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Thread: Pre-Columbian & Modern Native Americans in Eurogenes K36

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    Pre-Columbian & Modern Native Americans in Eurogenes K36

    1) Pre-Columbian samples:

















    2) Modern Native Americans:










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    I also found modern Mayans scoring few percent of "Malayan" admixture.

    The same "Malayan" admixture was present in two Botocudos (Bot15 & 17).

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    Some explanations from Davidski regarding admixtures in Eurogenes K36:

    An important point to keep in mind is not to take the ancestry proportions in Eurogenes K36 too literally. If you're, say, English, and you get an Iberian score of 12% this doesn't actually mean you have recent ancestry from Spain or Portugal. What it means is that 12% of your alleles look typical of the reference samples classified as Iberian, and this figure might only indicate recent Iberian admixture if it's clearly higher than those of other English users. But it calculates deep root similarities more than real recent ancestry.
    So I wonder why is Kennewick Man scoring European & African admixtures?

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    Those Botocudos were Polynesians (who are a mix of Taiwanese, South-East Asian and Oceanian):

    "Two ancient genomes reveal Polynesian ancestry among the indigenous Botocudos of Brazil":

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4370112/

    "Identification of Polynesian mtDNA in remains of Botocudo Amerindians from Brazil":

    http://www.pnas.org/content/110/16/6465.full

    Moreover, they were fully Polynesian (not mixed with Amerindians, Europeans, or Africans):

    "Botocudo Ancient Remains from Brazil":

    https://dna-explained.com/2015/07/02...s-from-brazil/

    The second interesting aspect of the genomic sequencing is that the remains did not show any evidence of admixture with European, Native American nor African individuals. More than 97% of their genome fits exactly with the Polynesian motifs. In other words, they appear to be first generation Polynesians. They carry Polynesian mitochondrial, Y and autosomal (nuclear) DNA, exclusively.


    http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...ands-of-miles/

    Recent DNA has shown trading based out of Polynesia extended as far as South America and the Caribbean, but there have been questions to the exact timing. European traders are often thought to have led the spread of commerce across the globe, enabled by early Spanish and British explorers—but the actual story may be a bit more complex.
    Also Polynesians from Easter Island have Amerindian admixture:

    "Oceanian Genetics - Beginners Guide and FAQ":

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-Guide-and-FAQ

    I am Polynesian however score some Native American. What does this mean?

    Polynesians from Easter Island and natives of South America met and mingled long before Europeans voyaged the Pacific. One study by Erik Thorsby suggests Native Americans likely arrived on Easter Island shortly after Polynesians. Other scientists’ state Pacific currents and Polynesian mastery of the waves make it more likely that the Polynesians were the voyagers. They may have sailed to South America, swapped goods for sweet potatoes and other items—and returned to their island with South American women. It is possible those Polynesians on Easter Island traveled back west to trade with east Polynesian countries. As you can see there are many possibilities.

    You may have had a Native American ancestor, but unless you score a good chunk of it on an autosomal test, it will be hard to confirm. The study by Thorsby stated that in the 27 living Easter Islanders who were tested, there was around 8% Native American in their genomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Some explanations from Davidski regarding admixtures in Eurogenes K36:



    So I wonder why is Kennewick Man scoring European & African admixtures?
    i have this 'theory' of sorts that however was tasked for the job to publically upload kennewick man's raw dna data to the internet, accidentally uploaded a raw dna data file of one of the colville tribe members who participated in the study instead.

    but of course, i have no proof for this, but if it were true, it would definitely explain the high euro admixture
    Last edited by crossover; 04-13-2017 at 06:39 AM.

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    ...Polynesians from Easter Island and natives of South America met and mingled long before Europeans voyaged the Pacific. One study by Erik Thorsby suggests Native Americans likely arrived on Easter Island shortly after Polynesians. Other scientists’ state Pacific currents and Polynesian mastery of the waves make it more likely that the Polynesians were the voyagers. They may have sailed to South America, swapped goods for sweet potatoes and other items—and returned to their island with South American women. It is possible those Polynesians on Easter Island traveled back west to trade with east Polynesian countries. As you can see there are many possibilities.

    You may have had a Native American ancestor, but unless you score a good chunk of it on an autosomal test, it will be hard to confirm. The study by Thorsby stated that in the 27 living Easter Islanders who were tested, there was around 8% Native American in their genomes.
    For those interested in the topic, I highly recommend this NOVA documentary: Great Human Odyssey (2016)

    1:09:44 - Crossing of the Bering Strait
    1:13:50 - Discovery of Clovis Culture Artifacts and the sequencing of the ancient Kennewick genome
    1:25:26 - Polynesian navigational technology and the Heyerdahl trade wind theory for Native Americans populating the Pacific
    1:39:58 - The settling of Easter-Island (honorable mentions of sweet potatoes and ancient Peruvian skull comparisons proving cross migrations)




    I watched this documentary about a month ago and gleamed with relish after reading down on the posts -- I've been thinking about higher resolution native-american clusters lately, it seems like one of the last frontiers with "consumer genetic companies" -- imagine how amazing it would be to have an Ojibwe or Chereokee cluster

    I was in Colombia late last year and was amazed by the amount of diverse physical phenotypes, particularly more so among the indigenous (non-mestizo/afro/european). As implied by these findings, I wouldn't be surprised if several different migrations of populations with different admixtures/affinities (polynesian, siberian, indo-chinese etc) plays a role in the range of physical appearance for native populations throughout the Americas. If you'll pardon my generalizations, from my 2 week stay in Colombia, I noticed some looked incredibly more South Indian (darker complexion, hairier than other counterparts), especially around Cartagena de Indias, while some further east in La Guajara have more typically East-Asian features (very straight hair, epicanthic fold). IMO environmental adaptation seems less likely to be the main factor, especially considering how relatively recent South America is said to have been inhabited ~11kya.
    Last edited by Angoliga; 04-13-2017 at 09:04 AM.
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    The Native Americans of North America will never submit to dna tests because exactly of what you and others have posted on this thread. Phenotype doesn’t make a culture and you are making huge aspirations on their genetics based solely on appearance. Dna doesn’t make anyone more or less Native American, their culture and tribal relations do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdolfoEsq View Post
    The Native Americans of North America will never submit to dna tests because exactly of what you and others have posted on this thread. Phenotype doesn’t make a culture and you are making huge aspirations on their genetics based solely on appearance. Dna doesn’t make anyone more or less Native American, their culture and tribal relations do.
    With all due respect, I think it hubris to assume that "The Native Americans of North America" are a monolithic group who are informed enough collectively to make such a decision. You are completely correct in that phenotype doesn't make a culture. As someone with Native American relatives coupled with many years of working professionally with Native American folks from several different tribes, I can assure you that cultures and values (and opinions) among the tribes can be vastly different. Maybe its just the Native folks in my circle, but I have found them just as curious about their deep origins as any other ethnic group. My crew are more than willing to have their DNA tested (as long as someone else is paying for it!) You are exactly right that DNA doesn't make anyone more or less Native American, their culture and tribal relations do. However, a lot of Native folks I know laugh and smirk at silly wannabe New Age European types who want to sweat, wear their hair in braids, and call themselves by an Indian name. And mixed-race kids who appear more European phenotypically are some of the most picked on people on the Rez. Some tribes take interest in their culture by outsiders as a compliment and others are insulted by it. Where I live, Arapahos are thrilled when outsiders are interested in learning their language. Shoshones on the other hand don't appreciate it at all.

    Some tribes are particularly upset about DNA testing because they feel betrayed by unethical researchers who told them they were testing for one thing and then proceeded to use the DNA tests to learn other things (such as the amount of inbreeding in the tribe.) For some tribes, their issue with DNA testing is the cavalier way researchers in the Western academic tradition handle ancient remains. Still other tribes welcome DNA testing as a way to confirm the ancientness of their residence in a certain area.

    Monolithic Native people are not. You can get yourself in lots of trouble by assuming that. Just saying...
    Last edited by Grossvater; 01-22-2020 at 04:26 PM.

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    True some tribes havenít objected but that still doesnít mean they accept the facts of their ancestry itís up to them to decide what they want to accept. The problem I see, and my own test is that Iím according to 23&me 28% Native American. What if other Latinos like me or my cousin who has up to 50% Native American, decide we need to be accepted as tribal members even though we have not grown up in their culture? There are a lot of Latinos who gave deep roots in the southern USA, that have Native American ancestry, but arenít tribal meme era. Where does the line get drawn as to who is or isnít?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdolfoEsq View Post
    True some tribes havenít objected but that still doesnít mean they accept the facts of their ancestry itís up to them to decide what they want to accept. The problem I see, and my own test is that Iím according to 23&me 28% Native American. What if other Latinos like me or my cousin who has up to 50% Native American, decide we need to be accepted as tribal members even though we have not grown up in their culture? There are a lot of Latinos who gave deep roots in the southern USA, that have Native American ancestry, but arenít tribal meme era. Where does the line get drawn as to who is or isnít?
    I completely understand your dilemma here. My wife is about the same amount Native American DNA-wise as you with deep maternal roots in Nuevo Leon & Tamaulipas. It is a fact that many Native American people north of the Rio Grande don't want to accept that many Latinos have as much or more genuine Native American ancestry as they do. I ascribe some of it to the vast blind spot of knowledge that USA folk have regarding the history and ethnic makeup of our neighbors to the south. It galls the tarnation out of me to be told by my Native American friends that Mexicans come from a separate "race."

    Tribal governments are political constructs and are based on historic treaty relationships between the federal government and groups of Native Americans. The membership of the tribes do not reflect real-life genetics very accurately. I could tell you of case after case of Native families around here that even in historic times have recorded admixture from other tribes and Europeans. One gal I know has full blood-quantum status legally but genetically has a fair share of European DNA. These days, everyone wants to be Native American. Covetous eyes are cast on the profits from Indian casinos and access to the Indian Health Service also appeals to some.

    I know of a tribe down in Texas that is state-recognized that has abandoned the blood quantum system for membership. They base eligibility for enrollment on descent. If you have at least one proven Native American ancestor from their tribe, then you're golden. For Latinos, finding proof that an ancestor was part of a historic Indian group can sometimes be difficult. I have traced my wife's maternal grandfather's line (Native American Q-M3 Y-DNA and all) back to 1739. The Spanish Catholic priests kept good records in that part of Nuevo Leon and record my wife's earliest ancestor in that line as an "yndio." But the for the life of me, I haven't been able to figure out what Native group he was culturally. Since most Mexicans are what they used to call "mestizos," and have been hispanized for so long culturally, it can be very difficult or impossible to determine what group they came from. And even if you can figure it out, they lived too far south of the Rio Grande to have any sort of historic relationship with the US government or even the Republic of Texas during it's heyday.

    There is a lot more work to be done and many more Native American DNA tests to be given before we get a more finely detailed picture of the Native American DNA world. They are making progress, though. I have recently learned that my wife's mitochondrial DNA seems to be associated with the Zapotec people of southern Mexico. But I was also told that there are only 18 samples of her Native American haplogroup and that she has a mutation never seen before in any of the other samples. So we don't know if she represents thousands of people who share that mutation making up a full-blown branch of her haplogroup or if she is the only one with that particular mutation.

    Lot's to be learned still. If you're interested in enrollment in a federally recognized American Indian Tribe, you'd better have a recent paper-trail NA ancestor. DNA isn't going to be of much help to you.
    Last edited by Grossvater; 01-22-2020 at 10:21 PM.

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