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Thread: J2 in Southern Italy

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    According to this study J2b1-M205 is 5.9% in Cyprus and apparently quite frequent also in the southern Levant:
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.../fulltext.html
    This is a more likely place of origin for a subclade found solely in western Sicily, rather than Serbia IMO.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    According to this study J2b1-M205 is 5.9% in Cyprus and apparently quite frequent also in the southern Levant:
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.../fulltext.html
    One of the EBA samples from 'Ayn Ghazal, I1730, was J2b1. So I definitely think this marker was more common in the Levant by the past.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    One of the EBA samples from 'Ayn Ghazal, I1730, was J2b1. So I definitely think this marker was more common in the Levant by the past.
    So in the context of Trapani, Palermo, and Agrigento, would you attribute it to Phoenicians?

    The most organized way of sorting through this thread is to list the subclades, the part of Italy they occur, and then propose an origin based on where they are found outside of Italy today.

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  7. #14
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    However relevant, there was Selinunte in modern Trapani, and the colony's territory extended as far as the Platani.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelung View Post
    However relevant, there was Selinunte in modern Trapani, and the colony's territory extended as far as the Platani.
    I think E1b1b is a better marker of Greek ancestry than J2. South Italy is higher in J2 than Greece is, and has a more diverse range of subclades.

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    So in the context of Trapani, Palermo, and Agrigento, would you attribute it to Phoenicians?

    The most organized way of sorting through this thread is to list the subclades, the part of Italy they occur, and then propose an origin based on where they are found outside of Italy today.
    While there's a fair chance J2b1-M205 might've arrived with the Phoenicians, I would not necessarily vouch for such an association without a clearer picture of this marker's phylogeny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I think E1b1b is a better marker of Greek ancestry than J2. South Italy is higher in J2 than Greece is, and has a more diverse range of subclades.
    E-V13? Perhaps... Other branches of E-M35.1? Unlikely, J2a-M319 and J2a-M92 remain more convincing contenders.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 05-01-2017 at 07:01 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    While there's a fair chance J2b1-M205 might've arrived with the Phoenicians, I would not necessarily vouch for such an association without a clearer picture of this marker's phylogeny.
    According to this map and others, there is a J2 hot spot right near Palermo and nearby towns (Carini, Capaci, etc) and I wonder if this is attributable to Phoenicians. I would be really interested in seeing the subclades. I have some ancestry in this area.


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  17. #19
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    I would advise against taking material from "The Genetic Atlas" too seriously.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I would advise against taking material from "The Genetic Atlas" too seriously.
    Is it a biased source?

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