Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 66

Thread: J1 in Italy

  1. #1
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,093
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man

    J1 in Italy

    This thread is meant to foment discussion on Italian J1 and to detail the current state of knowledge on J1 in the Italian peninsula, so if you have more information on Italian J1, this is the place to talk about it!

    Personally, I've recently decided to take a closer look at J1 in Italy, the following is not meant to be an exhaustive description of J1 in Italy but rather, a concise set of observations on J1 in the Italian peninsula. First off, J1 is most common in Southern and South-Central Italy, its frequency collapses somewhat brutally north of Molise, in turn it is more common in the southwestern parts of Italy (Campania, Calabria and Sicily). In Sicily, there are two J1 "hotspots", so to speak, one around the Palermo and Trapani provinces and another one in the east of the island.

    Most of the J1 in Italy (especially in Sicily) is under YSC76, there's a certain amount of diversity even at this level though, at least two branches can be labeled Phoenician at this stage:


    • ZS6057, Palermo (matches in Lebanon and Aleppo).

    • FGC8216 (including FGC8195), Palermo (matches a Lebanese "Sahely", this name literally means "from the coast" in Arabic), also found in individuals from Catania and Potenza.


    Then we have at least one Jewish branch under YSC76 (M9119) found in an individual from Palermo as well as a Sicilian individual belonging to a branch under YSC76 which is probably Arabian in origin (FGC8224>FGC8223>BY66>BY86>ZS1585).

    A couple of samples belong to FGC1723 (including FGC4422), which is a typically Arabian marker (not under YSC76), this seems restricted to Enna and Messina however.

    The other branches of J1 have a more widespread distribution throughout Italy, at least three other markers are likely to be Phoenician or Levantine in origin, this includes:


    • L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon).

    • Z18292>ZS2589(>ZS2566) which is found in Calabria, Campania (Salerno again) and Frosinone, these samples have matches from the Balearic islands, Seville, Tunisia, Israel and Lebanon.

    • FGC4745 which is found in Campania (Salerno and Avellino), several Palestinian Christians belong to a branch of FGC4745.


    There are also a few typically Jewish lineages, such as ZS10589 (under PF7263) and ZS227 (most of it is under Z18271) found a little bit all over the place, namely in Calabria, in Campania and in Palermo, some of this seems to be fairly recent in origin however I could be wrong on this (this could also count for M9119, the Jewish branch under YSC76 mentioned above).

    While I am mainly talking about clusters which can tentatively assigned to a specific origin, this largely underestimates the diversity of J1 in Italy, in fact there are several Italian individuals assigned to basal branches of YSC234 (ZS241* and L858*).

    Some cases are more puzzling, especially in Sicily where we find Z2223 (around Corleone) and Z1828* (around Palermo). There also is a decent amount of lineages that seem to be Armenian, Syrian or Mesopotamian in origin, including Z1842>ZS3089 (found in Palermo) and CTS1460 (found in Messina and Syracuse) though the former (ZS3089) is unlikely to be Armenian IMO.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 04-17-2017 at 11:02 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  2. The Following 30 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     Abd.H (04-17-2017),  Akra20m (04-17-2017),  Angoliga (04-18-2017),  Arame (04-18-2017),  Awale (04-17-2017),  Batroun (03-04-2018),  bryan (05-05-2017),  Camulogčne Rix (04-18-2017),  Cascio (04-18-2017),  fished (04-19-2017),  Gravetto-Danubian (04-17-2017),  jayvee (04-17-2017),  Kelmendasi (06-24-2019),  Lank (05-22-2017),  Massam (04-17-2017),  Megalophias (04-17-2017),  Observer (04-18-2017),  Passa (05-22-2017),  Power77 (05-05-2017),  Pribislav (04-18-2017),  Principe (04-30-2017),  R.Rocca (04-18-2017),  Radboud (04-18-2017),  RCO (04-17-2017),  Seabass (06-22-2019),  Shamash (04-22-2017),  Sikeliot (04-30-2017),  Táltos (04-18-2017),  wandering_amorite (04-18-2017),  Yaroslav (05-30-2017)

  3. #2
    Banned
    Posts
    380
    Sex
    Location
    Caen
    Ethnicity
    81% FRA+13% ITA+6% SPA
    Nationality
    French
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b U152 Z56 BY3538
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a1, H13a1a1

    France New Caledonia Italy Spain Luxembourg Switzerland
    J1, that mafiosi Haplogroup.

  4. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Il Papŕ For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-17-2017),  Camulogčne Rix (04-18-2017),  Ilgar (09-01-2019),  Power77 (05-05-2017),  Yaroslav (05-30-2017)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    799
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1ao1

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    Central Mediterranean movements can be complex in time and space, so what kind of lineages belonged to what ethnohistorical groups in the past can be a tricky question, specially when they are shared between different groups. The Sardinian clusters studied by Paolo Francalacci are the most well researched and sampled J1's from Italy in terms of SNP resolution, that should be the model for the other regions.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

  6. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to RCO For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-17-2017),  Angoliga (04-18-2017),  Awale (04-23-2017),  Power77 (05-05-2017),  Táltos (04-18-2017),  Yaroslav (05-30-2017)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,604
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    This thread is meant to foment discussion on Italian J1 and to detail the current state of knowledge on J1 in the Italian peninsula, so if you have more information on Italian J1, this is the place to talk about it!

    Personally, I've recently decided to take a closer look at J1 in Italy, the following is not meant to be an exhaustive description of J1 in Italy but rather, a concise set of observations on J1 in the Italian peninsula. First off, J1 is most common in Southern and South-Central Italy, its frequency collapses somewhat brutally north of Molise, in turn it is more common in the southwestern parts of Italy (Campania, Calabria and Sicily). In Sicily, there are two J1 "hotspots", so to speak, one around the Palermo and Trapani provinces and another one in the east of the island.

    Most of the J1 in Italy (especially in Sicily) is under YSC76, there's a certain amount of diversity even at this level though, at least two branches can be labeled Phoenician at this stage:


    • ZS6057, Palermo (matches in Lebanon and Aleppo).

    • FGC8216 (including FGC8195), Palermo (matches a Lebanese "Sahely", this name literally means "from the coast" in Arabic), also found in individuals from Catania and Potenza.


    Then we have at least one Jewish branch under YSC76 (M9119) found in an individual from Palermo as well as a Sicilian individual belonging to a branch under YSC76 which is probably Arabian in origin (FGC8224>FGC8223>BY66>BY86>ZS1585).

    A couple of samples belong to FGC1723 (including FGC4422), which is a typically Arabian marker (not under YSC76), this seems restricted to Enna and Messina however.

    The other branches of J1 have a more widespread distribution throughout Italy, at least three other markers are likely to be Phoenician or Levantine in origin, this includes:


    • L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon).

    • Z18292>ZS2589(>ZS2566) which is found in Calabria, Campania (Salerno again) and Frosinone, these samples have matches from the Balearic islands, Seville, Tunisia, Israel and Lebanon.

    • FGC4745 which is found in Campania (Salerno and Avellino), several Palestinian Christians belong to a branch of FGC4745.


    There are also a few typically Jewish lineages, such as ZS10589 (under PF7263) and ZS227 (most of it is under Z18271) found a little bit all over the place, namely in Calabria, in Campania and in Palermo, some of this seems to be fairly recent in origin however I could be wrong on this (this could also count for M9119, the Jewish branch under YSC76 mentioned above).

    While I am mainly talking about clusters which can tentatively assigned to a specific origin, this largely underestimates the diversity of J1 in Italy, in fact there are several Italian individuals assigned to basal branches of YSC234 (ZS241* and L858*).

    Some cases are more puzzling, especially in Sicily where we find Z2223 (around Corleone) and Z1828* (around Palermo). There also is a decent amount of lineages that seem to be Armenian, Syrian or Mesopotamian in origin, including Z1842>ZS3089 (found in Palermo) and CTS1460 (found in Messina and Syracuse) though the former (ZS3089) is unlikely to be Armenian IMO.
    Great thread & summary. I know the picture is more complex than we can imagine and impossible to clear up with so few samples, but some of the increased frequency in Western Sicily may also be due to the "Saracen" Arab/Berber invasion. The western half of the island was known to have the stronger Islamic presence whereas the eastern half remained mostly Christian throughout the occupation.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 04-18-2017 at 01:11 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  8. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-18-2017),  Awale (04-23-2017),  Power77 (05-05-2017),  RCO (04-18-2017),  Sikeliot (04-30-2017),  Táltos (04-20-2017)

  9. #5
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,093
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Great thread & summary. I know the picture is more complex than we can imagine and impossible to clear up with so few samples, but some of the increased frequency in Western Sicily may also be due to the "Saracen" Arab/Berber invasion. The western half of the island was known to have the stronger Islamic presence whereas the eastern half remained mostly Christian throughout the occupation.
    Well the strange thing is that none of the J1 lineages from the western parts of Sicily belong to Arabian branches so far, rather, the Arabian branches are found either in the eastern parts of Sicily or on the mainland (FGC4745, for example, could potentially be Arabian, though this is less likely than a Levantine origin). I guess this could be attributed to people moving around, but still, it's pretty strange. Of course, this might well change in the future.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  10. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     Awale (04-23-2017),  Power77 (05-05-2017),  R.Rocca (04-19-2017),  Shamash (04-22-2017),  Táltos (04-20-2017),  vettor (04-22-2017)

  11. #6
    Administrator
    Posts
    1,880
    Sex
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-BZ68
    mtDNA (M)
    H23

    Albania Italy Two Sicilies Wales Lithuania Poland Slovakia
    Great thread Agamemnon!

    In looking at this project the men who are also just J-ZS1711 like my cousin are only from Saudi Arabia, and Qatar. Again Italian results look pretty scarce for this subclade. https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    My cousin is negative for the L823, FGC12309, ZS1766, ZS5891, PF7267, ZS1706. Well negative for everything after the ZS1711. Would I be correct in thinking there are no other SNPs downstream of J-ZS1711 available to test that are not in the J1-M267 SNP Pack?

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Táltos For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-23-2017),  Power77 (05-05-2017)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    66
    Sex
    Location
    United States
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-PF4867
    mtDNA (M)
    H1-am

    United States of America Italy Ireland Germany Palatinate United Kingdom France
    Quote Originally Posted by Táltos View Post
    Great thread Agamemnon!

    In looking at this project the men who are also just J-ZS1711 like my cousin are only from Saudi Arabia, and Qatar. Again Italian results look pretty scarce for this subclade. https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    My cousin is negative for the L823, FGC12309, ZS1766, ZS5891, PF7267, ZS1706. Well negative for everything after the ZS1711. Would I be correct in thinking there are no other SNPs downstream of J-ZS1711 available to test that are not in the J1-M267 SNP Pack?
    More testing needed for Italy.
    Last edited by Pegasusphm1; 04-30-2017 at 12:49 AM.

  14. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Pegasusphm1 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-29-2017),  Power77 (05-05-2017),  Principe (04-30-2017),  Táltos (05-01-2017)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    242
    Sex
    Nationality
    American

    United States of America Italy
    Very interesting thread. Might you do a similar breakdown of branches of J2a in South Italy in the future?

  16. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to fished For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-01-2017),  Power77 (05-05-2017),  Principe (04-30-2017),  Sikeliot (04-30-2017)

  17. #9
    Banned
    Posts
    4,342
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United States of America
    I am going to offer my input on where some of these might have come from, based on geography, history, and my other knowledge. I would love to see an analysis of J2 across southern Italy also, because the west of Sicily lacks many of the subclades of J2 common to the Balkans, which might suggest Levantine J2 is prevalent there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    In Sicily, there are two J1 "hotspots", so to speak, one around the Palermo and Trapani provinces and another one in the east of the island.
    The other hot spot is around Ragusa, in the southeast of the island. I do not have any explanation for why this is a hot spot, but Ragusa was the first part of eastern Sicily for which the Byzantines lost control to Arabs and Berbers. So it makes sense that it would be higher there, and autosomal DNA bears this out when comparing Ragusa to neighboring Syracuse (where, I believe, J1 is close to nonexistent).

    Most of the J1 in Italy (especially in Sicily) is under YSC76, there's a certain amount of diversity even at this level though, at least two branches can be labeled Phoenician at this stage:


    • ZS6057, Palermo (matches in Lebanon and Aleppo).
    • FGC8216 (including FGC8195), Palermo (matches a Lebanese "Sahely", this name literally means "from the coast" in Arabic), also found in individuals from Catania and Potenza.
    These could be Phoenician, or they could be a subclade originally from Arabia that established itself both in Lebanon and in Sicily during the Arab conquests of both regions. Remember that Sicily and Lebanon were Arabized at roughly the same time. I would go with Phoenician, though.

    Then we have at least one Jewish branch under YSC76 (M9119) found in an individual from Palermo as well as a Sicilian individual belonging to a branch under YSC76 which is probably Arabian in origin (FGC8224>FGC8223>BY66>BY86>ZS1585).

    A couple of samples belong to FGC1723 (including FGC4422), which is a typically Arabian marker (not under YSC76), this seems restricted to Enna and Messina however.
    Your conclusions here make sense. There is a part of Messina province that was heavily Arabized (towns such as Alcara Li Fusi, Naso, Capo D'Orlando, etc.). The northern coast of Messina province was more Arabized than the eastern coast of the island, which remained under Byzantine control during most, if not all of, the Arab conquest. Enna has mostly been populated due to migrations inward from the eastern coast.

    The other branches of J1 have a more widespread distribution throughout Italy, at least three other markers are likely to be Phoenician or Levantine in origin, this includes:


    • L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon).

    • Z18292>ZS2589(>ZS2566) which is found in Calabria, Campania (Salerno again) and Frosinone, these samples have matches from the Balearic islands, Seville, Tunisia, Israel and Lebanon.

    • FGC4745 which is found in Campania (Salerno and Avellino), several Palestinian Christians belong to a branch of FGC4745.
    The one found in Balearic islands, Tunisia, Lebanon, Spain, and so on could be Carthaginian. But it appears that most of the J1 in Italy does go back to the Levant.

    There are also a few typically Jewish lineages, such as ZS10589 (under PF7263) and ZS227 (most of it is under Z18271) found a little bit all over the place, namely in Calabria, in Campania and in Palermo, some of this seems to be fairly recent in origin however I could be wrong on this (this could also count for M9119, the Jewish branch under YSC76 mentioned above).
    All of these areas (Calabria, Palermo, etc.) once had a large Jewish population prior to the Spanish Inquisition. While many people left and headed eastward and southward, it makes sense many Jews became Christian, at least publicly.


    Some cases are more puzzling, especially in Sicily where we find Z2223 (around Corleone) and Z1828* (around Palermo). There also is a decent amount of lineages that seem to be Armenian, Syrian or Mesopotamian in origin, including Z1842>ZS3089 (found in Palermo) and CTS1460 (found in Messina and Syracuse) though the former (ZS3089) is unlikely to be Armenian IMO.
    Mesopotamian or Armenian subclades around western Sicily could be from the Elymians, an Anatolian people who are believed to be related to Hittites and Trojans. The only explanation in eastern Sicily would either be prehistoric Near Eastern influence, or migration from west to east across the island. However, most migration across Sicily was east to west.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 04-30-2017 at 10:22 PM.

  18. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Sikeliot For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-01-2017),  Gravetto-Danubian (04-30-2017),  Nibelung (04-30-2017),  Power77 (05-05-2017),  Principe (04-30-2017)

  19. #10
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,132
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Italian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-Z482>Y15222
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2b5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-Z36>Y156527

    Italy Italy Sicily Italy Two Sicilies Vatican Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by fished View Post
    Very interesting thread. Might you do a similar breakdown of branches of J2a in South Italy in the future?
    I will make one for Southern Italy, I have done research for J2 in Italy and even presented at Eupedia, I will do a more specific thread for J2a, I will also include J2b.

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Principe For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-01-2017),  fished (05-01-2017),  Power77 (05-05-2017)

Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. R1a in Italy
    By Morges in forum R
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 06-09-2018, 10:39 PM
  2. Buffalo in Italy
    By vettor in forum Fauna
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-05-2016, 08:11 PM
  3. L21 in Italy
    By rms2 in forum R1b-L21
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 03-12-2015, 04:52 AM
  4. L2 scarcity in Italy
    By Orobicus in forum L2
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 08-11-2014, 09:57 PM
  5. LGM in Italy ~19,500 YBP for J1c
    By Little bit in forum J
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-19-2014, 01:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •