mainland of Europe.

    However R1a-Z284's scarcity can be more easily explained away by having the Germanic tribes expand out of the North Germanic plain with Jastorf and therefore any origins in Scandinavia can be left to myth!



    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I pretty well agree with your analysis on R1a in north Germanic areas. It seems to have been very minor in most of the Germanic expansions before the Viking era.
    I wouldn't be to sure of that Alan. We still don't really have any idea as to what haplogroups comprised the Eastern Germanic tribes. There are a fair number of R1a-Z280+...CTS3402+ hits in Spain, France, and Italy to raise an eyebrow. Now whether these people comprise the descendants of Germanic peoples, Scythians, Balts, or Polish plumbers... time will only tell!

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    I have looked at correlation of Y-haplogroups in Norway. So my comment may not be true for the rest of Europe.
    For Norway T101 is correct, there is a negative correlation between R1b and R1a.
    R1a appears to have arrived first, R1b arrived later and partially replaced R1a.
    There is a strong correrlation between R1a and Q, and a weak correlation between I1 and J.

    But, on the autosomnal side there appears to be a correlation (in Eastern Norway) to R1b-U152.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    Yes, but a negative correlation!

    Mike the question should really be expanded to include (as far as Northern Europe is concerned) I1 (M253)... and for that matter I1-CTS6364, I1-L22, I1-Z58 etc. Then we could begin to explore what haplogroups arrived with what cultures, i.e. the Single Grave culture (which moved into Scandinavia via Dennmark), and the Battle-Axe Culture, (which moved into Scandinavia via the Baltic).

    Michal's theory on R1a-Z284 is quite plausible and is an excellent way of explaining the dearth of R1a-Z284 on the mainland of Europe.

    However R1a-Z284's scarcity can be more easily explained away by having the Germanic tribes expand out of the North Germanic plain with Jastorf and therefore any origins in Scandinavia can be left to myth!





    I wouldn't be to sure of that Alan. We still don't really have any idea as to what haplogroups comprised the Eastern Germanic tribes. There are a fair number of R1a-Z280+...CTS3402+ hits in Spain, France, and Italy to raise an eyebrow. Now whether these people comprise the descendants of Germanic peoples, Scythians, Balts, or Polish plumbers... time will only tell!
    There is R1a in east Tyrol that a recent study showed was only associated with the former Slavic areas and absent in the former Romance area despite the Germanic Bavarian population having spread as an adstrate over both areas. U106 was more uniformly spread and seems to correlate with the Germanic adstrate. This suggests that R1a was Slavic in Tyrol and not present at any significant level among the Bavarian settlers. The more I read about R1a the more it seems R1a was not present or very minor among many of the earlier Germanic migratory groups west.

    Maybe Anatole has a point about the apparent retreat of R1a from the Corded Ware period! It does raise of course the possibility that the R1a never made a huge impact. I have always thought that it is possible that, initially at least that, the more visible burials may be atypical and represent a high status minority of the population and give a misleading impression. It may have taken centuries for the elites to actually have the yDNA impact that the high status burials suggest. In the case of corded ware in the area between the Rhine and the Vistula they may not have had long enough at the top of the pile to multiply before the beaker people knocked them off their perch. Most of the post-beaker cultures in western, northern and central Europe have clear beaker roots too.

    I think the cranial type evidence for the decline of the beaker skull type in Unetice etc is pretty irrelevant as beaker influence was present for many centuries its clear that beaker people married out and would have taken on local characteristics within a couple of generations. The important thing is culturally these post-beaker cultures are clearly beaker-rooted.

    The beaker peoples really appear to have had something about them that made them infiltrate and expand in many different areas and environments that other cultures did not have. The outstanding characteristic of beaker people seems to have been their strong very expansive networking and organisation.
    Last edited by alan; 06-17-2013 at 10:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamus View Post
    I have looked at correlation of Y-haplogroups in Norway. So my comment may not be true for the rest of Europe.
    For Norway T101 is correct, there is a negative correlation between R1b and R1a.
    R1a appears to have arrived first, R1b arrived later and partially replaced R1a.
    There is a strong correrlation between R1a and Q, and a weak correlation between I1 and J.

    But, on the autosomnal side there appears to be a correlation (in Eastern Norway) to R1b-U152.
    That certainly fits the current archaeological ideas that are seeing a huge beaker influence on parts of Scandinavia that was not previously realised. This is discussed chapters in the Background to Beakers book. The beaker people must have been a very different group to the corded ware cultures. I am sure this phenomenon in the future Germanic area of a short period of a couple of centuries of corded ware cultures followed by beaker dominance also has something to do with the confusing aspects of pre-Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    Yes, but a negative correlation! ...
    There is something to be said to the fact that the higher any haplogroup frequency is, purely mathematically other haplogroup frequencies will have lower frequencies, but what is your support for your statement about a negative correlation of R1b and R1a, at least relative to R1b versus other haplogroups?

    Is R1a more or less correlated with R1b than is J1, or J2, or I1, or I2, or E? etc.? I don't know, but I would think that is the only way to show your assertion has meaning beyond pure math.

    Here is Eupedia's map of R1 (all) frequency in Europe.



    To prove a negative is always true, across all regions, is probably hard. This is the reason I set up the topic as where are there correlations? There may be few or none. That's okay.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 06-17-2013 at 02:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    There is something to be said to the fact that the higher any haplogroup frequency is, purely mathematically other haplogroup frequencies will have lower frequencies, but what is your support for your statement about a negative correlation of R1b and R1a, at least relative to R1b versus other haplogroups?

    Is R1a more or less correlated with R1b than is J1, or J2, or I1, or I2, or E? etc.? I don't know, but I would think that is the only way to show your assertion has meaning beyond pure math.

    Here is Eupedia's map of R1 (all) frequency in Europe.



    To prove a negative is always true, across all regions, is probably hard. This is the reason I set up the topic as where are there correlations? There may be few or none. That's okay.
    One thing that map seems to show is that generally R1a (eastern Europe) doesnt have as extreme dominance over non R1 groups as R1b (western Europe) does. The R1 map shows this but its actually an even stronger phenomenon than R1 map suggests because western Europe has very little R1a while R1b has a presence well above noise in many of the R1a-dominated areas. However, despite R1 there being bolstered by a significant amount of R1b, the R1a dominated areas still have a higher level of non R1 lineages. In general R1b seems to have been significantly more adept at growing at the expense of non-R1 groups than R1a had. I have no idea why that is.
    Last edited by alan; 06-17-2013 at 06:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    One thing that map seems to show is that generally R1a (eastern Europe) doesnt have as extreme dominance over non R1 groups as R1b (western Europe) does. The R1 map shows this but its actually an even stronger phenomenon than R1 map suggests because western Europe has very little R1a while R1b has a presence well above noise in many of the R1a-dominated areas. However, despite R1 there being bolstered by a significant amount of R1b, the R1a dominated areas still have a higher level of non R1 lineages. In general R1b seems to have been significantly more adept at growing at the expense of non-R1 groups than R1a had. I have no idea why that is.
    Actually I probably should say L11 dominance. Clearly M269* and L23* did not share in the phenomenon of achieving an exceptional level of dominance over other haplogroups.

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