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Thread: J2 in Southern Italy

  1. #1
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    J2 in Southern Italy

    This thread is made for the purpose of discussing J2 in Southern Italy, the following regions to be covered Sicily, Calabria, Basilicata, Puglia, Campania, Molise and Abruzzo, with 1 exception Frosinone in Lazio.

    One important thing to keep in mind, this is not a definite 100% accurate portrayal since sample size is no larger than 500, but at the same time it is very important as we can start to see trends for specific regions.

    In terms of origin, as J2 has many branches there is not 1 source for all this J2 in Southern Italy, it will be the mixture of many sources ranging from Bronze Age to Medieval migrations from various different areas, I will present the information and others can speculate origins for specific clades.

    In my research J2a is much more dominate than J2b in the South, and I found J2 as the most common haplogroup in the following Provinces and regions, Salerno (Campania), Basilicata (whole), Puglia (whole), Siracusa (Sicily), Ragusa (Sicily), Catania (Sicily), and Messina (Sicily).

    In terms of J2a and J2b split its roughly 88% J2a and 12% J2b.

    Almost all of J2b is J2b>L283>Z600>Z597>Z638, it is found in almost in the entire South except Southern Sicily (Agrigento and Caltanissetta,) the region of Basilicata and Puglia (except the Salento region of Lecce, which speaks a Griko language), and Salerno and Avellino in Campania. It seems to peak in Catania/Messina/Reggio Calabria and has another hotspot around Benevento/Molise/Abruzzo/Lazio.

    The remaining J2b is under the J2b-M205 subclade, all of it is found in Sicily, in Trapani, Palermo, Agrigento and Enna.

    I will continuing posting for J2a in the next Post.

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    I am going to add my input as we go. Hope this is helpful. Thank you for this thread, I have wanted it for a while!

    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    In my research J2a is much more dominate than J2b in the South, and I found J2 as the most common haplogroup in the following Provinces and regions, Salerno (Campania), Basilicata (whole), Puglia (whole), Siracusa (Sicily), Ragusa (Sicily), Catania (Sicily), and Messina (Sicily).
    Much of the J2a in these regions is likely from the Bronze Age. Once you remove the small Greek input from Catania and Messina, these regions are perhaps the most "purely" Sicilian in the sense of having no Norman input of any significance, limited Italian resettlement from any region other than Calabria which is close to identical to them culturally/linguistically/genetically to begin with, and limited North African input. So most J2 in NE Sicily has probably been there since prehistoric times and is very ancient.

    Almost all of J2b is J2b>L283>Z600>Z597>Z638, it is found in almost in the entire South except Southern Sicily (Agrigento and Caltanissetta,) the region of Basilicata and Puglia (except the Salento region of Lecce, which speaks a Griko language), and Salerno and Avellino in Campania. It seems to peak in Catania/Messina/Reggio Calabria and has another hotspot around Benevento/Molise/Abruzzo/Lazio.
    This J2b subclade is almost surely Greek or even possibly Illyrian, though I would not discount its presence in Italy even further back, due to its presence in Central-South Italy where Greek settlement was less. Its lack of presence in Agrigento and Caltanissetta is that these regions were the least Hellenized on the entire island, and that the "Greeks" in these regions were mostly Hellenized Sicilians from the east coast. Agrigento and Caltanissetta actually have a lot of very old Bronze Age haplogroups such as G, from the Caucasus, as well as some North African subclades of different haplogroups... they were part of a different sphere of influence than eastern Sicily and have a lot more in common with Malta.

    The remaining J2b is under the J2b-M205 subclade, all of it is found in Sicily, in Trapani, Palermo, Agrigento and Enna.
    Where does this subclade peak outside of Italy?

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    Now for J2a, the two most common branches come under J2a-L558 and J-L24 lineages, as there will be much more break down.

    To start, the pre J2a-L558 lineages under J2a-Z2227 which include J2a-M47 and J2a-FGC15901.

    J2a-M47 seems to be rare and is only found in Salerno with 3 samples.

    J2a-FGC15901 seems to be somewhat more common with 9, with three being in Catania/Messina, two in Calabria (Cosenza and Catanzaro), 2 in Abruzzo (Chieti) and 1 in Molise (Isernia).

    Now to J2a-L588 lineages.

    J2a-Y8378 is found in only person in Agrigento.

    J2a-M319, is a more common J2a in Southern Italy, with its two peaks being in Sicily and Lecce (Salento, Griko speakers, it is the most common J2a lineage), it is also found in Calabria (Cosenza), Foggia (Puglia) and Salerno (Campania) where the individual has tested J2a-S18115.

    For J2a-M67 lineages there is much to cover, I will split it into J2a-Z467, J2a-Z500 and J2a-Z7671.

    For J2a-Z467 there is a split between J2a-S25258 and J2a-L210 lineages, J2a-S25258 is slightly more common than J2a-L210 lineages. J2a-S25258 again can be further split into J2a-S21160 which is rare and is only found in Potenza (Basilicata) and both Benevento and Napoli (Campania), and the J2a-SK1336 lineage which is as common as J2a-M319 in the South. J2a-SK1336 is more strongly found in Sicily and Calabria, Catania, Palermo and Cosenza. It also is found in Basilicata (both Potenza and Matera), Puglia (Taranto), Campania (Napoli) and Lazio (Frosinone).

    As for J2a-L210, it can be split between J2a-L210 (xZ489) and J2a-Y15222 (which I belong to). They seem to be split evenly in terms of frequency, J2a-L210 (xZ489) is found in Sicily and Campania (Messina, Caltanissetta, Ragusa and Napoli). The other J2a-Z482>Y15222 is found in Basilicata (Matera), Puglia (Bari), Calabria (Cosenza) and Sicily (Trapani, Palermo, Agrigento, and Caltanissetta).

    J2a-Z500 lineages seem to be the common lineages of J2a-M67 in Southern Italy, unfortunately not many have tested further, though the vast majority seem to be under J2a-M92, there is one J2a-Z515 found in Caserta (Campania), so far the ones who tested further seem to be under J2a-CTS2906 currently only in Catania (Sicily) and Caserta (Campania). For J2a-M92 generally its highest frequency is in Campania (all evenly), the second highest is in Puglia (Taranto, Bari and Lecce), it is also the second most common J2a in the Griko speakers of Salento (Lecce), then Sicily would be the next common (a peak in Catania and Messina) and also found in Trapani, Palermo and Agrigento, and finally in Calabria with Cosenza and Reggio.

    J2a-Z7671 is the least common of the J2a-M67 lineages, all are under J2a-CTS900 lineages, with Sicily having the most (only in Agrigento and Trapani), Basilicata (Potenza) he is under the J2a-CTS3261 lineage, Campania (Napoli) and Calabria (Reggio).

    The third post will cover the remainder of J2a in Southern Italy.

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    What historical movements or regions might be the source of some of the J2 subclades above?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I am going to add my input as we go. Hope this is helpful. Thank you for this thread, I have wanted it for a while!



    Much of the J2a in these regions is likely from the Bronze Age. Once you remove the small Greek input from Catania and Messina, these regions are perhaps the most "purely" Sicilian in the sense of having no Norman input of any significance, limited Italian resettlement from any region other than Calabria which is close to identical to them culturally/linguistically/genetically to begin with, and limited North African input. So most J2 in NE Sicily has probably been there since prehistoric times and is very ancient.



    This J2b subclade is almost surely Greek or even possibly Illyrian, though I would not discount its presence in Italy even further back, due to its presence in Central-South Italy where Greek settlement was less. Its lack of presence in Agrigento and Caltanissetta is that these regions were the least Hellenized on the entire island, and that the "Greeks" in these regions were mostly Hellenized Sicilians from the east coast. Agrigento and Caltanissetta actually have a lot of very old Bronze Age haplogroups such as G, from the Caucasus, as well as some North African subclades of different haplogroups... they were part of a different sphere of influence than eastern Sicily and have a lot more in common with Malta.



    Where does this subclade peak outside of Italy?
    My pleasure, in terms of J2a it really depends, you have to look at specific subclades to determine what came in where and when, for me personally J2a-SK1336, J2a-FGC15901, and J2a-M319 seem to indicate a Greek origin just by looking at where they are found, some hard to fully to say, some J2a will be Eastern Med (Jewish, Phoenician and Syrian) and others will be bronze age pre Italic, as well as some might even be Italic the best bet is J2a-L70.

    To answer for J2b-L283 in Southern Italy I think it will be a split between many things and only a Yfull could fully determine the origin, I think some it will have came in the spread of Italic migrations, others will be Greek and others will be Illyrian.

    The J2b-M205 lineages are not further tested it peaks both in the Middle East and the Balkans, it all depends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    What historical movements or regions might be the source of some of the J2 subclades above?
    I am going to continue posting on the subject tomorrow, once I add the rest of J2, I will write my opinions on the movements and who brought what and when.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    I am going to continue posting on the subject tomorrow, once I add the rest of J2, I will write my opinions on the movements and who brought what and when.
    That will be very interesting and I look forward to it. I am especially interested to find out if a lot of the J2 in Palermo/Agrigento is directly from the Levant, rather than mediated through the Balkans.

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    J2a here with direct paternal line roots from the Calabria region of Italy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Where does this subclade peak outside of Italy?
    I would say in Western Balkans, in Serbian DNA Project J2b-M205 is currently 63/1283=4,91%. All of them belong to subclade Y22059.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    I would say in Western Balkans, in Serbian DNA Project J2b-M205 is currently 63/1283=4,91%. All of them belong to subclade Y22059.
    According to this study J2b1-M205 is 5.9% in Cyprus and apparently quite frequent also in the southern Levant:
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.../fulltext.html

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